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What you're telling me is that music is about to stop and we're going to be left holding the biggest bag of odorous excrement ever assembled in the history of gutless 1974198792972000 and whatever we want to call this, it's all just the same thing over and over. We can't help ourselves. I say when we sell, hey. OK, I say when we sell. All right, welcome back to the last trade. We got a full house in here this week. We have five of us, so we have Michael Tanguma and Brian Cabela's, my Co host. We have Chase Palmieri from Acropolis and we have Tim Kosman from the Bitcoin Treasuries podcast. Chase and Tim, thanks for joining us this week. How are you guys doing? Doing great. Thanks for having us. Awesome. Well, it's an exciting week. We're going to be kicking off for the last trade officially next week, a new format. So we'll tease it out a little bit this week. And then we'll get into more of the topics or interviews that we want to discuss with Chase and Tim. Maybe to start from the very top in a historic week. President Donald Trump took the office back on Monday. His inauguration speech was focused, I'd say, on the future of America and what he described as the golden age. And so naturally, being a Bitcoin podcast, we'll be discussing today about the Orange Age for America. So, gentlemen, I want to hear what your thoughts are just over the course of the past week. Chase or Tim, maybe I'll kick it over to you. Just being the guest today. How, you know, how have things gone this week? Are they kind of in line with your expectations? Are you excited about what the Trump administration will be doing for the Bitcoin space and in the United States more broadly? I'll go first, Tim. It was good to see Trump and the administration fulfill at least one of their initial campaign promises to the Bitcoin community and pardoning Ross Holberg. So that is, I would say good signal that perhaps the larger conversation that has been surrounding the strategic Bitcoin Reserve that maybe that will ultimately come to fruition as well. And and certainly the betting odds on Polymarket are suggesting that the likelihood of that is increasing day by day here. So, you know, maybe this was the wrong expectation. I was kind of hoping to see an executive order in the first couple of days, but Bitcoiners tend to have a low time preference. And I think we're going to see a lot more business friendly regulation, the repeal of SAB 121, ultimately a strategic Bitcoin reserve. And so, yeah, I think all previous headwinds are now tailwinds. Yeah, I had a similar response. I was, you know, maybe from all of the social media, a little too expectant of something like literally on Day 0. And of course, the expectations of something in the inaugural address, like saying anything about Bitcoin or digital assets that that's it's not the right audience, it's not the right time. So that made sense. But, you know, now we're sitting here with Senator Cynthia Lummis chairing as of this morning, the new Digital Assets Subcommittee, Banking Committee in the Senate. And so we really have, from my view, three things in play. We have executive Congress and the state level. And I was listening to his spaces this morning. And just interesting to kind of wrap it up with the fact that like Texas is the 8th largest economy in the world, California is the 5th largest. So the fact that you have legislation introduced in 11 states so far and soon to be probably, you know, many more is just very encouraging in addition to everything on the executive and legislative fronts. Yeah, I I totally agree with that, Sam. I think it's being under talked about the amount of work being done at the state level for strategic Bitcoin reserves. But just reflecting on the past week, I mean, it's been a, it's been a crazy week, guys like it. It's been legitimately insane in the sense that, you know, we were all excited for the inauguration on Monday, but what we didn't expect was Trump to launch his own meme coin last Friday night. That took me by surprise at least. I don't know if you guys were expecting that, but I did not really see that one coming, particularly given he's already launched some other altcoin, world financial, world liberty financial, whatever it's called. And so this is actually his, his team. So let's, let's not, let's put it towards his team, not him. Donald Trump is not, you know, on soul scan launching these coins, but his team has now launched 2 altcoins and actually three, if you want to count Melania's, which came on Sunday. And it was just fascinating to watch play out because from my perspective, like it's, it's indicative of, of where sort of broader crypto is today, generally speaking, in the sense that, you know, if you, if you rewind like 5-7 years ago, the broader crypto space was very much about like decentralized forms of utility and pioneering tech and all this blockchain infrastructure that was going to be super critical for all these applications in the future. They've completely just given up on that narrative. And it's, it's basically just gambling and meme coin speculation is, is the primary driver of the crypto markets, X Bitcoin and X stable coins. And so I think like Trump president, you know, the incoming president of the United States doing this a few days before his inauguration is just like this microcosm of where crypto is today and sort of lost in its, its narrative battle that it's been waging sort of adjacent to Bitcoin for many years. And now they're just in the spot where it's, it's honestly somewhat refreshing because it's just like they're just going to be honest about it. Like there's no, there's no innovation here. It's just like this is financialization of the attention economy. Anyone can launch their token and see what happens. It probably rug polls probably gets dumped on retail. The other thing to note about Trump's coin is the supply dynamics, like the tokenomics quote, UN quote, 80% of it is locked up by, you know, insiders. And so the, you know, the reason why it was so crazy to watch over the weekend is because there's only 20% of the tokens that are free floating. So the circulating market cap, I think at its high got to like 7 1/2 billion, but like at its high like 15 billion, but on a fully diluted basis. So the entirety of the supply which will which will vest and be released over the next three years, it actually got up to like 72 billion, which is even bigger than like the largest meme coin currently, which is Dogecoin. So it's just like truly insane. And then like it also just sucked all the liquidity out of crypto market. So like, basically as this was happening as it got sort of ninja launched on Friday night, basically the entire altcoin space like collapsed in a matter of minutes as all the liquidity got sucked into Trump coin. People were just chasing it for the next like 48 hours basically. And so yeah, lots has happened. Lot lot has happened. But I I would agree Chase, like the freeing of Ross is a good signal of potentially, you know, more positive things to come Trump through world liberty financials also buying wrapped Bitcoin. So that's kind of being, you know, less discussed. It's not real bitcoins wrap Bitcoin, but there's some accumulation going on. The question I have for you guys on SBR stuff is like. Hold on, hold on all. Right. Sorry, you go. 1st, I just want to in Brian's defense, I don't believe he shit coins. I don't believe he has a big bag of all coins. He knows a lot about token economics and all the things around Milan and whatever else he talked about there because he has a good friend that has now become a friend of ours. Hopefully he listens to this one or he could share it. We won't say his name. I'll send it to him. That has made an insane amount of wealth trading these alternative currencies. And so Brian gets text late at night about, you know, these ultra long positions. So that was Brian's part of being chief strategy officer is keeping his ear to the to the to the pulse of what's happening in the crypto market. With all that said, I'm, I'm glad you took it in that direction because I think the SBR stuff, it's an interesting thing that we haven't talked about. But the reality is we all, we kind of said it here, it was going to happen day one. There was a good tweet that came out about like there's the Ross component, there's the Jan 