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It all comes down to computers communicating. The information superhighway can be a confusing mix of on ramps and off ramps. Bitcoin is worthless artificial gold. Is it still rat poison? Probably rat poison squared. We need to get into the world of OK, this is actually foundational technology. What the Internet of Money does is it creates a single network which can do a microtransaction to a giga transaction. The Internet is going to be one of the major forces for reducing. The role of gun. The one thing that's missing that that will soon be developed is a reliable E cash. All righty gentlemen. Welcome back to another episode of Final Settlement. Today is Monday, March 30th, 12:13 PM Eastern Standard Time. Gentlemen, how are we doing? Well, I was just wondering, how many weeks do we have to record this podcast at $67,000? Is there is, is there a time? Do we just, do we hang back? If, if people wouldn't mind, if they would, they wouldn't mind missing us for a week. Just comment, comment like and subscribe and then comment and be like, hey guys, don't. Don't kill yourself every week. Maybe there's, there's price thresholds where we unlock a new episode. So we, you know, we don't record again until we're over 70 and then maybe like 70. Two, there's things happening, but they're just less around. There's some stuff happening, Bitcoin and digital assets, but it's the broader world that is there's. We just got to be careful how much we cover there. Maybe people don't care. Yeah, beware of the algos like the It's tough to, it's always been tough to discern signal from noise, but I think it's particularly difficult over the past few weeks given everything going on in the world. But, you know, I think it was kind of a big week, Michael. We were, you know, in the group chat prior, prior to recording this morning really good. You know, it's kind of a slow week. Not that much happened. I kind of think some, some important things happened. So maybe we'll we'll jump right into it. This was a story from last week, which we've we've covered to some extent because this is sort of a compounding story, if you will. We knew about it a few months ago, but there's more and more information coming out. So this is Morgan Stanley entering the Bitcoin ETF race. And so this was announced a few months ago that they would be doing this. What we've talked about previously is effectively this is a departure from Morgan Stanley's typical sort of strategy that they're not a huge ETF provider. They don't do this often in terms of putting their name on a fund like this or product like this. And they are, you know, effectively going to compete with Ibid, Black Black Rocks Bitcoin ETF. And this came out late on Friday afternoon last week, that they would price the spot Bitcoin ETF at 14 basis points. So I think Ibid is 25. I think there's a few others that are maybe in the 20s, but basically this is now the cheapest Bitcoin ETF product on the market. So they're, they're undercut, undercutting the whole complex. And to me, this is a pretty strong signal that they they aren't playing around here. They're they're playing for keeps. This is this is game on in the sense that, you know, not only are they departing from sort of their typical strategy around products like this, but you know, they have their sort of everyone else has had a two year head start. So you know, I've been in particular is at 6070 billion in AUM as we sit here today. So they got some, they got some catching up to do and this is one way to do it just undercut them on fees. And this is also something we've talked about in the past around, you know these ETF wrappers if they're not super differentiated in any meaningful way, the ways you differentiate are effectively brand name distribution and then ultimately the free fee rate. And so I think that's exactly what we're seeing play out here. Thoughts guys? Yeah. I mean, I think this is fascinating. There's a couple things that come to mind. One is to your point, they're playing for keeps or they're they want to be a real player in this new digital asset world. I think we're going to have to have Chris Kiper on to talk about it. But I'd put them up with like Fidelity as the most sophisticated at this point. Now, I would still give the leg of Fidelity for being around 10 plus years building a lot of that platform out. But everything that we've seen and heard from Morgan Stanley is they're planning to play a big part and not only Bitcoin, Bitcoin custody, because they're not only just doing the ETFs, like they're fundamentally different than what Blackrock's doing in my view, because they've expressed that they plan to build custody solutions, spot Bitcoin buying. But the other thing that I think is really interesting is that they recognize, and this is part of why I'm saying that they're one of the most sophisticated is they're playing for keeps because it is the thing to play for keeps for that. If this asset is going to grow long term, you're going to monetize it way beyond just those 14 bits because you're bringing it into your platform, you bring it into your ecosystem. If you're going to inevitably and see that people will allow for delivery, well, what better way than to pull that asset at 70 thousand $80,000, pull it away from BlackRock and then build other financial products, whether it's spot custody, because most of their significant their clients are sophisticated their high net worth private clients. They understand that they will want things above the ETFI think this gets lost on the market that the market may think, oh ETF will persist forever and it's just a Bitcoin natives that don't like it or doesn't make sense. It's like, no, no, the most sophisticated participants, the mortgage stands infidelities understand that their high net worth clients, clients that are worth hundreds of millions of dollars and have 10s of millions, if not hundreds of millions of dollars in exposure to IVIT will demand better products over time from assurances SM as there's a whole slew of reasons why they would want that outside of a wrapper. And the kicker is Morgan Stanley's a bank. And that's what obviously made this interesting, right? It's because it's the first bank to do it. But then the banking experience, when you're able to let loan to lending happen against that asset, mortgages just anything under the sun, they will be in a better place to monetize those assets. So it seems to make a lot of sense that a, you're able to undercut the market, still monetize it, but then ultimately bring those assets in. And that's, this is really probably just a cornerstone of their digital asset strategy. They have a lot of other things that they're working on. Yeah, well, sad. And I think the one thing that's being missed when considering this too is by building their own custody and house and their own system around digital assets as a whole, they're going to not have to outsource to Coinbase forever. Obviously they're using Coinbase for the custody and I believe some trade execution at the stage in the game. But being able to do it in house similar to I think Falcon Action bought Invesco and was able to bring that ECF in house. And so one, they obviously want to get as much assets under the platform as they can because that'll start to get them a lot more interest just with the asset holders as a whole. They were the first ones I believe from the very start when I bet started offering their ETF, they offered it to clients and and were able to solicit that when not all the other banks were being quite as digital asset forward. And so, yeah, I mean they also are willing to I this is speculation, but they, I assume that they're going to be losing money right at the beginning unless they are able to get a ton of new clients on the platform. And we haven't seen any firms out there that are from the traditional finance space take any sort of long time horizon view on the asset, in particular BlackRock, it was like their most profitable ETF year 1. And so, yeah, I mean, I think this is going to be a massive boom for the space and and the smart move by Morgan Stanley in particular and should be a a good catalyst for the industry that has locked one for the last, you know, four to six months with this launching in the next two weeks or so. Yeah, thanks for pointing that out. It does sound like this is going to be launching pretty pretty soon in the next few weeks, which is exciting. And then the only other things to to sort of reiterate and pull out and and muggily you