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It all. Comes down to computers communicating. The information superhighway can be a confusing mix of on ramps and off ramps. Bitcoin is worthless artificial gold. Is it still rat poison? Probably rat poison squared. We need to get into the world of OK, this is actually foundational. Technology. What the Internet of Money does is it creates a single network which can do a microtransaction to a giga transaction. The Internet is going to be. One of the major forces for reducing the role of gun, the one thing that's missing that will soon be developed is a reliable E cash. All righty. Welcome back to Final Settlement. Today is June 2nd, 2025. Today on the show I'm joined by my Co host Liam and Michael and a very special guest, Pierre Corbin, CEO and Co founder of Flash portfolio company of of early riders. Very glad to have Pierre back on the show. How you doing, Sir? Hey, yeah, Hi, everyone. Thanks for having me back here and doing really good. Still recovering from from your Vegas trip I would imagine. Yes, yes. Jet lagged, perhaps? Jet lag, can't sleep all night only and it's horrible because you know, so I live in Poland, right? And the sunset, sorry, sunrise is at about 4:00 AM. So going to sleep because of jet lag when it's already day out is makes it just harder. But yeah, I think recovering slowly. Guys, I think I figured out the the hack is so for next year, we probably don't go to the conference again, especially 'cause Vegas, but we have folks on from that. We're in Vegas right after and then the following week to recap and talk because we had this really great recap with Tim on or Thursday that came out Friday and the comments were really like helpful or insightful and that they like to be able to recap it and not necessarily have to go through the travel. So Pierre, if you're going to be there, maybe we'll, we'll have you on a year from now and we'll, we'll recap what the latest is going on. Sure, sure. Happy to. So yeah, maybe maybe diving in there Logical place to start. Pierre, was it your first time in Vegas or have you have you been there before? No, no, first time in Vegas. It's a very, very funny place. Feels like just a, a resort all around. I was surprised that there's over 2 million people living there. That's that's crazy. But it did remind me quite a bit of Dubai, to be fair. And I spent quite a bit of time in Dubai. So yeah, I mean, it was, it was, it was just more of a pure holiday vibes, whereas Dubai is more real life as well. Yeah. So what any any sort of key takeaways from from the week discussions you had any any alpha you want to leak different different conversations with with folks? Yeah, so I mean, you know, generally speaking, it is a lot of what at least my feed shows on Twitter when it comes to the conference, a lot of, you know, as we call shit coining not just Bitcoin focused topics, which I mean, you know, it's fine. I guess there's a bit of everything. At least it brings people over to to these topics. But I mean, yeah, generally speaking, you know, everyone has the opinion That's of course Bitcoin won. And and I agree that Bitcoin won. I even talked, you know, with the. So he's he's an old friend, he's called Clement and he's the person that leads the Bitcoin community in Bulgaria. And he said that he's he feels missionless without a mission anymore because Bitcoin kind of won. And and he he can really get this vibe in at at the conference. But, you know, I think what matters is not Bitcoin that now the US government is trying to push because this is all full custody Bitcoin. Let's not forget what Bitcoin is actually trying to solve, which is the fact that, you know, you can be responsible of your own money and not, you know, be dependent on on a third party, which, you know, is what's both. I mean, us together, early writers on ramp flash. We're we're working on of course. So, yeah, I was there a lot trying to push people as to, yes, wait, this isn't real Bitcoin. This is just the equivalent of the traditional financial system on a new asset class. But yeah, let's not, let's not lose the the mission here. But yeah, the conference is a bit all over the place when it comes to that. Yeah. It's a little unfortunate. I don't know who you reference, but who said that? Because it kind of reminds me, share with me, it's like the parallel, you know, when people say if you're depressed, just go help somebody else out. Like if somebody depressed, they're thinking about themselves too much versus you just go out in the world and then that'll go away. It's very similar to like that notion. It's like maybe it's figured out for the individual. But when you think about from store value for 8 billion people or payments that we talked about and being able to receive across the world, there's still like an insane amount of work to be done. And then one of the things that stood out, I think it wasn't until after the conference, and I think it was Jack's mom, Brooke Waller's, I think she had a tweet that was showing the 2000 or 10 years ago, whatever that was, 2015 with Antonopoulos sitting in Texas blockchain or Texas Bitcoin conference. And he said 10 years from now, there'll be 30 to 50,000 people, similar how the Internet was. And it was kind of prescient that that stood out there. The the only other thing to share about the the Vegas stuff, I guess it makes sense in this, in the from a continuity perspective because we've all been to like Miami and Nashville and the crazy amount of logistics and travel versus being able to be in a like consolidate area, you know, definitely helps. And I think the infrastructure from Vegas independent of kind of the, the feedback vibes that it reels off. Yeah. One, yeah, I think it's just a good, good. No, I'm just saying, yeah, it's just really big. And and to be fair, it was very well organized, right? So I think being able to organize something at such a big scale is, is quite, quite impressive. I mean, I didn't attend JD Vance's talk. I didn't feel like lining up at 5:30 AM, but I hear, I hear it was it was very packed. I did arrive right afterwards and just as everyone was exiting the the main room, it was, it was pretty crazy. But no. So organization was was on point though, that's for sure. Yeah, Well, maybe there was a few sort of announcements. It's it's funny because there was, you know, obviously a lot of focus and talk about Bitcoin treasury companies and, you know, mostly looking at at Bitcoin as a store value reserve asset. And I think that's also been a lot of the rhetoric from, you know, the JD Vances of the world, you know, the government policy, policy makers, the way they're looking at Bitcoin. But at the same time, there was also, you know, a number of announcements and progress and development on the payment side of things and things. And that's sort of, you know, where you spend most of your time focused. Pierre, I'm curious what you made of some of the announcements on that side of things. You know, Square had a few announcements around rolling out, you know, accepting payments for for all their merchant terminals. There was another very interesting announcement around, you know, some of the, the work that they're doing on Lightning specifically in their routing node that's generating A9 9.7% annual yield. Curious what what you made of some of the, you know, medium exchange type announcements that happened, which I think given the crowd there, you know, very tradified focus, it probably some of it got lost in the sense that there is all of this focus on Bitcoin treasury companies and, and as you put it, you know, not real Bitcoin. So curious what what you made of all that? Yeah. So I think definitely the announcements by Square, at least to me, we're the most relevant, the most important ones because you know, everything else we've kind of already heard before. Having a strategic Bitcoin reserve is kind of the thing to do right now, which is just interesting to observe. And I feel it becomes less and less, you know, mind blowing compared to when micro strategy started doing it. So yeah, it just feels like a very trendy thing. And and it even kind of gives the vibe of this is, you know, it could be an event around this that like will point to the end of the Bitcoin bull run, which which would be kind of, I mean, just speculating here, but yeah. And but but