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It all comes down to computers communicating. The information superhighway can be a confusing mix of on ramps and off ramps. Bitcoin is worthless artificial gold. Is it still rat poison? Probably rat poison squared. We need to get into the world of OK, this is actually foundational technology. What the Internet of money? Does is it creates? A single network which can do a microtransaction to a giga transaction. The Internet is going to be one of the major forces for reducing. The role of gun. The one thing that's missing that that will soon be developed is a reliable E cash. Welcome back to Final Settlement everyone. This is episode 16 great show for you guys today we have the great guy Swan, prolific Bitcoin educator and and host of Bitcoin audible, which I'm sure many of you are familiar with. We have lots to get to today, but it is a a, you know, somewhat of an important day. It's Election Day here in the United States and so. Twitter social is going to be so unfun today. Just. A lot of doom scrolling today. Imagine. All the numbers are so good. We're totally winning. There's no market charge. Too many of these people have voted. I mean, it's been a crazy just few weeks, few weeks. It's like you can't, you can't look at anything objectively and say like this means anything. So yeah, it's been a whirlwind of a few weeks leading up to this. But yeah, welcome to the show, guy. Happy to happy. To have you and thank you. This will be a great conversation, but on the on the topic of the election, I mentioned before we hit record, I wrote a a piece for on ramp about a year ago today and it was called a political money and it was really looking at Bitcoin, you know, from its foundational level. The, the core protocol itself is, is in my mind a political in many ways just in terms of, you know, at the core of it, you know, you're trusting math instead of fallible humans, right? And part of what I also wrote about is, is looking at the trajectory of traditional assets, you know, most importantly the dollar, that have become increasingly politicized over the past several decades. And Bitcoin stands in contrast to that in that, you know, at its core, it's harder to politicize. But the interesting paradox that I called out was that, you know, and and I wrote this about 12 months ago, but it was really, you know, really past 12 to 24 months where I started to see Bitcoin become politicized in the sense of certain politicians understanding what it represented to a certain cohort of voters. And that being really, you know, freedom money at its core. And so, you know, those politicians latching onto it as a, you know, a talking point, something that they would be willing to vouch for if they think that they could win those votes. So guy, I'm, I'm very curious to get your thoughts on on this concept of Bitcoin being a political. But then the, the very clear trajectory that we've seen of, you know, the past year or two where it's really, you know, Bitcoin has has shifted the Overton window in some sense where politicians are talking about this regularly now. Like I think if we just rewind 4 years, like that seems kind of insane that that's where we're at today. But yeah, would love your thoughts on any of that. Yeah, so I've, I think I've probably had posts and maybe even episodes on the show where I talked about like Bitcoin as a political money because like from a purely like practical sense or I guess technical sense from just like pure like what is Bitcoin? There's no politics, right, Right. It is it is genuinely a political money. It does not and cannot care about anything. Whereas you talk about like the dollar being politicized. Think it's a great example because you can see like the dollar is literally being used as a political weapon against people because it is permissioned and because it is controlled, it can be selectively manipulated for a certain cohort. Like so that someone who has the wrong political opinion or lives in the wrong director, a jurisdiction literally does not use the same money. It doesn't work the same. And in that sense, like Bitcoin is pure a political money. But the the thing that gets me about this, and I kind of go back and forth between whether or not it's an accurate description, because a lot of politics is about controlling other people. A lot of political ideology is about everyone should do this and if they don't, the state should force them. And in that sense, Bitcoin can't be a political in that environment. It's like saying a gun is a political Sure, from a technical sense, there is no politics in a gun. But between a socialist and an individualist, somebody who actually believes in freedom, a gun is a very political tool, you know, like, so when it's kind of boots on the ground, which political ideology does it actually defend or enforce? Like from an individual perspective, it's totally apolitical. Like whether you are a socialist or whether you are a, you know, freedom loving, whatever you're crazy right wing, the white supremacist or Nazi or a Russian or kid in China doesn't matter. It is perfectly apolitical according to the individual. But according to the group, there are very different ideologies that can be either defended like a socialist can defend themselves and do everything like a politically with Bitcoin. But the socialist ideology cannot sustain itself using Bitcoin because it literally negates one of their fundamental tools of collective control, one of the most important tools of collective control. So it's weird because like an add an individual technical, like just purely what is it level? Of course it's apolitical. It doesn't do anything. It doesn't have a notion of who is, who is using it. That's why we say, you know, Bitcoin is for everyone, right? Can't persecute you for your religion or your sexual orientation or anything like that. But from a collective sense, when many people are using Bitcoin, there are certain political ideologies that just won't work. And that's a really interesting dynamic. And it makes it hard for me to say like I completely understand the argument on both sides, you know, like whether it is a political money or very, very political money in a certain regard. So I guess maybe it's like the scale or where in kind of like the layers of politics you're talking about and and how because. Yeah, is, is sort of what you're getting at. And correct me if I'm wrong, but like for the individual, like you're saying like Bitcoin as a tool is a political. But if you Fast forward, I guess Bitcoin adoption to it being more of a ubiquitous tool and in an entire community or say country is using Bitcoin, then there are some parameters within which it made. It's not that it's political the tool, but it's there's certain political realms where that could go in a, in a fully bitcoinized world. Is that kind of what you're getting at? Yes, yes. And I have some better way to say it maybe. Maybe the way to say it is from the individual perspective, Bitcoin is completely and completely apolitical. But the, and that's like Bitcoin the thing or the money. But Bitcoin as a network is actually a set, is actually a political structure. It's actually a set of rules. You know, all politics says is a set of rules. Bitcoin is the network is a set of rules. That is inherently political because it is in that environment. It's rules about who owns what, how you determine ownership and who has the rights to do what in the network. That's a political institution. It's just one that doesn't have goals. Ideology then that Bitcoin represents is a meritocracy, right guys? It's not a system which if your system that you're supporting is 1 based on, you know, socialism or communism or is some, you know, the, you know, the 5th pillar of the Communist manifesto is central banking. So if those are some of the core tenets of your group or like what you style as an individual level, this Bitcoin system and network is not going to work for you and doesn't align with the way that you want to, you know, try to better the world or whatever your aims are, whether they're nefarious or in your mind, good. Because you can't do things such as redistribute wealth at will. Yeah. You don't have that