Max Fear. Max Opportunity. The Bitcoin Bull Market Starts Now.

What you're telling me is that music is about to stop and we're going to be left holding the biggest bag of odorous excrement ever assembled in the history of darkness. 1974198792972000 and whatever we want to call this, it's all just the same thing over and over. We can't help ourselves. I say when we sell. Hey, OK. I say when we sell. All right, So this week we have an internal RIP for you, Brian, Michael, myself trying to get to the signal. There's a lot of noise right now. When we recorded, the price was in the mid 80s and sentiment is very poor at the moment. This is not isolated to Bitcoin. It seems like over the past week or so, there's been a lot of concern in the broader markets, the economy about a bubble, particularly in technology stocks, concern about the job numbers and the lack of job numbers that not job numbers that disappeared in October. So just uncertainty right now in the economy, the markets and Bitcoin is not looking so good if you're looking at it on a one month price chart. But we have to zoom out. We have to find the signal. It's still out there. So hope you enjoy this episode. Make sure you pay attention to the start of it. Pay attention to what Michael has to say. It may be something that you're interested in. And we're back. All right now. To the last trade we got to get the energy. This was that is my line. There was too much somber nature, Jackson sitting in Grandma's basement cabinet, whatever he's in, and there wasn't enough energy to start the episode. And we should all be very well. Restart here, we're back. It's the last trade. That is my line. It's not Michael's line. And you know, I actually did have this thought. It's funny that you mention that because ever since I got put in this new office, the price has just been tanking. And I don't know if there's anything to it, but there was actually a lot more bullishness at the time when I was recording from The Cave. And now that I'm in this fancy office, seems like the the price can we? Pull up. Can we pull the terminal for a second? Well, we, we just haven't done it. We we owe it to the people. Before we pull up. Don't make me do. That before we before we pull up the terminal really quick. So we have all these analytics, how many people listen, how many people start and generally the most right now at this exact moment. So let's maybe do like a it's either good omen, sacrificial lamb, whatever we want to call it. But I brought a hat. We took some to some very prominent bankers in New York the other day. And I have, I have an extra 1. These were made special edition. Actually somebody close to the business sent them, I believe in their network, the imperial hats. Anyway, it's a it's a very nice hat and whoever leaves a comment that has the most likes by the end of next next episode drops. I'm going to personally, because it's with me, because I wish I could send it to Jackson so that he would have to ship it, But I'm going to have to go or my wife to the post office and ship it to whoever has the most likes. So there's a nice honor and Pat, I think like we just need to boost the sentiment, get some swag and maybe, just maybe it'll be the nice, you know, switching of the the trend from where we sit today in Jackson's grandmother's cabinet to getting out of there and being able to get that nice land for his family and really flourish. Man, every time the office is shrinking, started with an attic and now I'm in a cabinet. But I like that. Let's see, you can get the most likes on the comment. We always appreciate the support on the show. So this is going to be a good Rep. We're going to get the energy flow and we got the price pulled up. Actually you can see here, you can look at the one year price on the terminal. We're looking at an 87 handle on the Bitcoin price, 87 thousand U.S. dollars. And we actually stopped pulling this up every single week when you can see where we were earlier in the spring here back in the 80s. So we actually have taken a full trip back to the mid 80s and before we hit record here, Brian was actually pretty bold up. And Brian, I don't want to steal your Thunder, but essentially nothing has changed, right? I mean, sentiment is in the gutter. It's actually, first of all, I don't really know how this index is tracked, but the sentiment is apparently as bad as it was when FTX collapsed in November of 2022, which is just wild to me. So why? Why is this? There's a confluence of factors right now. I think the biggest one in my mind is that everything that's on the timeline, everything that you know, people are talking about is very sentiment driven and most of it is anchored to these historical four year Bitcoin cycles. And so, you know, if you're, if you're just looking at that and you're doing some form of technical analysis, you're scribbling lines on the chart, it looks like this would be a place that maybe we drop, you know, 50 to 70% just in terms of historical timing, what the chart looks like. That is what a lot of people are anchoring to. The other factor that you have is the government was just shut down for the longest period on record, you know, month and a half basically, which had this abnormal sort of interim effect of constricting liquidity, right? As you know, Powell has said a few weeks ago that quantitative tightening ends on December 1st and we're probably looking at more rate cuts going through the end of this year and into next. So on the sort of macro liquidity condition side, as we talked with Mel Madison last week, it's we're really in a totally different position than we were last, you know, Bitcoin cycle top in 2021 in terms of the macro environment liquidity conditions, what the Federal Reserve is about to do, It's basically the the, you know, the exact opposite of of those situations in 21 leading into 22. And so I think there's just a lot of sentiment driven anchoring going on that is not looking at the actual fundamentals of Bitcoin as a neutral reserve asset, which, you know, if you look at the course of 2025 and even, you know, the six months before that, call it the past 12 to 18 months, the fundamentals for Bitcoin as a neutral reserve asset have only strengthened and increased. You know, just this week we have Abu Dhabi there investment vehicle increasing their exposure by I think like 3X to I bit Bitcoin ETF. You have Harvard a few months ago. You have Emery following Harvard's lead. So you have university endowments beginning to allocate to both Bitcoin and gold as sort of the sound money allocation. You have talks of debasement generally speaking. You have talks of the unsustainable federal debt and deficit spending that is only going to lead to more currency debasement and only leads to people seeking out neutral reserve assets which are scarce or finite, namely gold and Bitcoin. And, and, you know, I think Mel had a great point on last week's show as well around, you know, ideally the US government doesn't want inflation to show up in the real economy. So whether that's housing or just goods and services, they'd rather have it show up in purely monetary assets. And really golden Bitcoin are those two monetary sponges that can soak up a lot of the debasement that we're headed for. And so to me, nothing has changed in terms of like the overall Bitcoin thesis. If anything, it's actually strengthened over the course of the year and the price action, you know, it's, it's feel like we, you know, we say this all the time, but like you just do have to zoom out and recognize that a lot of what's happening with the price in the short term is noise. You have to ignore it. You have to think about the actual fundamentals of the asset. And most people on Twitter aren't looking at fundamentals. Technical analysis is the exact opposite of fundamental analysis. It's technical analysis. You're just looking at a price chart and drawing lines on it and saying it looks like it's going to go this way or that way. It's completely untethered to actual fundamentals of an asset. And so I just think that's where we're at is most people. Also our our friend Frank on Twitter had a great chart earlier this week that showed this most recent sort of drawdown is the largest short term holder capitulation on record in Bitcoin's history. So, you know, there's the narrative around the the OG whales selling and there has been some of that over the past 12 months. But this most recent drawdown is really a lot of short term folks who, you know, probably bought over 100. They don't really know what they own. They're looking for a quick buck in a trade and now they're scared and they're being shaken out of their position. And that's just what happens with Bitcoin. You get shaken out like that is what the price chart ends up doing to people because most people are not thinking about the long term fundamentals of the asset. They're thinking about the short term price action and making a quick buck. So all of that is to say I am extremely bullish. Like, you know, do I know what the price is going to do this week, next week, next month? No, not at all. But I'm pretty confident over the next 5 to 10 years that we're going much, much higher because of everything that I just referenced around the macro environment and the actual fundamentals of the asset. Jackson, can you pull up that one link taking it a step further? I know this is going to sound like hyperbolic, but it's really not meant to be like this is very bullish for most Bitcoin holders, Bitcoin investors in the sense of this was, I guess he's like the chancellor or former chancellor of the UKI didn't even know know this guy was just the I was thinking about this the other night and then I saw Matt Pine's tweet. It says, why is everyone having a meltdown over the Bitcoin price? This is what they want, right? They can start stack more Bitcoin for less basic economics. 