essentially, I think there's two things around around payments that I think are pretty interesting. First of all, when it comes to Square, I think the fact that they're now integrating Lightning payments for all of their merchants. This is just amazing simply because of course it makes the Lightning Network more accessible. All of these merchants are now people that will also have direct access to Bitcoin. This will of course encourage more people to spend in Bitcoin and I think this is generally good news all around and for for the entire industry and for the payments industry as well. You know, a lot of the feedback that we get is that most people when they buy Bitcoin, they first go on some Coinbase and then as they get educated, they go and look for other options that can protect their funds better. Like I suppose that's also how it works with with on ramp and the same thing is true with payments, right? A lot of people, they start with the basic ones that everyone, the big names that everyone understands. But then as they get get more educated and some data, sometimes it's leaked here and there, some funds are lost here and there and they kind of want to start looking at other options. And this is where, you know, Flash is a very logical next step for for such companies. So I mean, I think generally speaking, Square accepting like link payments, that's very welcome. Now, another one that I think is pretty interesting is the fact that there are a lot of payment solutions out there that are not like square. Square is, you know, fully regulated, fully follows all of the regulations that are needed when it comes to custody and KYC, anti money laundering processes, all of this. And there are a lot in the space that are custodians and do not do that. And it's just interesting to observe and kind of, you know, raises the question, what's what's going to happen next? I know you know, Steak and Shake, for example, they, they were at the conference as well. They had a booth, they're using a, a competitor of ours that is based out of, they're based out of Dubai. They don't KYC, they don't AML. So, you know, big, big question mark as to how long they're going to be able to run this business this way with US customers given the regulations that that are coming. I mean, of course, you know, at this stage regulations in the US, the only thing we know of is the Genius Act that at this stage only regulates stable coins, but often times shows how the rest of the industry will will be regulated, which I mean, I think is the logical way of approaching it. If you're a custodian, you need to have custodian processes, which makes sense because you're a risk for individuals. And so, you know, with the all of this knowledge and seeing all these businesses that are accepting payments through these rails, sure, it's easier and you're sure, you know, they're good options. But as these recognitions come into play, I think these, this environment can, can change for, for them as well, which, you know, from Flash's perspective, just strengthens exactly what what we're doing, because the whole goal is no intermediaries and not having to rely on, on other custodians where it's not needed essentially. And I think payment is not needed when it comes to holding custody of of user expense. I mean, rather custody of user funds is not needed in the payment space, right. Yeah. I don't know if maybe you have some reactions when it comes to that. I do have some extra thoughts when it comes to the whole Lightning Network thing of Square. Yeah, go. Ahead I was just. Going to say it's it's really bullish too just because we've we've really seen a ton of focus on Bitcoin treasury companies, but this is really great for just like companies that want a Bitcoin treasury and then it doesn't need to necessarily be the full focus of their entire company. But like to Michael's point earlier, like Bitcoin is not like some like very fringe idea where nobody understands you know, if it has any value at all. It's just now in kind of in I guess maybe phase two of like how to optimize your exposure to it of, you know, how to optimize payments, what to do as like a company if you want to integrate it into your business. Do you hold it? Do you just, you know, it seems like Steak and Shake maybe just goes the route of, you know, liquidating it and that's the option that Square gives you once you accept it for payment. But even with that, there are many times going to be reduced fees and quicker settlement. I don't know exactly what Square is going to offer like that, but it seems like that's just significantly better than the merchant side. And it does just give additional exposure and, you know, education from very well respected players who can allow for different exposure from a number of different people. So I mean, I don't see how this is anything but, but really exciting for a number of different, you know, aspects and and yeah, and that's kind of before we even touch on the rotting side. Yeah. So just just a note, stick and shake, they're not using square though stick and shake uses speed. Mm. Hmm. Sorry, I don't know if I'm so I was going to bring up Pierre. The I hear the notion of the non custodial and I think there's a delicate balance because let's say it's Steak 'n Shake or whoever and they don't know who their counterparty is and they use the easiest route and then they get rugged. Whether they get rugged because of regulation or they get rugged because wherever their custodial wallet is, the problem with that is independent. If we agree if it's right or wrong, like that's the easy route and it's the tooling that vertically integrates to make it very simple. In the same way Square you log in, you have a bank account, it accepts it to it, you know the payments and then it sweeps and takes the fee and it's pretty straightforward. It gives you some invoicing and other tooling. So how do you think about that experience? Because there's some part component of value add that you can bring your own custody setup. And there's the other part where the vast majority of people won't want to think about that. They'll naturally either want to bring in the Bitcoin auto convert or sweep into a robust custody solution. Looking at their partner, their partner that they're using it as their source of truth or kind of advocate to come into the space. Like how do you think about that ease of access and the like a balance? Yes, I think because I don't have any problem with custody and in fact I think custody is, yeah, very welcome when it comes to holding funds. And especially I like you know, the more hybrid models with like most institution custody like you guys offer. But it's really when I, when I say that custody is something that shouldn't happen, it's in the payment side of things. We, we don't need, you know, the an intermediary when it comes to actually facilitating payments, right? This is what, what we're working at solving at flash. So it's, it's really when it comes to that. Now, you know, at this stage, well, we know we have the technology and we're, we're developing and developing the use cases for it. It's really more a matter of making sure that these custodial solutions can plug into these environments more, more easily in order to facilitate the non custodial payments. But you know, just to simplify the non custodial part, it's really about no intermediaries, right, Because there there can be custody on both sides of where the Bitcoin comes from and where it's going. It's just that in this transaction there shouldn't be an intermediary because the tech allows us to do it. I mean, after all, you know, the white paper is about peer-to-peer electronic cash system. So it's about making sure that we remove these intermediaries in the payment because I think for new people coming into the space and it makes perfect sense to look for custodial solutions that have, you know, I don't know for just more secure solutions, not relying on your own individual security when you may not be familiar with all of these processes and the right, the right way of doing it. I mean, I know that the first time as an individual that I took proper custody of my funds, that that was an entire first, first step to take, right? And it's, it's it's not an easy one because it, I mean, it makes you feel very responsible all of a sudden. And, and it's also counter intuitive