6 folks, there's immigration, there's Lummis that happened today, there's Saab getting repealed for companies to come in, companies to get exposure. There's a lot of things in an order of operations that had happened before an actual like anything around strategic accumulation that always had happened. So it's like kind of crazy for us to think of that. So I think we're all on the same page there. What I do think is it really fascinating is the signal that Trump coin sends to like, there are no more rules, right? It's like everything's game on free market and people, it's like what makes this pod be even more important in educators because people are just going to lose so much money in what's about to happen. All the 15 years are going to look like child's play compared to because we're going to see the same thing. So you said need coins and speculation. Like sure, that's right, but they're going to recreate all the old narratives again. And we see this with like a lot of the tokenization stuff that black rocks shilling and people are going to conflate Bitcoin in that. It's just going to be chaos. So there's going to be two sides of the coin of bitcoins going to pump and A and A and a portion of this that just came out. I don't know if Jackson, you have it ready or we'll play it at some point, which is like XRP being in discussion. And I wouldn't put it past these guys because the amount of capital that Ripple and XRP have to like influence a lot of things. Yeah, I mean, on this stuff, it's going to get really hairy, I think, because we're now going to see a battle between people who are who want to push forward a Bitcoin strategic reserve and now people who want to push forward a crypto strategic reserve. And politicians haven't changed just because Trump got an office, You know, money talks. So it's going to be really interesting to see what happens over the next couple of weeks if we're going to move toward a Bitcoin strategic reserve at the federal level, or if it's going to look something more akin to what World Liberty is doing, which with their wrapped Bitcoin, their $47 million initial investment. And so, Michael, it really does tie to what you said. We're going to see rug pulls of epic proportion this cycle because we have massive pools of capital coming into an IOU on the Etherium blockchain of Bitcoin. And now we're going to see the conflation. I was hoping we're going to avoid it, but now we're really going to see the conflation of of Bitcoin and everything else at the at the national level. I think where the signal shines. Go ahead, Brian. I think there might be a silver lining though, because I see where you're headed with this and I'm also, you know, I have the same thoughts around like, well, now, you know, it's sort of back to the back to the drawing board in terms of educating and and distilling why Bitcoin is fundamentally different than the rest of crypto. And I, the newsletter that we put out today, I tried to speak to that and, and, and really just in simple terms, walk through like, you know, why Bitcoin is very different than the rest of this stuff. But back to Trumpcoin, it's like I saw some statistic that like 50% of the wallets that came into that coin were brand new wallets had never touched Solana before. So it was a massive onboarding event in like the worst possible way because these people are going to be rugged, particularly if they like bought the actual top, you know, over the weekend. But the the silver lining that I alluded to is like it's sort of in my optimistic take is like this event Trump coin specifically, like speed runs, the education for some folks. Because otherwise, like I think I think all this stuff would have happened regardless, even if Trump didn't launch his own coin, like I think there would still be sort of an altcoin phase to this cycle. But now it's so apparent, like going back to what I was saying around like there's no illusions about what Trump coin is. Like it is a completely speculative, you know, gambling esque bet. So I think like if that's your first entry into crypto, maybe you just learn your lesson faster and you arrive at Bitcoin and you know, faster than you maybe otherwise would have is my like, very optimistic, maybe a silver lining here. I, I think, I think the problem with that is like it is for some, but the reality is we are in a echo chamber bubble, whatever. And like people still need to get burned and like they're going to go like it's going to look more advantageous to buy like whatever the convertible bond that does X for Bitcoin. And I get downside limited and upside like there's just going to be so much like noise around it. But I do think we kind of can't gloss over the impact. Like there's an emotional thing that's really interesting, like the Ross getting part in because there's like the aspect of if you once you have a kid, then it's like a different level because you can always like understand how it's unjust. But then imagine if your kid was unjustly put in prison. But then from the impact where it ties into this is like if you really take a step back, that is some crazy stuff where somebody was locked away for two life sentences and Bitcoin. Plus 40 years. Plus 40 years, Bitcoin influenced that version because that's what happened at the end of the day. And that ties into all the the pictures at the inaugural ball. You couldn't even understand if it was like some other event or if it was not inaugural. I'm sorry, the crypto ball, because it had Besant Vivek, it had like all the players, like it's intertwined now. And so again, positive you. It's just like the whole thing is there's two sides to everything. And the same way we talk about here, single point of failures, like there's two sides. The bags are going to pump and then people are going to get kidnapped, right? Like they can both happen at the same time. And and so that's yeah. Yeah. Maybe just to jump in here for a SEC, maybe one other positive to this. Is that a Bitcoin strategic reserve? In contrast to this stuff, it starts to seem a lot more responsible. So maybe, and I don't know if Trump really plays 4D chess or not, but the Overton window definitely. If it shifts all the way to this meme coin madness, then a strategic Bitcoin reserve seems a lot more responsible on the nation state level. Yeah, I think I totally agree with that. And I think another silver lining in all of this is that regardless of what happens at the federal level and when it happens, ties back into what's happening at the state level. I think there's a dozen now states that have legislation introduced. And the more local you go in politics, the less corrupt it tends to be, at least as my perception, right? And so you'd imagine then people at the more localized levels, as they come up the curve on Bitcoin, they're going to want to opt for Bitcoin in their community on the balance sheet, not for this diversified basket of shit coins. And so the state, I think the state adoption will be interesting just as states begin to attract more capital and talent based on being Bitcoin forward. But then we'll even see that microcosm play out as well within, you know, towns, smaller municipalities, cities, etcetera. I think that's going to be really interesting to watch because I can't imagine them having a ripple and you know, Solana, Ethereum, treasury and they're, they're going to stick to Bitcoin only. Yeah, The other aspect of all this is you, which you said earlier about politicians, we're going to just change and that we know. I don't even know we can go down a laundry list. But the who's what's this is there's a there's a there's one that's a staple politician that just has like insane like returns from the stock market. And it's just like there's like even inside trader like tracking. Pelosi. Pelosi. Yeah, Pelosi. So where I'm going with this, where I'm going with this is like just how VCs accelerated the rugging for like the just return profile and all the things with accelerating token dumping. Well, politicians are going to be able to accelerate the rugging on how they can return capital because all this stuff is highly liquid. Yeah, maybe changing gears real quick. One thing I wanted to highlight was the Bitwise DOGE ETF. I'm sure you guys may have seen that. I think it's just like we're getting, we're getting crazy here, you know, Wall Street politicians, we're just going to go all in on