10 years from now, it'll be such an insignificant pull back. And this is super important because yes, like Waller pocketbooks, retirement, you know, whatever it is that you're measuring in U.S. dollars goes down and and some like level of time period from where we're at, at all time highs. If somebody to Brian's point understands the fundamentals of the asset, they're just basically getting more Satoshi's for the dollar that they're putting in. And so it goes all the way back. This is where it's super relevant on how insane and preposterous the digital asset treasury trade was, was because not only do they not deliver value, there were no fundamentals. So when the price retrace, everyone pukes it out because nobody has any understanding of like why or how they were going to deliver value. Where when this happens, the people that have no understanding of Bitcoin to Brian's point, get shaken out, but the people that understand the fundamentals independent of the monetary setup, but that there's only 21 million, the credible monetary policy, the need for censorship resistant permissionless money or have only been strengthened, hasn't changed and you get more sats for your dollar if you're out in the economy producing goods and services and value to the world. And so it's it's very positive in that sense. And that's where the vast majority of people should be. Now, obviously, if you're building in this space, it's it hurts because you see it, your clients, if there's leverage, I mean, there are things on the margins where, but from an overarching like person just looking to preserve their wealth, nothing's changed and you're able to take dollars that they can continue to print, park them in this underlying asset. And then the last thing is this is where all the money is made because most people cannot withstand the volatility. They don't know how to custody it. And so anybody listening that's, you know, has material amounts of Bitcoin, they've had to get to the point of the volatility and understanding it. And then the custody when these things get figured out, when multi institution is standardized and the market understands you can't lose the asset. You also don't have to figure out how to convince your 85 year old grandmother how to use a Ledger. And then the other side of it is the market doesn't go and retrace 30% on a win, but it's a 3%. I think they just like halted or you know, in the past hour, the S&P dipped like 2.5%. It looks like a candle from hell. Point B is when it looks like that at 2.5% in Bitcoin and the market freaks out. The price would be hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars. And so this area of volatility and uncertainty is the opportunity, but you have to pay for it with patience and understanding of the fundamentals. So I look at it to be a positive for a lot of individuals. I. Was going to say one more thing just in terms of, and it may sound like coke, but like it is a silver lining in my mind that, you know what we do know both anecdotally from, you know, running our business, but also just, you know, being in the market and, and talking to other folks in terms of the institutional adoption of Bitcoin as a neutral reserve asset. Like there are people who have been getting up to speed over the past 12 months and they've been thinking about making an allocation, but it didn't, it probably didn't sit right with them to top blast it at 125. And so this type of dip back under 100, you know, a 30% plus correction is actually exactly what a lot of those people are waiting for. And so in order for a lot of these new cohorts of demand to come in, you kind of need this in some sense. And it's literally what we've seen for the past 12 months, right? This is a right where we're at today is a 31% drawdown from the all time high. We had a very similar one in April and then another one before that. I forget the exact month time frame, but this is the third one that looks very similar. And I think this is just kind of good for all of these new cohorts to come in because, you know, if it was just going up in a straight line, they would feel much less comfortable allocating. And so I think this sort of stair step up this chop salivation, whatever you want to call it, I think it's actually kind of a, a positive for a lot of these new pools of capital that want to get exposure, but they don't want to top blast it because that's just, you know, during that that's what they're trained not to do right, Like in in all other asset classes as well. No top blasted. I like that chat. Is Brian coping? Leave a comment if he's coping about the price action. One thing I wanted to call out too, Brian, I like some of the points you made there. One thing I've been thinking about is just the divergent between gold and Bitcoin, right? So we've been discussing gold more frequently on the show this year. Some people don't like that they think we only are allowed to talk about Bitcoin, but we're going to talk about other asset classes and you're going to like it. But you know, earlier this year, gold and Bitcoin are #1 and #2 in terms of year to date price performance. And then Bitcoin, I mean, certainly after the past week is even further lagging, is the worst asset class year to date. And gold remains very firmly in the first position around, I think 50% or so year to date. And I've just been trying to think about, well, you know, a lot of these assets, these two assets have a lot of similarities. And from an investor perspective, my perception is that people own them for similar reasons. The Fiat systems are sustainable neutral reserve asset geopolitical tensions. But I started thinking more about this and you know, 2022 is always the signpost a lot of people go back to in terms of the Russian, the sanctions of Russia's reserves. And I've been thinking about this for a while as like, well, that was back in 22. It's 2025 now. Why is gold still accelerating to the degree it is? And why is this been just such a blockbuster year? Because we've had this information. We've had this data now for three years. We know that geopolitical tensions are increasing and I was just thinking more about that in 22 and 23 where it was still a lot more tight from a a liquidity perspective. Rates were still higher. And gold tends to have that inverse relationship between the real rate of return, you know, using CPI and using the Feds benchmark and gold as a 0 yielding asset, you know, tends to do worse in high real return interest rate environments. And so I think we're getting out of that and that, you know, the geopoliticals sanction of Russia's reserve paired with the trickle down of interest rates coming over time, paired with the fact that this is truly becoming a global reserve asset to the extent it hasn't been over the past like 100 years, right? And through Bretton Woods through 1971, it's just been less and less gold in the monetary system. And that shift is re is, is starting to happen in real time for wherever it was like 10 to 20% of global reserves today. It's it's only increasing over time. And so I've been thinking about like, all right, well, on the gold side, it makes sense. The gold sniffing out liquidity conditions easing quicker than Bitcoin is ironically, because most people think Bitcoin sniffs it out before gold. You pair that with the fact that sovereigns are actually accumulating in scale, which we still have not seen with Bitcoin, right? That's been an obvious, I think, a mismatch between where expectations were at the start of the start of the year and where they are today. Everyone was all boiled up on the SBR. People were boiled up on all the state news early in Q1Q2 of this year. And all we've really seen is no audit on the US strategic Bitcoin reserve budget neutral allocation strategies that we heard about six months ago, nothing, no update there. And