centralization of control that allows you to redistribute resources and in whatever way you see fit. Again, whether you perceive that to be for for better, for worse, Bitcoin doesn't allow that for better, for worse, and we would say for far better. But the playing field is equal in level and the rules are fixed and the money is fixed. Yeah. And it's kind of like a everyone is equal before the network or everyone is equal before the cryptography. Like outside of that, you know, it's your obligation, it's your responsibility to deal with that. But in the context of Bitcoin, it doesn't matter if you can sign for it, it's yours because the rules are independent of the like we, it's, it is, it is a completely unique and completely independent set of property rights, a system of property rights in the digital realm, in my opinion. And I think that inherently can't be a political from that top down view, but from a personal perspective, like from the individual using Bitcoin, there is no politics in Bitcoin, you know. And so it's, it's a very, very interesting thread to pull on. I've done it for for many times, many times a long time. Yeah. And, and it's, it's also been interesting that I think, you know, something that supports everything that we just walk through is that there's, you know, it's hard to estimate the, the size of this cohort, but there's a cohort now in America where Bitcoin support for Bitcoin is, you know, these people are single issue voters. And so is that political? Like if, if, you know, if this is the only thing a certain a growing cohort of the country cares about, then it's entered the political realm in the sense of the existing parties, the existing political infrastructure needs to now consider this thing. And so that's, that's just been a fascinating thing to watch play out. Certainly makes it politically important, yes, you know, it certainly puts it on the political playing field. It's it's a ball in play. That's for sure. And it's funny to me, I was thinking about this this morning. Like I would say over the summer, you know, after after Nashville, I think there was sort of the expectation that the game theory we all like to talk about would play out and ensue. And I don't think we really saw that to the extent that maybe people expected to back then in terms of the Democrats, you know, trying to match Trump's favor and excitement about the, you know, the Bitcoin community and, and reaching that that now single issue voting bloc. I would say, I would say there's a couple comments did play out. I would say the game theory did play out, but it played out with them shutting down their attacks of it like they're just like shut up, stop talking about it right because. We. Look like the opposite of this. It is it is the game theory playing out, but it's not the game theory that, you know, many assumed of them like, Oh well, we're just going to try to go harder. They're not trying to out compete Trump. They're just trying to not look like the thing that makes Trump look good. Yes. So that's fair. They don't like it and they don't want to like it, but they can't say anything bad about it because now they know what that means and what that's going to look like when you're holding it up. You know which which one of these pictures you know. You know when you're making that comparison. No, that's, that's a great point. Are you ready to secure your future with Bitcoin? At Onramp, we're revolutionizing how you can save for retirement. Onramp has just launched the industry's first Bitcoin IRA product with multi institution custody, designed to give you unparalleled security, transparency, and Peace of Mind. With Onramp, you can verify your assets on chain and protect them with the support of three independent institutions, reducing risks and enhancing security. At Onramp, we believe that Bitcoin is the most important asset of the 21st century. The hard part is securing it right. There are shortcomings with keeping your coins on an exchange, but also with setting up your own self custody arrangement. On Ramp solves for these concerns. Our multi institution custody solution maximizes security and minimizes counterparty risk, ensuring that your Bitcoin remains securely in your possession and provides built in inheritance planning to ensure your family is protected as well. On Ramp provides Peace of Mind for your Bitcoin journey, whether for your whole stack or for part of it as a complement to your existing self custody setup. For more information about our services as well as our new Bitcoin IRA product, check us out at on rampbitcoin.com. But another sort of a transition to you know, you mentioned this there are very you know, there are many very unique attributes of Bitcoin. I think one of them that is worth talking about is you know it's this is a digital bearer instrument and that just really hasn't existed ever in human history. And so I think as a species we are still grappling with and learning to understand what we do with that type of asset, right. It's been 1516 years. We have hardware devices, we have third party custodians. Oh wow, we 16 years, didn't we? Yeah, yeah. Well, since the White Paper 16 on January 3rd. But that's I mean that's a relatively short period of time in terms of technical. Learning to drive. Technical, technological adoption like that's a, that's a blip in terms of monetary history and absolute blip, right. So I guess where I'm going with this is what are your thoughts on Bitcoin's unique nature in this way of, of how it needs to be secured and stored and how you've thought about that over the years? And maybe how you're thinking has evolved from when you first got into Bitcoin to now and how you think about securing, you know, your Bitcoin well into the future, handing it off to your kids, their kids. Like how, how do you think about that generally and, and really compare and contrast it to, you know, anything else anyone could ever hold? It's very different. And I think that there's, yeah, there's there's a learning curve obviously associated with it, but I think it's it's on us as Bitcoiners and as a Bitcoin community to not only educate on best practices, but also think of new ways and innovate to make it easier to store this asset in a secured way. Yeah, so my feelings have been in the same direction, but they have gotten far. The conviction on it has gotten much, much deeper the more time has gone on. I don't do anything that's not multi sig anymore. Almost like anything on chain like the only thing that's not multi sig, which is actually funny it's it is multi sig is lightning. Multi lightning is multi sig too. So I don't I don't do anything that's not multi sig basically, except for like my hottest of hot wallets. It's just like a single key for you know, little day-to-day stuff. But for the things that I am doing, spending out of that, I move from a multi sig in chunks when I need it and then back, back and forth from it. And having, you know, a lot of people like it's so easy to do the mantra of not your keys, not coins. And, and I think it's important to remember that those tag lines and the the kind of mottos of the space are guidelines. Like you have to consider the situation, You have to consider the person you're talking to. And I have on boarded a lot of people into Bitcoin over the years a lot. And it is not easy. It is not easy. So many people are confused, So many people need help and that journey from like knowing nothing and never having any Bitcoin to genuinely holding your keys in a way that matters is not sit down with them for 10 minutes, You know, like that's a typically very long journey to the point that like to the point that like I worry about some people that I've gotten into Bitcoin, like I don't like it stresses me out that I feel like I could have, I've put them at risk. And I mean, of course, it's not like, you know, my obligation to fix their whole setup and do everything for them and, you know, keep their seed because that defeats the whole purpose of the seed. But it does feel that way, you know, it doesn't. It doesn't help that like, I know the risk and I know what they could do and what they're likely to do. Like my contractor or whatever I've been slowly working my way towards