mentioned this, but this is the first bank, real bank issuer. So if you think about BlackRock, Fidelity, these other Bitcoin needs, you have issuers, they're all sort of asset managers. They're not actually traditional banks. Morgan Stanley is the first real bank to be doing something like this and they have over 9 trillion in sort of client advised assets, which is just sort of mind boggling of a number. And they have 16,000 advisors. And previously to this announcement of this product, they have been they had sort of formalized a recommendation around crypto, Bitcoin, digital assets of sort of 0 to 4% in portfolios. And previously they were basically allowing their clients to invest in I bit or Fidelity's ETF within that sort of 0 to 4% band. And this move is effectively validation of there's real client demand there, but we no longer want to see those management fees to Black Rock infidelity. So we need our own product to capture those fees for ourselves. And so, yeah, this is this is a big deal. The other thing I'll point out is I think there's a fee waiver. So I think there's on the 1st 5 billion, I believe it's no fee. And so another, another signal that they want to get strong sort of swiftly out the gate with this thing. Yeah, it, it sounds like this morning it just got approved. So I would expect it probably starts trading, you know, at least this week if not next. This is interesting from a market structure perspective of like demand, because I think retail buyers have historically chased price. And it's not to say that private wealth clients won't trace chase price and momentum, but they're a little bit more agnostic, especially if the advisors are able to solicit. And and it also ties into it's just a different buyer. Like you can imagine, you know, bitcoins always had this like platypus style appeal where has different properties and different value props. And they don't have to be long the dollar ending. They just have to be long, whether it's like tack or innovation or whatever, digital gold, whatever they put in front of them. It's just a different dynamic than Bitcoin needing to RIP to 110 before they step in. Now obviously people will step in there, but I do think it's an interesting component because we saw this happen with I bet and the demand that have been, you know, kind of latent until that product was released. Yeah, 100%. And and sort of as you mentioned, this is part of a broader sort of institutional infrastructure build out. So I wanted to switch over to this clip, Morgan Stanley's Head of Digital Asset strategy, Amy Oldenburg, talking about sort of some of the other plants. So I'll play this clip here. SEC. Even on the institutional security side, the one thing that we wanted to talk about today is turning on our dark pools. So our trajectory cross to support tokenized equities by the end of 2026. So this is happening this year. There's a lot of activity in all divisions and and we'll continue to power through 26 and then more to come in 27. Yeah, I thought this was fascinating. I mean, there's a couple of things. One is this team has been looking at this space for a very long time. Hopefully we get up there this year. But Brian and I attended the SALT conference. I think it was inaugural, inaugural 1 back in 24 and got a chance to sit down with Amy and really understand their level of not only sophistication, but just like thesis on where this market is and where value will accrue. And it wasn't around 1001 crypto currencies. It was around real infrastructure. And I think the after all these conversations, the way to distill why I find the tokenization aspect interesting and is like a Canary to where bitcoins growth will come from is that we all understand that the token just represents a claim on some something underlying somewhere else. It's the same way the dollar, the dollar still inflating and somebody still holding the treasuries. But there's a current arbitrage happening right now across legacy rails, right? Because that's all the dollar movement on stable points is, is like, OK, now anybody can build effectively like a neo bank and then it manages money movement in a more efficient way. In a great angle or anecdote to share is the MoneyGram CEO I guess was on a panel. Because this was. Explained from the guy was he was on a panel with during the DAS conference and he was saying that crypto Bitcoin tall scan but stablecoins are the best innovation he's ever seen because he was referencing that instant settlement he's had forever. The problem is he had to put up a $3 billion float to get that instant settlement and his stocks only trading at a couple billion dollars. So what he's effectively dealing is now able to leverage stable coins, go rebuy back his shares. But then he's starting to think about in the market of like, well, now if everyone can hold those dollars, do I give them a wallet? Do they generate interest? Can they spend on it, right? Like it just opens up these all these things that just didn't exist before. And so that's where I think the tokenization aspect will be interesting is regardless of its dark pools and the inefficiencies around moving those equities into whoever's authorized to participate there or if it's secondary markets or if it's private markets that have historically been really hard, any liquid, I'm not saying it's positive or negative. It is just a arbitrage on the inefficiency of the legacy system. And the problem is that the legacy system made a bunch of money via that bureaucracy and all of the, you know, 9 to 5 whatever occurred where they built their moats. And so now because of the administration, a lot of the non commercial and commercial things we can say around the incentives, you're just going to have the firms that are willing to play ball and build on this new frontier. And it's it's kind of cool because they're doing it, but also anybody can do it. We talked about Alpaca as an example, a firm now that anybody can integrate equities into their market. You don't have to become a broker dealer. So I think it's just fascinating that they're looking at it. They see the market being disrupted and they're deciding to disrupt themselves before somebody else does. 100% All right, the other big story. Wait, wait. So before we move on to Morgan Stanley, so. Go. Go for it. Where do we think? William just accepted a job at Morgan Stanley. That's what I thought. That's what I thought he was going to say. Where do we think that the their ETF is in terms of AUM by the end of the year? If I bet at around just over 50 billion right now, just under 800,000 Bitcoin held. Fidelity is just under 200,000 Bitcoin and like 13 billion. Where do you guys think that Morgan Stanley's Bitcoin ETF is at the end of the year? I would say just shy of fidelity. Shy of fidelity. Yeah, I think for this year, I think it'll be I think the set the other part of the question William didn't ask, but. It's price dependent, right? To some extent. But is it? I kind of think it is like I think. Well, you could do it in each in Bitcoin terms then too. Yeah, no, I'm, I mean more like things accelerate rapidly in my mind if like the Bitcoin price is moving up as opposed to just chopping sideways for the rest of the year. But I guess like I, I guess maybe what Liam's asking and the the question is more of price stays 70 to 100K bound, how much demand comes from their 14,000 advisors soliciting? Right. Yeah. So I had rent some numbers last week and basically if you did. You ran the numbers. I, I read a few back of the envelope, back of the napkin numbers. If they, if their entire client pace allocated half a percent, it would basically be like half of IBET. So call it 3 to 400,000 BTC. If they did 1% double that. So basically rivaling IBET. Now their entire client base is not going to allocate right? Like that's, that's kind of probably not the way to think about it. But on average on sort of a look through basis, maybe they get to .25 to .5% because some clients are going to allocate 10/15/20 percent and others are going to do 0. So I kind of think that they'll surpass Fidelity perhaps and start rivaling a bit towards the end of the year. One question on that from your experience, I mean for either of you guys, but mainly Brian because of being at the bank, what what would you say is the amount of flow like let's say Brown Brothers decided to launch an ETF. What percentage of flow that went from Brown Brothers accounts into I bit would move over into the native platform And then what percentage directionally would people not that get off 0 