the shit coins and I can't, maybe you guys have an idea. I can't think of a justification for launching this aside from making money. I I don't know how a, a firm would speak seriously to a wealth manager or an investment manager and make a case for why doge should be included in a serious investors portfolio. But maybe I'm missing something. Is there? Is there something? It's incompetence. It's not even about making money, because the amount of nominal money you make on something like this versus the credibility you will lose makes zero sense. It's fully incompetence. It's just incompetence. And if you use their ETF like that's who you're working with, it makes zero sense. Yeah, Yeah. I don't have much to to offer there aside from it's just disappointing to see. You'd think a firm that wants to be buttoned up and work with serious allocators wouldn't launch a product like that. But you know, it ends up, I think shining a better light on firms that are doing it the right way, whether it's Fidelity or, you know, what we're doing here, like focusing on the signal and Bitcoin. And so one other thing I wanted to touch on before we get into some of the other discussion points was some corporate treasury that we saw, I believe Tether officially or sorry, Tether invested in Rumble, but Rumble officially announced that they're they've added Bitcoin to the corporate balance sheet. And then there was one other has Critical Metals Corp. What you think trades on NASDAQ announced that they're looking to purchase up to $500 million of Bitcoin, maybe starting with $100 million initial investment. What are your guys thoughts on that? Chase, Tim. I mean, just more dominoes falling like the the Bitcoin, the corporate adoption of Bitcoin treasury I believe is going to be the story of the year, probably the story of the decade. There's so much trapped cash in these, you know, checking accounts and cash equivalents. People are wising up to the idea that, you know, they're being debased and that the 3637 trillion dollars of debt is going to have to be printed away. So companies are looking to protect themselves. They, they've got enough examples in leaders like MicroStrategy and similar scientific and metaplanet kind of leading the way. Yes, doing some things more than just buying and holding Bitcoin. But you know, the, the shareholder value story is there. The proof is in the pudding. And you know how? 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Trump order on crypto to develop national doge stockpile. Wise, it's. Not incompetent, they are geniuses. Damn, I'm the idiot now? I'll take that one. No, but the. Market reacting to this, we look like we got it to 106,000 and then they heard it was DOGE and and they said I'm going to sell Tim, what do you got? Yeah, I yeah, I've got a screenshot from an account at 12 say about three hours ago Trump order on crypto to develop national digital asset stockpile, according to Fox. So he wasn't sure if that was legit or not. Maybe it is as far as these other companies adopting a Bitcoin treasury strategy, It's encouraging because it's a way to normalize it. When I was talking with Matt Cole, he said really some of these players are going to need, want or need 10 to 20 companies at a minimum, just from like a diversification standpoint. So I think the more we can normalize it, the better and for better or worse that, I mean, it's been around for a while now. There's like, well, what about Ethereum? I'm going to stick with Bitcoin. Well, now there's Solana. Well, I'm going to stick with Bitcoin. And it just to all of your points, it's seems to become the more responsible thing. So you know, if we start with a meme coin, but then the president announces something to do with Bitcoin, it almost, this is crazy to say, it almost seems presidential then to say something about Bitcoin. Yeah, People have needed the air cover everywhere. We're seeing it across the space from Raas to businesses to individuals to family offices that they know there's something here. But between administration, regulatory, air cover and maybe this is a good segue for, you know, what we talked about, Joe Solana, like businesses are ultimately going to need shepherds through this process. They don't even know what to look at. How do they allocate? How do they custody? So maybe Jackson, I'll let you kind of. I don't want to hear your Thunder. You'd love to do that, though. You always say you don't want to do it, but you love to do it. But no, I'm just messing. No, but so chase one. One thing I wanted to say and then I want to hand it over to you is even though if we see a digital asset stockpile, I think what ultimately the forcing function is, is is part. There's three parts of it in my mind. I'm just riffing on this as I go. There's a local governments that will opt for Bitcoin over digital assets. I think other sovereign nations understand Bitcoin may be better than political grifters and they're likely going to opt more skewed toward Bitcoin in my opinion, doesn't mean it's going to be Bitcoin only. And then third would be corporations are going to adopt Bitcoin over crypto assets. So Chase, maybe I'll give it over to you and and Tim, of course as well. I want to hear from both of you guys, but I, I want to hear 1st about Acropolis because what you guys are doing is an area of the market where I don't think that there are any players that are doing anything differentiated, right? Like we'll talk about the custody landscape. That's just one piece of it. But we're going to see a repeal of Saab 121 soon. And that's really going to, that's going to allow for a lot of things on the corporate side on traditional financial institutions stepping in, bank stepping in. So maybe just to paint a picture, what are you guys doing at a very high level and why is now an opportune time for the business? Yeah. So at a very high level, Acropolis is working to simplify and scale the corporate adoption of Bitcoin treasuries. And we're doing that with kind of a repeatable process in a secure custody solution using multi institution custody. And so on a high level, you can think that OK, Bitcoin is this scarce asset, but another thing that's scarce is talented folks with backgrounds in corporate finance and treasury management that understand Bitcoin, the asset class and how to properly allocate towards it in a company's business and implement that treasury strategy. So what we do is we're essentially your outsourced Bitcoin treasury team. You can come to us and move a lot faster than trying to go out and find this talent and hire for in house Bitcoin treasury expertise. And so we'll help companies from everything from their accumulation strategy to getting them into on ramps, secure multi institution custody to accretive debt and equity financing support if they choose to go that route. And a lot of a lot of this really comes to the corporate communication strategy. So investor relations, stakeholder engagement, employee engagement, getting everybody kind of aligned and understanding why the company is moving in this direction. And, you know, to kind of cap that off, we also provide specialized tax and accounting support. And so really anything that a company would need to implement a Bitcoin treasury, we have this repeatable process in place. We have, you know, decades of industry expertise and you can go ahead and add a very kind of efficient pricing model. You can get your allocation today as opposed to trying to set this up in house and allocating at next year's prices. Yeah, it's super exciting. It reminds me of calling Acropolis a Bitcoin treasury business, like calling Google Internet technology company when it starts and then now it's just a technology company or a company. Because when you think about when Google first came out, you had to think about AdWords and all these things in marketing and understanding the Internet that we're still so early, but eventually you just use it all day long. You have G Suite when you spin up a company in the same way that you will have Bitcoin as a core, if not all of your treasury. And then you'll naturally need to incorporate that technology in your business. And so that migration now to to Chase's point requires a lot of stakeholder engagement because that's ultimately what's LED for we bring this up a lot. And Leachman, I think is coined this term of like the Bitcoin companies. So the companies