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It all comes down to computers communicating. The information superhighway can be a confusing mix of on ramps and off ramps. Bitcoin is worthless, artificial. Gold. Is it still rat poison? Probably rat poison squared. We need to get into the. World of OK, this is actually foundational technology. What the Internet of Money does is it creates a single network which can do a microtransaction to a giga transaction. The Internet is going to be one of the major forces for reducing the role of gun. The one thing that's missing that that will soon be developed is a reliable E cash. Welcome back to Final Settlement episode 15, I believe. And today on the show we have Roy Scheinfeld from Breeze Technology. Roy is the Co founder and CEO of Breeze, which is a Bitcoin company that's focused on lightning infrastructure and really making lightning easier to use for both individuals and and businesses alike. They provide open source software development kits like the Breeze SDK, which we'll talk about, as well as solutions for Lightning service providers. And they also have a mobile app with a number of innovative functionalities. Prior to to founding Breeze in in 2018, Roy spent many years building in the realm of enterprise software. So very excited to have Roy on the show today. A number of topics to get into, but Roy, welcome. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for inviting me, Brian. Thank you, Michael. Yes, super excited for this episode. I was thinking about I was driving to to record. How do we introduce you? And I don't know if this is, I would embarrass you, but I think like the godfather of lightning, you've been building so far, so long and on lightning that I feel like there's only a few other folks in the Bitcoin industry that have also come from traditional technology, but then also have been, you know, effectively hacking at, you know, lightning and 2nd layers and finding different solutions, different implementations. So really excited to hear kind of the journey. And then what's, what's the latest? Because I feel like your breeze is on the bleeding edge of things. Yeah, yeah. Thank you for making me feel old, feel old, Michael. But we definitely started early. Early on, I think we founded Breeze with the first main transactions running on Lightning. So yeah, we were. We were lucky enough to get in early and then to start building, expanding the Latin technology. We're not there yet, but very hopeful that we'll get there soon. Yeah, yeah. We'll, we'll get into all that. Maybe it makes sense to take a a bit of a step back earlier, you know, prior to founding Brees. I'd love to learn a little bit more about, you know, your career prior to even Bitcoin and when you started to sort of grok and understand Bitcoin. And then, you know, once Lightning came along along like, you know, making that jump to, to focus specifically on on lightning infrastructure. I think, you know, at that time 201718 super nascent, like taking a bit of a, a leap in the sense of like this is the area I want to focus. So I'd love to hear about that, that sort of trajectory. Sure. So yeah, I, I, I worked for the in the Israeli high tech scene for about 20 years. Started off as a software engineer working on CC Plus plus projectsthen.net, different project, but mainly around enterprise software businesses. Worked as a consultant for a long time. Then I kind of joined the company called Mainsoft, which was also a company in the enterprise software business. I was supposed to be there for three months and ended up staying for 15 years, and I actually helped pivot the company from one business to a different business. We started off by creating a compilers and and ended up as creating document collaboration software for large enterprises. We had a lot of Fortune 100 companies part of our customer base and I was the Co founder and CTO of Harmony. We renamed the company from Mainsoft to Harmony and I served as the city of of Harmony for about 8 years till 2017 where and that's I'm I'm a betweener since 2013. So I I actually read the white paper because my friend Akiva that ended up founded Breeze together with me. Breeze I'm the Co founder but I have two other Co founders that were part of harmony and and and Akiba read the white paper and he told me and my other partner that we should kind of read the white paper. We read the white paper in 2013. Of course, we didn't understand anything. So we started the having our lunch breaks talking, deciphering the, the, the, the white paper, talking about different concepts and different aspects of Bitcoin from the software engineering part, the crypto, the cryptography, the game theory, the economics. So people stopped sitting next to us in on, on this last breaks because we kind of the only thing that we was talking about was was Bitcoin and, and we all bought some bitcoins back in 2013 and we kind of started following the space in 2017. I, I got Crohn's disease, Crohn's disease. If somewhere some of the some of the listeners are unfamiliar. It's an inflammatory bowel disease. It's and the actually it's, I got into a state where I was kind of completely down for six months. I couldn't even, I couldn't eat, I couldn't move. I was, and I was in kind of my, the prime of my career and, and that gave me a slap on the face basically. And it brought me into a state where I had to reflect on why, why I ended up staying in bed for six months. And during this chronic disease is a, is an autoimmune disease where the body attacks itself. And, and mostly it's about it's a stress related disease like the, the trigger is stress. So I had to ask to, to ask myself questions like, why am I stressful? And am I doing the thing that I need to do? Am I aligned with my mission in life? I, I know like it sounds like a cliche, but I really had to ask this question myself in order to start and rehabilitate from the, from the disease. And, and part of the answers were that I'm not bringing the value and I'm not doing the stuff that I, I'm supposed to do and I, I enjoy doing. As a result, I started, I started working in Bitcoin because Bitcoin was my passion and I wanted to bring value in the area where I was passionate about. And that was together with the emergence of Lightning Network. So the two things kind of happened in conjunction. I got the Crohn's disease, which kind of I had to reshuffle the cards that I received. And I since I, we've been following the, the Bitcoin space. We saw the the merchants of lightning network. I don't, I, I, I'm not sure if you remember like 2017 was like the post lock size wars and like the narrative of Bitcoin being a digital gold was, was really, really strong at that time. Like a lot of, I saw a lot of Bitcoiners like give up on the premise and the promise of Bitcoin, which was for me a peer-to-peer, peer-to-peer of cash and, and, and and that like seeing that together with this new promising technology that emerged in the in the form of lightning network. I told myself, OK, like I need, I need to do to, to deal with that already. Like I started seeing the problems that for the collected lighting network can be, can have in the market, like the the, the challenge of bringing a lightning to mainstream users. And the, yeah, that's why we founded Breeze and that's why we started Breeze. And we started Breeze as a, as a wallet app, which I hate, by the way, I hate the term wallet. I hate the fact that people need to use wallets to interact with Bitcoin. But we had kind of to launch a user facing app in order for us kind of to interact with the market and to develop the, the gaps and to kind of bridge the gaps that exist in, in, in, in Lightning, but slow slowly, like we're transitioning to our true calling that we envisioned from the get go. And it's about not bringing people to lightning, but actually trying to bring lightning to where people are. And that's that's kind of the mission of Breeze. At Onramp, we believe that Bitcoin is the most important asset of the 21st century. The hard part is securing it right. There are shortcomings with keeping your coins on an exchange, but also with setting up your own self custody arrangement. On Ramp solves for these concerns. Our multi institution custody solution maximizes security and minimizes counterparty risk, ensuring that your Bitcoin remains securely in your possession and provides built in inheritance planning to ensure your family is protected as well. On Ramp provides Peace of Mind for your Bitcoin journey, whether for your whole stack or for part of it as a compliment to your existing self custody setup. For more information, check us out at on rampbitcoin.com. All of that story, I