that had not because the advisor solicited? Yeah, great question. I think it's multifaceted and, and in some sense, you know, if I'm comparing it to, to what I saw, because it's, it's a perfect question because we had both external products that we brought into the platform. And then we also had internal products that were managed by Brown Brothers investment management arm that we would then sort of solicit to our private private banking clients. And the uptick on those was always greater than any of the external products because it was basically like, not only is this your best thinking from an investment perspective, but this is an in house product. Why would I not support what you guys are doing? The fees are typically lower than anything that we would have gotten external. And so all that is to say, the uptick is pretty high. Whether you know, it was even the external stuff that we recommend to clients, it was still because it was coming from our recommendation and we were soliciting to it like the uptake was call it anywhere from 50 to 75% on anything external. So there's, you know, maybe 1/4 of clients that would opt out of certain, certain funds or strategies. And then on the internal stuff, it was like probably closer to 90% of like people are going to be allocated to those things. It's. Pretty bullish, especially like you got the backdrop of the fundamentals of Bitcoin. But then if you're saying well and it's also lower price by well that's about 50%. That's right. Well, I'll caveat all of those numbers I just threw out in the sense that you know what I'm talking about in terms of those recommendations. You know, it was all equity strategy. So it was things they were familiar with, right. It wasn't, it wasn't Bitcoin. So I think you could probably haircut those numbers by a little bit because it's Bitcoin and not something that every client is super familiar comfortable with. But yes, anything that's internal and being actively solicited is going to have a pretty high uptick, generally speaking. Yeah. I'm I'm going to forecast right around the Fidelity mark just because the new product, it sounds like some folks probably will immediately sell their IBET and buy MSBTC because they would have to lock in capital gains on that till, which is annoying for some folks who want to optimize for taxes. And then Fidelity just has all of their spot BTC too, which I don't know exactly how much they hold there, but I would imagine it's probably just about the same ish as their Bitcoin ETF that they cost today. So I'm going to go about where FBTC is like 200 to 250 KB TC. I know we've kind of been this, but one like other angle just to add is because it came across last week, but it continues to is there is a lot of holders like spot Bitcoin holders, self custody on ramp, whatever it might be. That won't put any retirement assets or any kind of like ETF assets into anywhere except for Fidelity. And they won't tell their their friends or family to go into anything other than Fidelity simply because of custody, because they look at Coinbase and they see a risk. And so that's just going to be something very interesting to watch play out because Fidelity again, maybe it wasn't as kind. They're probably the most if it's getting because they actually built out custody. And that is a real differentiator now. But then definitely in the future when risk comes out and you're just offloading and even Morgan Stanley had to do this to get to market as go through Coinbase. So I do think, I do think that's going to be a growing issue. We obviously have, you know, what we think will be the future, but I think that's going to be, it's going to be interesting also on because I've talked to ETF providers on like, and I don't know what the SEC response and, and pushback would be if they offered even in a like diversified custody arrangement similar to like I think Valkyrie or whoever. I think Valkyrie got bought, but at the time they were doing like Bitco and Coinbase that there's a reality like that. They could differ if they could to diversify because when with one of the firms or guys I was talking to last week, he's probably listening is his, he works with one of the ETF providers and nobody really knows about that. They didn't get a lot of flow. They focus somewhere else. But the point being is that it's a real differentiator to advisors. If you can be able to say like, oh, this is a different form of custody, like more assurances, but it's still early. But I expect that to pick up, especially when like most people forget, remember when Bitcoin got to like 120 people were freaking out about Coinbase because at the time it was Coinbase sitting on like 800 billion in total assets. And so you have this honeypot and then you have, and most people don't understand the terms of service. There is no, there's no assurances, there is no insurance. Insurance is, you know, window dressing so well. It's going to be an interesting thing to follow to on custody and differentiation on a long enough timer. 100% and we will move on. Only other thing, William, to your point around cost basis, Morgan Stanley didn't start allowing their clients to invest in the other Bitcoin ETFs until like August 24. So it's unlikely that their clients have a cost basis around like 40-50 because by August, I think Bitcoin was well over where it is now or you know, 607080 perhaps. So I would say depending on when those clients came in to the other ETFs, like I bet they could be underwater and it could make a lot of sense for them to switch into Gordon's product. OK, we are going to move on. The other big news item from last week we'll have a few Coinbase related topics, but this one is I guess somewhat of a +1 in the sense that they announced in tandem with Fannie Mae and a company called Better Coinbase Power is the first crypto backed conforming mortgages. And so basically, you know, in practical terms, what this means is you can now pledge your BTC for effectively a down payment on a home and set up a sort of Bitcoin backed mortgage, if you will. This is interesting from a number of aspects. I'm curious what you guys think I mean, to me the biggest take away is like, you know, why is this interesting? It's because it's, it's different than just taking out a loan and putting down a down payment in the sense that the terms are are sort of unaffected by bitcoins volatility. So there's some risk being taken by Fannie Mae and I guess better in some sense that, you know, you're not, you're basically, you're not going to get mortgage or you're not going to get margin called on this product like you would in a, in a typical Bitcoin back loan. So that's why it would be, you know, generally attractive to someone who's looking to buy a house, has a lot of Bitcoin. Now there's obvious draw drawbacks with this. It's cussed at Coinbase and so you have single counterparty risk with this and it's a a long, long duration product. So do you want to have your Bitcoin encumber that Coinbase for the next 30 years? Probably not, but curious what you guys think about this. Yeah. I think this is pretty fascinating and just big for the industry as a whole and for folks who don't want to sell their Bitcoin. It is pretty over collateralized. So I believe it's 40% Lt. VS. So it should be able to be able to handle some downturn. But I think in general, this is a really, yeah, what's to say, yeah, like it's Bitcoin price or the value of the mortgage is completely unaffected by Bitcoins volatility, etcetera. I think that this is big for folks who don't want to sell their Bitcoin and just Bitcoin getting cross collateralized further with other assets out there. It's interesting that Coinbase, despite, you know, posturing themselves as a everything app and, you know, spending a lot of time on sports gambling and and all Coin casino is really only pushing Bitcoin as and USTC as the two assets that they'll offer for collateral at this point, which I think just shows a little bit more on how different folks are underwriting the actual viability of a lot of these tokens long term. I think that this is a massive thing to see. I'm I'm just honestly surprised that this is such a big news through better. And it sounds like the rates are a good bit are higher than getting a traditional loan with other collateral outside of, you know, if you just have equities or cash or whatever. So I would just imagine that this market gets more and more competitive over time. There are more lenders who are willing and able to actually go out and do this as well. But great to see. Yeah, this