that have adopted Bitcoin so far have a orange dictator. They have somebody that is able to top down push, but the reality is that's not how most companies governance is structured. And so they need to get by and, and that's why you see the individuals holding Bitcoin because it's a consensus of one. But at a corporate level, it requires a lot of hand holding work, engagement, driving from an outside perspective, as we know from individuals, we usually it's helpful to have peers to be in the room to help explain it because it's always just helpful because we all come from a super energetic point when we talk about it and usually need a little bit of a different temperament. So super pumped for what you guys are doing and the the launch of Acropolis this week. Yeah, if I can under score a couple of different aspects of this. So obviously you had micro strategy for a while, they were kind of it. And you Fast forward to Q 12025, there's literally this week, at least it seems like at least coming across my screen, like one company per day that is launching at least the intentions of having a Bitcoin treasury strategy. And to chase this point, the conversations that I've been a part of, like the very few individuals that actually do have the expertise to not only launch a Bitcoin treasury program, but communicated effectively, they are being courted by multiple people. And like the people that have a certain expertise that, that have a presence on social media. I mean, they're having conversations with some of the most accomplished, most energetic like like everyone's being pulled in a million directions. So, and even just from a corporate communications and stakeholder, you know, like standpoint, I mean, I see guys in in the space that have 10/20/30 less than 50,000 followers on X and their advisors to companies on their Bitcoin treasury strategy. I mean, that's I just think it's going to really kind of be a moment this year where if you're not kind of in, in the next couple of weeks or a couple of months, you're going to be like trying to get in touch with somebody that you're like hundreds of messages down their list of like, how do I even start? And I just like they were like, oh, well, just reach out to Acropolis. So I'm thankful that in in my seat because it's been a slow trickle, but it's picking up of like, oh, on ramp. Oh yeah, I've talked to Michael. Oh, Acropolis, What's that? So I just see this like really accelerating because of every single tailwind that we could sit here and discuss for hours on end. So, yeah, I don't think that could be understated. Even if you have a let's say mid sized, a larger company where they can kind of do it with their existing staff to Chase's point, it's going to be weeks or months, if not longer. And that's if you like kind of are clued in. And and even putting aside the buy in standpoint, just operationally, you know, if we're in a bull market and the price is is ripping, I don't know like like time is of the essence. I'll just leave it at that. Yeah, those are, I mean, those are all great points. There's that meme that that goes around these days where it's like you can just do things, right. But if you just do things in Bitcoin, you could end up getting rug pulled in many different ways. So I'm curious, Tim, it ties in the way you just said. And Chase, I would love to hear both of your thoughts on this is like as companies start to think about their corporate Bitcoin playbook, where where do they start? Right. Tim, you said like these companies are thinking about where do I start? Well, what's the answer to that? Where do these companies typically start if they want to push this forward in their organization? Go ahead, Tim. I mean, I think that's kind of an impossible question from the aspect of if someone maybe understands and understands Bitcoin as an asset, but from a corporate treasury standpoint, where do they start? Like like I don't outside of pointing them to Acropolis, I, I don't know where I would point them. So like that in and of itself I think should speak volumes. Like, like even people that are out there advocating for companies to put on their, on their balance sheet outside of some banks and other countries where you can custody digital assets, like I don't know where else you would start. And it's not like, as you guys might say, like talking your own book, like I don't, I don't know. Would you reach out to A to an exchange? I mean, in the US, you outside of BNY with a waiver, like who would you reach out to? I don't know. Yeah, I think there's two things that were blockers keeping companies from even being able to get started until very recently. Obviously one of those is the fasby rule changes. So from an accounting standpoint that is huge. Like we really can't under score that enough that now the appreciation on a company's Bitcoin holdings can be passed through as net income and and not marked down to its lowest point as an indefinite intangible. And so just as like being able to even start to have the conversation with the CFO and the finance team, that was a deal breaker out of the gate that has now been addressed as of Jan 1. And the other is really the work that we're all doing together with multi institution custody. I mean, this idea of a corporation like MicroStrategy holding billions of dollars of Bitcoin on plastic devices that are being held by actual team members, that's just a it's a non starter. And so to me, Jan One marked the start of corporations at least even being able to gain momentum if they're already educated on why Bitcoin deserves a role in their treasury as this kind of modern treasury reserve asset. Those two blockers have been knocked down and and that's why I think we're going to start to see some real runaway growth here. Yeah. I think one thing to call out that Tim references, you can't really get a hold of anybody in this space, which is really hard because everything's built for like in Brian's been there at Coinbase, unless you are like a sailor, it's very hard. You can have people with 20 to $100 million that can't get a hold of Coinbase, So that becomes very difficult. But then the other part is it sounds super simple, but this Bitcoin only focus ties into it because in the same way that we talk about asset managers and institutions being exit liquidity when the market runs, it's it's not going to be any different for corporate treasuries if they don't get educated on the volatility and understanding how to size the asset. And nobody's going to really do that or very few people are going to do that if you're launching DOGE ETFs and you're talking about a diversified basket of crypto currencies. And so again, a lot of these things are actually really simple, but nobody does them for a number of reasons. And we've kind of hashed them out. So we don't have to hash them out here unless we want to. But but I think that's just simple version of understanding the asset and being able to go and understand what the goals of the company are. And then how do you size it appropriately are so simple, but are fundamental if you're going to have a good experience with this asset, because anything else and you're going to be left holding a bag, which is not to mention the last part is like yield, yield, You know, Brian was referencing like, you know, the stuff that's going to happen, like corporate treasuries are going to go through the same learning curve. Hopefully it's it's not as bad, but they're going to look at this asset sitting and they're going to say, well, somebody's coming to me now that can either take my dollars instead of Bitcoin and give me downside protection with some nominal, some yield, or I can put this Bitcoin and generate some yield. And they had, they don't know the 15 years or the past four years with, you know, three AC Genesis, blah, blah, that they're just going to get hurt again. And all that's going to come because we saw this with Coinbase last week, launch the rats, whatever they were doing around lending. And so I think that there's a lot of really simple things that just take focus and most people aren't focused in this industry and that's why you don't see them out in the market. Michael, Speaking of focus at the sake of saying breaking news, David Bailey did tweet people it's a Bitcoin stockpile Bitcoin. And I think this just underscores that in addition to just like the price volatility and