getting him in a real setup. He's more of a buy on Coinbase and then accidentally buy some shit coin that Coinbase told him to and then lose it all because they delisted the shit coin. And just like real true story I was. I'm so mad at Coinbase but God what a shitty service. Anyway, so I've been trying to figure out how to assist and how to set up somebody's multi sig to negate lost keys. Because I think since we've started this this whole thing, he's lost his phone twice, just like in construction stuff, dropped it somewhere, crushed it with, you know, like like that sort of thing. So having a key on the phone as the only thing that secures this, you know, mobile keys not going to work. Got to have a backup. And also, you know, if I know people who are extremely messy, totally unorganized, they're going to write it down a piece of paper, that piece of paper is gone. You know, like they don't have AI know people who live out of their car basically like when they're working, you know, for weeks at a time. And that person is not going to have a safe place to store a seed. And multi sig is literally the best possible thing for splitting that up for for salt, getting around all of those limitations. Lost your phone? OK, get the new phone, set up a new just start a new key. You don't have to put down the seed. Put it do a one out of a three or five or something. And your phone is just the key. And if you lose it, OK, swap it to a new one. And you have just enough help to get someone over that hump to be able to recover the key, to be able to like. Just how do I move this again? How do I, how do I do this? Like, oh, don't worry, It's just this click, click, click and move it to this new key sent. And, and I've also because of that have gotten really dependent. That's not the word, Jessica. I really, really like the tap signer and I know it's not in the most secure key device in the world. You can't see what you're signing, you know, So if like your software is malicious, but I mean, if if you know what you're doing with your software, you check your signature and you install it, you know, the idea that it's been edited later or something is just extremely unlikely. But so you don't see the address with the tap signer like you do with a cold card or treasure or bit box or anything like that. That's that's the beauty of the ones with the screen. I think you should always have one with a screen in your setup and try to use it whenever you can't for that security reason. But tab signer is just something you can stick in your pocket like you used to have it in your wallet. And people are used to the process. They're used to the mind frame of keeping up with some cards. You know, everybody treats their wallet like people who have bad habits in every other regard know where their wallet is, you know, like, and that's hard to beat. If you can get a hardware wallet in that wallet, you don't have to change their habits. You don't have to make them understand. They know this is the thing that lets me pay. They know all of the setups. They have all of the right mental frame, all of the habits that are important to keep up with that. And if you do that with multi sig, keep this one in the one spot at home where you keep something important. Keep this one in your wallet. This one's on your phone. You can negate so many problems. You can negate so many possibilities of theft, of losing a device, of having your house burned down and not having your start losing those keys. Like it's extremely useful. And the really crazy thing about it is that it's something that you can't do with anything else. There is nothing, There is no financial instrument or tool of any sort that actually has that property except for Bitcoin, which is mind boggling. And it is one of the most underutilized tools in the toolbox. And increasingly, I think it's one of the most important. And we totally we totally agree I. Would have assumed you guys did. Yeah, not an unintentional advertisement for on ramp or anything. But no, you said a few things, really important things in there. The first being there's not like A1 size fits all for Bitcoin custody, right? Like there are different use cases, there's different risk tolerances. And you know, you can, there's a, there's merit to saying I'm going to diversify my custody setups. You know, I have a different wallet for different use cases, different setup for different use cases. And much of what we're trying to do it on ramp is say to your another one of your points like multi multi sig is the best. So let's, let's open up the accessibility of this thing called multi sig in a way that hasn't been done previously in the sense that, yes, Coinbase, you know, may use multi, say for their cold storage, but they hold all the keys. So it's, it's kind of irrelevant in, in terms of the actual risk mitigation of, of, you know, reducing that counterpart. And so our whole idea is let's distribute the keys to to multiple institutions and and reduce that barrier to entry to someone, to, you know, an individual or an institution getting the best foreign custody, IE multi sig. Let's reduce that barrier to entry meaningfully. And, and Cam, I'm, I'm curious your thoughts on this, because another thing guy said in there was that, you know, sometimes he worries about the people that he's on board. And I, and I know I've heard that from you in the past of because you've on boarded, you know, billions of dollars to multi sig in particular, other flavors of multi sig. But curious your thoughts on on any of that in terms of, you know, the evolution of custody, you know, different models, different use cases, all that? It's certainly still a difficult problem that we're grappling with, right guy? Because I've been using multi sig actually since I met you in 2019. And I got some great advice from Matt and Marty, who was listening to TFTC and started using Casa at the time and then later work for Unchained and now with Honor. And of course, I've been focused on it for a long time. And like, you know, I'm fascinated by it because it's never existed before. It is so powerful. You can have multiple keys that secure this asset. You can sign asynchronously different parts of the planet with different people signing. It's, it's so cool. It's like a James Bond technology you developed in the lab that's in the real world and we get to use it now. But then so one thing you touched on guy that I've been struggling with too a little bit is you're when someone either is starting to hold a material amount of Bitcoin that you want them in multi sig and you didn't you started to call it some of the reasons. But what I think you're driving at is redundancy, right, like having eliminating that single point of failure. That's a core tenant of Bitcoin security. But then the right we see the crossroads is what you're asking someone to do is then just use new technology and use multiple devices and form factors, whatever those might be, whether it's a mobile key in conjunction with hardware walls or a tap signer. Like there's multiple new piece of technology and you're asking people to change their pattern of behavior or like change the way that they they normally go about their day-to-day life as you were referencing. So that's where sometimes like then that cause for concern starts to creep in because you know, I'd go back and talk to my clients and like, OK, did you separate the devices? No, they're in the dust store. Did you when was the last time you did a key check? Remember what the wall configuration file is? You know, the essentially the backup for your multi sig right. So how do you think about that in terms of like trying to help people in the best practices? We we couldn't believe more strongly in multi sig because when you have a digital finite bare asset, you have to have redundancy because if you don't have redundancy and it's lost and it's gone forever. So multi sig is just a tool that provides a redundancy. But how do you kind of square the idea of the increased complexity of multi sig can bring with how human nature almost like more of a philosophical thing or like the the way that humans, you know, kind of manage their daily lives? Yeah, well, the multi sig backup is the big thing for the wallet