all we've seen in terms of the sovereign interest really is the, the Czech Republic National Bank allocating like kind of $1,000,000 or whatever their currency is, Crohn's, whatever it is pilot to Bitcoin strategic Reserve. So like, if I can summarize where my my head is at currently is, well, the sovereign bid clearly exists for gold. Gold has a more sensitivity to real interest rates. Bitcoin, the expectations were so high and the reality was so much lower than that. Yet the the easing is actually about to ramp up substantially. And Brian, to your point, like tie in, the last piece of the puzzle is Wall Street is really like on the sideline still in many ways, right? Like, a lot of the firms don't have trading custody. A lot of firms are still opening up ETF access. And most of these players are still trying to figure out like, what the hell is going on with Bitcoin versus the rest of the space. And so I think that's why Bitcoin is lagged so much this year. And I ultimately expect that Bitcoin would outperform substantially compared to gold in 26. Yeah. I mean, I think there's a couple things to unpack there that I don't, I don't necessarily know if gold is sniffing out the liquidity. I think like Mel talked about it last week, as far as we've never seen this level of liquidity tightening with interest rates, the level that they've been post 22 where they're at. I think there's more geopolitical issues when it comes to China net settling in oil in different countries, understanding that they cannot hold treasuries and effectively buy the goods and services they need on behalf of their individuals to maintain like the status quo around energy production and feeding. They're citizens. So they have to hold a harder asset. And the price of that appreciation, it's kind of inverse. The price of the gold appreciation is the same idea. How Bitcoin can easily move is it's such a small asset, like there's so much debt, not enough dollars. And if people moving out of that debt into gold, that would naturally cause especially like if the gold price is somewhat been suppressed and you're able to take physical delivery that's moved away from this like kind of like static or whatever the price has been, you know, the past, call it 20 years in the 800 to 1800 range. And then on the Bitcoin side, it's still a small asset relative to everything we're talking about South, any kind of liquidity constraints or deleveraging. We saw there's multiple angles that this could happen. This was the October 10th crazy perp stuff that may be unwinding. There's other things that could be happening here. But I think the broader theme is that we've kind of all been in a bear market this whole time, which is like not popular to say in the sense that because of interest rates, because we never hit gold all time high. And we've never really seen if anybody like looks around their phone and how many people that were their friends and family stepped into the Bitcoin market. The real bid was similar to the gold side, which was sovereign, some institutional, a little retail in the same way that on the BTC side, we know Abu Dhabi, we know UAE, we know other sovereigns are sacking that aren't telling us. We also know that the ETS had certain amount of inflows. But I would chalk that up to for 15 years, they haven't had an easy way to buy Bitcoin. So you turn that on in any liquidity market, there's all this money in those capital markets. So that turn on. But I don't think like we're actually even hit a bull market. And so that's where we just sat in the past year. We saw the price run up, but we actually haven't seen any kind of retail interest, any kind of crazy volumes. And so I think it's just a product of that. But the liquidity stuff, I don't necessarily think that's, I think that's a driving force to like how much money exists in the system and how it has to go somewhere that we got to 125,000 with unfavorable liquidity cycle and we're going to eventually have to turn that on because we just know it's easy math. There's too much debt, not enough dollars, and unless you inject more dollars in the system, the market naturally de levers. We have to get to a point where there's going to be an increase in liquidity for a number of reasons. And I think it ties into the fact that, you know, the jobs report just it was vanished. It was just wiped off the face of the Earth in in October. And it was the objectively the worst, worst round of layoffs on a monthly basis in over 20 years. And just like, oh, that's very convenient. We don't have the data anymore. And so I think there's just that. Also, it's kind of like this the market structure we've seen for the past decade or two, where actually bad news is good news to the extent. Well, all right, people are losing their jobs. That's going to impact the economy because there's going to be less consumption theoretically, if they can't get rehired somewhere immediately. Well, what are we going to do in terms of like keeping the economy going? We're just going to start sending out the the tariff stimulus checks. We have the midterms in 26. We need to get money to people. We want to stay in office. So I think actually all this bad news, it's really jolting the markets right now, but it's naturally going to have to fizzle out with more dollars entering the financial system and also the economy, in my opinion. I wrote about it in today's newsletter. To Michael's point, like it sounds crazy to say, but like, you know, if you're, if you're measuring Bitcoin and gold terms, we haven't really broken out. We haven't seen true price discovery of Bitcoin and gold terms. We we kind of tapped it earlier in the year. We haven't gotten back up there. And obviously gold is run. So that's a factor as well. But I think that that is, that's kind of where we're at. And, and part of me thinks too like, you know, if we're going to, if we're saying cycles are dead, the four year Bitcoin cycles are dead, it may actually be advantageous for the year for it to break proverbially to be this year when you know, it was supposed to be a green year. If you're just looking at the pattern of green, green, green, red, green, green, green, red that we've seen. If it breaks this year and the red is like marginal like -5% and then the next two years are green and then maybe the the 4th year after that is like marginally red again, like that's actually probably prefer preferable than, you know, if we were up 30% this year and then down 60% next year. So I think, you know, there's a lot of Silver Linings here. And again, like all of this, all of the sentiment is not being driven by fundamentals. Like if you are focused on the fundamentals, if you're focused on the tradify incumbents, all the fintechs that are still figuring out how to play this, there's been a ton of M&A over the past couple months. Like this isn't going away just because someone drew a line on a chart. Like, there's a real disconnect in terms of what people think online and what's actually happening behind the scenes globally, not just in the United States. So everything is, in my mind, super constructive in terms of like, Bitcoin fulfilling its destiny as a neutral reserve asset. All those things have progressed this year. Yeah. Maybe the the last thing to say on that is the liquidity of the cycle might have been tied more to liquidity than anything else. And it was probably a convergence of the having of the supply coupled with liquidity. But if in this cycle, those are basically deconverging where the halving has a less of an impact and the liquidity hasn't been there, that's where you see a unorthodox or or different cycle structure. But again, it just means that it's kind of like elongated doesn't really change the dynamic of Bitcoin supply demand constraints and quote, UN quote, animal spirits were just a proxy for human behavior. When that changes, you end up with these crazy cycles, the blow off tops because people go over their skis and leverage and all these things and you're just getting accelerated business cycles and Bitcoin because there's no circuit Breakers and there's no bailouts until eventually in a free market. That's what's supposed to happen is businesses go out out of business, others rebuild, they learn from it. They don't get malinvestment. And so I still think we end up in these like quote UN quote cycles where there's blow off tops and we go into these mini bears. I just think that the construct of the 1st 15 years on a potential thousand year asset may not be the playbook forever. When it comes to holding Bitcoin security, Peace of Mind starts with architecture. Onramp's multi institution custody distributes control across three independent regulated key holders and a two of three quorum. No single point of failure, no pooled or omnibus exposure. Segregated client titled faults. You retain full legal ownership while