didn't know that about you Roy. And I think that is very indicative of we don't choose Bitcoin. Bitcoin chooses us, whether it's from the allocation in mind virus to like ultimately working in the space, haven't been as around as long as you, but have been around building and hiring. And, and you kind of, I'm sure you've seen this where individuals are stuck kind of in the traditional world and they have to make that decision point. And I always in my mind, I hope, you know, provide a framework, but the decisions made for them, they're, they don't know it yet, but they've already made the decision because no money, you know, all the accolades. It's the, it's the framework that Bezos talked about where he said, like when he first started Amazon was like, well, when he was on his deathbed, would he regret it? Because if that's the choice, like would he regret failing or leaving D Shaw? And it's very similar to this, like the individual that you want on your team and to be participating and that we invest in you, you just, there's no other choice. And, and the money and the other thing we figured out. And if it doesn't get figured out, well, you left it out on the field versus just like having that regret, that regret framework. So makes sense. I couldn't take three more. I couldn't take three more. And I always compare it to artists like a musicians or, or people in the performing art like, you know, it's not going to be easy, but you don't have you don't really have a choice. Like you said, they might be between chooses you like if you that's your calling, you need to follow your calling. And, and, and, and between is hard by the way, compared to other start-ups that I worked in the low time preference. Yes, of course it's easy to say low time preference, but when you're running a startup, a Bitcoin startup that is based on the low time preference, it's far like it. It doesn't work in the kind of the Fiat economy and the VC, the traditional, the traditional VC wall like any startup is expected to get to a significant revenue stream within two years, three years. It's very challenging to do that in Bitcoin, but we, yeah, I, I accept the challenge. Like we're here to, to, to do something that we believe brings value to the wall. And you know, what's my kind of my, my, my, my metric is the fact that I wake up every day with a smile on my face. That didn't used to happen. And even it's even the, even though it's so challenging, even though like it's a, you know what Elon masks said about like running a startup, Like it's chewing glass, staring at the obese, like, yeah, so, So what? Like still, I'm so excited about building bridge. I'm so excited about contributing to Bitcoin and contributing to a better future that like, I wouldn't choose anything else over it. Yeah, it's, it's very well said. You know, it resonates with me as well, sort of I, I made the jump from the traditional finance space a few years ago and part of it too. I, I don't know who I heard described it like this, but you know, once you start to really understand Bitcoin at a deep level, you recognize that contributing to the space in any way you can, applying your skill set in any way you can is sort of the highest form of leverage on like just broader impact on society. And so it is sounds cheesy, but it is somewhat of a higher calling in the sense that once you have have that deep level of understanding, you say, OK, this is the best thing I can spend my time on. And I would be foolish not to. It's it's very, very well said. I want to go back to what you're describing in sort of your journey around, you know, the realizing that this thing lightning was coming out and, and maybe that triggered in your head. Maybe this is how we get back to that original promise of peer-to-peer digital cash. And I would love to hear, you know, your thoughts and perspectives on from that time period. So you know, say 2017 to now the, the sort of progression and the advancement of lightning infrastructure. Generally speaking. I think broadly for people on the edges or, or taking a cursory view at this may lament sort of where we are with lightning in terms of its, its progression and advancement. But as someone's, you know, being there from the early days and really, you know, building on this building this infrastructure very, you know, very deeply I'd, I'd love your thoughts on, you know, your view of sort of state of the Lightning Network today. What else needs to be done? But really, you know, provide some context for where we are relative to to 2017. Definitely. So when I started in, in late 2017, early 2018, I, I knew that it's a long journey and we're really running a marathon here. Like unlike other in the ecosystem that were really hyping lightning in, in not really, I don't think it was it was. I think they, they set like their own expectations for likely to succeed really fast. Like we saw that the challenges in the technology. We saw that the the how much building is required in our kind of to bridge the gap between the technology and normies and and we started working initially, even without exploring use cases and go to market. We started the kind of bridging the gaps, bridging the technology gaps that allow us to bring self. For me, lightning is self custodial lightning, but I don't think there's a lot of value in, in building banks Oregon custodial lighting solutions. There are there is some value, but it doesn't manifest the value proposition of Bitcoin. So we started kind of of of, of bridging the technology gaps that existed. We brought lighting to mobile devices. That was kind of the first step, running nodes, running liking nodes in in the context of your mobile device without you having to run a liking node in a in a server environment or as part of a hardware device. That was the first step. We created this notion of an LSP enlightening service provider. This is something that Breeze brought to market. So similarly to the way that you connect to the Internet, you don't know anything about how Internet protocols work as a as a normal user, you just take your router and and and plug it to a socket, your home and you're magically connected to a network called the Internet. We try to bring the same notion to the Latin network and we, we invest, we invented this, this concept of a lightning service provider that magically connects end user to the Latin network and kind of obfuscate all the technical complexities away from end users. You don't need to do channel management, you don't need to deal with inbound liquidity problems. So we tried kind of to, to bridge the, the user experience gap in, in that regard. And I think we came a long way if like if I'm comparing, if I'm rewinding to 2017 to till now, like we didn't have wallets like Breeze, like Phoenix back in the day. And this is something that came out of the work, the collective work of people in the ecosystem, but but it's mostly a Phoenix, the async team and and and us that kind of try to bring self custodial lighting to to the masses. What I learned along the way is that is that technology is just one piece of the puzzle. It's an important piece of the puzzle, but you need to at large. People don't care about Bitcoin like we care about Bitcoin. We like Bitcoin, but people, this is something that's always frustrating when I go to Bitcoin conferences like you, you, you're at a Bitcoin conference, There's thousands of excited, the Bitcoiners talking about the Bitcoin, about Bitcoin. And then you step outside of the venue and you ask someone in the street like what he thinks about Bitcoin. You'll be lucky if they know what Bitcoin is. So no one cares about Bitcoin outside of our bubble. And, and, but I learned and we learned through exploration, through market exploration that there is value proposition to Bitcoin and we just need to manifest the the utility of Bitcoin and to find the right ways of bringing this utility to the masses. It's not about Bitcoin per SE, it's about the the utility that Bitcoin provides. So as the as part of our journey with Breeze, we added some experiences to to to our app. We added the podcast player that allows you to stream Satoshi's to content creator. We were maybe the first or second implementation of what is known now as a podcasting 2.0. We added the point of sale interface to to Breeze that allows merchant to accept payments without the need of a bank account. We've added the marketplace of apps that allowed people to easily buy gift cards in bit refill or do trades on L and market. And every time we've added a new experience to breathe, we, we saw a surge in users, number of transactions, velocity, all the metrics grew by an order of magnitude. So whenever we add, we