because the concept of custody doesn't really exist outside of the world of Bitcoin or, you know, even thinking more wider crypto, because everyone is just so used to custody and everything that is payments and holding your your money in in a bank account. So, so that's why, you know, I maybe prefer just you saying no intermediaries when it comes to the payment side of things. And, and essentially, yeah, I think, you know, when it comes to Square, it's easier if you come to to try speed, it's easier, although I mean, try speed again, I think is, is easier because they don't require KYC and they don't have all of these processes because we're still in this Gray area of regulation. Square, of course, does require all of this. And, and you know, many businesses are, are, are fine with that, which which makes sense. And Square are custodian, temporary custodian of of these payments and allow to, you know, directly either off ramp or just also hold it in Bitcoin directly through their other services, which is interesting to see. I mean, they did part of block, they did release bit key, which is a hardware wallet. But that is I think, you know, the next step will be how do they integrate this nicely and the rest of of their tools. Yeah. We don't we don't ever get to talk about bit key. We don't have to do it here, but I just nobody talks about in the lexicon or like in the the the Twitter space. These are a lot of people spouting none of those people have ever onboarded thousands of people in like real significant capital. And what that product is, is the is pure too much money and too many smart people sitting in a room ideating on what the market wants versus building it like this is that's fundamental to the thing. It's like it's for nobody when you really break it down, because everyone will say it's for somebody else or their grandparents or whatever. It's like, if it's for your grandparents and they're going to put significant wealth and they don't understand it and you can't recover, like how much wealth would you put? And if it's not for the hardcore person, like who is it for? It's for really nobody. And nobody really says that because they've never had to sit on calls and walk people through and the dongles and the recovery and the questions that are asked. No serious person is putting significant capital on a big key multi sig setup. So then it's like, what are you doing here? Yeah, yeah, it's AI. Personally didn't choose, but yeah, I did hear many people say that it's it's the hardware wallet that they think is the easiest to use and so on. But I don't know. I personally, I, I didn't use it myself. It's got a nice design, I guess, but yeah, it feels good. There's no screen. There's no screen. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree. I agree. But but I mean, of course the the the point is for you to be able to use it through their app, right. So it's just there as an external signing device. Yeah, but but I don't know, it doesn't feel. The fascinating part is like we space, we stay so close to the space. The past two weeks. It just came out. Ledger Live had a, a malicious, you know, software download, whatever. Like so how they're not gonna come up with a different app or a side load. You can get somebody's phone overnight, swap out the app. And then there's so many different attack vectors. If you aren't able to see it from an external device, which goes back to then it's just for fun. And if it's just for fun, just put it on a single, say, cold card and call it a day. Yep. Yeah, I know. It's more secure and you can see it, yeah. Yeah, definitely. I mean, in the end, you have to be able to validate including from the device that you're sending to the right address as expected. Because yes, the attack vectors, if you don't see all of a sudden, I mean, yeah, you can, you can really get trapped easily. Maybe maybe just circling back to, to the payment side of things and for, for maybe folks in the audience who who haven't heard about Flash specifically, Pierre, maybe if you could give sort of just a brief overview of what what Flash does. And then I'll pull up this this write up in Bitcoin mag from a couple weeks ago. And you know, maybe just talk through some of the some of the things you guys are working on with Flash 2 point O and and sort of the road map in general. Yeah, sure. So essentially at Flash, you know, what we found is that there's really good technology at the protocol level that allows us to interact with wallets in a pretty novel way that unlocks a couple new features that didn't exist in Bitcoin until now. One of them is direct debit, essentially where we can just easily interact with with wallets. So we have a set of different tools, you know, for content creators, for in person commerce, for e-commerce platforms such as subscriptions, so automatic recurring payments and all of these features and actually invoicing took we just launched invoicing last week I believe and we're going to be pushing this some more as well. So every single tool that we have is just through basic communication with the user wallet and allows us to make sure that we are not an intermediary in the payment, which means that there's there's no KYC, it's free to get started. And essentially, yeah, it's a it's a we believe the easiest and fastest option to get started with with Bitcoin payments. Again, with this the, the, the truly revolutionary side that we are trying to to push is the fact that if you are a payment processor, you no longer need to hold custody of merchants funds. We can just facilitate these peer-to-peer transactions, which of course reduces the time transactions end up in the merchants pockets, the fees that merchants have to pay as well as the general user experience that it is to get started. So, yeah, so that's kind of what what we're, we're up to and we have very big set set of tools and, and the, the more recent one that we we want to push is invoicing. Now, of course, in the traditional Fiat world, invoicing tools are usually free and, and, and so that that's how we're going to be releasing also our invoicing. So starting next week, it'll be completely free for any freelancer to come over flash and over it's flash creates invoices and then to to their employer for for whatever kind of job they're they're doing. And we won't take any transactions fee for that. This will just depend on the network fees and what wallets you use. So we also have a, a wallet that is right now in beta. So it's still in test flight. And next month we hope to be able to release it on the app stores. So for self custodial, again we do not want to hold anyone's money such anyone's money whether you know the wallet that they earn too or even how they earn in this flow of payments. Right. Yeah, it's a, it's an insane, you know, tool set or there's a lot of tooling and a lot that's been added. I was looking over yesterday curious Pierre, like how would you, is it a fair categorization? There's like 2 parts to the business in the sense that there's like merchant tooling, somebody can onboard, get access to these robust different tool sets for integration to like Woo commerce, Shopify and then create the invoice naturally figure out curious on like exactly the flow around custody because that's still the thing that I like harp on is if there's not a direct version of what they can do that's robust, that's a point of friction in my mind. But then the second part is around Noster Wallet Connect and bringing a whole layer of other native aspects to payments that have historically not been there when it comes to subscriptions and pooling. And is that fair to separate them or I know they merge in some respects, but I feel like they kind of have two different either use cases or areas of your business that are like from a technology stack? Yeah. So definitely, I mean at the heart of it all is always Nostril wallet connect because this is the tech that we use to be able to interact with wallets. Now if you think of it in the most basic way, it's just a a shared API among all compatible wallets, which is now becoming quite the standard as most new Lightning wallets are releasing with master wall connect integrations and essentially it allows it to directly communicate with the wallet. So how it works is whatever check out you have, so it can be our e-commerce checkout for example. Well, then