configuration because, you know, you use the exact same keys. You can technically, I mean, not going to like if depending on like what wallet you're using, a lot of times it will just generate the exact same one because it's got like a default configuration. But you can technically create an infinite number of wallets and you can lose it just by losing your wallet configuration. So it, it is essentially a or at least in certain regards, it has the risk of being another single point of failure because that can be lost. But the big thing is that that is not is also not a major security risk. So it's easier to distribute and anybody that I on board or whatever, I have a couple of different wallets or excuse me, a big fan of ProtonMail. I use ProtonMail all the time and I have multiple different e-mail accounts and stuff. And one of the things I often do, I explain to them what the potential risk is, is that, you know, like I could technically pull this information and I could see what was in your wallet if I wanted to. I don't want to and I don't care. But if you want me to have a backup, you can e-mail it to me and you should e-mail it to yourself or to your wife or to anybody that you know. Just have this and label it in all big letters backup of whatever your app is. So that if you ever search whatever you think first when you think about this wallet, what's and you wanted to search that. If you want to search that in your e-mail, what would you find? Make sure that that comes up in that search result and then just have multiple copies of it. It's easy to mitigate and it's not a huge it's not a massive security risk. And if you know who you're giving it to, it's easy to just trust a friend or a family member or something with a backup of the wallet. In the context of keys is I specifically try to be sure one, one thing that I actually do for a number of people, especially family members and distant family members that I've gotten into Bitcoin is I just kind of make a habit of like every month, like shooting out a text, just like, you know where your keys are, Are they safe? I got just kind of do it regularly and everyone's like, oh, it's so good to hear from you and yeah, everything's great, you know? So just keep the conversation fresh, you know, because I think it's important just to remind people and you do that once a month for six months. It's hard for people to forget. You know, it's all, it's always about just a little bit of repetition. Like that's not hard to do. That is not hard to give up with. Set yourself a freaking reminder on the calendar. Text these 10 people or whatever to make sure that they know where their keys are. They will never forget where they are if you do that for half a year, you know, like they'll. You're a good man, guy. It will. Be in their mind have. Trouble setting birthday cards on the right date and the right date. I can't. I don't. I won't send a birthday card. I will send. I can send a text to help where your keys are. But then in addition to is I'll always like to do a setup that kind of forces me to have keys in multiple places like. So just as an example is if I'm using so I always try to use a wallet with a hardware wallet with a screen at some point in my setup. So it cold card dip box Trezor. I don't use my Trezor as much as I do is use typically typically a cold car these days, but one that I can verify and I can see you know what I can look at that address on the screen. But then I almost universally have a tap signer in my set up now because that one goes in my wallet and that one travels with me. My cold card isn't going to be in my wallet. It's never going to be in the same place. A tap signer is always going to be in my wallet. And then I typically like to have a mobile key and I can actually keep a backup of that in my secure non online password manager or something. So I can treat that key a little bit looser and more easily recover that. And I can put that in an encrypted BLOB on a storage service or something just as a backup drive for for those things. And I can recover that if I lose my computer or my phone or something like that. And again, it's one of three. So like if I think that's been compromised, easy to swap out and I also don't have to keep up with paper backup for that one if I don't want to. One thing I really wish was more standard though, because I would love this option is for mini script to be like far more ubiquitous or easy to work with I guess. And I think there's a, it's not, I keep thinking, I always think it's Poseidon. There's a wallet that Anchor wallet Anchor I think is one of the few that has started to implement this. But I love the idea of cascading keys. I would love to have a six month time lock where if I don't have any of the keys, my cold card can just sign. But I have to wait six months for the transaction to go through so that I can always just boot up the wallet. Look. And if somehow one of those keys got compromised and somebody sent a transaction. And in that time I can still use 2 keys and be like do what the fuck or do somebody hacked in my phone or whatever and I can react to it. But in the case where I do lose my tap signer and my phone and I don't know, I lose a whole bunch of things at once, The the way the setup is for like my I mean, this is like my day-to-day wallet that I do like a a setup like this. So I feel pretty secure in it. But if I did lose it, I would love to have that. I only need the cold card. It's just going to take me 6 months to get my phones as a backup. That would be that would be a wonderful setup. Another thing that specifically Bitcoin can do that you cannot do with any other asset in the world. And I would love to be able to take more advantage of that. The only problem with doing that for other people, I mean, I guess unless you just keep it as dirt simple as possible, like one key will unlock this in six months, you know, is it becomes a little bit difficult to intuitively understand, you know, the, the risk and what to look for. And if they saw a transaction, Oh my God, what's happening? You know, like if if one of their keys got stolen, granted they have six months to sort it out. So they they would probably just call me, but I might not be there, you know, I might not be accessible, I might not be around, who knows. So. Not every, not not everybody has a guy. Not everybody has a guy, but. But you know, part of the part of the reason we wanted to have this conversation is is you put out a tweet a few days ago, you're in Lugano for the Plan B conference. And you said, you know, we face the truth. Many Bitcoiners overlook being a target is real. A man broke into our hotel room, likely seeking valuable assets Bitcoiners often carry. This is more than a story of vigilance. It's a call for every Bitcoiner to recognize the stakes. So you know, in as few or as many details as as you are willing to share, like would love to hear what happened and Lugano and and what were some learnings and takeaways and and things that the audience should should recognize about what occurred. Yeah, well, if you want the really long version, I did a guy's take on it, so. We'll we'll link to that in the show notes. Yeah, that'd be, that'd be great. Thank you. And I tried to do it while I was fresh, like right when I got home to just try to get out as many details as possible. Like I was thinking about it like a police report or something right now, because I didn't I didn't file in yet. I probably should. But we couldn't figure, couldn't find that we were so rushed to get to the train station. Like, I mean, we were like back-to-back to back that that morning getting out of there. And honestly, I don't feel like it's going to do any good, but I don't know if it's important to have that record. I can't, I can't convince myself why it's like super important to have a police record right now. But I feel like it would be stupid to run into a situation where I needed it and not have it. But anyway, that's, that's beside the point. So that was the night of the first day of the conference. So we've been there for two nights and did the first day conference and we were supposed to have a speakers dinner that night. So my brother and I were supposed to be there and it was supposed