is AI was working on a diagram to to pull up on this. I think this is huge. I think the net of it is we can get, we can hit the nail on the head in the sense of there's underlying market structure problems with like if you're going to trust Coinbase with a 10 to 30 year collateral obligation. But the reality is we have to start somewhere And there's been a lot of wealth accumulated in Bitcoin. It's also interesting, right? It's Bitcoin is not a theory or Solana, but it's a lot of wealth accumulated in Bitcoin and the market has treated individuals with Bitcoin holding as like aliens. They don't want to work with them. I was actually just I had a lot of conversations. So I have a lot of anecdotes. I was talking to a client last week and he referenced that, you know, he's pretty long BTC and all different form factors, ETSIRAS, personal accounts, spot custody and he needed to buy a home and and he couldn't lend against his ETF holdings from a like the origination of that capital, right, because they want to see it in your bank account for a few months and then it naturally needs to come from, I think, depending on where the bank is. So they couldn't see it. They looked at I bet. So he effectively had to like spot sell axe hundreds of thousands of dollars to get his house right, because a lot of individuals listening, they probably know it's like it's generally a guy thing where you're like, look, I don't mind renting, but you know, your significant other wants you to buy a home. That's societal pressures, whatever it is. And so you have to really work through, you know, timing the market, the tax obligations, all the different things that go into it. And so the ability to, it's still relative. Like the big value props here are no liquidations. And then the interest rate are going to be, yes, higher than a standard conforming loan, but it's still lower than what the traditional market is the cost of capital for private markets when it comes to taking out just a Bitcoin loan. So you don't have that volatility risk of getting liquidated. You have a lower, you know, blended rate from the house mortgage. You have like 1 general, you know, mortgage or or monthly payment and you retain the appreciation. So you don't have to pay the cap gains and you retain the appreciation. If you're a long BTC, it's a real interesting movement. And then I guess the last part is that these mortgages that are issued by better are conforming. So Fannie Mae and the the powers that be, the government effectively will buy them, which allows for more capital to come in. Because if they were not conforming, then it gets more complex when it comes to who's going to buy those loans from a capital perspective. So it's very cool to see. I think this is just the beginning. We've been talking to folks that are looking to build things on the space, but for real sophisticated clients or people that understand, OK, this is great, but this is the V1. Do you really want long term Coinbase to hold those assets and you want anybody to hold those assets for 30 years. That's the real problem with custody is no custodians lasted X number of years. So to expect for a long duration financial instrument to be there for 20 or 30 years is, is still a question. You want to get that assumption out of the way. But either way, I think it's very good to see from a market structure perspective and just really like from, you know, triify realizing this thing is collateral, this thing does allow for people to buy homes and there's going to be a lot of banks, I think interested in a model like this. 100% very well said, got to start somewhere. This is a great V1, but there will be more. There will be more of this because it's a product that people need in a sense that to your point, there's been a lot of wealth created with Bitcoin and the the intuition is to not sell it because there's there's more upside ahead of it. So but people need to live their lives, they need to buy homes, they need to do things. So something like like this makes a lot of sense. OK, moving on digital asset roundtable, stablecoin segment of the show, Michael Stanford topics. We're going to talk a little clarity at I don't know how much new news there is here. It seems like we're continuing to sort of move forward in terms of this debate. Some people are mad, some people are happy. I think Coinbase with Jurid's support again and now save coin yield in Crypto Clarity Act is saying it won't allow rewards on balances. We've talked about this in the past. I think there's going to be basically a compromise, some sort of negotiation compromise around effectively A qualifying action, if you will. So they're not just going to allow you to have completely, you know, just stagnant balances doing nothing, earning these rewards. But if there's a qualifying action, there's going to be sort of workflows and, and workarounds to, to allow these things to, to pay quote UN quote rewards or stable coin yield. Maybe Michael, I'll hand it to you because I know you've been, you've been following this closely and, and what's the latest or, or how do you think this all shakes out ultimately? Yeah, I mean, it sounds like this has all been hanging by the thread of like whatever Coinbase wants to go because my understanding that Coinbase has been the one holding it up. It's, I mean there's, I haven't thought deeply about it, but it's kind of interesting that they are the ones holding it up. It sounds like from market participants, like people in this market, investors, builders, they just want something to be passed. They see the clarity as a strong sign for their business to move on. I think there's like this implied overhang of that once this, you know, is past, we're going to be in a better position for the price of digital assets or Bitcoin. But the the one of the learnings, and maybe this is obvious, but because Coinbase is the largest donator to the I forgot what the pact is on the political side is that the politicians can't afford or do not want to go or against or dissent to piss off Coinbase because they effectively pull that capital. That's my understanding of like why they hold so much weight. So yeah, I think everything's moving. And the exact same thing we reported on last week. I do think this probably ends up sooner than later simply because there's a lot of, I think, administration goals and incentives to get this in place for market forces. And so, yeah, I think my, my gut shot is that this is done by Q2. Yeah, I would imagine that there needs to get something done before the midterms later this year. And just because it seems like Republicans are projected to lose, Democrats seem to be a little bit less friendly to the digital asset space as a whole. So while this definitely isn't perfect and seems to, you know, not necessarily create the best outcome for consumers, is is typically the case they're they're likely will be something done and should be a catalyst for price. 2 two things just to to call out here 1 is I don't know why I was thinking about this this morning, but you know that whole term of like people say you don't hate the media enough. I don't think people hate the banks enough because if you think about it like the banks pay you nothing, they overdraft you, they charge insane interest on your credit cards. And this technology opens up to democratize. And then also further, because I don't think anybody questions that stablecoins will provide more efficiency and innovation for just like capital movement and they're against it. It's just so it's a pretty wild proposition. So there's that aspect and there's this other one where I don't know who this guy is. I think he's somewhere. I mean he has a dot E, but he has his term because WAP had brought something into their marketplace, which WAP is a standard, like, you know, technology marketplace for goods and services. He put what non crypto people don't realize is that crypto makes it a possible for every app and just put like dollars to become a bank and offer yield on balances, payments, investments and a lot more. Every app where people get paid, Instacart, DoorDash, Uber, etcetera, will become banking and brokerages. I think this is something that fundamentally almost everyone's missing. That's not really looking at this space because if you're Uber, DoorDash, Best Buy, whatever that gives gift cards, these are effectively like a similar mechanism where you can bring in, carry that float, pass it back as a customer acquisition or retain it for your balance sheet. And then ultimately you can start to build