added something on the, on the technical side, on kind of the implementation detail, I don't know like 0 confirmation channels or, or, or, or UTXO consolidation or whatever we, we done from a technical standpoint, it didn't really move the needle. But whenever we added an interface, a new user experience, then we saw, we saw, we saw a growth. And maybe it sounds stupid in retrospect, but it made us realize that applications and, and meeting people needs, that's the that's the key. Like it's, it's true for every industry, but it's, it's very true for Bitcoin as well. You need to solve real world use cases, real world problems in order to get Bitcoin adoption. So naturally the next step in our revolution was to take the infrastructure that we've built for our wallet and improve that. We, we also incorporated other technologies, green light from lock stream and and now we're doing liquid swaps and we're using balls. But we're kind of try to figure out how instead of building new experiences in Bris, how we can have domain expert and developers integrate Bitcoin payments into their own solutions. And that's what we've been focusing for the past two years. And it's also an iterative, there's also iterations about the the SDK solution. But I think we understand much better now which users need Bitcoin payments and where to meet them. We have a very clear go to market strategy and I'll say a dirty word, but I'll say crypto. There's a lot of crypto users that need Bitcoin as a mean of payment and we intend to meet them and to provide lacking payments and bring lacking payments into a crypto solutions. That's kind of our our our main focus from a business standpoint, that's our main focus right now. But we can also envision how Bitcoin payments and lacking payments are going to be integrated into mainstream solutions down the lock. Spoken like somebody that's been staring into the abyss for a long time because because yeah, I mean, I think this is where we really, you know, Brian had a 10 plus year traditional background or background in traditional finance. I was kind of 10 plus year in traditional technology similar to yourself. And one of the things that's been missing in Bitcoin is what you just said from somebody that's external be like, oh, that makes complete sense. But when you're in Bitcoin and you kind of tink used to tinkering that you have to go through the implementation of the tech is the cool part. And and what I've learned or what I've seen is like I remember like multi sig from the consumer perspective becoming very big in like 1617, but it's really starting to like it took a while to catch up. It took a while to figure out for consumers to leverage. And so the tech is always like ahead by like 3 to 5 plus years until you find the commercial applications in the commercial interest. And so it's always a cousin of what you're describing. I think of as like Frost and all these different implementations around like custody and mini script is like, it's great, but the market has to be able to understand grok, put confidence. And so you're looking at at least five years before anybody's using if, if that because we're going to tinker with it. But to get to market to understand it and then build what's needed or what they're looking for is completely two different things. There's one thing to build what we want. There's another thing to build with the market. Well, a understand and B actually provide value. Yeah, the technology is just the foundation and then you need to iterate with the market in order to find the right product, market fit and to bring the solutions to market. The advantage that I have and I think you guys have as well is that we have some Gray air, like we're not hackers, we're not. We're here to run the marathon and we understand that technology is just one piece of the puzzle. And I think Bitcoin in general, we need more people like that in the ecosystem. It's not just about the technology, it's a lot about marketing. I think we're missing a lot of talented marketers in the Bitcoin ecosystem. I think we're missing product designers. I think we're missing creativity. I think we're missing a lot of stuff that exists that is, that does exist in other other ecosystems. And we're lacking because of our complete 95% technology focus. And it's right, it's, it's true that we're in the technology phase of Bitcoin. Like we're just, we're just taking our baby steps in kind of crossing the chasm, but it doesn't mean that we don't need to kind of pull these people in in order for us to accelerate the go to market process. Yeah, that also, it reminds me of, you know, Roy, you have a a Medium page that has some very insightful commentary on there. And one of the articles that you've written is, is essentially saying Orange Pilling has stopped working, or at least in the traditional sense of what, you know, people have been doing for years in terms of trying to convince people of Bitcoin. And it really resonated with me. And Michael and I have talked about this. But like, you know, the best form of new Bitcoin adoption is, is arguably someone who's using Bitcoin and they don't know it. And that speaks to what you're saying around the actual utility, the use cases, leveraging these superior monetary rails to bring to market experiences that are better and actually unachievable on the traditional rails. And that's, and that I think is the point of, of that piece that you put out, which is basically like, that's a better way of orange peeling you, you do it without even bringing up the word Bitcoin. Yeah, we live in a more in, in a mean culture and orange peeling is a mean and it's been working. I have a friend, Sergey is the CEO of Bit Refill. He always ask like why there are no conferences around VPN, Like why there are no VPN conferences? Why, why are we doing this Bitcoin conferences? And, and that's a, that's a valid question. I think there's a, I'll say something maybe a bit provocative, but I think there's a, there's a lack of confidence among Bitcoiners with this orange peeling. It's either you're in or you're out. It's either you're orange peeled or you're not. And, and, and it's kind of, they are avoiding the real discussion. And the real discussion is what's the value proposition of Bitcoin? And are do people care about the value proposition of Bitcoin? How can we bring the utility of Bitcoin to the masses? Do is there a, a utility that applies to the masses? I think all of these questions are questions that are not being answered. If we'll continue with this orange building and even what Satoshi said, like if you don't get it, I don't have any time to I don't have time to explain to you. That's not the way software expands in the world and that's not the way the technology brings innovation to the world. You don't need to explain the I I have another article where where I I I I compare a Bitcoin payments to digital camera. Like, you know, when the, the digital camera first take it came out, it was used to replace the, the, the film camera and, and it didn't change anything really in the way that users and people behave like they just had a better way to develop pictures, maybe more faster ways to develop picture high quality pictures and, and all of that. But our behavior, our human behavior didn't really change, only the convergence of the digital camera into mobile devices that really kind of brought a, a, a whole set of use cases and really change you human behaviour. Like we can't really eat dinner before taking a picture of it and we can't really interact with other unless it's in an Instagram post or a TikTok story. And, and, and, and, and, and that's the way digital camera actually completely change human behaviour. And I, I don't think we're there yet in terms of Bitcoin. I think Bitcoin has the potential. I'm 100% sure Bitcoin has the potential of changing human behavior. I think the fact that we haven't been able to manifest it, it's, it's our problem and it's a problem that we need to solve. Value need to move the way information moves, the way that we interact with information on the Internet. There's no way that we won't be able to interact with value in the same manner, but we're we're unable to manifest this utility to the masses right now. And instead of trying to do that and trying kind of to find the use cases and to solve the problems and to find where technology converge AI and and and and Bitcoin or or nostril and social and Bitcoin like instead of exploring more uses like that, we're constantly talking about orange building and talking about about all the, the, the, the narrative of of Bitcoin, which is good for creating the 1st kind of the the jump start the the ecosystem. But