to be like from I think it's like 9:00 to 10:30 or something like that at night. And we went with a mechanic and I don't know somebody else. We were hanging out with friends and got there and then we were like, and they were still doing the drone show and we're like, you know, we're going to skip this. We're just going to do the drone show and then call it for the night. I'm a dad, I'm lazy. I just I just want to kick it easy and like go back and like watch some bullshit for a little while and go to sleep right and especially I was MC ING the next day. So I was going to be on my feet all day and go over watch the drone shows. Great. We come back and as we come up, it takes about two minutes to get from the front door up to our room. We're at the very, very end of the hall on the second floor, and as we come up, we're just walking, solving all the world's problems as we're strolling down the hall and we get about maybe 1015 feet away from the door, and at the end of the hall, there's like 3 doors right close. There's door right in front of you, door just to the right, and then a door right beside that. And so there was reasonable, reasonable excuse to say that maybe I misremembered, maybe I wasn't sure which door he came out of, but I've gone over in my head, there's no way it he came out of our door. And so we're like 10 to 15 feet away and he just comes barreling out. And the, the thing that stood out in my mind that like when the the manager was like, Are you sure? Like we don't have any record of this like somebody you know when in this door because there's no log. The there's a log on the door like when you scan a card and it stays on the door like it's stored inside the little mechanism. There's no log at all to anybody in the room between the last time that we did at 7:00 when we left and at nine O 7 when we got back. So whatever he did, it should just be a completely mechanical way of opening the door. But I've specifically remembered the way the door closed, like the fact that it closed behind. I mean, I, I remember seeing him walking out of the door, but regardless, I knew because I was looking through at the wall in the room and the door closed this direction and every other door was the opposite, like in in the in the area. And but it was totally took me off guard because like it took me like half a second to be like, wait a second, what the fuck? What is he doing in our room? And then he basically just comes barreling like like power walking past me and I kind of like half stop him. I was like, dude, what are you doing? And he's in plain clothes. He's in all black at a with a jacket. I didn't remember this, but when we saw it on the footage, both when he was coming in and going out, he had a small shoulder bag and so he had that with him. I don't know what I assume maybe it's the device to get into the door. I'm not 100% sure. I still could not find anything that was missing. But he came up and said, what are you doing? He's just, he's good. He's good. And I was like, what the what are you doing in my room that doesn't what are you talking about this? Like you got to speak some English here, right? Like what are you doing in my room? And he's like water, water. It's fine, It's fine, It's fine. He's like just pushing past me and we turn around and start walking. My brother didn't see him. Exit the room, but he's like, why is this guy so weird? Like, and I'm saying, you know, why did you enter our room? And so we walk him behind him down the hall about halfway and he turns around. He's just like dismissive, trying to pretend he doesn't speak English or maybe he didn't speak English, I don't know, but I assume it's just a defensive mechanism and he's sweating bullets. He's so awkward, he's weird. He's a little bit shorter than me and he's just just trying so hard to get out of there. And everything about it was so weird and uncomfortable. Like it was so clear that he was not supposed to be there or that he was scared to death that he was there for some reason. And he just kept saying the water, the water, the water, and then our immediate so stupid. I just, I still just can't believe that I didn't just follow him down, but it was still registering that someone had broke into our room, you know, and like when you're, I really wish I had prepared, you know, I there was, there was this era and I talked to Shakimo about this is this kind of era of Bitcoin at the very beginning where everybody was like crazy paranoid and everybody was going overboard. And then we've just kind of gotten complacent because like not much has happened, you know, during the, the years and like 2 hype cycles since the 2013, but like the 2013 fourteen era with conferences and stuff like people like everybody's like wearing masks, everybody, nobody's bringing, nobody's connecting to Wi-Fi. They're like you set up Wi-Fi, you're just trying to, you're just trying to get into everybody's devices. Like it was like everybody was crazy paranoid, like Satoshi level paranoid back then. And all that went away. Everybody just got complacent. It's just a fun nerdy thing. And I think it's really important to remember what level of attack and what level of like this is cash, man. Yeah, like this is literal cash. And one of the one of the things that's gotten me super rethinking my security and everything. Like I just recently got my concealed carry and I've been doing like a, a pistol class every month and stuff because I, I feel like I've really let that not be, not get the attention that it deserves for just like personal protection and stuff at home. And I've done like some low hanging fruit, you know, security system sort of stuff. We got, we got dogs, loud dogs. You probably already heard them and but there was a lot talks about this a lot and he was actually very conveniently there and we had a long conversation a couple times about this. But talks about there was a mafia literally a gang out of Florida that was traveling around traveling around the country finding people who had large amounts of just any crypto on then exchange. 11 old elderly couple got hit twice, twice by the same group. And I was regularly reading the reports of this and they straight up there's one of them kidnapping a guy and beating him and torturing him and sending messages to his family members to, you know, text messages and phone photos. Tell him to send, you know, Bitcoin or crypto to the address. There's one of the more common one because it basically time sensitive. You know, you don't, you don't want exposure and you want as few people to know about it as possible. But the most common is home invasion, beat up family members, threaten to kill kids, threaten to rape wives until you give us your keys. And that happens in the town I read the town that I live in twice in these articles. And I was like, now you know, there's, there's a lot of things that you can do to protect yourself. Not using KYC as a huge benefit, but also not having stuff sitting in balances is really important because when that information leaks, you know, it's hard for them to know like they're always going to go for low hanging fruit, you know, like somebody who does that as a coward, like like they're not, they are looking for easy money. That's the whole point of it. If they, if they wanted hard money, they just work, you know? Does your Bitcoin custody setup keep you up at night? Maybe you still have coins sitting on an exchange worried about hackers. Or maybe you've set up your own self custody, but don't feel safe with your Bitcoin savings stashed on a little plastic device in your desk drawer. Gain Peace of Mind with Onramp and our Multi Institution custody solution. Here's how it works. 