better. You know, it's a it's a newer design surface because now you can lend against it, move money, whatever it might be. And so I had this tweet above it, which was like, that's 100% correct. When value transfer doesn't have the legacy rail barriers to deal with, everyone that transfers value starts to look like a bank in fintech. And then this goes to the point of like, yes, it starts with stablecoins because people understand dollars. But if once they realize that the dollars is crushing them from an inflation perspective, then it ends with Bitcoin. And so that's why I really continue to like look at this innovative like surface area that stablecoins are bringing because ultimately, I think it's inevitable that it ends with Bitcoin and this is just the order of operations that had to take place or has to take place. Check out earlyriders.com for all the latest in Bitcoin investment research. Now back to the show. Very well said. OK, moving on. Few other headlines here. Big go quarterly earnings. Liam, I'm going to hand this to you. Any major takeaways since they IPO? The stock is down pretty materially. I think it IPO at around maybe 20 bucks a share. It's now at around 7. Not not too surprising given what the market's done since their IPO. But any any takeaways from from their latest earnings report? Not, I mean just one that's worth calling out is the compression of trade fees. You know, I think that they went from around 47 bits to 21. I think that as more and more folks come into the space is the ETFs just get thrown around as kind of high velocity. That's going to be something that's going to come down across the industry, especially for more institutional type players too. Outside of that, you know, they continue to grow their asset base. It's, you know, interesting. They obviously got the OCC charter and should be a massive boon for them just, you know, being one of the few institutional type players who has a banking charter. But yeah, I mean, they're, they're a little bit more resilient than some of the other players in the space who have gone public recently just because of the nature of being B to B to C having, you know, SAS like type revenues. But I think that just the nature of the market until there's something cleaned up with the the clarity and parity acts, I think that you know, publicly traded companies in the space are are going to be hit because of it. Yeah, I will see. The, the interesting thing to see play out is I think Belshi recently I saw a clip or something where he was like calling the IPO where we're at is like the V1, you know, first inning. And I do think that's fascinating to think about when we're still so early. And if you have this amount of assets, where do you monetize and how do you execute on them? It's going to be interesting to see that play out. You mentioned the banking charter, which obviously gives a lot of legal momentum and and regulatory momentum, but there's like an interesting dynamic on orchestration of stable coins as an example, where there's no shortage of people coming into the space and Betco's doing that. But I've, I was having, I forget who was having this conversation with, but it's like Stripe and bridge or stepping in a big way with tempo. And they understand that, right? Like they're not so old or old enough to be dangerous, but they're not too old to not want to touch this or be late, right? They did the bridge acquisition, they did the Privy acquisition. So you have them playing from the orchestration level and then you obviously have Circle and and Coinbase. So I don't necessarily know if Bico, where does Bico shine there? And they can, but there's other players doing it. So it's going to be interesting to just see where that monetization that growth comes from. But they have no shortage of different like diversified client base and then just treated like crypto assets in general that I, I just think it's going to be interesting to see where this plays out for the next 10 years. You can see the stock trade and be relatively flat and more of an infrastructure play or they can figure out how is it, where is the future of this stuff monetized? And then where are they going to offer direct B to C products? And then where, where are they going to go B to B to C? Because people stepping in to be that bank, to be that custodian don't want to build that out. And that's where they go to Betco for sure. Definitely agree first inning not you can't. You can't take too much from the stock price being down over the first few months when when Bitcoin price is done what it's done so well. She's playing a long game here. Obviously this one was. I'll be honest, I hadn't seen this next headline, but somewhat related in the sense that Gemini also went public recently within the past several months and stock price not doing too hot and they are being sued. So either of you, any any thoughts on this class African lawsuit against Gemini for basically misrepresenting the quality or trajectory of the business? I think it's what what's effectively being claimed here. Yeah. I think that, you know, there's two interesting points to pull out from this one. I have no idea if who's going to win or if they've said anything that was potentially misleading, but it sounds like they over like at least the lawsuit claims, yeah, they overstated the commitment and viability to growing to the platform post IPO. Financial plans were overstated and there was, you know, a potential risk of restructuring just given how loss making the businesses overall. I think that one thing to call is probably if if this is happening, there's it's definitely going to happen with a bunch of those dots that recently went public. And it's going to be interesting to see what's what ends up happening there, who ends up winning or losing that. But there was also just a shocking number of the losses are expected to continue to through 2029 for this business. The the company's been around for a while and would have imagined that, you know, prior to to going public, they would have done some, you know, getting fit. But just was kind of shocking that you know, if if you're just almost like a trading platform that we touched on earlier that that's not necessarily where the value is going to accrue long term. Yeah, I, I historically would not have much on equity research, but this brought up a, this made me think about a, a number of things. One of them is Gemini. It's always been understood they lack direction. Like if you go back to the genesis of that built that business, at least from my understanding is the Winklevi twins set it up because they were initially trying to launch an ETF. They needed a custody solution that got pushed. Gemini turned into a business and it's historically always been all over the place. It really had a lacking of leadership from a founding perspective and what it what it was ultimately. That's what happens when you don't fundamentally understand Bitcoin and ends up crypto and digital assets and and the rest. And so the question would be like, well, if that was the case and their books were always, you know, a little fragile, why would you go public? And this is kind of what we see in the status of the market, that it's not a fundamentals play, it's a momentum play. So the market was hot, everyone was going in and it and it's eerily similar to what Liam called out as the Dats because the Dats were all momentum and fundamentals or lacking fundamentals. And I expect to see more of this in the sense of eyeshock, like I saw without calling them out a dat. I don't know what had come up. It was something about their earnings being like completely, just completely missing the mark. And so I just put it in perplexity, I think because I think it has a little bit better analysis when it comes to like some of the research on the finance side. And it just chopped up everything that happened in the past quarter. And it was insane because they had all these promises on cards that were going to be delivered and usage and just everything the banking partners. And it was just like within seconds, like, no, they shit the bet on what they promised. And the point in sharing that is I think like, because those these tools are so close, there's going to be more people that are scrutinizing them when historically they'd have to go through these filings. You're going to have more lawsuits. And if anybody's just curious on any of their favorite dad, if you go look at it like a lot of these dads don't even hold a large percentage of what they went public with because