Onramp coordinates security, compliance and operational workflows behind the scenes and strength of money delivered through the simplicity of 1. Multi institution custody is the foundation for everything. We build sound infrastructure that distributes counterparty risk and provides fault tolerant resilience with clear audits and institutional controls. And now on Ramp is piloting flat predictable pricing making best in class Bitcoin custody and financial services more accessible now than ever. On Ramp strengthen many simplicity in one to learn more, check out on rampbitcoin.com. I'm curious what you guys think about Brian, maybe you've been closer to this. Why has the sentiment shifted so quickly in the broader markets around the artificial intelligence narrative? Like why all the sudden is there all this concern about this being. I saw a survey of fund managers and 53% of them responded with this AI bubble, they're calling it being the number one tail risk that the fund managers were concerned about. And then I saw another stat similarly that that spoke to that same concern. And I'm curious like if you've been paying attention at all to their earnings reports that have been coming out and just like general investor, investor sentiment there, why do you think all of a sudden there is this concern popping up? There's a few things. I mean, you could look at the Michael Buries of the world just calling it like calling it a bubble like that impacts market sentiment around what has been happening. I think the one of the more important sort of dynamics at play is that there's immense concentration in terms of the contribution of returns from a handful of companies that are related or adjacent to AI that are driving the S&P and the NASDAQ. So there's a greater recognition of that as it accelerates, as it gets more and more concentrated, it looks like it looks more precarious to the average investor. The other, the other critical point of all of this is like the circular nature of a lot of the spend and funding. You know, I wrote about this a couple weeks ago in the newsletter, But like, that is also making investors feel, you know, a little cautious around this whole trade because there is a lot of circular logic in the spend with no real, no real like concrete, concrete like payback periods or return on invested capital. Like there's, you know, theorized return on investment capital. Like I think A16Z had a report a few weeks ago and then CO2 had another one where they tried to map out like how they're, you know, foreseeing returns on all of this spend. And it's like they came out to like 20% over the next five years, which like doesn't feel like enough in my mind for the amount of spend that's happening. And so I think it's it's a compliments of all those things. It's the Michael Bury's calling it out, you know, and he may be right or wrong on on his thesis. I think, you know, his thesis or his theory is really around. Basically, he thinks these companies are manipulating the depreciation of the assets. There may or made happy truth to that. I've I've heard the other side of it as well. But all of that is to say like it. It's just, it seems like a crowded trade one. And two, it's driving the broader equity markets, which is concerning. Like if you're being realistic about just equity markets broadly, if there's a ton of concentration in this industry or this space where there's real, there's no real visibility or line of sight to returns on all the spend and investment that's happening. It's kind of just like we talked about this, Michael, like the, the proverbial goal or the return is so great in, in their minds that the spend is actually irrelevant today. Like, and your forecasting of the returns is irrelevant because you can't even fathom or imagine the value to be created, you know, when someone achieves AGI, for example. And so I think it's all of those things that are just making people more cautious around it. But you know, I think as we talked about last week, like kind of doesn't matter to, to a certain extent. And I, you know, I don't want to sound flippant, but like we are in this melt up period where like all these things are going to continue to go up because what else, what else would you invest in? You don't want to go into negative yielding bonds. So you're probably just going to keep adding to your S&P and NASDAQ exposure and hope that this trade doesn't unwind before you're, you know, you're able to monetize some amount of that. Yeah. I mean, it reminds me a lot the question of like the Fed and interest rates and where they're going. Like it's hard for me to address it because it reminds me of Fed speak in the sense of nothing changed, like nothing's changed with the liquidity crunch, liquidity that needs to be injected, what Bitcoin does in that market. In the same way that the AI trade was always a trade that was rooted in lack of fundamentals because embedded into what he referenced Brian and and bury on the depreciation of the asset, the debt amount that initially it was supposed to be like revenue that was funding these projects. Now they're taking out debt. When you look at will inherent to that trade is deflationary in the sense of people will lose jobs. People like the you, you can't repay back the exact unit economics of what you're baking into how you're going to repay it because things will go lower. It's been a mimetic trade and it was like really post 21 and when the market delevered and interest rates rose, you needed almost a narrative to park a bunch of capital and AI was that. And then you needed the markets to participate, whether you're private equity venture, even public equities was the AI aspect. When it's come out publicly that most public traded companies don't even use AI. They don't even feel like when you take a poll that they're using it in a way that is adding to productivity. And so to the question of what you described, Jackson, it's just it's just a narrative German. It's the same thing with as much as we want to believe that the debasement trade is understood, it's not that was like somebody the night before on Sunday saying, hey, turn on the debasement trade and everyone starts talking about it and you just hear it pick up. And right now it's like the AI thing is, you know, overcrowded, deleveraging, not not fundamentally sound, but again, it doesn't matter because once liquidity gets injected, everything goes back on because where else are you going to park your excess dollars? And you need places and their net, their narrative driven more than anything. That's why the mean coin thing is funny because it's very similar to just a regular market. It's just in a like more acute version of the Ponzi, which is you're just like, this thing has vibes. So I go for it right now. It was AI and right now there's a liquidity crunch. There's other things going on with the government shutdown that everyone's picking a thing to say. This is the overcrowded trade. And the second that changes with liquidity, everyone's like, oh, we're back on. It's like, well, why are we paying attention? At the end of the day, too much debt, not enough dollars. You want scarce assets and you just need to go back to producing value. Jackson to your original question of like, what's what's contributing to the sentiment? You know, I think a few weeks ago there was the report that open AI was like asking for a federal backstop. Now they walked that back. But like that is a signal to people that like maybe this is unsustainable if if those companies would need a federal backstop. So I think that scared people too. Yeah. I mean, I think you guys made a lot of great points. I always anchor back to like, what do you do, right? I mean, people have been talking about the concentration in the biggest companies in the United States for a while now. It's only getting worse. I think we're at 35 to 40% of the S&P 500 is the MAG 7. A lot of the MAG 7 has invested very heavily into these technologies and they're driving a lot of the growth. So unless, like, you just are incredibly bearish on this technology and, you know, you'd rather hold bonds and have negative real returns, and I don't really know where else you go. Or if you like trying to move out of your grandmother's attic and you want to buy a house, then, you know, maybe you do take some off the table. But yeah, there's not many places to go. Generally agree with the thesis there. And then one other thing, Michael, that you flagged was the block investor Day. I was curious if you have any thoughts there because like amid all this, amid all this crazy stuff going on in the markets, in the Bitcoin space had really, you know, really strong investor sediment, strong presentation yesterday at the investor day, the stock prices ripping, we've seen square merchant adoption. What are your thoughts there? Yeah, Maybe just right