someone trying to like get their arms around that from an education standpoint, you have, I don't know who said this, but it's like cryptos like this window dressing that at least for me, maybe draws in attention and maybe that's for better or worse a funnel into Bitcoin. But like we've seen this administration before from like just a total, like you've seen four years of it. The showmanship, the dramatics are going to continue. So like if you want to like read every single Fox headline and be like, oh, it's this, oh, it's that like some of this stuff is like it's meant to grab your attention and it like it's not going to stop. Like some of it's entertaining, some of it's funny, some of it's annoying. Maybe it depends on what your temperament and personality disposition is. But like the theatrics will continue is what I'm trying to say. And so that that amount of focus on Bitcoin, that's where it should be. But all of this, you know, like all of these things are funnel into Bitcoin, but it's kind of a, you know, double edged sword, if that makes sense. It's kind of my thought. Yeah. No, I, I tend to agree with that Tim. And one, one thing I was just thinking about as you were saying that is shifting back into the Bitcoin like corporate strategy, regardless of what happens at the federal level, we'll continue to monitor the announcements of announcements that people like to put out into Twitter, But I'd be hard pressed to find corporate strategies looking to issue debt and equity instruments around DOGE or Ripple, right. And so Chase and Tim, all these questions are for both of you guys. Like I'm curious to hear as it as you guys think about corporate strategy and Bitcoin, do you think there's going to be a lot of other companies this year that tend to do to access capital markets through debt and equity issuance? Or do you think it'll skew more heavily toward more of a vanilla strategy where adding Bitcoin to the balance sheet and then maybe kind of exploring from there? You know, it's, it's hard to say. I'm seeing both in conversations with clients. So for example, a lot of clients don't want to touch that stuff and maybe rightfully so. And they just want to lump sum into Bitcoin with an initial allocation and then have their ongoing accumulation strategy set up with their kind of DCA ING into the asset. But we have had clients reaching out to us even just this week that are saying, you know what, we actually don't want to make an initial allocation. We want to go raise debt or raise equity to make that initial allocation to raise the capital for that initial buy. So that, that's actually surprising to me. We, we provide those services at Acropolis to kind of help companies approach capital markets and, and do these kinds of financings. There's clearly an appetite out there for some folks. But you know, we would encourage people, our clients to start with an initial allocation set aside in an an ongoing accumulation strategy and then possibly have the discussion around raising equity or debt capital to kind of bring pull forward future purchases. Chase, what are those conversations looking like right now like you kind of described, But what I meant is what are those profiles look like for the conversations you're having? Are they largely private companies? How of what size are you speaking to public companies now too? How are those conversations developing? So we are speaking to some publics and those are the companies that are more interested in tapping the capital markets because they just have that advantage over privates. I would say we're seeing kind of a 5050 split in clients between public and private. The privates are certainly bigger than you know, we we kind of talk about how we're willing to serve the mom and pop restaurant and that is true. If you want to reach out to us, we'll have that conversation with you. But we are definitely positioning ourselves for kind of upper market, but we're seeing both. We're seeing private and public. And honestly, we're seeing all jurisdictions. So because Bitcoin is this global asset, we're talking to Publix in India, Publix in Middle East, so Publix in Europe. So really anywhere that is a public entity right now and can tap those capital markets, they're sitting on the sidelines watching MicroStrategy run the playbook. And I do think that there's a little bit of FOMO there. So yeah, we're kind of seeing a bit of everything. Yeah, I, I suspect similar to Bitcoin. Well, it's sexy on the institutional or Publix or the Corp treasury. The reality is there's just going to be much more. I'm always confident like or make a heavy bet. It's going to be much more on the privates and for for basically the reason of consensus. Like it's easier to do and then there's so much, there's so many pools of capital out there. And the beauty of like something like Acropolis is this notion of at the end of the day, there's already a lot of actually like Bitcoin held on behalf of treasuries, but they generally don't have a really good solution thinking through long term. If it's sitting in hardware devices, well, you naturally need to bring that somewhere if you have to manage your accounting or lend against that or do other things from an operating perspective or if you just need to have financial services in the future. So I think that the corporates are are definitely get a lot of the buzz and they're sexy. But the private capital is going to be very interested. And especially like I think Tim, we've talked about a little bit, what does it look like from a convertible perspective into equity. If somebody can allow for some accretive financing for a sexy cash flow positive private company that you can help get some Bitcoin on the balance sheet and then convert to some of the equity at the holding company level and get some of those dividends to start stacking your first version because maybe you're just aren't ready. I think there's going to be a lot of interesting things that can be in the private markets with a lot of the excess capital that's just sitting on the sidelines. Yeah, it's interesting to hear, Chase, what conversations you're having because the few conversations and and things I've picked up on, it seems like it's just a journey for everyone. They start with putting it on their balance sheet. And then as especially if they're a public company as these, as they're going along on their journey and these options are making themselves apparent and maybe they're saying what MicroStrategy is doing and then trying to follow in those footsteps that it's kind of walk a mile, see a mile. The other thing I think it's interesting, not totally related, is on the state level, you've seen legislation being introduced for a Bitcoin reserve. And even with some of these other projects having some capital and having, you know, maybe some voice in someone's ear somewhere, you haven't seen what maybe we would have seen a few years ago, which is some sort of Dogecoin reserve at the state level. So I think that tells me that, I mean, it's, it's encouraging obviously, but it's also just, I think a sign of like people are when, when they have to be serious, they're serious and when they have to understand something, hopefully they they are understanding the difference between some of these assets. How do conversations differ between global companies or international companies versus domestic? The really the only difference comes down to accounting treatment in those jurisdictions. You know, not, not everybody all over the world is getting this fasby update as of Jan 1. So other than that, the asset really is global, it really can provide the same benefits to a corporate treasury in the UAE versus you know, a Texas LLC. So the the really only thing that needs to be accounted for if they're not tapping their capital markets that they're in is the accounting treatment, which is you know, pretty worked out And and we have kind of third party partnerships, alliance partners that we can lean on in different regions to support that. Yeah. I mean, at the end of the day, everyone's facing the same problem, right? I mean, all Fiat currencies are being devalued. We have AUS dollar centric regime globally and so when that liquidity expands and contracts within the dollar, it has all sorts of rippling effects and systemic issues in other countries as well. So it's not surprising to hear that the traction so