I don't think it scales, and I think we need to scale through technology. That's exactly right. I mean, we, we talk about this a lot. It's, it's almost feels like you need to make your products if you really want to scale and make it a a big difference is you need to make your products easy enough for somebody that cares nothing about Bitcoin to get access, but with the quality of somebody that's looked at it for 10 years to appreciate right, right. And, and, and that ties in the taste, marketing, all the things that the best entrepreneurs have done, but we're so early. And So what I, I used to say and it got me in trouble, but I, I still believe it is some of the best companies have never been built yet in Bitcoin. And that, and the reason why is because that means that the best entrepreneurs do not even know about Bitcoin. They know about it in the, in the name of Bitcoin, but they don't know about it like the way we understand it. And because of, and it's, it's easy to understand when you think about through the lines because of Bitcoin $66,000, if everybody knew about it or the best entrepreneurs would be $660,000 or $6.6 million. And when those individuals come in and grow Bitcoin deeply, but then also understand commercial behavior and how to market and build products, that's when you get to that. That's when you get to that kind of taste. And historically, everyone that deeply understands Bitcoin, they want to build things for the hardcore person and the hardware person. We can't expect every net new Bitcoin person to come in to to get to that level. It's just not feasible. That's not how people operate. We're going to get to some total addressable market if people like get Bitcoin deeply and they're evangelical and then we end up as AVPN to your analogy of like, there's no more conference. It's just money. It's just the thing that you use. So yeah, it's it's again going back to the abyss when somebody has a background in traditional, you know, technology or entrepreneurship and then has been looking around and it's the idea maze that everyone talks about from an entrepreneurial perspective. It's like everyone knows how successful Amazon's been. Nobody knows how unsuccessful they've been, how many times they've been wrong, right? And then you go through the maze and you back out and you go through the next door and you have to continue to go through until you find the way. There's no other way. And. When you find a way without doing that. Exactly. And when you go through that, you come to these conclusions of like, oh, wait, we've been designing the wrong thing for the for the wrong people. You got to you got to design with them in mind. But at the end of the day, it has to be easy for somebody's grandma to pick up and say, oh, This is why it makes sense. Exactly, exactly. And I agree with you again 100% that we're not there yet. I think that again, the potential of Bitcoin is it's in this, the convergence of it to some other domain that we haven't seen yet. And that's why our mission right now is kind of to lower the barrier of entry of a domain expert to interact with Bitcoin payments. Like it should be that simple for a developer out there to tinker with Bitcoin and to start engaging in, in transferring value. The way we transfer information, it should be kind of on the same, on the same level of ease of use and, and, and basically that's the way we're designing the next, the next wave of the Breeze product is kind of constantly lowering the barrier of entry, constantly making it easier and simpler for other domain expert to tinker with Bitcoin and to integrate Bitcoin. And I think the the potential there is is is huge. Yeah, it makes makes a ton of sense. Maybe you could go a little bit deeper on, you know, particularly what, what Breeze is, is focused on today and how you're, you know, working to achieve that vision that you just outlined of making things more usable, you know, reducing those barriers to entry for developers. And and like Michael is saying, just smart, entrepreneurial people to be able to add value to the space. Yeah, definitely. So, so lightning is complicated. It's it's if you want today without solutions like the bruises, decay to embed the bit. When I say Bitcoin payments, I mean lightning because another one of my articles is where I talk about lightning is the common language of Bitcoin. Like the way Bitcoin speaks right now in terms of payments is through the Lightning network. And we see that where Lightning is becoming the interface of products like Fedi and products like Cashew and products like our Lightning is becoming kind of the interface and the common language which will between different Bitcoin infrastructures. But in order to speak Lightning, you need to do a lot of heavy lifting. What we're trying to do with the Breeze SDK is to obfuscate all the heavy lifting from you, exactly like we what we've done with the Breeze wallet from an end user standpoint, we're trying to do that on the developer. From a developer standpoint, developers don't need to know anything about Lightning. They just need to call an API in order to send payment or receive a payment. And, and we, we, we want to make it simple and, and and stupid for developers to integrate their Bitcoin payments into their solutions. We started off by basically it's an end to end holistic solution. So when I say send payment, I mean that you have a lighting node, you have a built in LSP, you have on chain interoperability. There's another, there's a lot of pillars, technology pillars that that you need to set up in order to kind of to provide this holistic experience. What we're doing at risk right now is iterating on that product and and and and finding ways to make it easier and easier and to kind of obfuscate the the complexities from developers and eventually end users. Our last iteration is what we call a node list implementation. So we have two flavors of the SDK. We have a native implementation where we provide a hosted fully featured lighting node running on the cloud infrastructure using the green light infrastructure from block stream and we have customers like Relay and green from block Stream and and Big Box that integrated. That's the native flavour. But now we added a new flavour to the SDK, which is the nullus implementation. And in the notice implementation, you don't even need to run a lighting node in order to interact with Lightning. The underlying infrastructure is liquid. We're using a Liquid as a way to store Bitcoin for end users and Lightning. The lightning interface is done through a submarine swaps. So if you want to make a lighting payment, you're doing a liquid to lighting swap, you want to receive a lighting payment, you're doing a lighting to liquid swap. And it's kind of what Aqua has in the Aqua wallet, but it's kind of encapsulated in a very simple API that every developers can integrate. And there will be other iterations on the on the bridges decay as well, maybe with stable coins, maybe through other technologies other than Liquid. Yeah, You know, I, I one thing that you mentioned in there going back to lightning being this common language, I think that is perhaps, you know, I think people are beginning to to come to that conclusion. But I think early on, if we rewind, you know, 5-7 years, I think there was more of a thought that, well, you know, there's going to be these different attempts at scaling layers for Bitcoin and you know, maybe it's going to be, you know, winner take most. I think what we've started to see over the past few years is that it's not going to be where to take this. There's going to be many different scaling approaches, scaling methodologies, different layers, whether they're layers, twos, threes, fours, whatever, you know, you want to deem them. But lightning is, is actually different than all those in attempts in the sense that it's this connective tissue that ties all these potential layers together. And that was pretty eye opening for me because I think early on in my understanding I was. You know, a little bit more thinking, well, you know, if lightning doesn't work, then then what's, what's going to be the one that does? And it's, that's not really how I, I think it's now currently playing out. I I agree and from early on the UK you can read my earlier articles. I always said that lightning isn't one-size-fits-all and I think when once you understand, forget the technology. Let's talk about lightning economics. Once you understand the function of the LSV, the cost, let's talk in in, in in startup terms, Let's talk in COC and and LTV terms. Once you start to kind of formalize what's the economics of lightning, you understand that lightning isn't one size