before that, one thing to call out, is this the exact reason why gold belongs in individuals portfolios? Because I think on time horizon and specifically if you're an older individual, but then also conviction and confidence. Imagine you're sitting on, you know, whatever your portfolio is, it could be 10 million, a 100 million, a billion dollars. You're coming up the curve and understanding Bitcoin and you feel a retrace like this. Like if you don't deeply understand Bitcoin, well, you probably weren't going to park a large percentage of your assets there. But if you did and didn't deeply understand it, now you're looking at the market with a 30% drawdown. But that doesn't also preclude and mean you should just be in equities that are overpriced like we just talked about and in bonds that are negative yielding. And that's where gold has a perfect position sizing to sit there, reduce the volatility while also still being long the same trade of the basement. And this is really the rationale that gets missed by most individuals from an early entrant coming in and saying, OK, I understand gold. I can look at the volatility profile. It's nowhere near what you know, for thousands of years it's sat as a hedge against the basement of any currency and I want to sprinkle on some Bitcoin as I get more and more convicted. It's a perfect asset for an individual all the way to a large institution or multi billionaire that may wake up and understand this market is insult insolvent, but they also aren't ready to ape in to BTC and so it's just a real interesting dynamic that people can't understand. Gold sits right next to Bitcoin and it's perfect. But anyway. Yeah, it's a fairpoint. I think the one challenge there is the obvious physical limitation, right? So if you don't want to have the counterparty risk, you want to have physical gold ownership, then well, you can do that. Certainly, but none of these billionaires are taking physical delivery of the BTC. So it's the same thing and you. Get, but I'm not talking about them, just talking about like I would imagine you would rather own physical gold than you would rather own GLD or or Fizz, right? So I get where you're coming from. I think I would agree with that. But it's just a matter of like, well, OK, you could if you do think markets are overheated, you want to sit and something that will still preserve purchasing power, but you want to do it the right way. There is some friction there because then you have to buy it physically and then you have to go to market to sell it and then you have to get the dollars and buy something else with it. It's just like there are there is friction there inherently with gold ownership. There is, but that's a product of an over financialized world that has been long the 6040 and so product services entrepreneurs haven't built Bitcoin type products that we're familiar with today when it comes to separately managed accounts insured vaulted in areas that are regional. Like I expect all that to start to exist as more and more people wake up to understanding these both of these things. So I don't I think like that's a limitation today, but it won't persist in the future to just like key people to be like bitcoins, the only thing. Yeah. No, I get that you want to talk about block. Yeah, the block thing, there's two aspects of it, block yesterday and maybe Brian can dig deeper and because I just saw it from a cursory level, but I guess completely crushed their earnings. It was interesting stat and they have like 14 to 24 business lines that are generating over 100 million in that profit across them. But what I thought was the most fascinating is maybe it's post. This is really where the administration and overhang come together of like air cover in an organization because mile suitor who's been involved with them for a while and in the Bitcoin space, he's been behind the scenes building cash app and he was recently on Marty's pod and did a really good recap for anybody interested in just understanding not only where they came from, but just like how hard the internal dynamics are to get a company of that size, even with a leader like Jack to fully embrace Bitcoin. And it sounds like the past 12 to 18 months, there was a really strong concerted effort to just drive that. We need to be winners here and we need to effectively from a cross functional perspective, start to like integrate these services around Square cash out because those are basically different businesses or historically have been. And it sounds like post that and then a lot of the sentiment this year had them come out with like world class tools to really further Bitcoin adoption. And this is some of the underlying fundamentals that have not changed. They've only increased. When you think about I think there's 54,000,000 merchants that they have, there's maps that they included to find merchants accepting it. I think one of the biggest ones most people are interested in is that now merchants can sweep any kind of amount of cash flow into BTC. And then also merchants have better tooling to ultimately show their product in the terminal where I think there's still a little work that has to be done. But the Cash App user can use the Cash App application to pay for the goods and services, never touch Bitcoin, never have to deal with cap gains, but they can bypass as a merchant the interchange fee. And the interchange fee is people here 2 or 3%. It's really much greater than that because it's 2 to 3% on gross, but that eats into your bottom line net profit. So it's much greater that 3% on what your net profit is a still, you know, it's a larger number than just the gross revenue. If you're only making X, there's a larger percentage than what that's taking a chunk of. And so if there's economic incentives, which everyone's always understood that if a merchant has the economic incentives to want to acquire or have their client change the user experience by just tapping or using a card, you can now start to get greater and greater adoption. And so I think it's super bullish on what they're doing. And again, it's just something that's happening under the radar while there's all this like sentiment that exists currently in the market. My perception I I still I need to listen to to miles on Marty's pod, but you know, my perception of block historically has been like, this is kind of always been the master plan. I think it just like took longer than most people expected it to because of, you know, Jack's leadership. I think people expected a lot of these things to be turned on like a lot sooner than they were. But I think, you know, obviously it's always more difficult than it appears on the surface to implement a lot of these things and execute properly. But the biggest, one of the biggest takeaways from all their recent announcements to me was, and, and you sort of alluded to it, Michael's like the ability for someone to not know that they're using Bitcoin and, you know, pay in dollars. Like maybe they don't have Bitcoin and they just want to pay in dollars. But the merchant on the other side of them happens to like Bitcoin and understand Bitcoin and want to receive that payment into Bitcoin. And it can happen seamlessly with, you know, no friction like that. That's the biggest thing to me because, and we've talked about this at length, is like the real sort of UX story for Bitcoin as a medium of exchange and also a store of value going forward is basically tightening the fidelity between dollars and Bitcoin and reducing the friction as much as possible to the point where people only don't even need to know necessarily that they're using Bitcoin, but. If someone, you know, at the other side of their trade does want to use Bitcoin, they can and it's all interoperable and very seamless and not a lot of friction. And we we move that gets us to a world where people understand I spend in dollars and I save in Bitcoin and they're right next to each other, interoperable, exchangeable at very low cost at very, you know, very quickly as well. So I think that was kind of the the broader take away for me is like this is a huge step just in terms of getting to that place where more people understand that dynamic. 