far has been globally because the end of the day, there's really no escaping this. I mean you can't really put you can't put as many other assets on your balance sheet. So everyone just kind of stuck holding these currencies that are being devalued, some at 10% a year, others at fifty, others that are hyperinflating. So yeah, I mean, it's it's exciting to hear. There doesn't seem to be a lot of companies at the moment that are addressing these issues. And I love what you guys are doing as it relates to just tapping into capital markets and also providing the education as well, because that's still going to be needed. We're really in the first inning of what these conversations will look like in terms of being able to communicate value to investors on the public side and then on the private side getting the buy in of other stakeholders and partners at the firm. I think 1 aspect of this that we've talked about a lot and this is going to like exemplify it and people still they won't talk about it for a while, is the version of like you asked, international or domestic, like around custody and where it sits. Because it becomes very nonsensical if you're sitting in El Salvador and you have it at Coinbase and they found that out via Twitter and they had to bring their Bitcoin home. But in the same way that it was nonsensical for the University of Texas and A&M's endowment fund, which I believe now is the largest in the country to have their whatever Billings in New York and Kyle Bass had it driven down to Texas and put in the first North American Bullion Depository. Is the same thing around the custody aspect that custody will be required over time to be localized. And it's just a thing that most people aren't thinking of. It's like when it's a 1% allocation, nobody's going to be worried about it. But if we all know it ends up at 5:00 and then ten people are going to naturally have issues. And that's really where this notion of, you know, sav getting repealed and the bank sitting in, But then eventually people can wake up and be like, wait, should they have all of it? And then you can kind of see this multi institutional world start to proliferate. And I think the same thing with Indian clients, UAE clients, they may not want no exposure to custody in the West or maybe only one of those keys. It's an interesting mix of localized while also remaining global in the sense that it's sort of like everywhere and nowhere. If you're using multi state with keys distributed across the world, where is your Bitcoin? It's kind of everywhere and nowhere, but you can still have that localized support with 1-2 or even all three of the key holders being in your jurisdiction. So it is a it's an interesting sort of vision of the future that I think we're just beginning to scratch the surface of and and people waking up to those realities of because it just hasn't like you haven't been able to custody an asset like this ever before. So like what you referenced Michael around like bringing the gold from New York to Texas, it's like you don't have to go that route. You just spread it out. Yeah. And and maybe I should have mentioned this, but Acropolis offers three different tiers of service. So our base tier is just the concierge onboarding into multi institution custody. So none of our kind of outsourced Bitcoin treasury team services with that. But then our higher 2 levels of service, those, it's where you really get to have access to our team and our resources, our education, quarterly meetings, etcetera. And that highest tier, our Olympus tier, that's where we offer multi jurisdictional, multi institution custody. Chase, what are your thoughts on just the corporate treasury market? I know in the investment memo that was put out this week, the market is about $12 trillion. I think it's $11.6 trillion between public markets and then what was estimated to be in private markets as well. How do you think about Acropolis capturing that market and on what time? I mean, this is almost like an impossible question. Tim, I, I asked you an impossible question earlier, so here's another one. But I'd be curious to hear like in 2025, what are your thoughts ballpark or however you'd think about it? And then over, you know, the next decade, what do you think Bitcoin corporate adoption looks like and how much of that $11.6 trillion in today's value flow into Bitcoin? Yeah, I would say and and we did kind of express this in our total addressable market as part of the investment memo with early riders. We anticipate over the next decade for corporate treasuries to be sitting about 20% of that treasury in Bitcoin. And so you can imagine that a decade from now that 9 to 12 trillion in cash and cash equivalents sitting in private and public combined balance sheets that that number might be double. So you know, if you call 20% of that, you're looking at essentially 20% of maybe $20 trillion of market cap available. So obviously Acropolis is not going to be the only player in this space. We, we have a pretty amazing technology and head start right now thanks to our partnership with On Ramp. But this space is going to grow. You know, with Saab 121 being repealed, we do expect more of the institutions and banks to come in and try to provide these services. Now I think we all understand that Bitcoin as an asset class is unique. It's a digital bear asset. It takes that 100 plus hours at a minimum to really start to understand the different properties that make this valuable and and to be able to communicate that to an executive team so that they can communicate it with their shareholders. So we feel really good about our position and our head start here. And yeah, we just hope to maximize the opportunity. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's really exciting. It's a massive market and I'll be keen to watch how this plays out. Just with companies looking to deploy that strategy, are they going to try to hire internally or are they going to lean on a firm like Acropolis to advise them on how to deploy a strategy? I think it will be the latter just because, Chase, to your point, it does take so much time and there's only so many people out in the, let's say, Bitcoin industry at the moment who also know corporate strategy and corporate adoption and treasury management. So I do think that you're really well positioned as a company just because, A, these companies don't have the time or resources to hire it internally because we're so early in Bitcoin. And then B, you're providing so much value for what it seems to be like it extremely reasonable price or in line with, you know, typically how these things are managed. So that's a great opportunity. I'm really excited to see what happens in the, you know, in the coming years as we March toward that $11 trillion number and how much of that will be accrued into Bitcoin in public and private markets and in the US and globally. Yeah. And maybe one other thing to mention there is that when you work with a crop list, because our pricing model is based on the percentage, you know, basis points on your assets under custody, our revenue is aligned with the growth of your Bitcoin treasury. And so we're not actually adding any fixed overhead to your business. So that's another advantage for why a business would want to, you know, move forward with a crop list as opposed to bringing it all in house. Tim, what are your thoughts and the micro strategy True North thoughts as it ties into capturing the $11 trillion corporate treasury market? I we just think it's all going to go higher. And at the at the risk of breaking war news, President Trump did just sign a crypto executive order establishing a working group to look into the establish to establish a digital asset stockpile. And then the the other fine print there, because I'm looking at this too potentially derived from cryptocurrencies lawfully seized by the federal government. So I think perhaps why this is being called the digital asset stockpiles, because basically what they're going to do, at least to start is just keep everything they already have. And they've seized a lot of other assets outside of Bitcoin at way smaller amounts in dollar terms. But and then the other one in here is agencies are permitted from establishing or promoting central bank digital currencies in, you know, the US or abroad. So that's it. That's, that's great. Yeah. And then working group