feel fits all. And even if you had, then if you don't, if you don't have like the constraint of the Bitcoin mentioned in terms of the number of transactions and the number of channels that you can open and so forth, The economics of lightning, they work. When you understand your users, when you understand the usage patterns, then you can build a solution that accommodates a need, their need, their specific use case. You can't have one LSP, by the way, it's very similar to transitional financial offerings. You, you don't have a one like one bank for all types of users. You have a commercial bank and you have a retail bank and you have different products that service different, different types of users. And it's exactly the same with Bitcoin. You can't have one LSP that serves generically all type of users. You need to tailor the right economics to the right audience. And once you start to understand that, you understand that that there may be other solutions. What I call the last mile problem that not every user will want to pay for a, for a UTXO. If there are users that are not willing to carry the cost of a UTXO, what are the solutions that we offer them? So then emerge solutions like Fediment and ARC. And by the way, we're talking again in very small bubble of a Bitcoin ecosystem, we're ignoring the hundreds of Bitcoin layer tools that are popping up and, and, and, and, and staggering the amount of VC money is funneling their way. So what will be the common language of Babylon and Bhutanics and and and and, and the hundreds of Bitcoin projects that are you can can argue if they're native Bitcoin or not native Bitcoin doesn't really matter. People will use these layer 2 technologies and and, and and. Lightning has a huge advantage in that regard because it doesn't have. You don't have to maintain the global state in lightning. Basically the state of lightning is maintained in the Bitcoin main chain. If all these layer 2's are interacting with the main chain, it means that they can easily have a lightning interface. You can't say that about other layer 2's because if you want to use them as kind of the common interface, that means that they need that every project needs to bring a new stack of state in order to kind of to interact with another layer too. And and the the the the the ingenuity of a, of a channel, of a lighting channel, the fact that it doesn't carry a global state, only the peers need to understand the, the, the intermediate state of, of of the channel. That, I think is very powerful for for lighting to be served as a common language going forward between native Bitcoin and between non-native Bitcoin as well. Does your Bitcoin custody setup keep you up at night? Maybe you still have coins sitting on an exchange worried about hackers. Or maybe you've set up your own self custody, but don't feel safe with your Bitcoin savings stashed on a little plastic device in your desk drawer. Gain Peace of Mind with On Ramp and our multi institution custody solution. Here's how it works. On Ramp creates a dedicated multi sig vault just for you. Three separate institutions each hold a key on ramp bit go and coin cover, but none can move funds unilaterally. Instead, only you have control over your coins. With on ramps multi institution custody, you'll sleep better at night knowing your Bitcoin is stored with best in class security on chain with fault tolerant multi sig. If you believe your Bitcoin is going to be worth a lot someday, don't jeopardize that future by exposing your coins to hackers on exchanges, $5 wrench attacks in the real world, or perhaps most importantly, the risk that you might screw something up with a highly technical self custody set up on ramps. Multi institution custody eliminates single points of failure, reduces your personal attack surface and technical burden, and provides access to financial services that allow you to confidently secure your Bitcoin, including inheritance planning, insurance backed warranties for all balances and transactions, low cost trading, and more. Bitcoin is a once in a species asset, Secure it right. Learn more at onrintbcoin.com. Yeah, it's super fascinating. There's multiple levels. This might be like a weird or dumb analogy, but I think of it as like the continents in the globe or like the main chain. And then the the ocean is like the the universal way to get across and you don't care how you get the parcels to the other thing. And like, so the ocean like provides you this experience and whether it's a ship or the different type of ship, how it gets there, you just care about it getting there. And then you take different forms of like trade-offs with the counterparty risk. And then ultimately, you never know, you just get adoption and somebody can pontificate which one's right or wrong, but at the end state, it's over time the Lindy proves how which one was right or wrong. And it's still too early on certain respects. And everybody has their own idea as a counterparty risk and what they care about. But the end of the day, like we need the other 7 billion people to get on board. And if it works out and it wasn't our vision of it, it doesn't really matter when you think about it. It's what only matters what consumers use. And this kind of ties into it's really interesting on the this notion. I would love to hear more about block stream and and and the what's the what's? Their liquid. Liquid, because liquid's been looking out there for a while, right? And I think of Liquid as this hybrid of kind of fettiment structure. It was kind of what we do in multi institution custody. It's this notion of like the keys, you're pushing the the risk to a trusted group of key partners. It has counterparty risk, but at the end of the day, it allows for a more seamless transfer of BTC through a programmatic way that was historically a little bit harder when everyone had to open up a channel. So it ties the Bitcoin over here. So when Pierre first brought this up, I thought it was insanely elegant for what you guys are trying to achieve, because it's not trying to achieve all the bitcoins stored. It's trying to like move these assets over in a way that reduces counterparty risk, but also increases the ability and for volume. And so I'd love to just hear that was a good like understanding of it on a high level and then how you guys came about that and where you see that going. Definitely. So liquid is in my mind is and and and you alluded to that is a global federation basically. So I I really like for example the Fedi project and Fedi Mint is a technology. The problem with Fedi Mint is someone there's someone needs to set up a federation and there's no there's no global federation in the fediment conceptual like you need to find the federation members, you need to to to make them the trustees of the federation and setting up locally for regions for organizations. And that's something that we have very hard time using because you want a plug and play product. So if you want a plug and play product, you basically need to opt into a global federation. And when you take a look around, Liquid is a great technology for that because you have already the federation set up, you have already, the trust model is already very explicit and very well explained. And now if you're opting into accepting the trust profile, there's not a lot of work that needs to be done. You just need to create the Lightning interface on top of Liquid in order to speak Lightning as a common language. Not everyone will accept Liquid as as, as the global federation. And that's why we need to aspire to build a more native Bitcoin solution. Because by the end of the day in Liquid, you peg BTC to LBTC and, and and and you trust the, the, the federation, the the federation to with your BTC, with your peg BTC and you convert them to LBTC. And there's no unitorial exit without the permission. It's becoming from a permissionless chain to a permission chain. You need the permission of the federation to peg out. But once you accept this trust profile, I think it's a much easier solution than run a lighting node natively on a mobile device or in the cloud. Doesn't matter, because once you have a Lightning native lighting solution you need, even if the state isn't global, you need to start managing the state. That's one. Secondly, there's no way to share the cost of a UTSO. The the, the biggest advantage of a solution, a side chain like liquid that it allows you and all of these solutions are Fedimi side chains. They're all trying kind of to share the cost of the UTXO. That's kind of the, the, the underlying technology. It means that you don't need to have the real estate allocated in, in, in, in, in the main chain. You can have a