the the user, the customer is redirected to our hosted checkout page and there we will show a Lightning QR code. So a payment request we're about also to really sell. So support for on chain payments, so that we both on chain and Lightning paid to the same wallet. And essentially these payment requests that appear on screen are generated by the merchant wallet directly. So it is not a payment that goes to one of our wallets and we redirect, it's a payment that will go directly to the merchant, which increases a lot of yeah, security for, for, for the merchant and also allows to create this direct relationship in fact, between the customer and, and the brands they're, they're buying products from. And, and this is true for everything. Now, one thing we're, we're also making a lot of changes thanks to Noster walk night is through back end payments. So if you think of traditional payments in the Bitcoin space, there is usually a QR code and you have to scan the QR code from your phone and you have to confirm the transaction. And this is how the funds are sent. Well, Nostril Wall Connect allows us to manage a lot of this in the back end. And this is how we do it. The subscription, so subscriptions is 2 sided. There's the site that is the merchant site, which of course, you know, in the end, the tool that we have is for merchants to be able to monetize through automatic recurring payments, whether it's daily, weekly, monthly, we have a bunch of options there. And then of course there's the consumer side, which is how customers can subscribe to these platforms, right. And when it comes to the, the flow of payments, in that case, essentially we do the exact same thing, except that we communicate using nostril wall connect in our back end. So the, the, the, the exact user flow is he arrives on our subscription checkout page, he chooses his plan depending on what the merchant set up. And when he chose his plan, he needs to verify his e-mail address pretty basic kind of to effect. And then instead of scanning AQR code to make a payment, he has to connect his wallet. And in connecting his wallet, we create a, a, a connection that that we store that has a set budget. We cannot charge more than what the user authorized us to to charge. And then from the in, in our back end, we will generate a lightning payment request from the merchant wallet. The user never sees it. And then using the nostril wall connection of the customer, we're going to pay that invoice that was generated by the merchant. So we're also facilitating A peer-to-peer transaction. But the actual transaction doesn't happen in the front end. It is purely in the back end. And then of course, how how do we get paid in in the process is leveraging the same direct debit approach is after the merchant got paid well, then we can trigger a payment from his wallet to ours. And so the flow is the same is rather than, you know, interacting with the merchant's wallet directly, we interact with the flash wallet, we generate a payment request and then we get the merchant to pay this in the back end, right. So there's, there's two back end payments that happen, allowing us to not be an intermediary in the flow of funds. We really just take a service fee because all of this happened through through our platform, which is I think the way forward, of course, for payment processors because it is so easy to do and is, is instant now compared to the fact that it was impossible up until now. Now it has just become, well, not necessarily easy, I'm not going to lie, but it became possible at least. And, and so we're, we're unlocking these Tuesdays. And I think it goes beyond just subscription goes beyond merchants. I think it can go to all kind of peer-to-peer payments in any platform. And and I think that's that's what we're going to start seeing little by little. Yeah, let's let's talk about some of like you're interesting, it could be even be like moonshots. But to back into that where you're thinking where it can go is your reference had been historically impossible. So the first thing my mind went to anybody listening or here is like if you don't use it was like Molvad and some of the VPN providers that require Bitcoin payments, you generally end up like tapping out unless you're going to, you know, if you're going to pay in Bitcoin because every month you have to reset it or you can pay for like 3 months. But then my mind when it went to well, what other use cases or globally that somebody wants to accept Bitcoin on a reoccurring basis and that they never did. So they either just didn't offer to a segment of the market or never opened up Bitcoin because you would imagine you'd probably lose, you know, a conversion rate if somebody goes and signs up for Bitcoin for one month and then you never see them again because they just didn't. That's because that's what would happen with me with multiple VPN providers. But then it kind of ties into this notion we've talked about a little bit before of it's like the the growth of the Internet was around like Metcalf's law, which is the Ethernet or like amount of connectivity. And then Moore's law, which is lowering the cost of, you know, semiconductors and just technology and those together is what, you know, kind of created the modern day kind of like proliferation of technology. And then if you take that to where we're at today, it's AI and Bitcoin, where AI is the version of Moore's law, you can do more with less. And then Bitcoin is, you know, the Metcalf's law, you're able to, you know, basically connect everyone that hadn't been. So you take all those together and this is what kind of leads to where do you think? What are some interesting examples of whether it's what you're referencing with Nostril wallet connecting the connectivity that just hadn't been done before or it's not even haven't been done before. It's like just opens up more of a market where somebody could have been in Poland and only offered there because they couldn't get a U.S. bank account or couldn't offer their goods and services, their technology stack to U.S. citizens. Latin America now just completely change. What are you seeing or thinking about? Yeah. So I mean, I think the use cases can can go really quite crazy moving forward because, you know, nostril wallet connect, of course, makes these these things easier and more interoperable. Especially I think this is the more important part is the fact that it's interoperable and and of course can allow the automation of payments in South custody. So without intermediaries, which means it removes friction of, you know, needing KYC on the bunch of platforms and so on. But also it's microtransactions, right? So the fee that we take if someone is selling, you know, a product that is $1.00's worth, but we can still capture a fee because we're talking of microtransactions and, and I think this is the concept that can scale really big time. So you know, I guess, I guess we must have spoken about that The so Flash was a spin off of a previous project that we were working on called Nosteret's originally horrible name. But essentially what we were working on was leveraging AI Noster and Lightning payments. And the way we did that was essentially, and we have created an entire chatbot that was that was built off of that, where for each API request that was done, we would then send a lightning invoice through an SDK. And then a back end payment would happen directly and the response of that API would be sent only if the lightning invoice was paid. And you know, this is in fact how we started really using Noster Wall Connect. And when we realized the power of it because all of a sudden, you know, we were originally using 2 technologies in the lightning space and lightning addresses and, and Noster Wall Connect. We had them both together and the lightning addresses issued as a platform that is trying to coordinate payments is that there is no way to for you to capture a fee without taking custody of user response, right? And and this is when we realized actually we solved this problem with Noster Walk connect. And when the, the week we saw released Noster eggs, we also thought we should change and this is when we should move on to flash. But that's also when I told my Co founder, OK, but I think right here is the moment where you should like take the decision of moving away from lightning addresses and