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Yeah, and maybe the last thing, it's too easy. It's not meant to dunk on it. It's just meant to explain right now, because when the price comes back, we'll hear more, more noise is this is the definition of proof of work and producing value and it preserving wealth and also furthering kind of like what is happening here is when a business delivers goods to the world and then is able to get educated and giving the tools to transfer that capital is being debased into BTC. That's the treasury company adoption. That's the stuff that everyone that's long Bitcoin should be advocating for and evangelizing and talk about because you're basically strengthening all of it around versus the opposite is when you're taking out debt and leverage that exists in the system to go buy more Bitcoin, which allows for all other individuals to hold less BTC in a trade that has no fundamentals. It's just completely counter to everything that is happening here and nobody fundamentally talks about it or gets it. And so it's just like, I'll call it out till the very end because it's just a ridiculous thing. And I've it sucks to talk to like clients and individuals that are so far underwater and they just assume everyone's underwater because everyone went along. And I think like 90% of people holding Bitcoin have some form of digital asset treasury exposure. And it's just like there was a altcoin account that had a great tweet yesterday. It was like, hey, if it's any of these things, any like slightly retrace, make sure you go sell that and then just don't do any of that dumb shit again. Michael can't help himself. He's got a dunk on the treasury companies. You know, that's one thing too, though, is in terms of actual corporate adoption. There were so many narratives around that happening 12 months ago that we were going to see more corporate adoption, but we haven't seen virtually any of it. I mean, this outside of what we just discussed, which I think is really big news. It's incredibly important from like a merchant perspective and getting Bitcoin more integrated into businesses all around the world. But we actually haven't seen like public companies step out and add Bitcoin to the balance sheet. I'm sure private companies are doing it, but you know, those are just not being disclosed as much what I just. On that note, it makes complete sense. Like imagine you went long Bitcoin by taking out a home equity line of credit. Or you Max out all your wife's credit cards and then your friend sees you go up but your wife tells them this is what you did to do it. They're going to think you're insane. It's the same idea. If you have all these shell companies going and taking out debt and then you have somebody that produces economic value and you go to your board or shareholders or CFO and you're like, this is how they're doing it. We don't have to do it exactly like, well, what? This looks like a crazy Ponzi. This doesn't look like fundamental accumulation. Yeah, and I'm not arguing with you. I'm just. No, no, I'm just explaining. I'm, I'm explaining to you why it hasn't happened is because like it looks like a bunch of crazy noise. It doesn't look like some. So you're thinking that is your case then that like people, the boardrooms executives see the, you know, pureplay treasury companies and think that that is what a corporate strategy looks like. Is that what you're saying or no? No, I'm saying it's the opposite. I'm saying when you have a caricature of what ACEO is supposed to look like, like Michael Saylor out there basically telling you to like sell your kidneys for Bitcoin, it's the worst type of evangelism for that area of the market. That is like people that produce economic goods and value to the world. That makes it impossible for them to rationalize how they can park a small percentage of the asset because that's how you get real adoption, not by people taking on leverage, creating, spitting up shell companies. In the analogy I was explaining, maybe it wasn't clear was if you're an individual that is preserving their wealth and got ahead when your friends didn't like, it's a lot easier to evangelize that this is a better form of money versus if you went and took out like second mortgages or you were levered up versus all your credit cards. And they're like, this guy seems like a nut job. Like this doesn't make any sense. Yeah, I didn't, I see what you mean now. So tracking there and then I didn't get to fully finish my thought. I think it just like, well, what you, what you said makes sense, Michael, in terms of like public perception of what a treasury strategy looks like. And you know, Michael Saylor saying to, you know, mortgage your home, take take loans out and buy Bitcoin at the top. Not a great look. There was a reply to one of the slot memes yesterday from Clifford asked us who's like a triadfy guy who like he doesn't understand Bitcoin but he understands how ridiculous that looks that the the CEO chairman is like just doing AI slot memes and not like explaining why the stock is down. He's just saying never back down with AAI slot meme like that. That is what Michael, I think you're referring to is like the perception of it is just, it's like insane to the average person. Yeah. And it's a paradox because look at Figma, look at Square, look at Tesla, like these companies produce some, we can, you know, theorize on how much value, but they actually produce goods and services that deliver some level of value to the world. And they have to shut up about the trade of Bitcoin because that is not their business. So they paradoxically can't be loud about how this is better because they're just too busy delivering value to the world. And then you have the opposite, which is just like I think today these dats and at least Etherium, Etherium, I feel like I never had a list. But when you say Etherium, there's like a convulsion that comes out is they're like just puking out these assets because I think Saquon's was another. It's not about even dunking on the trade. It's about trying to express to other people because this will come back, not to lose their ass. All right. Yeah, No, I get that. The thing I I did not get to fully, but, but no, I also think that there's an aspect to it as well where everything is very short termism, right. So I think there's just less pain that people are currently experiencing at the corporate level as it relates to inflation. It's obviously still there, but it's not as rampant as it was and in your face in 2020 and 2021 when all hell was breaking loose. And then the other thing as well that is a tailwind or should be a tailwind for Bitcoin adoption at the corporate level would be just like the banking as well. So I don't, I think both of these things, the rampant inflation and censorship, financial centers censorship that we saw in like 3 or 4 years ago is a little bit more muted today. But that's not to say that those are of course coming back, especially on the inflation side. I'd certainly say with like where things are going on digital ID, central bank, digital currencies, we're going to see certainly a lot more financial censor, censorship, man, I'm having trouble with that one today in the next decade. The problem with all of that is it it really doesn't matter. It's only number go up that people buy into. Like that's that's the thing. It really is like that's why institutions come in. They're not like institutions at the end of the day will make number go up or number go down where we're heading from the size right, of where the asset sits. And they do not care about any of it except for is this a trade that can make them more money and that brings in more adoption, price goes up, brings more awareness, more confidence, conviction. Like all the other stuff really ends up being noise. That's why number go UPS the best technology. I kind of disagree with that though. I mean, not I don't disagree with the idea that that's the best, but I disagree with the idea that people don't care about the other things like you ever. I've spoken to Canadian investors, right at corporates and individuals, and a lot of them will cite the stuff that happened back with the the trucker protest is like financial financial censorship was like the reason why they first got interested in Bitcoin. I I agree. What I'm getting at is like we're at a $2 trillion market cap. We have 10 to hundreds of trillions to go. Those individuals that move the needle and will increasingly like what you're describing is a sophisticated Bitcoin investor that's had to, we could have taken 2510 years to get there. There's no institutional allocator that's sizing this based on any other fundamental outside of like it's scarcity properties and like back testing what it's done in a portfolio. And they have nothing to do with any of what that guy said. I know, but I'm talking about corporates. But anyways, I was talking about like private companies and public companies, not institutional investors. Well, but my thing was twofold. So maybe you disagree with the censor censorship piece, but the second piece was the inflation is like it's there, but it's not there to the degree it was five years ago. And so that's my, that was one of the main points I was making is Bitcoin maybe is less attractive from a corporate balance sheet perspective to the degree your dollars are not getting devalued at like a 15 or 20% annualized clip. And if it's happening at like a three to five or 10% clip, then maybe you stomach it and you can