shared apartment where the real estate is shared among all the, the, the, the resident of the apartment. And if we're going back to your analogy of Lightning being kind of the railways, Lightning he's the railways. I think he's the highway. But when you get into a specific piece of real estate, the question is whether you get into an individual. An individual can buy private homes and private houses and buy real estate on the main chain. That's kind of the villa, but you can also get into a shared apartment building, which is kind of my analogy to a side chain like Liquid where a lot of resident share the same real estate. And that's what we're trying to do with Liquid. I think Arc is a very promising technology that is trying to do the same even in a better way because you're not using a different asset, you're using a native Bitcoin with with other trade-offs. Of course there's always trade-offs. So I think going forward, yeah, I, I, I, I'm, I'm really, I really like what you said Brian, because I think the future is not is is is is very diverse in terms of solution. I think we're going to see a lot of different solutions that are, that are tailoring or or serving different use cases and different needs. They will all choose the the best solutions for their problem and let me become kind of the glue between all these different technologies. Yeah, no, absolutely. I, I, it always comes back to trade-offs. And the really interesting thing about liquid to me and it, it's sort of aligns with everything we've we've talked through here is a sense that, you know, I, I forget exactly the, the year that Liquid went live. But you know, I think there had there hadn't been a ton of adoption and I think it was primarily a result of people being concerned around the trade-offs of having that peg in peg out situation and you know, an alternative token where there's a lot of. Not sure. I'm not sure I agree. I think liquid suffered from the same disease that Bitcoin in general suffered and it's a too much focus on technology less focus on go to market. I think liquid if liquid liquid add USD before Toronto like like if liquid was tried to to kind of fulfill a very specific use case, I think they would have killed it. I think liquid tried to be the Jack of all trade and they really they weren't able kind kind kind of to find the right product market fit for liquid. So they tried to do trades and they try to do save a coin and they try to do so many things and to be a generic infrastructure which is good. Now we companies like Breeze, like there are other companies that are building on Liquid Stocker and even the first ARC implementations are being done on Liquid. Now there are companies that are building on Liquid as a technology and and I think that's the way to bring Liquid to market. Yeah, absolutely. I think we where I was going to go with that. That's helpful context. And I think you're right. I think where I was going with it was I think there has been a bit of a realization more recently that it just makes things easier. Like it just, it allows these more commercial use cases to be more accessible to folks and, and I think developers are, are rocking that as well. And, and more, so more be more willing to, to work in lightning or work on liquid and integrate liquid. I'm curious, going back to this concept of the peg in peg out, like, what are your thoughts around like is a, is a quote UN quote trustless peg system feasible? What's the closest we have to it? And how do you, how do you think that plays out over the next 5-10 years of development? Yeah, it's a great question. I I think there are 222 pillars. 1 is how to make it less trusted. Meaning in Liquid, for example, now you need the 11 out of 15 signatures in order to to, to do a peg in peg in peg out. I think with the, with the type of integration you can, you can increase the order of magnitude of, of people participate, participating in a in a liquid federation and that's going to change and reduce the trust significantly. That's one aspect. The other aspect is projects like a bit VM and and for example, there's a rootstock that is working on a trust list peg in peg out using bit VMXI think it's visible. I think it's early days, but I think beat VM for doing a trustless peg in peg out is a very promising technology. And I think we're going to see eventually. I, I'm not a prophet, I can can tell you exactly when, but I think we'll see major technical advances in doing trustless peg in peg out into side chains using projects like beat VM. Very cool. One, one question a little bit sort of higher level, almost philosophical. And I've, I've read your commentary on this as well. But I think for a while there was this connotation that in terms of the, the monetary sort of use cases of money and specifically Bitcoin, that there may have been a sort of a logical progression of first Bitcoin needs to be a store of value, Then it moves to a medium of exchange and then it's a unit of account. And, and I've sort of come to a bit of a realization from from listening to folks like yourself. And then we also had Fitzstein, Alex, Alex Goldstein on the pod of a few months ago and he had some similar comments around it. You know, it's almost like the the medium of exchange or the store of value use case, I should say, is actually sort of just a sub segment of the medium of exchange use case in the sense that it's just you're, you're pushing out the duration of that spend, right. So it's exactly, I'm not spending it today, but in 10 years I might want to spend it. So it's still a meeting of exchange use case. It's just what is your time horizon on that? Curious your thoughts on any of that And and did you come to that conclusion more recently or have you always thought about it like no? I explained why I started Breeze. I wanted to kind of, to, to help Bitcoin transfer from from or kind of to break the, the store of value narrative and, and, and kind of manifest the, the, the, the medium of exchange aspect of Bitcoin. That's why I started with. But I, I, I wrote an article called the false dichotomy between a store of value and medium of exchange because the discourse that I kind of was fed up with the discourse of people trying kind of to push the narrative of Bitcoin is first store of value, then a medium of exchange. And I wanted to kind of to explain why I see as the the two reinforce each other. I agree with Alex. I think most of the assets in the world are both and I think Bitcoin is both is a, it's a store of value and it's a medium of exchange. And no, it's not still, it's not yet a unit of account, but but if you take a look at Bitcoin and you and you understand, and in in the article, I give example, like historical example about the other, other assets like ingots and, and and gold and even the US dollar. How the medium of a change aspects are intertwined with the store value aspects of the of the of the asset. You understand that you can't separate one of the other and and. And store value is a medium of exchange, just in a long time span. And the medium of exchange is a store value on a very short time scale. The number one use case of Bitcoin is what people are trading Bitcoin in, in huge volumes. Like people maybe aren't aware, but Bitcoin is an asset of a $1 trillion valuation right now. But in every year we we we trade Bitcoin. In 2022, it was something between a $15 trillion to $38 trillion. That's kind of the velocity of Bitcoin. So people trade Bitcoin a lot. And the number one use case of Bitcoin is trading it as a speculative asset. When you trade Bitcoin as a speculative asset, is it a store of value or a medium of exchange? Like, yeah. It's an interesting point you brought up because we experienced this in the Middle East without like saying too much, we resolve between India and like Middle Eastern countries where there is very wealthy people that exchange very large sums of Bitcoin for land and other things. And they and they don't hold the Bitcoin for very long. It's just, you know, talking about like 10s, if not hundreds of millions of dollars. And they're they're effectively doing what you're describing and they know it's not going to 0, but they're also using it as a way to move capital across countries. Yeah, even gold is traded on one $50 million a day, like that's the the transaction volume of gold. So in the in the article, basically I claim that there's no such thing. There are, by the way, edge cases. I give example of cigarettes in prison, for example. It's a great medium of exchange, but they go stale after a few weeks. So it's not a store value or something like a stolen Picasso. Yes, it's a great store value, but you can't really exchange it. So there