focus only on Noster walk connect, because that's the only real way to take a a feat for every single transaction that we can simplify the flow for without ever holding custody of users funds, right. And so if we were to recreate this entire API payments platform, which we, you know, do plan on recreating, then we would do it using Nostra walknet because it is so much easier. In fact, you know, and I don't want to get too technical either, but there's this a big project called L4O2 that is essentially doing that created by Lightning Labs. And I think it's just a complicated way of doing it. You have to lock up some Bitcoin and give temporary access to a third party so that he can just take this Bitcoin whenever he. Needs. From this locked up Bitcoin, essentially, it's not what I consider a direct debit kind of way of working. And and I think the way forward is through this direct debit feature that nostril wall can without needing to lock up some, some Bitcoin because I mean, I don't know if I'm using a certain API and sure, I know that there's X amount of transactions that are going to happen. I don't necessarily want to lock up more Bitcoin than I need to and I in fact don't want to lock up any Bitcoin in theory, right, I should be able to just really have a pay per use experience. The moment you lock up some funds, it's not pay per use experience anymore. And Nostra Walk Connect allows us to really create these paper uses experiences, pay per click experiences all the way. And so I think it can apply to the way AIAPIS&AIS communicate between one another through these endpoints. I think and this is kind of a recurring theme that we've heard a lot in the Bitcoin space that lightning is going to be. And so Bitcoin through lightning is going to be the money of AI agents. I think this is true because there is no more efficient payment network out there that allows for such small all transactions. But I think it's true also for advertisements. We created a proof of concept last year that allowed for a direct pay per click, literal pay per click, unlike today where you go on Google Ads or any of such alternatives and you have to pay directly. So again, you kind of set the budget, but you prepaid it and then little by little it's going to be charged for supposedly clicks. You just see dashboards that are communicated to you. Well, what what we had built is essentially A literal pay per click where you connect your wallet to a Noster wallet connect and you authorize a certain budget, but you don't pay for anything. There's a maximum amount that you will commit for this ad campaign that you have, but it will only be charged when there are actual clicks, which is the right way of doing it and making sure that again, there's no intermediaries in the payments and no one is there to take your funds when they shouldn't. And you know, I think this this one is a really big one. I have a personal story that maybe I told you guys. So the first thing I did in Bitcoin was a Bitcoin documentary, right? And it's on YouTube, the great reset in the rise of Bitcoin. And so it buzzed quite a bit. And so very quickly I was able to monetize the channel, which as soon as I could, I did for this you need I think about 350,000, No 3, 1/2 thousand followers and maybe 150,000 views, something like that, 200,000 views. And so I monetized and I had to wait for a certain threshold before I could withdraw it, right? That's already, you know, it shows what the limits of certain custodians and intermediaries are. And the moment I wanted to withdraw these funds, I wasn't allowed to. Google blocked me. They shadowed and my channel. They locked my account. I couldn't monetize anymore. And essentially, it took three months of back and forth between Google Pay and YouTube saying it's their fault. No, it's their fault. No, it's their fault and impossible for me to get my funds back. And I think, you know, that's the kind of things where had I been paid directly to my wallet, there would be no problem. I wouldn't have any problem with my channel and with YouTube at all. So you know that that's the kind of problems that that I think can can be sold directly thanks to these micro transaction pay per clicks, direct debit environment, while YouTube could still earn because they could still trigger payments from my wallet directly. So I think these are the kind of use cases that are completely new and that's that we're going to see moving forward. But you know, it's going to take a bit of time. Of course, Bitcoin has to properly become the standard Internet money between developers. I think this is essentially what needs to happen. Developers that are not from the Bitcoin space to also adopt it and then they will start using it and how they pay each other. Hey guys, hope you're enjoying the podcast with Pierre. It was a great one. Just wanted to share a quick word from On Ramp about our private client services. A lot of clients come to us with significant balances and they're hoping to get a white glove treatment, whether it's via our onboarding process, helping and moving assets from a collaborative custody or single hardware device or a third party exchange like a coin base. We support with all of that and much more, whether it's a virtual family office, access to private equity in the Bitcoin space, VR fund, early riders, and also the Guild network, which really brings together world class professionals globally that are looking to either collaborate, build companies in the space, advise companies, or just share professional experience as it relates to this new monetary order that's being shaped before us. If you'd like to learn about any of that, you can reach out to me at Michael at honor@bitcoin.com or if you want to reach out to the group at hello at honor@bitcoin.com. Now back to the rest of the show. Yeah, that's fascinating. I think slight, slight pivot from this, but I think another theme, you know, if we just think about the conference and, and sort of all the activity and adoption that's been occurring recently, there's been a lot of talk about stable coins. I think the, the last time that we had you on the show, Pierre, we were talking about, you know, Tether had just announced that they were going to bring Tether to the Lightning Network. I'm curious to get your thoughts updated. Thoughts on one sort of like user proclivity to use stable coins instead of like actually spending sats and where you see that sort of evolving or developing as as Tether in particular gets more involved on the Bitcoin lightning side. And and also just general thoughts on, you know, what were the conversations from last week around people building around stable coins as opposed to just building around sats of Bitcoin? Before Pierre, before you jumped in, we have about 30 minutes and like I, I don't know where Brian else wants to go and Liam, but I've been fascinated recently about this, the stable coin proliferation And I know you had a background in your consulting days and looking at flow of funds and interchange. So if you need to start from this top. Just curious in general like your thoughts around stable coins, how they fit into this global landscape and you know, if you want to jump directly to Brian, but we can spend some time here because I do think there's a lot to cover. We're seeing a lot happening in the banking system in the US and then also globally to to touch on and curiously at your thoughts. Yeah. So I mean, generally speaking, I think stable coins have, they're a great bridge for people to get into this space because you can allow people to spend, interact with U.S. dollar equivalent stable coins. I'm thinking mostly U.S. dollar because there are some other stable coins, but I don't know, they're not really used that much. It's yeah, there isn't the same liquidity. So I think USDT is what matters, USDC as well, but mostly USDT is, is kind of the, the gold standard of stable coins. And, and I think, I mean, they're great to, yeah, bridge the gap that exists between the traditional world and the Bitcoin world. And their utility is essentially what we're seeing, right? A lot of third world countries, they want USDT because it allows them to save in dollars, which is the currency everyone wants to save in as opposed to, you know, every other currency losing value faster than the US dollar, because these are the General Dynamics. So