when he went through this, it wasn't a filing. It was just breaking it down. It was like the lending mechanism to give them the Bitcoin was not really their Bitcoin. Then they had to puke it out because the debt couldn't get service. And it was just like this real hairy situation that nobody knows about. And if they knew everyone like that was involved would just be chastised by the industry. And so I just expect like this is part of that because they didn't necessarily have the direction it talks about in this dock or another one, how they had promised or generally when you see a growth company, you're going into emerging or external international markets and they're withdrawing from those markets like Europe and I think London or UK. And so, yeah, I think we're just going to see more of this. There was no real fundamentals. They obviously have this like crazy business where there's like 3 to 500 employees and they're not generally generating any kind of profit. And then the last thing I will say is I'll make a call. Gemini probably gets acquired by the end of the year because that's the thing. I was talking to a client of Geminis or has some Iris, some assets, I don't know what it was. And I was like, they're going to be OK. This isn't like a bucket shop in the sense that they're regulated by NYDFS, they're backed by founders that have billions of dollars. I believe in Bitcoin, and they do have a valuable asset in the sense that banks are interested in this infrastructure. So I don't think there's any worry on their assets. But from a fundamental like equity perspective, if you're buying them because you hope there's the stock's going to appreciate, it's the same thing in my mind is like buying a dat, like it's just tied to Bitcoin's price. There's no fundamental there. And if the price comes back, then their equity might have some left. But I do think they'll be acquired. I would be put a hard bet that in within the next two years, whatever that is, like 821 months. But but I think it'd be interesting it could see it by the end of this year. If the Bitcoin price doubled tomorrow, would you feel good about how it's being secured right now? Most people have not really pressure tested that. And I get it. I have talked to people who have self custody for over a decade and others who've stayed on exchanges because they could never get comfortable managing their own keys. Both camps have real concerns that is why we built on ramp multi institution custody so no single company can lose it, move it or use it. Lloyd's of London insurance inheritance planning built in and a team that can walk you through the entire setup. Get started in 15 minutes. Book a free consultation at on rampbitcoin.com on ramp secured by three controlled by me. Interesting. We shall see. Kind of in a weird way related to to everything we just talked about in terms of the DAP plays Bitcoin as a as a treasury asset. I thought this was kind of interesting. GameStop came out and reported that there was some rumors I guess a few months ago that they had moved some of their Bitcoin that they bought about a year ago to Coinbase Prime. People thought they were about to sell it. In reality, they're actually just doing a covered call strategy with the Bitcoin, which it's really interesting in the sense that like, you know, if you're trying to build a Bitcoin treasury and sort of do the quasi dat play, but then you're now capping your upside with these covered calls. And I believe the strike prices of the calls that they've written are around like 1:05 to 1:10 K for Bitcoin price. It kind of like defeats the purpose of like having the Bitcoin on the balance sheet in the 1st place because now no one's going to buy it for the long term sort of Bitcoin upside. They're just kind of doing this to, I guess generate some, you know, near term, quote UN quote yields some income on this stack, which is I guess interesting in its own right. But to me it kind of signals like they did it because there was a lot of pressure for them to buy Bitcoin with all the cash they had. And now they're kind of like questioning why they did that. And so they're trying to salvage it by getting some near term income. And then kind of giving up on the longer term upside for the asset. Yeah, I mean, the public markets are a vast man. Like, I don't know, we when you look at all this stuff, it's it's key. I was going to pull it up, but if you guys remember when whatever his name is, Ryan, I think the CEO is Ryan something came out and put put the Bitcoin on the balance here. Did that big $500 million buy and it was like during the Bitcoin conference last year and it was like a very not motivating like claim, right? And I think Parker had a tweet was like, this is not how you want your CEO to operate. They just bought 8 1/2 a billion in Bitcoin. He's like, we'll see if it, we'll see if it works out. It was the most tepid like pieces. And so, yeah, and so like, I mean, we were hard run enough so we don't have to go deep. But like these dats, everything's just grasping at straws that I see at because it's like we're going to put stretch on the balance sheet. We're going to do this. We have more BTC potentially per share, but we're still trading below. We're like everyone's down 80 to 90%. And you know, there there is a real issue that doesn't get discussed enough around how many people are going along with it because they'll get sued to shit like just completely wrecked legally. Because like a good at mental model or just like not mental model, but a good thought exercise is like, how long does the price stay around here where these things trade below where they're at and people just start leaving to AI to whatever, right? It's like, so like what changes the price of Bitcoin goes up, you know, 2436 months. And the only thing I can think of that would keep people just hanging around singing about dats is that you're just going to get sued and you made some money. Maybe you didn't even make the money. But yeah, 'cause this GameStop deal is an exact example of it. To your point, they have like a fundamental thesis and they went completely against it. I don't even know what the strategy is there. It's like either puke it or don't. But now you're becoming like a like a hedge fund. Yeah, very, very strange. And you, you great, great transition. You didn't mean to do this, but people pivoting to AI. That's what Marathon is, is allegedly doing here. And we've seen this. This isn't like brand new in the sense that public Bitcoin miners have sort of been diversifying over the past couple years into AI data center infrastructure. And this is sort of just the latest development in that story, some marathon selling a bunch of Bitcoin to retire some debt and then really push heavier into the AI side. Yeah. I mean, the, the quick thing just to pull up here is this other tweet because I think this is like mining's not my Forte, but it's been largely understood. Yeah, this was great. That these guys are operating at a loss. I think it's a little small, but yeah, these guys are operating a loss. They're leveraging the public markets. You know, I think Fred Field made like $54 million last year. And this actually is really, you see this across the industry where people are subsidized by others, whether it's venture like here are the public markets. And it really hurts long term from the fundamentals like, you know, the, the right business will win. But short term, if you have people like a marathon or others being able to increase the hash rate, effectively making it harder for smaller miners to operate, it's not good. And I think our buddy, our buddy Boomer, what's his name from? Bob Burnett. Bob Burnett. Bob Burnett, he's been talking about this, yeah, for for a long time. And so anyway, the last thing to say is he goes back to just like, what are these firms? What do they really exist as? Why are they accumulating? Why are they leveraging the markets? I think they put on a lot of debt to be able to play the debt trade and have a largest holdings because the public markets were rewarding them for that. And now that that's no longer invoke, they're starting to keep this stuff out, which goes back to the main point of all of this is what goes up must come down if the fundamentals weren't there. And so if somebody deeply understands Bitcoin and wants to hold it, that's a completely different market structure and health of a market that people play in a short term game. Because yes, it feels good right up front, but ultimately it's going to end up in this just like sideways