are edge cases, but most of the assets are always both. Definitely Bitcoin. It doesn't mean that Bitcoin doesn't have it's shortcoming as a medium of exchange. And it doesn't mean that volatility in their adoption doesn't mean that capital tax gain in their adoption. Yes, there are still problems to be solved, but Bitcoin is being used every day a lot as a medium of exchange. And I've kind of fed up with the means of, OK, you don't don't want to buy coffee with Bitcoin or whatever. No, it's not about that. It's about how do we make it the best asset in the world. And in order to make it the best asset in the world, it needs to be tradable. Yeah. Roy, what would you say the. Biggest difference in your mind is from gold and Bitcoin. Personally, I think there's going to be something different for. I don't know if there's anything objectively that would be said, but. No, I think also first I think all this stuff about intrinsic value is I don't subscribe to that. People don't use gold because it's a good conductor, because you can make a jewelry out of it and site goes for Bitcoin like the value that we give to Bitcoin is the value that we think is a collective. Bitcoin is war. I think you can't really compare Bitcoin to gold because of the the the physical property like it's a native digital asset. Gold isn't a native digital asset and you can't make it a native digital asset. So for me, the fact that you can move Bitcoin at the speed that you move information, the fact that you can have a global currency based on Bitcoin, the, the, the, the divisibility of Bitcoin, all the medium of exchange properties of Bitcoin for me are far better than than gold. And that's why I think Bitcoin has a potential to, to, to take on gold as an asset. But I think that the key is by manifesting the the medium of exchange properties of Bitcoin. Yeah, no, I totally agree. I think, you know, part of the, you know, part of the narrative of adoption for the past few years have been a one like, you know, the institutional players are getting involved and for them the the common theme is, OK, Bitcoin is digital gold and and frankly, it just doesn't do it justice, though to your point is like it it because it is actually an improvement on gold in so many different ways. I forget who said this, but I saw it on on Twitter a few weeks ago. But it's like Bitcoin isn't digital gold. Gold is just analog Bitcoin in the sense that for for thousands of years, it's like the best we could come up with to, to have this thing that was scarce, durable, portable in some sense, but we didn't have the technology for Bitcoin, but gold was the best we got to. Yeah, and everyone mentioned Russian law, of course, like and they don't understand that Bitcoin is superior or medium of change. We didn't have that in the past. I'll call out Sailor for a second, if I may. If you saw Sailor video from today, like there's a clip running on Twitter where he talks about the crypto anarchist or or whatever trying to sell their hardware wallets. Like he basically called out the, the, the folks that are preaching not your keys, not your coin as a crypto anarchist and because they're selling some agenda. Well, Michael Saylor also is selling an agenda and the agenda and and one Bitcoin is being portrayed as a medium, as a store of value and not as a medium of exchange because these individuals Sailor wants you to buy micro strategy stocks and the ETFs, the the black rocks want you to buy their ETFs. It's a very once you this narrative. Once you have this narrative of Bitcoin as as an asset that is not transferable and you don't need to own directly. Yes, why not opt in opt to buy an ETF or to buy a micro strategy stock. So everyone is pushing their own agenda. Everyone everyone has an angle. I have an angle. I admit that that is disclaimer. I want people to use Bitcoin as a medium of change and that's the agenda that I'm pushing. So when you, when you, when you read something, when you and again, we're coming back to the meme culture that we all live in. When you see a meme, when you see kind of a narrative that is is is is there, try to understand like what's the agenda behind the narrative and understand why Bitcoin is being portrayed as a store of value, because the reality shows definitely not just the store of value. Yeah, that's, it's such a great point. We talk about this a lot. Everybody has their agenda, everybody's pushing it. But this goes back to what we talked about on, you know, which vessel is the best to get used. Well, it's still early. So you have to look at the agenda. You have to look at context, instincts, commercialization, all the things in the market will determine it. I think where Sailor and both sides of those are are right and wrong in that like Sailor is saying that we need to institutionalized the space, we need, you know, regulations or whatever, and there's a little bit there on the other side is not your keys, not your coins is an important function to prove that the system's right. But both sides are wrong. In that if it goes back to the self custodial or you started Lightning as non custodial and you realize well maybe not everybody cares about that. In the same way. If we expect everyone to write 12 words on a plastic device, they may never come into the space. And do we care about them doing that or do we want them in the space? In the same way, Sailor has to put air cover over the fact he's a centralized custodian and he's at any point at risk of having all of his assets lost. And we talked about this because we basically sit in the middle and we say that multi institution custody might actually be a way the vision of the future looks like, because you basically get the benefits of both while being able to always take delivery and keep the system honest, which ties back to the, the, the, the mints and liquid. It's like, I think a big part that the market has missed is the fact that I'll take a little bit of different stance to give you guys. Like if, if we all agree gold was money as the bedrock of society for thousands of years, right? So it's not 12 trillion. It's just the, the way capital was exchanged that I take the, the stance that the difference between gold and Bitcoin, if we had to pin it to 1 is, is script is multi seg because you take the single is an asset for the very first time that's universally accessible, but can be held by different people. It's basically governance built into the protocol, built into that one piece of gold and that had never been done before. And that's how you can get second layers. That's how you can basically put all these mints together. And that's the like innovation in mind, not the innovation, but it's the thing that makes it different because to your point where you were saying about we can transfer Bitcoin around, even though it's not the same, it kind of is the same. Like you can transfer dollars around a wire. You can do a bunch of stuff theoretically around a gold standard, but you still have counterparty. Not without. Exactly. Not without the third party. That's that's the value proposition. But it's very similar with like anything we talked about today, there's still some layer of counterparty risk and we all had to figure out what we could when it comes to definitely that. And so the idea is. Well. Well, how do you get to the fastest point to take the delivery of that? That's where like dollars in gold are very different, right? It's because there's too many claims on the dollars and you can basically, you know, they the seasonable, all the things we know about the dollar standard on Bitcoin, it's a little bit different because you can keep the system honest. You effectively like if a bank run happens, you can you can move the assets over. So that's like in my. Mind that big differentiator is this notion of governance built into the bank and then it allows for the movement to be the LAR bill to sound. You move the money and that confiscation risk becomes a lot different of a profile. Yeah, I, I, I tend to agree. I think, yeah, yeah, it's a, it's a long conversation. Like I don't know if we can get into that, but basically if everyone could own their own UTXO, I'm not sure you need multi CI. Think multi C comes into play where you're trying kind of to share the custody of a UTXO. What would everyone but so this is the this is I think the big question is how does somebody let's pretend technically that you as possible to own your own UTXO, How would that be done? Like where would the portions store it? OK. So I think that's it. That's it. There's an entirely there. There's I, I think unlike crypto by the way, I think we're not exploring that enough. I think there's a lot of ways to make it easier for