everyone wants U.S. dollar. Not everyone can get U.S. dollar, but everyone can get USDT and I think this this is very, very interesting. So being able to see this environment grow is very important. Now, one thing to keep in mind is of course, the fact that holding USDT is not holding Bitcoin and the, the US dollar loses value slower than any other currency, but it still loses value. And you know, holding Bitcoin. If someone is thinking more long term is, is kind of the, the approach. I think that that makes more sense. And when it comes to also bringing this into the Lightning network, I mean, it's the most efficient payment network, the most private and that is really growing in, in the Bitcoin space. Anything can be added now to Bitcoin. Anything can be added to the Lightning network thanks to Taproot Assets. Now tether sure they're announcing and renouncing and renouncing that's when will it come out? I'm I'm not quite sure hopefully pretty soon. I think, you know, maybe they're trying to align this with some of their other investments as well. Like, you know, they put a bunch of money inside of Rumble recently and the they are announcing their wallet that will be both Bitcoin and USDT wallet. So I don't know, maybe they're, they're, you know, waiting to make sure that the use case can be integrated there directly to make it boom. But but I mean, I welcome it to be honest. I think it's it's it's a good move because it will simplify the onboarding to Bitcoin as well on the most efficient payment network that exists right now in in the world. So yeah, I think it's just interesting to see and interesting to see how their entire model is going to work compared to sending Bitcoin over the Lightning network. Because there is the concept of liquidity on the lighting network where all the, the nodes where these payments they hop through, they need to have the liquidity of the transaction that is going through the nodes. So is this going to work with USDT? Because there, I mean, no node currently has USDT on Lightning. So is every single node going to have to also add this in order to be able to be a node that routes these payments? I don't know, Maybe they're going to use sats underneath to be able to pay for the routing of these payments. But then problems, I think user experience problems might come into play where you know, if you've ever made a transaction on any other blockchain that uses USDT. So for example, I tried paying once developer in USDT over Tron because Tron is the cheapest network right now to pay through USDT. Well, it's, it's a bit of a pain because sure, one thing is to have USDT and you can make this transaction, but to be able to do it well, you need to actually have Tron. I do not care for Tron at all. So you know, I'm OK buying the USDT, I'm trying to send it, but just buying Tron in order to be able to make this transaction very, very painful. And you know, for people that just want to be able to spend in USDT if they need, if they face the same user experience problem because all of a sudden they need to have USDT and they need to have Bitcoin, it means that they need to also go buy Bitcoin when they might not care about it, right? So you know, the question is, is this something that will be solved by the USDT routing of payments or will it be sold by the notes themselves and how they route these payments? That's that's the kind of question I still didn't get an answer to because I mean, yeah, we didn't have let's say main net, so production ready version of USDT transactions over the Lightning network. So question mark there to be honest, but but I think it's, it's pretty exciting, especially that what I feel is missing in the world of USDT payments and we're facing this at Flash as well. So you know, our wallet is, is using the liquid network and it means that, you know, there's a bunch of assets that are available in liquid. I don't care for most of them, but there is USDT and and that's cool because you know, we could offer already today and we wanted to offer USDT balances and supports directly inside of Flash. But the issue is that who us who uses USDT on liquids? No one literally, right? And so then in order for us to allow merchants to be able to accept payments in USDT this way, well then it means that we would need to allow for the conversion from different USDT from other block chains into USDT on liquid. But then how do you do that without introducing custodial solutions, which we are trying to stay away completely because there are solutions out there like Site Shift. Site Shift is great, very well integrated with the Liquid Network as well. And we'd be able to do that. But they are temporarily holding user funds and I think could be categorized in the future as money transmitters and it would put at risk our entire platform and users that do not interact with it at all do not care. They would also have the KYC through us, which is, you know, what we're trying to to stay away from. And I think stable coin on Lightning maybe could be the opportunity to simplify this because just like a lightning, I think is going to grow as being the payment network that links all of the different Bitcoin networks because they all have their their benefits right on chain is the ultimate that you want to be able to use liquid, I think is great in order to be able to start with a 0 balance. And Lightning is is a great solution for instant payments, but also to swap in full atomic swap. So again, no, no custodials in these kind of interactions directly from one network to the other, Lightning being at at the heart of it. So you know, is there potential for stable coins on lightning to solve this problem between the lack of interoperability of all of these chains? I think the potential is there, but but we'll see. Yeah. I mean, I guess there's two there's two aspects I when I think about stable coins, I think of and maybe for this topic we focus on like the individual and peer-to-peer. I think there's the other version, which is B to B and the opportunity that the stripes and large companies are are after and they're not going to be transacted on lightning or any or Tron for I guess TBD what that looks like, But I don't know if I've ever heard and I'm curious like Liam and and Brian, if you ever heard a good because even Liam, I'm sorry, Pierre, you sharing like if there's a great reason to put stable coins on lightning and like where that goes. The the best I had heard was ultimately the state between both nodes, not having to go back to the blockchain. If you're using it for like AI agents and you're having like Tether, like in dollars be able to be used and they're going to be, it's going to be so fast that you're not going to want to settle on a Tron or whatever. That's like what I've heard. I don't know if that's true or not. This is like above my pay grade. The thing that I will share that kind of doesn't make sense is like is this notion of inflation and people want stables versus bitcoins volatility. It's like a bitcoins volatility is pretty much in your favor. And if it's against you, well, you're, it's into relative or context to what's it against you and your local currency, right. And so it's more of like if you just obfuscate that it's Bitcoin you're holding and so you have AUS dollar price and then the number of sats. Why aren't people just holding sats? Because the thing that we didn't, I didn't mention is the counterparty risk of the, the other stablecoin you have, whether it's the blockchain or the, you know, whoever's holding the stablecoin or issuing it. So all that gets bypassed. It almost feels like just like an education thing where people are just like, why am I holding stables versus just buying this at, so that being done with it and, and reducing all of that. And that's a much global liquid network. Well, there are two things there that I think are worth pointing out. One is the privacy of the Lightning Network versus the other chains. And you know, it's interesting to see Palmer Luckey invested in a different stable coin that has no product market fit. Like all these defense guys just understand that like the flow of capital and like understanding the data of every user is definitely something that's of strategic importance, especially for, you know, a stable coin issuer that's going to be buying U.S. Treasuries. And then number 2 with respect to, you