pass on price to to consumers. It's just not true though. Like that's again, Fed speaking gaslighting like inflation is 10 to 15% to 20%. Go look at what a rib eye cost. We just had this discussion with a bunch of bankers and everyone. Like a rib eye is a perfect example because the amount of economic inputs that have to go in from the land to the feed to the production to getting it to the distribution. And so inflation is anywhere between 5 to 15%. The reason where the market coalesced is you're conflating or it's like a fallacy in that sense. That liquidity was running in 21. Inflation was a byproduct of that. There was a lot of dollars being able to move, so risk assets went on. So that's why the asset went on. It wasn't because inflation was ripping and then people looking for a hedge against that because inflation still ripping. And the point mainly was that number go up is the reason why people come in. It's not because they associate Bitcoin as this hedge against inflation. Yeah. I mean, I agree and disagree with like certain things of what you're saying, but I think we should move on either way. Ryan and I saw a couple of things on your side that we didn't get to that were interesting. Curious if anything sticks out. And if not, the thing I was going to want to pull up was the the municipal bonds, the bit bonds of New Hampshire. Thought that was interesting, something new to discuss. Yeah. I mean, we could talk about it like I actually don't think it's that crazy. Like I, I feel like we've seen little drips and drabs of examples of this of like pilot programs. We're going to do XYZ. Like, you know, the New York mayor a year ago saying we're going to do bit ponds. Nothing ever happened. Like it's a cool pilot project. You know, I think the on the, if we want to take the custody angle on it, I think they're storing it with a single counterparty, which doesn't feel ideal for a long, you know, a long duration sort of Bitcoin infused muni bond. But you know, it's good to see. I want to see more of it, but I'm not like overly excited about it necessarily. Yeah, this reminds me of the Czech Republic stuff. There's a lot of stuff we haven't covered, but there was a Czech Republic buying $1,000,000. The other side of it is though, like it has to start like this to some extent, like you know, you're not going to see the actual thing immediately, like you have to see these types of pilot or beta tests. So in that sense it's certainly positive. The other one I brought if you wanted. To couple of. I thought the, the, there was a report from the IMF, funny enough, that did basically an analysis of currency devaluations since 1971. And it lays out, you know, pretty overtly just the peril of Fiat currencies since 1971. And there's a few lines in there I think worth pulling out. But basically the take away is like there's a line in there that says virtually no one is safe from a large currency depreciation, meaning like, you know, it could happen to the dollar too. And it will. And it kind of is already was sort of the take away that I got from it. But there's a lot of good data and charts in there that just speak to level of debasement that's occurred since, you know, we left the gold standard in 71. And obviously it's not AUS centric report. It's looking at all instances of of currency devaluation since that point. And it's, I think I forget the exact number, but it's in the hundreds of the amount of currencies that have really collapsed since that point. Yeah, I see that line there now. I pulled up the report. Virtually no one is safe. A large depreciation, go ahead. I think. This one's up to the cracks. A couple, a couple bullish things. We we glossed over. We can go deeper, but I didn't, I didn't want to call out there was a lot of the M&A and investments into this asset class. There's just not that many assets. And when you're a Triadfy firm or public markets, you know, when you think about DCG going public cracking, I believe it was 200 million that Citadel invested and they raised like 800 million and then we mentioned it. But Abu Dhabi tripling their position and then Harvard, I think tripling are like very close to that in gold and Bitcoin. I do think these are important heuristics because while we're talking about the market and, you know, prognosticating or pontificating on what's happening, at the end of the day, people are moving real large sums of capital because the right ends on the wall that these things don't go back in the box. And those are more objective than the subjective takes. We're like kind of viewing on like what's currently happening. Yeah, We'll have to see after this quarter wraps up. It's going to take a while, but we'll have to see what the 13F data comes through on the fourth quarter. I'd be curious to see if any of these institutional allocators have pared down a position. I would imagine not just because they're not going to add to a position 1/4 and then divest of it or you'll materially reduce it the next quarter. That just doesn't make sense in terms of how these allocators tend to think. It's more so decade type of approach. But yeah, I mean, there's just a lot of selling pressure. And Brian, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts. Like do you agree with me there? You think that it would be shocking to see that Harvard or Emery are large and down in foundation with Bitcoin exposure to reduce exposure quarter over quarter? Yeah. It kind of goes back to what I was saying before around this market structure and price action We've seen for the past 12 months, what you'd actually expect them to do is be lagging into the trade. And so I think we've gotten a few data points of that being the case in terms of people increase or you know, these institutions and entities, endowments, whatever it may be, increasing their position. I mean, it's not impossible, right? Like you could see them trim or completely exit a position, but all that would tell you is that they never understood it to begin with and they didn't actually have conviction and it was more of a trade as opposed to a long term allocation. So I, I would err on the side of like, I would not expect to see that. I would expect them to be adding on weakness because that's generally how you set up a long term trade. Is is you buy an, an initial slug and then you like into it. You use the volatility to your advantage. Here's what keeps bitcoiners awake. You're still securing millions of dollars the same way you secured thousands That hardware wallet in your drawer. 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I thought that's this is just really poetic and and fun because they're kind of like, so it's one taking advantage of like the the culture of like trading and what they're doing. But also it's kind of like describing Bitcoin because I guess this was like a play under the radar. I don't know if you guys saw it where Robin Hood was like rolling out. And I don't know if this is fully rolled out or just testing. But whether it's like go puff or Grubhub, one of these technology apps that will deliver food, they'll deliver bags of cash. So you can like, you know, get out of a position and get dollars if you need to spend. And it just reminded me of, you know, Bitcoin like traders and you can just take the Bitcoin, the stable coins or go into your bank account, get your dollars. Like they're kind of describing this other form that's existed for a while and gains. I don't know if you guys have thoughts there. And I was just going to go into the all the prediction stuff because the polling market guy calling out the the the gambling markets as like Ponzi's or whatever. It reminds me very much of like crypto of. Everyone's except for your. Scam or a registered security except for your like yeah the. Prediction stuff is is very, very funny, like we we've talked about this in past weeks, but like everything is be becoming gamified and casino ified. And like there were a couple other headlines that I added that were, you know, calci is one of the major ones, probably markets the other one, but you know, they're all these different partnerships, right? So you're just seeing the blending and the merging and the convergence of all these different things that allow people to gamble on literally anything. And so Cal she partnered with Stockx, which you know, they sell sneakers and other collectible type items. So now you can bet on the trajectory of a collectible, which is just insane to think about. And then Coinbase also is going to launch their own prediction markets via Calci. So another partnership with Calci on that side, merging sort of crypto with prediction markets. So stocks, crypto, collectibles, gambling, sports, all of these things are converging to just move people out the risk curve, make leverage bets, try to hit a home run because, you know, the nihilism is pervasive and