users to hold their their keys without going into multisync. Multisync is one solution, but there are others. It's it is a matter of trust. Basically, you need to trust the the your keys with and to kind of integrate it into your existing trust profile. I'll give you an example with Breeze and we've been called out a lot on on, on the fact that we don't share mnemonics in the Breeze world. When you download the Breeze wallet, we don't really let you have like the regular wallet where you need to write down your 12 words. We actually use Google and Apple, and the assumption is that if you trust if you're using Android or if you're using your iPhones, you have trust in Google or Android. And most of the users want to leverage that trust in order to store their keys. Yes, it's not acceptable for for all use cases. I won't trust Google with $1,000,000, but I will trust Google with $1000. Me as personally as a user. So I think there's a landscape of multiple solutions and multi multiple trust profiles that are unexplored. Yes, I agree with you. Multi sig is going to be definitely a problem, a problem solution in in in that landscape, but it's not the sole solution. I think there will be others and if you take a look at other crypto projects on how did they solve this product, There are integrating the saving and the trust profile into identity solutions and other solution that are outside the multi Seagram. Yeah, it makes sense. I think the big thing where I can't in a it goes to talk in her book, but I just can't get away from we have helped a lot of people like on board to to multi sig. I was previously at Unchained and it's less about multi sig. It's more about human component where I think like Fetty and also yeah, where I think Fetty and blockstream have really missed a boat and which are reference took them time to get traction. And at the end of the day, like money is a social construct and you need counterparties that are Val, what is the term that are like vetted, that have liabilities, that have balance? That you already trust, right, as a human. And that's what Saylor is, is, is talking about. I agree with Saylor in that regard. Like if you have a bank and you trust the bank as a, as a, as a citizen of the United States and you and, and if we'll be able to onboard the bank to Bitcoin and you trust the bank, why not have the bank custody your, your key? Great. That's because it's a social contract that you already exist. I think it doesn't mean that Bitcoin doesn't offer a wide spectrum of other solution and a more sophisticated banks to be built on top of the Bitcoin technology and even allowing you the freedom to do peer-to-peer transactions or so. Yeah, yeah, the the social constructs a big, I think gap in the market like as you referenced, you need humans to pick up the phone and talk to and know they're accountable. And it when everything's ephemeral and anonymous and because very difficult to use products because money, again, you want recourse, you want accountability when it comes to your money. Yes, and as a as a child, you want to get your allowance from your parents and so you trust your parents, so you can trust your parents with a key. I think all these social constructs like we need to think in a way that normal people are thinking, but there's a lot to do what I'm trying to tell you. I think we haven't explored enough this this space from from a key saving, key holding, key protecting standpoint because we've built product for ourselves. Yeah. And one just thing to bring up is like the unknown unknowns, this notion of like negative space. I don't even know if this is the right term, but effectively the thing that is missing, that no one knows is missing. And what I would describe that is not your keys, not your coins. In 12 words, everyone says it's easy. And sure it's easy for anybody to do it for $10 a $100, a $1000 if you study for three years, maybe for all of your wealth. The reality is it is very hard for somebody to park a material amount of their wealth with no counterparty alone on an island. And so sure, it keeps the system honest, but B, how much capital does it keep out of the space? And if the ultimate goal is to meet people where there are, are there other solutions to bring to market and then they can initially, they can never really graduate. And if that solution is not good, well, it'll fail and the next one will will come about. But to assume that that is the only thing while we sit at a trillion. Like I'm convinced if we had better solutions we'd get $10 trillion because people are scared to put their money here because they do not want to end up in a landfill or half by N Koreans which are the common. Tropes and that goes back to their orange feeling that Ryan mentioned. Like why I am against orange feeling is because basically part of orange feeling is people telling you, OK, that's what you need to do. You need to save this 12 board, but that's not the way you bring technology to market. You need to explore the space. You need to find solution, innovative solution. That's and there's no one way to do things. No, there's a diversity of ways and and I agree with you that we haven't even scratched the surface when it comes to to to multi sig products. Yeah, and the only thing about custody, and maybe this goes for everything, but definitely custody is there is no perfect solution. There's just perfect trade-offs. And so everyone loves to argue about it when the reality is there is there is no solution. It's everybody just has their own risk profile on the tax surface. They're trying to. Oh, and it's always moving. It's always changing depending on where they live, who their counterparties are, where their government's doing, what their family what how, how much capital or notoriety they have and who's targeting them. But you think we kind of have it figure out in terms of technology, you think like in terms of the products that we can build in order to help people do become custody. I don't think we're there yet at all. Like we're just taking baby steps. What products do we have like? Occurring. Yeah, yeah, that's, it's definitely true. I mean, even like somebody that wants to step in from an exchange or participate, it's very hard for them to even cryptographically. Like when you think about sharding of a private key, like that is generally pretty proprietary. Like somebody has to be very technical to be able to handle that on an institute. On an individual level. Being outside of that, you're using a Ledger or treasure or coal card to secure or you're having to do, you know, TPMS and the whole process. But even that alone, that being more universal, would open up more ability or more of a design surface for people to think about custody. Yeah. But even I'll just give you an example from something that it's not technology at all. Like why there's no company like a Brinks or something that are are opening that physical location guarded that that people can save their keys there. Like why why don't we have that in place? I don't know. I don't have a good answer for that. And it's well, you're, you're right, because we or talks globally with key holders. And one of the things we've I've always envisioned was the wherever the bullion depositories are, right where people recognize Switzerland, Singapore, Germany, like their prime to be key holders, not only from their clients, from their perspective, right as gold, you know, Bitcoin E tech gold, they know. How to save stuff? Yeah. They can save it and they can also monetize from the the the demonetization of the gold. It's a it's a perfect synergy for that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This. Is this has been a, this has been a fascinating conversation, boys. I know we're, we're, we're bumping up on time and want to be respectful of your time. Roy, was there anything else you wanted to mention or, or where can people find you and and learn more about Breeze and what you guys are doing? So our website is Breeze dot technology breeze without an E at the end BREEZ. So so our website, feel free to take a look at the medium. It our medium where I post a lot of articles about things that annoy me in Bitcoin, Yeah. I'm easily reachable. Feel free to the Emmy on Twitter, on LinkedIn, on whatever. Right, Thanks so much for coming on. It was it was an awesome episode. Like you said, we just got to see where it goes and I think it went to a lot of good places and look forward to having you having you on again. Thank you so much, Michael. Thank you, Brian. Thank you for. Awesome. Thanks for right take care. Bye. Bye. Thanks for listening to this week's episode of the show. 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