know, just holding S versus USDTI, completely agree, But I've also, you know, been in Bitcoin for a little bit of time, understand this deeply. Most people are just they're very risk adverse and think that, you know, Bitcoin just is way too volatile for them. I understand definitely the, you know, working capital needing at least some amount of USDT if you're in one of these countries where you have, you know, specific costs that you need to meet every month and Bitcoin could potentially be too volatile. But yeah, every time you have excess savings, it just makes sense to automatically sweep them into Bitcoin as long as you have enough capital that you can meet your working capital needs. I think that there is just so much education that needs to be done. And a lot of this is just like focused on the US where we have a bunch of savings, but you know, in the emerging countries where this isn't necessarily or there's not quite as much education, but there's more demand for these stable coins. It's just not quite there yet. Yeah, those are good points that like, I didn't, you know, discounted that Tether has a global brand like the dollar now. And so you're much more likely to trust Tether than the trust Bitcoin if you're in an emerging market for a lot of people. And so then if businesses are holding larger amounts of treasury balances. And then the other side of that, I didn't even think about that from the Andrel side, but that makes sense that there's just like Orwellian, you know, we sell Palantir and Trump or whatever this past weekend. Like these guys if they want to see into how the flow of funds are happening. That's an interesting dynamic when it comes to USDT over lightning versus versus over like the like on the blockchain. Yeah. 100%. Go ahead, Pierre. Yeah. So again, that's supposedly right because we don't exactly know how, how this is going to work, right. And so supposedly we'll be just as private for USDT over lightning as as Bitcoin is over lightning. But but we don't know that yet. That's that's kind of the the thing because, you know, there is also regulation around stable coins coming to the US And that's yeah, a big question as to how this will be handled and, and how this actually, because you know, there, there will be always privacy in how the routing of these payments happen over the lightning network. But it, it won't be SAT moving around the lightning network. The lightning network will be the the communication layer to forward these transactions. So we still need to see exactly what does it look like in terms of privacy that the, the, you know, whoever is initiating the transaction and whoever is receiving this transaction. And I, I don't know this yet, you know, but it. Makes sense. It's like Tor, it's whoever the nodes are that are you're coming in and out or where you're going to have the vulnerabilities and it's pretty that's going to be like Tether running the nodes. Yeah, essentially. Our agencies that just, you know, are looking to understand. I think at this point they're pretty much the same. So we're we're getting there. Yeah. Now, I mean, I know that there is of course a lot of work that is being done in the lightning space, but you know, that's where I don't know how this applies to USDT, but there is a lot of work being done in the lightning world to make sure that more privacy is added than what currently exists. The goal being that the routing nodes don't know who is the end recipient and who sent this Bitcoin originally. They just know who came before and who the funds are going to after. So this is great. If a similar model can work in USDT, well then yeah, I think I think we'll be good. But but again, it's it's not SAT flowing over lightning, it's USDT flowing over lightning. So I suspect it'll work in its own way with Tether at the middle of it. The the beauty of all this is like, and I think we all directionally agree, like, the cat's out of the bag. It runs with the Internet, right? The Internet's out. Free information will flow. And so I think that's why I get excited or I think about stable coins is it's just a gateway. We saw like a small example with Tether and Bitcoin and the pair and what it allowed people to get into BTC that now this is becoming, again, it's very Orwellian, but it's also opening up the aperture of the average individual that money is digital. And so the thing we didn't touch on here is like if somebody's coming in digital, then they can get into lightning. Well, then it goes back to the E cash component. And if you have all these different aspects that are starting to tie together because the cats out of the bag when it comes to stable getting access to Bitcoin in the same way of Lightning getting access to E cash or a proxy dollar, like entrepreneurs going to figure it out. Because the common thing you mentioned, the genius act is the banks and giving yield back. And like they don't historically do that. And that's like a thing that they're trying to put in or keep out, but it's like this reality that we live in a global market. So somebody's going to find somewhere to give you back a percentage. And that's where free competition comes in. It's just it kind of ties into the tether and like you're going to back your stable coin with BTC because it's the pragmatic thing to do if you're going to, you know, rely on it to hold your dollar peg. And so that free market example similar what's going to come over to Lightning and E cash and somebody can figure out a way to keep a static dollar, they're going to have credibility and then part of that is going to be privacy baked in. And then it just that's where we're at. It's just going to take some time. Yeah, yeah. And we don't exactly know what it's going to look like at this stage. But I mean, I think I'm quite hopeful, I guess maybe naive, but yeah, hoping that it it's only going to bring more adoption to the Lightning Network and and more liquidity as well, right? Because of course it's in tethers interest to make sure that the Lightning Network is more used and and you know, and actually I think it's pretty interesting when we're talking about yields and all of these different elements. When, you know, you mentioned earlier, Brian, the announcement that Square made about exactly 9.7 yearly yield on the transaction fees they take on the lightning network. I mean, to be honest, I was shocked when I heard that this like, isn't this so much cooler as a strategic Bitcoin reserve strategy than just holding it on some, you know, wallet and sleeping? Like at least it can be put to use directly on the lightning network generate yield while, you know, being secure and locked up in multi stick contracts for you. I think that's, yeah, it's pretty. Maybe something Maybe. For folks who don't understand what I have on the screen here, can you break down kind of what this means and why it is sort of an important step in the progress of Lightning Network generally? Yeah, sure. So essentially Cash App is integrated with the Lightning Network and they get quite a few transactions on the Lightning Network. Now for the Lightning Network to work again, there's different nodes and transactions just hop from node to node until they reach their destination. You don't know how many nodes it might go through. It depends on, you know, the node itself that you're connected to and so on. And So what nodes need is liquidity because when a payment goes through your nodes, you need to have the same amount that you're receiving to be able to forward it. And then when the transaction is settled, then all of this liquidity gets settled backwards as well. It all happens pretty much instantly. So it's very, very simple. But every node needs this liquidity. Now Cash App they have 184 Bitcoin that is locked in the lightning network it's multi sick contracts. So it's you know Bitcoin that is Unchained that is just locked with multi sick contracts so that this Bitcoin is essentially available through the lightning network and it avoids the double spending problem and essentially for each single transaction that is routed note and that that's optional, in fact, in how you set up your note, but you can take a fee for routing this this transaction and it's just a few SAT's or you know, depending on the notes that the price can go up. You can set it however you want. And so cash, obviously they're taking a fee and this