and a framework for digital assets within 180 days. So that's that's pretty soon. I'm just waiting for Trump to OK, Tim. No CBDC, That's good. Yeah, huge positive. I was just going to, I was going to say I'm just waiting for Trump to announce like one of those AI trading bots for meme coins for the strategic crypto digital asset reserve. It seems like the next evolution of this here. Well, any other thoughts before we pivot into the single point of failure of the week? Was there anything that we didn't touch on yet for Acropolis or just Bitcoin treasuries? No. I mean, the only thing here is that we announced this week that we're no longer just working kind of behind the scenes with these clients, that we are now available globally. So yeah, please reach out. Awesome. So Chase and Tim, you guys may not be Privy on this yet because we just started it like a couple weeks ago, but we're doing single point of failure of the week. And Michael, I think you had one this week. It's really just a call out either bad practices or misfortune in the industry, whether it's at an individual level or it's A at a business level. And the purpose of it for the listeners is to just reconsider things because a lot of what we discussed today is and just in general is really bullish, right? And what I think people tend to miss or there's a disconnect between if you're really bullish on Bitcoin and you think that it goes, Tim, it goes higher this year and in the future, well, you need to also think about the risk, you know, the risk profile in the, in the, the vectors are only going to increase with the price. And that's what I think there's this disconnect where what has worked in the past, if you're managing a $500 per Bitcoin or 1000 or $10,000 per Bitcoin is really not going to suffice or cut it when Bitcoins 100,000 or when Trump launches his AI bought to trade Bitcoin and it's, you know, 7 figures, right? But like seriously, there's this disconnect where as the price appreciates over time, there needs to be more maturity and evolution as it relates to managing the asset. So, Michael, I think you might have had some. I have some stuff too, but I want to hand it over to you. Yeah, I think, I think there's another one that Jackson's referring to that will probably more riff on, but I want to just highlight, we try to do 1A week, but they just come up every week and it's hard not to bring them up because I think that we are at we're we have a unique seat that we get to hear from about this stuff. So to make them quick, one was we met with a prospective client, ended up being a client, but he had taken a picture of AC phrase and stored it. And again, you would think, well, why would somebody do that? How dumb it could be. It's like this guy's actually super intelligent. He had collaborative custody set up and I don't, I think he only had one C phrase. But Long story short, because Google images are like when you get into somebody's Google account, you can effectively search for different kinds of images. So you can imagine whether it's like somebody at Google or somebody that got access to his Google account, they already know what to look for when you look for the bit 39 words. So you're able to like pick him up. So they were able to get into his collaborative custody account and then actually sign, upload the key. And so all they needed was one more key to sign. They didn't get the asset. So multi sig did help there. The other one was God bless. This person has millions of dollars. Split up the seeds. This is what you see a lot. So if you hear this, please don't do this or really change it is you'll see split up the seeds, whether it's a 12 or 24 word and you'll cut it in half and then they'll give it to somebody and then they'll keep half, which is already a big problem because it seems like it's not. But the reality is you're cutting the amount of variance. So you already have six of the words. Now you can start to brute force the last 6 to get to the private key. But what this person did is took it a step further and they stored those words in Google Sheets. So again, if you know how to scan for that information, you already can start to put that together. We don't say this to free people. I remember it's just a reality that like you think about family members, they all boomers, we don't have all the money. They're going to come into space and they're going to hear not your keys, not your coins, and they're going to go and try to do these things and it's just going to be, you know, a disaster. So anyway, anything to add there guys before we jump in? I think there's the main one, which is the the Ledger situation. No, I think it's great. And, and at the end of the day, people anchor to what they see on Twitter specifically. And what you see on Twitter is the people who spend countless hours perfecting their setup or in their opinion perfecting the setup. And for most people, they're just too busy, not technically savvy enough, not interested enough to do this the right way. So I always emphasize the fact that self custody has a ton of merits, but the people who do it for like all of their Bitcoin or most of their Bitcoin are in the .01% of people who, who should be doing it. And to think that your setup is adequate or on par with those people, you may be, you may be deceiving yourself in some cases. And I was like that for a while where I was just half assed it. And fortunately, I never lost a material amount of Bitcoin. Definitely lost seed phrases before for like smaller balances, but and that'll be bigger one day. So that'll that'll hurt. But what I'm trying to drive toward is there, there's not going to be 1 solution fits all like that. Everyone has a unique situation. I always think about this because I'm from the traditional finance base where people have their own portfolios to meet whatever they need to do in their lives, right? And then that's why they work with financial advisors and that's why it's a multi trillion dollar industry. And so the same thing happens with Bitcoin, right? Where there's going to be different solutions. And most people just don't have the time to do this the right way. And that's OK, but you also don't want to be doing it the wrong way because as Michael mentioned, just two examples, There's countless examples we see every week. Like we could probably do 2 hour podcast just talking about all the things that we see every single week. So just a call to action, like reconsider things. If you think that there is going to be a strategic Bitcoin reserve and there's going to be a ton of momentum this year, then get ahead of it as well. It doesn't mean you need to work with us. Obviously we'll help the people who see value in it. But at least like, upgrade what you're doing before the pain becomes too acute, and that's really when you start to mess things up. Yeah, redundancy. Redundancy and fault tolerance are key, like in life, right? And similar with Bitcoin, it's like you just don't want to get knocked out of the game by a single point of failure. The other one that is even bigger and it's what we've talked about and it's sad and scary and I guess he's back with his family, but the Ledger Co founder getting kidnapped and I don't know if it's true or not. So I'm just, I've gotten a little trouble saying things that you see on Twitter, but it's like they sent a part of his pinky to his family. And again, this is what Jameson treated. So you go get mad at Jameson if it's sure, but but the point there is what we talked about before. It's like you would most people be like, oh, well, that's a public facing person associated with crypto. So that's why it's like, well, at the end of the day, all we all know all this data is out there and it's just a matter of time before and people can do it today. Discern how much Bitcoin almost everyone on this pod has if you really go deep because between chain analysis and all the leaked CRMS and the Coinbase and Gemini and all those exchange accounts having because like think about they're the people there that have access to that that go and leak that information the CRM like all the data sets. So point being is that then you'll be able to discern who how much Bitcoin somebody owns and this guy like a public figure. And the problem with it is you really think about this individual probably was targeted because they have asymmetric information about like the