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But I had not been thinking about this like I'm kind of entering a I'm entering a bit of a battlefield, you know, like, and I need to be thinking about this as as my remote castle, so to speak. And so we followed him about halfway down the hall. And then for some reason, my thought was check to make sure he didn't take anything and we turned back around and went back to the room and we looked over everything. Is my laptop still there? Is does it look like anything has been touched? Is the cash still there like you, like I just, we just went and looked through everything and we let him leave and he left the building during that, you know, minute span. And when we when you see it on the security footage, he came in at 854 and he left at 9:10. So the entirety of the time that he was there was 16 minutes. We came in at nine O 7. So basically the largest span of time possible if he went beeline up to my room because he saw guy Swan on the list or got information from an employee or something like that. So if I was specifically targeted, which doesn't still doesn't make a lot of sense to me, like I have a hard time and I don't want to think that I'm just excusing it and being like, oh, he wouldn't target me. I'm safe. He was in my freaking room, you know, but that hotel room had a lot more important people than the guy who does the audio books, you know? And like Marty Malmy was there. I mean, it's like basically three of the top 7, four of the top seven of who might Satoshi be. We're in the hotel, you know, So I suspect it was just a opportunistic attack. Like just random. He he knew that like he was. Just the one. Bitcoiners there for the conference. Because this was the Bitcoiner conference, right? And specifically, they're all at the speaker's dinner and this is the hotel where they stay. So I I highly that that seems like the most logical explanation. And if I was specifically targeted, I also just don't know. That's a little harder to deal with too. Like I don't I don't know what that means, you know, going forward or what they think they have on me for how many Bitcoin guy has or whatever the I don't know. But anyway, so after a couple of minutes realizing that nothing was gone, nothing appeared moved like maybe he was only in the room for a couple of minutes. I don't know. We realized that or it just like kind of popped in our heads and we're like, wait a second. He said the water and we had actually had the the spigot on the bottom was super hard to cut off. And while it was wet, it was actually hard to get completely off and it would start leaking. And we know the maids had come in and clean the place or whatever. And twice we'd come back and the spigot was leaking. And so we're like, well, hold on a second, Maybe the maid saw this and this was like a maintenance guy just checking before he left at night or something. And so we kind of had this like real dumb, not very good excuse for it and shrugged it off for much for a lot too long. We shrugged it off for too long and we sat and just kind of pretended nothing happened and just we're going about our normal night. And then my brother took a shower and I was sitting there and apparently both of us were separately thinking about it being like, and that shit don't make sense, that none of that makes sense. It was 910. He is in plainclothes. This hotel would fire somebody for going into plainclothes in somebody's room. You know, like, this is a nice hotel. This is the nicest hotel I've ever been in. And then he got out and he's like, dude, I think we should, we should go tell somebody. I was like, yeah, we totally should go tell somebody. I don't know what the fuck we're doing. Like, why? Why would this took us this long to figure this out? And so we go downstairs, report, talked to the manager, and we ended up meeting them again the next morning. They looked at maintenance records, nobody was on. Everybody left at 6:00, definitely not a maintenance guy. And then that's when they checked the log for the door and there's no indication that anybody open the door. And he was like, you sure it wasn't the right, you know, the wrong door. You misremembered when I was like, no, no, that's not that. That's, that's not what it is. I, I get that you're confident about your doors, but that's, that's just not what happened. And I ended up talking to somebody randomly in the bathroom. There's two guys talking about Defcon and like all these like crazy security things. And I can't remember exactly what was said. You know, you hear somebody talking about something in the bathroom, you know, you don't know if they don't know what they're talking about. But I do know enough to know whether to be able to spot whether or not somebody else is full of crap. Most of the time. I've read a few things and something about something that one of the guys said. I was like, oh, OK, yeah, so he knows what he's talking about. And I actually stopped them coming out of the bathroom. And I was like, let me give you a scenario. And I gave him the rundown. And he was like, well, it all depends on your actor, like like who is who is the threat? Is this a state? Is this, you know, CIA? So it's just a opportunistic thief. But I would consider I would be rolling every key that I have, every every single one of them. I would just be assuming no matter what that you're screwed and you just need to change everything. And, and I was like, well, he was in a hurry and there was no indication that he touched my laptop. And then he was like, wait, this was real. He thought, he literally thought I was just coming up with a scenario. And so the conversation got more interesting after, right. And, and you know, that's, that's what I've been doing. But Oh my God, that's a job. And I had to do this recently with the LastPass hack, which I know like a really secure password, but if that's out there, I have to assume it's somebody at some point somebody's going to break it. That's, yeah, two months to swap out all this stupid crap. Yeah. You know, I guess there's like 50 that are important, like that are really critical. But I don't, I don't like it leaving anything exposed because there's a lot of roundabout ways that somebody can get back to something. But yeah, so we got him on video coming up at 854, got him on video leaving. I could not, I'm really the only thing, you know, I was talking to a couple people and they were like, well, I'm not, that's unacceptable. I'm not going to stay at that hotel again. And I'm like, you know, there's it's a hotel, it's a hotel. Like it was really nice. And as far as like basic security goes, there's not a lot you can do. Hotel room doors are just not cryptographic lock boxes. You know, like the guy I was, the guy from DEFCON was like, man, I actually like hotel room doors are just crap and doesn't matter what what they have. Like you can just get into him like you just can't if you know what you're doing. He even said that he usually takes a device to Defcon or whatever just to show it off that can just get into doors. And then we also looked and we tested a bunch of things. One of the things that we did and which I will do because somebody actually had an interesting point, is maybe he was picking something up. Maybe he had a Wi-Fi device in there and he was getting it because that was his opportunity to see, you know, who connected to it because, you know, he had a small bag. But we looked for something that was planted and we looked like, OK, like, and we tore that whole place apart, looked under mattresses, looked in the weird little cubbies behind drawers and the little desk thing. Look behind the the wall piece that the TV was hanging on. Because my thinking is, you know, low hanging fruit, easy to like, very easy to implement because like I know how to do it and high likelihood of just a lot of optionality is drop a man in the middle Wi-Fi, like get a signal there and see if you can get anybody's info and hope they're not on a VPN because that'll foil most of those plans. Like like a VPN is basically a set protection or a default protection against the majority of man in the middle attacks. If you trust your VPN but could not find anything, again, could not. There was no visual indication that he had touched my laptop and it was over in the corner on the floor next to the bed. So it makes more sense that he was probably going through all of my brother's stuff first if he was making his way around the room. And in the context of how long he had been in the room, maybe he was just on the 2nd floor and he went to the end of the hall because that was the one that nobody was going to have traffic. You know, like literally just go to the end of the hall and start, you know, maybe we were the second door because we're