fee means that because their Bitcoin is locked up in this multi step contract, so it's available in the Lightning network whenever a transaction happens, their liquidity is being used. Therefore, they take a fee for the usage of this liquidity and it allows them to earn 9.7% on the Bitcoin that is locked up, which is pretty crazy because I mean, what kind of instruments give you 9.7%? And in theory, this number can only grow over time if they keep on increasing the amount of transactions that happen on their notes and the amount of liquidity that they have through it. So I think it's just very interesting because rather than the strategic Bitcoin reserves where people just lock up Bitcoin on, you know, an on chain address. Well, instead they can lock it up and give access to more liquidity on the lightning network and get a really nice yield along the way. So I think that that was one of the mind blowing facts that came out of the conference for me last week. No, I, I totally agree. And and so on this chart, as you reference, you know, it's the 9.7 for the routing node. And then below that are sky savings rate, which I believe is just a high interest savings account at 8.1, USDC on Ave. at 4.2, which is D5 platform, federal funds rate 4.1 and then Eats taking below that. So yeah, it's pretty remarkable that this is outpacing other forms of yield importantly, without any sort of, you know, lending or rehypothecation to generate that yield. So yeah, super fascinating. This reminds me a little bit of it's definitely not apples to apples, but if we were looking back at either like search, like search with Google or like hosting services like via AWS in the sense that. This is only going to proliferate because there's a notion of like, I don't even know how real because they were working on this stuff for a while, but like ambos and whatever AI deal to help and route. But there's a notion of, well, that's going to compress and you know, Square is just closest to the money and they route so they have a high, but it's actually the opposite. It goes back to the whole Jevons paradox and like the more utility in use is going to drive more. And like ultimately I think it comes back to this notion. It's interesting that the square guys, I do a lot of stuff, but whoever's in that circle, they also have like really bad takes because I think they're on the against sats versus like the Bitcoin or whatever. And it's like the notion of very few people are going to start to interact with bitcoins, they're going to interact with Satoshis and sats and this proliferation of lightning is going to help with that. Whether it's exchange is built on lightning or E cash or how we like peer-to-peer via media advertising and sats are just going to be natural, just how sense were. But then this angle is everyone can potentially going back to the AWS or Google, like anybody can become a rowdy node and can invest heavily there and start to like part capital, especially if they're close to financial services. And so that's just the point of like as we get more demand and interest for Bitcoin and lightning on other layers, this is just going to actually grow. And then that's where that kind of quote, UN quote risk free rate of return comes in is that nothing's risk free, right? People don't blow up because they're going to just like mess up the the nodes and infrastructure because that's possible, but it gets as close if you have reputable players setting up these channels that can return a, a, a rate of return. Yeah. And So what I think is interesting is how is, is this at all actually going to apply to USD T on Lightning? And is it an opportunity for stable coin issuers to also increase their yield directly by providing liquidity for these USD T transactions on on Lightning? I have no idea, to be honest, because again, I don't have enough understanding on how exactly these things are are being routed. But that that I think would be pretty interesting to to see as well. Simply, you know the the interest that could come for stable coin issuers to also provide more liquidity on the Lightning Network, including in Bitcoin, in order to be able to make sure that all these stable coin payments are as efficient as possible. Yeah, I mean, I'm assuming Lightning Labs has something because like I know we're all the we're kind of walking around the dark here. But I feel like Lightning Labs and the implementation around these nodes has described some, some of like how that because there's an implementation, right that you would need to run. And then this where it ties into like what is your Lightning node route outside of just Bitcoin? And is it, you know, Tether, is it real world assets and what does that look like? And then how are you incentivize, I think is you still need the adoption of that? Yeah. Well, it's all very fascinating. Were you going to go somewhere? No, I'm good. OK. All right, well, we a little over an hour here, maybe a good, good place to wrap, where can people learn more about Flash Pierre, where should people download the beta wallet, etcetera? Yeah, so I mean, the easiest place to learn more is on our website, paywithflash.com. From there you can also access our wallet and join the beta testers. Of course, also follow us on Twitter. You can find us also easily from from our website. In fact, I recommend following me as well because I talk a lot about the the stuff that we do. And generally speaking, yeah, we're pretty excited about what's coming at Flash. We're last week actually, we were the payment processor for the Bitcoin Film Fest in, in Warsaw. And so we had a bunch of use cases. Well, we're going to have quite a bit of content coming out regarding that because our point of sale was used, our plug insurance were used, our store, it was just a lot, a lot of stuff there. So we're pretty excited about it. And yeah, and a lot coming in the in the following weeks, of course, invoicing tool for free, we're going to have Unchained payment supports and our wallets fully released as well. So yeah, pretty excited for Pro. It's coming in fresh. Beautiful. Yeah. I would encourage if anybody's individual or business that just wants to test it out or needs to accept Bitcoin and wants to spin up an invoice, it's really robust tool and easy to get set up. So yeah, check it out. Yeah, and you can also just write to medirectlypierre.corbin@paywithflash.com if you have feedback or need help getting started. Happy to support everyone. Beautiful. Well, thanks for joining Pierre. Always, always fun to chat and lots to look forward to. Thanks a lot guys. All right. Thanks. Everyone, thanks again for tuning in to another episode of Final Settlement. We had an awesome episode with Pierre Corbin, Co founder and CEO of Flash. We touched on the Bitcoin 2025 conference, some of the announcements that were made and then how they relate to his business flash and what they're seeing on the merchant and cross-border payments flows. Quick word from Onrim. As you all may know, we are the trusted Bitcoin partner for Bitcoin holders that are looking to secure generational wealth. I have it pulled up here. If you're listening on the POD, an Onrim dashboard basically showing some of the easy examples of how folks use this today, whether it's seamless setting up inheritance for multiple beneficiaries or being able to buy and sell Bitcoin through the dashboard. And then ultimately the multi institution vault, which is what underpins everything out of on ramp. Again, multi institution, multiple institutions that are regulated working on behalf of the client to protect their assets. The key concept here is that each institution works on behalf of the client, not on ramp, to move funds requiring multiple permissions, including video verifications with multiple institutions. That all comes with $100 million warranty insurance by Lloyd's of London. If you'd like to learn more, I'd encourage you to schedule a consultation or reach out directly. We have some really interesting ways we're onboarding folks. And if you're just not ready for multi institution custody, I would encourage you to check out On Ramp Trade which has no fees for trading until October. Againthatsonratbitcoin.com Look forward to speaking with you and hope you enjoy the show. Thanks for listening to this week's episode of the show. 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