people, you know, don't know where to turn. And so it's kind of, I mean, it's, it's sad and it's nefarious that like these companies are now basically taking advantage of that nihilism and just pushing anything and everything to people to speculate and gamble on when, you know, people should just be storing their value in a better form of money. But most people don't understand what's actually happening here. And this penetrated all the way to I'm sure you guys saw like the MSB deal Mohammed bin Salon when he there was maybe he didn't. He was I guess whatever it was with the the NVIDIA CEO Trump and whatever and Musk, I think it was some I don't even know what the reference. I think it was an AI summit. But Long story short, is he referenced? Oh, you know, I heard you can make a bunch of money here in this country by like betting on what suit I wore. And I guess you got it wrong because I'm not wearing a suit or whatever. But yeah, it's just a. I think it was probably like a subtle dig, too. It's just the, you know, the American gambling markets. Yeah, it's definitely a slop economy, that's for sure. I mean, I don't really have too much to add there. Did you guys see my my office cabinet has been exposed, had some some video issues here, but yeah, I don't know, sad state of the economy where just people are looking for a quick hit. You know, I'd actually saw something similar. I forget which one of you guys just mentioned it, but I've seen more and more takes online about how crypto is essentially throwing in the towel. Like more and more people in that ecosystem are saying, yeah, like 9095% of this just going to 0, maybe like more of it's going to zero. And we just have to accept that like the Super cycle is more so in stable coins, like there's actually a use case there. Like Bitcoin continues to have a use case for a number of reasons. But I think it's just interesting to see that. I don't know if it was just people getting wrecked a month ago in October that just totally destroyed sentiment. But also the fact that if you look at and people always will point it out, but if you go back and look at price performance of some of like the top 20, top 20, top ten, top 2050 tokens over the past like 4 years, like pretty much none of them ever hit like all time high. So it's like constantly having to try to pedal something new out, have the narrative behind it sell at the right time. And I think people are finally getting exhausted. The point where it's like, yeah, there's actually nothing going on here. We just have to maybe be truthful about that. So I promise I'm not saying this to either A be contrarian or B disagree with you, but like if we have, if we have to be true, like we're called out the sentiment on like Bitcoin Twitter and Bitcoin influencers. It's it's noise. It's the same side on the crypto side saying it's dead. Yes, it's always been dead. It's the same way. Like, well, is AI overcrowded? But I was like, well, it was always a non productive trade for the whoever is investing. The reality though is that there is no shortage of capital that still believes in digital assets in these different primitives that they'll be able to create real world assets, perpetual futures and just like all this tokenizing just everything under the sun. And that's a little bit different. And specifically, if you take into the vantage point, if we have been in a bear market, well, there hasn't been these like use cases outside of like prediction markets and stable coins where people have galvanized around it. But that happens with the bull market because as more dollars come into BTC, it naturally gets cycled out. People get further on the risk curve. Even if the Bitcoin doesn't get cycled out, institutional investors are looking for other things because again, they don't fundamentally understand Bitcoin. And so they're thinking, well, there's these other assets that I can make money from. So I just caveat like, yes, on on Twitter, there's this like insular world that's becoming increasingly irrelevant on understanding that like, well, maybe I was kind of dumb and long crypto this whole time, but I still think Triadfly has a ways to go to like not doing this. And and by index of Citadel investing 200 million in Kraken, like that's not a Bitcoin company, you know. And so like that's just the Canary of we're just very early to all this. And even though the crypto people that have been here for 10 years recognize this is all noise and there's no value, prob like the rest of institutional investors are not there. Yeah. But maybe there's a little bit of a difference in terms of like investing the private company than accessing public markets compared to like my perception of it is, yes, I agree there's always going to be like or not always who knows, But there is for a while going to be Wall Street interest in like some of the top other crypto assets. I mean you see it with like the Solana and the Etherium staking ETP products like this stuff is happening. But I do think that I don't know if it was October and the events there, but I think sentiment, you always think sentiments bad in our space. And again, it is a bubble. The sentiments way worse in the crypto space. And I just fundamentally believe, like, yeah, Wall Street's going to participate in this industry, but they're not going to participate in 99% of the industry that's existed for the past 10 years. There's always a new new narrative. There's always a new shiny thing in the broader crypto space. But it to your point, Jackson, I think what you're getting at is like it is different this time in the sense of it's not we're going to decentralize the world and there's sort of been a bending of the knee to the central centralizing forces. Let's just build, you know, faster, cheaper databases that aren't necessarily purporting to be decentralized, which has been the theme of prior crypto narratives and cycles is like, you know, decentralize the world, all these different types of things, which never had sound fundamentals. But now there's sort of a tacit admission of like, no, we're just going to like, do stable coins, real world assets, prediction markets, which are marginal innovations in terms of the maybe access to various rungs of of investors, but also just the the speed and efficiency of transactions. Like there's these marginal benefits to these different crypto projects, whether it's in the stablecoin, real world asset or prediction market space, but it does have a different flair or flavor to it, which I think is what you're sensing. Jackson is like, it's not. It's not as much of the, you know, crypto native decentralization, cyberpunk type vibes. It's more like, no, it's just like, let the banks and Travi and fintech people come in and kind of take over a lot of this stuff and run with it. And it's going to look and feel a lot more like centralized systems and look and feel a lot more like traditional fintech than what the crypto crypto people had been saying for like a decade. Yeah. I mean, I kind of agree, but I think like the North Star for these people is Coinbase and Coinbase is gearing more towards decentralization. They're obviously offering other products. But when you think about launching base point being is it's a new, they were all centralized. It doesn't matter. They're all centralized, like they're all centralized databases, including Solana that could be turned off, but that's not the narrative that they're explaining. And they're also developing a token on it where people can get warrants to make money. So the point I'm trying to get at is that institutional allocators are looking, it's inherent to investing $200 million into crack and you're investing in the casino. And that casino is marrying what Coinbase did because Coinbase is the darling with its market cap and what they've done. And so the story is, well, we're going to be another type of Coinbase, There's other institution. So that's the point of like, they're just not equipped. Like if Kraken came out and said we're just going to be a Bitcoin custodian, like who's interested in that because they believe that there's other things happen in this sector. Yeah, no, I agree with that. All right, let's see. Anything else you guys want to chat about? Nothing really. Strikes pull the terminal back up. Where's the price? It's just good. Let's get a little pulse check. It's just going lower. All right. 86 handle. Boom. Yeah, we're about 1000 lower than. We're we tried, we tried, guys. When this comes out tomorrow, will we be higher, will we be higher or will we be lower tomorrow? Should we should we get a prediction on Cal she going for that? More bets, more speculation. Speculation on top of speculation. All right. I think we'll call it. Thanks gentlemen. Thanks for listening to this week's episode of the show. 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