vulnerabilities and Ledger if there are any or other ways to get capital right. Like the person didn't just take him because he's the Co founder of a business. They took him because he has something that they needed and they thought that if they took him he could make one or two decisions or give up information that can move large sums of money. And Brian and I talked about this like that just doesn't happen in the traditional markets, at least in the United States. You don't take Bezos, you don't take these guys. Obviously they have armed, they have security, but they're also like you can't move that amount of capital freely without taking weeks. Right. They're they're not holding vast majority of their wealth in bearer instruments. Exactly, don't have businesses that have vast amounts of wealth in bearer assets that they can actually divulge of where there's vulnerabilities. And so anyway that I think that's like a very big part because over the course of this year, we'll see more of this, sadly, and it won't always end up with a person getting back to their family. And we just generally like don't talk about a lot because it sounds like talk in your book or FUD. But the reality is like, we need to really do a piece on this. It's like, I think we've seen all this play out already with gold. There's a reason why we ended up with banks. Now gold failed because banks centralized and that's what the goal on earth is to decentralize the asset in a way. But the reality is like golden to banks because people go and hit you over the head or hire militias to go take your asset. So that's where this all ends. So unless you're prepared for that, then you should rethink. It's Jackson's point and not looking listen your local podcast that tells you not your keys, not your coin, because what's implied there is you're basically going to shoot somebody when they come to your house if they come for it and. The implication is you're willing to die for a trade. Exactly. That trade is the last trade. So it is an important trade, but not I I would suspect most people are not willing to die for a trade. And the kicker is the people that talk about willing, willing to die for the trade are actually not the people willing to die for the trade. So if you go on Twitter and anybody's with a gun or stuff, they're probably not the person. They're going to be the first person to get the guns. Speaking from a Texan's perspective. Yeah, I mean the the loudest proponents of self custody Bitcoin are essentially making themselves targets. Yeah, and they generally have a self custody platform or a hardware device. So they're in the game of selling plastic devices. They have to be loud about it. Yeah. One other thing that it's not as heavy, but it's still things that people do is leave Bitcoin on exchanges. And so there was a client that signed up with us recently wanted to move a decent amount of Bitcoin from his exchange account, which he happened to use Robin Hood. Don't ask me why he would do that, but he had, he had a decent amount of Bitcoin on Robin Hood. And for weeks, like I'm corresponding with this guy over e-mail call and he's trying to get an answer from the Robin Hood team as to why his transfer hasn't gone through to his on ramp fault. And eventually they get back to him and say, well, since you're a resident of New York, you actually can't transfer your Bitcoin out of your Robin Hood account. So now he just has this Bitcoin and Robin Hood that if he actually ever wants to own it, whether it's in self custody or it's in multi institution and have control of the asset, we'll have to sell out of that position, deal with the capital gains and then repurchase the allocation. And so there are people, I talk to people all the time. Not everyone is holding their own keys. A lot of people have fortunately been safe on it in some, in some circumstances, on some exchanges, and that's fine. Maybe you'll continue to be safe, but you actually don't control the asset. You can't move it where you want to move it. And so then you have this IOU where the only thing you're going to get out is dollars. So just pay attention to that is an unfortunate circumstance, I think between Robin Hood's policy and then they're just like, yeah, if you move out of New York, let us know and then we can move your Bitcoin. You can move your Bitcoin out so. Yeah, PayPal. I had that same experience as somebody on PayPal. It's funny because we go and you, you can find this deck. We're pulling up the losses. Jackson's gonna kill me because. Or is this is this an updated number The number? On the chart is wrong. OK, so it's wrong. So we have. The 600 is roughly right. Come on man, I gave you the right chart. 600 billion encrypted losses on a slide deck. It's on a website if you're listening. But the point of bringing it up is it's actually shocking when we talk with prospective clients before they onboard and we pull up this slide because it's really important to anchor to like what we're saying is not just because we're saying it's like, it's the facts, it's the truth in 2022, everyone forgets what happened and and it's going to happen again. And then but they just kind of like, look, and they're like, Oh yeah, I'm block 5 or like I'm FTX, I'm prime trust. They just like reference it as part of the learning curve. It's like, did that, does that how like how long, how much longer do we have to go through that before people like, oh, I just didn't get rugged in my entry point into Jackson's point like these exchanges. And I think a lot of people anchor the triad finance, but the problem with that is that they anchor too. Maybe one day they're going to let them take it out. It's like, I think people underestimate the complexity to just send Bitcoin from like a company perspective for us native, it's not hard, but you think about compliance, worrying about OFAC sanctions, having to do that from every client. Like it's not just a a given that these companies or ETFs are eventually going to let you redeem and it may be years from now once the ruggings occur in consumer protection, all those things happen in the meantime. There's all the different instances where people are going to wake up and have to have a taxable event on this like huge gain if they want to take delivery. Chase, Tim, any anything else from you guys before we wrap it? No, just thanks for having me on. It's for people who don't know my background. This is kind of full circle. I, I was a fan of the show and reached out to Michael trying to, you know, do something in the Bitcoin space. And that's how we came into my role at Acropolis. So this is a, this is a really cool full circle moment for me. Thanks. Yeah. I mean, it's actually a good plug because Early riders is an investment. It's our Bitcoin denominated firm, venture firm. And this was always the thesis is that the best builders were going to be coming in the cycle coming from the traditional, you know, startup, entrepreneurial technology, finance world, seeing Bitcoin and wanting to build a new infrastructure for this next cycle and kind of next wave of adoption. And so thanks for reaching out. It's been exciting and we look forward to seeing what you guys build. Yeah, and I'll just add that on several large exchanges, the cell walls are now up around 120,000. So you know, the price is probably only 100 hundred and 204,000 but you know time is of the essence for anyone that wants to reach out to any of us even just to start a conversation. So appreciate you guys having me on. Tim's a Tim's a Mega Bowl. I love it. Tim is the FOMO bowl. Tim, are your bags packed or are you or do you have are you all? In I, I'm all. In I'm all. In Oh yeah. Thanks guys. Yeah, thanks boys makes. Sense. Thank you. Thanks for listening to this week's episode of the show. If you found the information valuable, please share the episode with a friend or leave a rating on your favorite podcast app. All the links we discussed in today's show will be in the show notes inside your podcast app. Before we finish, a quick reminder that On Rat Media is for informational and entertainment purposes only, and nothing should be construed as investment or legal advice. Regardless of where you are on your Bitcoin journey, we'd love to hear from you. Visit onrampbitcoin.com contact to schedule a consultation with one of our private client advisors.
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