the Second World on the hall. Maybe he had just gotten into our room, clearly caught him in the middle. You know, the other thing that stood out to me is that he didn't have a lookout. He wasn't working. Like as far as sophistication goes, sure it could have been Mossad or CIA or whatever, but then they just hired a dummy on fiver, you know, to to break into the room. And they certainly weren't helping him because they would have known way before we would have just passed him on the stairs. You know, like I said, it's like a 2 minute trip to get up to the end of that hall. He left the room because he hurt us. Like either that or he was doing something that took two minutes to clean up and you know, be done with which that seems less likely. You wouldn't even want to get into something that involved. I feel like this sort of an attack, it just makes a lot more sense that he was just working alone. You know, he came up by himself on the security tapes. Going back to the hotel though, I don't I don't really fault the hotel that much. The one thing that I really wish they had done is think about their security camera positioning. Everything was super far away and they did not have a single like on the door, just .1 at the door, just .1 right at the door. So you could see the hall. So we can see a door. Specifically. There was nothing inside, like for the sake of privacy, they don't have anything on the hallways, but they have the entries and exits and lobby and reception and that sort of thing. And so, and they were pointing at both the, the sidewalks and stuff outside, really big high cameras pointing down so you can see him. And I recognized him because the, the manager was like, we didn't see anybody who fit the description or whatever. I was like, can I look at it please? Can I look at it? And, and he was like, he fought with me a little bit, but he was like, yeah, you can see it. And we found him really quickly. Like I was immediately like, that is the guy. And he specifically was running away when he left. Like he was like, he was like, like he's doing this like little hop thing. So he was not, he was running away. He got caught, you know, and but we looked through everything and then I started doing tests on my computer, like looking up kernel logs, like just like system logs. And so my computer was not off, it was not powered off, but it was closed and asleep. So it was like the basic lock, like you had to have a password to get back into it. But my question is, you know, do logs, do logs take one, it's asleep. How does that work? I honestly didn't know. So I started doing tests like can I plug something into this computer without triggering system logs and while it was asleep? While it's asleep enclosed it produces nothing, like no logs whatsoever. I did it for like 10 minutes on the train and for the entire 10 minute span there's 00 entries. I plugged in a did it again, put it to sleep, plugged in a USB extension like adapter thing with a bunch of ports on it hub and like 18,000 system logs, like just a crap ton of system logs while it was asleep. And then I was like, OK, what's the dumbest thing I have? And I have a very, very crappy USB cable. I'm like so one that doesn't have like a full computer and I'm sure it's got like a little chips and stuff in the head or whatever, but it's a very, very basic charge cable. Plug that in like like that. There's like 1000 logs like port IO boot logs, kernel logs, like you name it, even like a notifications log like you plug anything even slightly into this computer while it's asleep and it is doing a million things. So checked the log for the 16 minutes between him on the camera entering and leaving, nothing, nothing at all. And I also specifically went around like spent a long time trying to figure out how to delete logs. And you cannot do it without a root password, at least in a very naive sense on the computer. So it seems unlikely unless I got Pegasus and, you know, like the freaking CIA is after my Bitcoin or my computer or everybody, you're probably all infected. You're all screwed now. But unless I got hit with that, there is just no indication that he got to my computer. I am still treating it as if he did, because I don't know deeply enough about the topic to really say confidently, but there's at least no evidence that I can find in the basic knowledge that I have of that level of communication. But then I think, you know, if it was Pegasus or something, why do you have to send a guy to my room? You know, all you need is my phone number and my Apple ID, you know, like like if you've got a back door to the Apple servers, you got all my crap, you know, you don't need my hotel room. Why do you need to go to Switzerland or pay somebody to do it? You know, so but yeah, it was basically 2 days of just trying to like explain the situation. I wish so bad and I will never, I will have this forever every time I am in a hotel room, especially at a Bitcoin conference. I may very well have a travel computer now with me. I'm probably won't bring this thing and I'm still even considering just buying a new one and trading this in and just wiping it just for the hell of it. I literally took I bought up a kit kit and the first thing I did when I got home was I took it apart, open it up, make sure there wasn't anything planted in like he's in a simple little microphone could do a key logger, just listen to the keys. Nothing, no indication there either. And he could have opened it and only actually took me about like a minute and 1/2 after I knew exactly what I was doing because you have to like do like a funny thing to get the the bass off. But if you had practiced, if I had practiced it, I easily could have gotten in in like a minute, minute and a half tops. But I'm going to have a camera in my hotel room, one that is inconspicuous and remotely accessible, saving information somewhere. In fact, I may, I may develop my own app that runs on pair, the pair stack or whatever. So it will just record back home or something by default and just like cycle it over for like the last five minutes worth of footage until there's motion or something. And there's a couple of simple little open source things for motion detection on a camera that you can do with a smartphone these days. I think even Edward Snowden, they built a app called like or Los maybe, I don't know, I think maybe it's an app, but it's like called like Haven or something. I could be wrong in that it's been a long time since I'd thought about it until very recently. But it's basically Snowden talked about, you know, this device is a crazy spying device. They use it to, they can record you. They can turn on the camera. They have this has a proximity sensor. I mean, this thing's got like 20 sensors on it. It's battery powered. You can turn it off and it's still technically not off. It's still doing stuff. And he's like, you know, this is a powerful weapon that the government has and the the intelligence agencies has against us. We can use it too. Why wouldn't we use it? You know, like we can use this as a security device. We can use this as a watch your room and is the best security camera you're ever going to be able to ever going to be able to buy, You know so that's kind of the the idea of that app, but I'll probably use something like that. But for the next time I travel, I'm going to have something I'm going to be absolutely thinking about a lot more seriously about my devices and keys. And then there's every day that I felt like better having everything set up on multi sig right, because I got at least knew that even with total access to my computer, they'd have to be playing the long game. Nothing is immediately vulnerable, you know, But I just wish I, I just wish I could know what the hell he did in my room. Yeah, that's a tough, that's tough to tough to stomach that you don't have like full closure on it in in some sense. Yeah, I was. I was. I was legit sick on my stomach for a little while. I'm sure, but I appreciate you walking through all of that because I think it's, it's very helpful context for folks who, you know, you mentioned, you think there's an element of complacency that's sort of has occurred over the past few years. I would argue like the, you know, the