chop to down because people have to puke all this Bitcoin that they're not going to hold before we're able to, you know, go back. Yeah, I think the the GameStop trade is just, you know, what's hot at the moment. And then so becoming a dot was hot and then doing cover calls was hot. And then now they're just kind of pivoting away from that. And same exact thing with Marathon. I'm pretty sure that they, yeah, they, you know, issued a convertible note at 113 thousand Bitcoin in order to buy more and become a little bit more of a dot play then. And now AI is higher than Bitcoin, so they're selling some of their Bitcoin to return entire debt and move more into the AI space. I think it's unfortunately just, you know, what you see with this industry is a lot of, you know, I'm not going to say marathons kind of fly by night, but a lot of just kind of following the crowd and seeing what's hot rather than, you know, focusing on fundamentals too. Yeah, all well said. All right, guys, we've got maybe 10 minutes or so left. Where do you want to go? We've got a few things on the list remaining. We could go to the latest Square Cash App moves. We could go to Tether audit. We could go to SpaceX, we could go to Coinbase gambling app. Where? Where do you want to go? I think we should give service to the square stuff. I hadn't followed as closely. I think my understanding is like they just basically turned it on for everyone now. So it sounds like Square just enabled Bitcoin for payment across all its different terminals. This went Live Today for the first batch of cohorts and they're turning it on in more of a phased approach across all of their merchants over the over the next month or so. And so yeah, it says on the screen all US sellers have been doing this automatically enabled, but sellers will could have been you know, because there was a few steps by default unless they want to turn on actually something that's Bitcoin and keeping it on their side. So it just dramatically sells it. I think it's just a great thing to see in terms of the increased knowledge of Bitcoin and having a get out into the wild a little bit more so than it already is. Unfortunately, the reality is many people just don't use Bitcoin for everyday payments at this stage. And so it's, it's a little bit early, but I like that they're pushing it out there. Yeah. I think the two big unlocks or the innovations happening here, the innovation, then the unlock, the innovation is that you can obfuscate the payment rails because this is something that you'll see more and more of like real category winners is just lightning bitcoins in the background. And you can provide whatever incentive, whatever process to effectively take in the Bitcoin sweep to dollars, bypass interchange, right? They're doing over lightning. And you can even do that in reverse. I don't necessarily know if that's like right off the bat, you probably have to turn it on. But if you can pay in dollars over lightning, auto convert to BTC or lightning without worrying about interchange, I think that that work stream and flow is something that will grow. And that's like real innovation on like technology perspective. The other thing is that you just have a market penetration around the amount of people turning it on with already within the user experience, meaning that there's already things like 10s of millions of people with Cash App and then there's 10s of thousands of people with the terminals. And so that's a big component. And then right now where the de minimis tax situations, you know, out there, this kind of like bypasses it because you're not effectively spending the Bitcoin, it's being transferred. No. I guess you're spending your Bitcoin if you're if you're there, but the the and the merchant doesn't have to work. If something happened to you tomorrow, could your family access your Bitcoin? Not probably not. They would figure it out with certainty. I thought about this a lot. You may feel confident managing your own keys, but are your loved ones? Billions of Bitcoin have been lost already because someone died without a plan. With Onramp, inheritance planning is built in directly into your custody setup. Your Bitcoin stays segregated and in your control, insured through Lloyd's of London and accessible to the people you choose when they need it. Get started in 15 minutes. Book a free consultation at on rampbitcoin.com On ramp secured by three controlled by me. Worry about it. Yeah, that's well said and probably going to be a stronger boon for, you know, getting to minimis tax exemptions on Bitcoin actually passed, although it's not looking like that's the status quo at this point. Do we want to touch on Tether? It sounds. Yeah, let's do it real quick. They they recently have signed up a BIG4 accounting firm to complete their first full audit. It is a KPMG Circle stock, I think was down 19% on the day that this was announced, although there was some clarity Action News announced on that same day. So wanted to turn it over to you for any thoughts on this one. Yeah. I don't have any broad thoughts because my understanding is Tethers worked or talked about getting an audit for a while. I mean, it makes sense that they need to get an audit if they're going to operate USAT in the United States and they're going to want some kind of credibility. I thought it was interesting that when they announced this Coinbase, it's not because of it, but it's just interesting timing. Coinbase took a a nosedive from an equity revaluation or their their stock I think went down 20 to 30%. They're they're also could be the component of the genius act and what does that look like from passing earn and then the growth of stable coins. But yeah, not much there I think. Yeah, I think the outside of the the audit is it's kind of like expected if you're going to be operating there. The the only other thing is I, I think we discount in financial services trust and brand and for better or worse in the traditional markets when it comes to USDC. And then even like Stripe and what they're doing with Tempo specifically with like paradigm that. Those are. The first two calls for firms building in the United States and we obviously know Tether has its emerging market and outside the US dominance, but I don't think an audit just naturally supports their now they have a balance sheet to establish liquidity and growth. But I think people just discount the relationships with, you know, the parties that are involved and the history that it just doesn't make it a foregone conclusion that capital markets will want to be moving around USAT when there's other options. Yeah, completely agreed. It'll be interesting to see. Obviously they've mostly seen a lot of demand from exchanges at this point, so we'll be interesting to see if you know some of the large players support USAT but imagine that they would go more towards circle, at least for AB1. Yeah. Do you want to pull up your? I didn't see it but I'm curious your thoughts. The most successful teams spending on AI? Yeah. So we can touch on this briefly, essentially. I can pull it up to you. Yeah. So this Ramp CEO or maybe CTO put out an article about just getting on the right side of the ice. And essentially, it's really about just how to. Leverage the latest tools that are coming out and the compounding gap that we've seen between those who are really focused on the space and, you know, doing as much as you can, doing more with less and actually adopting AI into their workflows. And the real gap was just the top 25 spenders of AI are growing their revenue over 100% since 2022 were the bottom, you know, 25% of AI spenders by company have kept pace with the US economy as a whole or slightly outperformed it and growing less than 20% of the revenue there. I just thought it was really telling. It's not necessarily, you know, a correlation that the best folks, if you spend more on AI that your revenues automatically get a grow. But I do think it's a testament to how those who are really forward link forward thinking or just operating at a different level than the traditional incumbents and how that's kind of translating into how they think about their entire company. And and the different, you know, increasing divergent between those who are, you know, outperforming and those who aren't as AI compounds things. Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. I mean, it's fascinating to see they have the data behind that in the growth. It's an interesting one. Like we should look at and trying to discern the the signal here because you can manipulate numbers obviously. But really looking at like the growth, the specific like anecdotes from the companies, because I don't even doubt this. I think like us being able to put, you know, let's call it five companies that were in this and then show where they're finding the growth and how they're leveraging these tools will be fascinating. I think this ties into the other tweet that was from I think he was the CEO of Stripe. And then there was a guy Carpathy or however he pronounced his name, that was, I don't know if he's a Co founder at Open AI, but it was basically the point of engineering. Like the biggest problems with engineering are generally around like DevOps, getting services, payments, databases, security, domain names. It's not actually the coding. And so when you think about agents in just this new world, you can just see how so it's not even squints anymore how you're going to need to track transfer value online. And while we've been talking to me personally about stable coins and yes, that's going to be the V1, I think that on a short enough time frame, not even long enough, you're really going to see emergence around some level of Bitcoin. Now, I don't know what it looks like. If it's lightning, you're just thinking out loud. It could even be something like Spark where you have this own like side chain that's for AI. And because a lot of these firms you're still going to have, for better or worse, embedded governance in KYC. Because you can imagine like if you need to set up a bank account for whatever reason and you have a Bitcoin, a native firm like Arab or like you still have compliance and reasons why you need to know who like that agent's tied to on the behalf If you if recourse or whatever happens. And it's a little harder, but it's just a Satoshi that's not necessarily tagged to any money. Well, the point being is that this is somebody that's deep in the domain expertise of engineering explaining that engineering has historically not been the hard part. It's the dev OPS around tying and stitching the whole thing together. And you need native value to do that, to incentivize that coordination. And I thought that's just super fascinating because we're just going to see that side of the market emerge, while Bitcoin's value or value, profit and store value will also continue. Super interesting sorry, I cut out earlier gentlemen, I'm I'm I'm confident you guys did did justice to the to square block deal, but that was that was big news. Did you see this, the second Miles tweet around actual buyers being able to toggle on Bitcoin payments as well? If someone had asked, someone had sort of replied to what was announced this morning being like, is there a reason you guys decided to make the Bitcoin payment selection on the payer side or to not do that? It would be way better you'd ask if the payer didn't have to ask the merchant to pay in Bitcoin. And Miles responded to that basically saying coming soon. So basically now both sides are going to be able to toggle on Bitcoin payments if they'd like. Yeah, that's what we kind of talked about the innovations really like the lightning working in the background to obvious gate either direction. So yeah, it's pretty, it's pretty bullish if you want to, if you're a Bitcoiner trying to accept payments or if you just understand that all of the economics on interchange get better. Because theoretically you could take the dollars and convert it to Bitcoin, then convert it back to dollars. So use those rails. I know we're coming up on time. Do you want to just do the Coinbase and the IPOI don't even know if there's a direct link. I think there was just a main theme of we're going to be in this like counterculture world of the people that are building. It's part of like discussing a lot of the fundamentals or lack of fundamentals with these companies is when we look at it from an investment perspective, what are the things delivering value to the world? Where is the unit economics that are going to persist because you can in short run, maybe make something that's shiny get, you know, investment. There was a recent one like I think it's FXF or XFFX. It was like a cross-border payments for like easy stable coins for FX, which they could build a a great business. It's just like, well, what's the Moat there? And like, what's the differentiation? And point being is that you see all these different firms and it's very heavy, heavily leaned into velocity and gambling. And so you seen Coinbase, you see all over Twitter were there across the board putting up, you know, gambling as it relates and I guess is with Kelsey, I think their relationship is for March Madness, but it's across the board, whether it's like, you know, banks not giving you interest, charging you insane amounts around on your interest or credit cards. The Robin Hood example, the IP OS that are getting pushed like the SpaceX versus what are the firms that are just helping you from a financial literacy, saving, preserving, growing your wealth. It's pretty bullish for what we're building. Because I think like when we talk to clients, they it really resonates with them. They appreciate it. They even appreciate that we talk about the Dats because I think that they suddenly know maybe that this isn't a long term thing. And so I think this is just a microcosm for what's what's happening. But I think the long term firms that persist are going to realize they have to take care of their client and not put them into these things. So it's just playing long term games and the reality is fast money, you know, creates kind of more of a higher time preference society. Yeah, 100%. The only thing that I would add to that is like, it's also a function and a reflection of broken money of the Fiat monetary system that we are in this place where people are so short term, short term oriented and financially nihilistic that they do feel the need or the expectation to go gamble to, to get ahead or, or get out from, you know, under a bunch of credit card debt or whatever it may be student loan debt. That is always that is all downstream of the money being broken to some extent. And so in that sense, it's not entirely surprising that that's where we are in terms of whether it's Coinbase or DraftKings or Robin Hood all sort of becoming the same thing, which is super short term thinking, gamble your way out of this, make it big. This is basically how you, this is your only way to escape the permanent underclass type thinking. That is unfortunate. That's where we are. And so yes, to your point, like we try to focus on being the opposite at on ramp. And, and particularly when we talk about Bitcoin and the investment thesis around it, it's savings technology, It's, it's, you know, on the other side of speculation, it's how you actually plan long term until you think long term. And so we need more of that in the market, Needless to say. 100% and especially anybody who is consumer facing should be thinking about their consumer more than anything else long term. And we've talked a lot about the needs for especially like dev OPS and B to B to CAI development tools that are coming out now and marketplaces around that. We've seen a ton of nice adoptions or applications and and emails from founders to the stables kind of focusing on those sorts of things. So yeah, I just want to shamelessly plug the early riders is running an accelerator for, you know, for giving seed investments to folks who are, you know, really focused on, you know, everything that we're kind of mentioning today of helping out the consumer long term rather than pushing them into financial nihilism and making it easier for the agentic economy and businesses to create value long term. So if you if that's you and you're interested, please apply to earlyriders.com/staples. Good stuff. All right. Thank you, gentlemen. See you guys next week. Good stuff, guys. Thanks guys. Thanks for listening to this week's episode of the show. If you found the information valuable, please share the episode with a friend or leave a rating on your favorite podcast app. All the links we discussed in today's show will be in the show notes inside your podcast app. Before we finish, a quick reminder that Onramp Media is for informational and entertainment purposes only, and nothing should be construed as investment or legal advice. Regardless of where you are on your Bitcoin journey, we'd love to hear from you. Visit onrampbitcoin.com/contact to schedule a consultation with one of our private Client Advisors.
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