scarier or more concerning aspect to me is less the complacency, it's more the the attackers are only going to become more sophisticated and advanced over time because 5-10 years ago Bitcoin was this plaything. Well, now it's now it's more broadly recognized as an asset where people store material wealth. And we think, you know, knowledge about Bitcoin is not widely dispersed, right? Like, so if that is to be true, most people don't understand Bitcoin as an investment asset. You know, the same number, if not less understand that people store material wealth in this thing. And Oh yeah, it's a bear instrument that they might have on their person. So I think we're, you know, I think it would be, we would be remiss not to assume that these attacks are only going to become more sophisticated and more prevalent as people more deeply understand what Bitcoin is and how it's stored. And so I think it's just important to highlight stories like this because, you know, it's not to be clear, it's, you know, it's, it's certainly not to fear monger in any sense. It's to give people context and you'll have them thinking critically about how they store their Bitcoin, you know, particularly when they're traveling or, or on the road, particularly at Bitcoin conferences, but also just recognizing that there's, there's different models and there's different use cases and, and threat vectors to consider. And so, yeah, we just just really appreciate you walking through all of that because I think it's something that people do need to to think more critically about. And I feel like it doesn't do any good. Yeah, I guess I'm, I'm an extrovert too, so I'm more likely to just blab about it anyway. But it also seems like it's of no value for that to happen and then not tell people about it because like, what do you, what do you learn from it? Like, and in, in the context of, you know, oh, is he fear mongering? It's like, no, just like that should have 100% happened. You know, like it's not a fear monger. I'm just telling you what happened. Like you can be afraid or not based on how likely you feel like you're going to be attacked. I'm, I'm a very prominent person in this space or like outward person in the space. Like, you know, people could listen to my show and probably be like, all right, well, his house has a, doesn't have a garage and it's got this and this and this is how many hardware wallets he has. That's actually somebody, somebody was posting that on a oh, is UTXOUTXO posted on Noster. They said the the burglar listening, listening to Kai son's episode as he lists all of his hardware wallets and it's the picture of Mark Cuban, like, oh, OK, let me write that down here. But I was like, ah, yeah, yeah, good luck. If he wants to wants to break in and find all my hardware wallets I have there's there's a security through obscurity, but then there's also security through sheer number. You know, like that's less the cryptography trick, right? Is that if your number is too big to guess, well, if they come in and get all of my hardware wallets, it will take them six months to figure out what combination of what hardware wallets actually make something that might have some Bitcoin on it. Because I have way too many hardware wallets. Like I have a lot of hardware wallets. I have drawers with hardware wallets and people have sent me hardware wallets that I've used just to test and play around with and stuff. I do not envy the person who has to just look and I do not envy myself having to go back through and clear things out and just make sure that I can take note of the setups that I have. But Jesus Christ, somebody just like getting all of my hardware wallets and then being like, all right, let's get into all these things and get some Bitcoin off of this. Like that guy's got a fucking job. Yeah, that would be an unenviable task. Well, we're, we're a little over an hour here. I want to be respectful of your time, Guy. This was super helpful. Cam, did you have any other thoughts you wanted to get out or any other questions for guy before we wrap? No, just a general thanks guy. I appreciate you sharing that story, as uncomfortable as that is, because it is a good call to us all to re evaluate how we're securing our own Bitcoin. And I agree that multi sig should be the premise that there's multiple different forms that can take. But when you think about defending your own Bitcoin, your own castle, so to speak, in the place you are most of the time, whether it's at home or traveling, think about how you can use multi sig to keep yourself and your family and you're well safe in those scenarios. So I appreciate you highlighting that. Yeah, 100%. Especially when you're traveling. It's too easy to set it up these days so there's services that make it easy on ramp, you know obviously, but like nunchuck is super easy too if you just want to do it yourself, you know like you have so many options now and two years ago that was not the case. Yeah You know none of the great .2 years ago. It was awful, confusing, risky. Two years ago yeah today, not at all, not at all. Have multi sig set up just in case your bag gets stolen at the airport, like have a multi sig so that you can go home, break out your hardware wallet or you know, whatever it is that you're using and recover your funds. That is that is the easiest as as I specifically said a little bit ago is the most comforting thing through this entire process was just knowing that my Bitcoin was not behind a single key that was potentially at risk because of my computer. That was the only thing I was never really concerned about. Like it even took me a day or two to open up my multi sig wallet just to look, you know, because I just wasn't concerned. I just knew that there was no feasible way that that was being that was at risk because of my setup. You know, and the only tap signer that was even involved with it was on my person the whole time it came with me did not stay in the hotel. So yeah, that's, that's just something to think about. And if there is any simple mitigation, I feel like that's, that's definitely, it's one that's easy to do and it, it is a massive, massively valuable tool in my opinion. So. Absolutely. Well said. Well, thanks again, guy. This has been great and. Good to meet you, Brian. Yeah, great to meet you as well. Been a fan for a long time and and you you provide an immense amount of important Bitcoin education, which is, you know something that at on ramp. We're very focused. On as well, since day one. You know you can't. You can't run a Bitcoin company without. Y'all got a really good first I was gonna say y'all got like a really good like Bitcoin intro thing that that I've been through. Don't y'all? Where is? Where is that one? Yeah, we have a fundamental series, yeah, which goes through some, you know, basic core concepts in a in a pretty concise I. Should I should link to that one? Yeah, please do and we will. We will link to all of your stuff as well in the share notes. But thanks again. And Cam, thanks for subbing in for Michael today. Much appreciated. OK. How you doing, Bob? Guy So this has been a pleasure. It's so fun. Oh man, we need to catch up. What's When's the next conference you're going to? I'm going to the one here in Dallas coming up in a couple weeks that Lee Bratcher and the Texas blockchain. Console. Yeah, no, I'm not going to that one. Blockchain Summit. Well, hit me up. We'll we'll coordinate. We need to hang out again. It's been too long. Hell yeah. All right. All right, guys. Thanks, boys. Thank you. Yeah, you guys. Appreciate it later. Thanks for listening to this week's episode of the show. If you found the information valuable, please share the episode with a friend or leave a rating on your favorite podcast app. All the links we discussed in today's show will be in the show notes inside your podcast app. Before we finish, a quick reminder that Onramp Media is for informational and entertainment purposes only, and nothing should be construed as investment or legal advice. Regardless of where you are on your Bitcoin journey, we'd love to hear from you. Visit onrampbitcoin.com/contact to schedule a consultation with one of our private Client Advisors.
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