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Thank you for joining us this week. We're excited to bring you a webinar from On Ramp Media on the topic of the alignment between Bitcoin and military veterans. This webinar, hosted by Cam Stromie On Ramp's Head of Private wealth, features current and former US service members W Lipman, Lee Bratcher, and David Thayer. The conversation explores the natural alignment between Bitcoin and military veterans, highlighting the similarities in worldview, idealism, and the desire to change the world for the better. The guests discuss the parallels between the decentralized nature of the military and Bitcoin, emphasizing the importance of self-sufficiency, resilience, and preparedness. They also touch on the role of veterans in translating their skills and experience to the workforce and explaining Bitcoin to larger society. Bitcoin and the military share common values of accountability, self-reliance, and independence. Bitcoin promotes construction over destruction and constrains government's ability to wage war. It also enhances the country's hard and soft power through economic growth and fiscal discipline, veterans can find a renewed sense of mission and optimism within Bitcoin. Now time for the show. Hello, welcome to a special Independence Day edition of On Ramp Media. I'm Cam Stromie, Head of Private Wealth here at On Ramp. And today I'm joined by three friends, Wes Lipman, Lee Bratcher and David Thayer, and we're going to be discussing the topic of Bitcoin and veterans one which I'm very excited to be had this opportunity to share because I've, I think the analogies are apartment and there is a lack of of great content and education. So very excited that we have these three gentlemen joining us today. Some introductions for the three of them and then we will jump into the discussion. W Lippman spent four years as a logistics officer in the Marine Corps, medically retiring in 2008 after an IED injury during a 2006 deployment while commanding a convoy in Anbar, Iraq. Wes is a Senior Product Manager at Verizon focused on their enterprise security portfolio. Prior to joining Verizon, he worked at a management consulting firm at PwC and IBM, as well As for the US government. He holds an MBA from the University of Virginia and ABA from Dartmouth College. So Wes Wes, Wes has authored an article entitled Bitcoin and Veterans a natural alignment, which was the inspiration for our discussion today. And we'll be publishing this article at our website at on rampbitcoin.com under the research and inside section. So highly encourage anybody who's listening to this go take a a read of that on your own time as well. Lee Brancher is the president and founder of the Texas Blockchain Council. The Texas Blockchain Council is an industry association with more than 100 member companies and hundreds of individuals that seek to make Texas the jurisdiction of choice for Bitcoin and blockchain innovation. I've been to this conference many times. Lee holds an outstanding gathering every year. Highly recommend you consider attending this year's summit which will be held in Dallas November 20th, 20th and 21st. Lee is a Captain in the US Army Reserves working as a tech scout for the 75th Innovation Command that supports Army Futures Command. Formerly, Lee was a political science professor at Dallas Baptist University, teaching international relations with a research emphasis on property rights. Lee was awarded a Master's in International Relations from Saint Mary's University and is in his sixth year as a PhD candidate at UT Dallas with a research emphasis on blockchain land registries. David Thayer is an Executive advisor to The Blackstone Group, having served until 2022 as a partner. Prior to this, in 2005, David had Co founded Harvest, a family of funds investing in energy infrastructure, which was purchased by Blackstone in 2017. For 20 years David had also served as a tanker, scout and infantryman in the US Army Reserves, most recently commanding a well known armored cavalry unit base in Philadelphia. A former Board Chairman of the Moving Picture Institute, he currently serves on the advisory boards of Students for Liberty, the Atlas Network, and the Global Liberty Institute. David is a graduate of the Wharton School, the London School of Economics, and the University of Chicago. At On Ramp, we believe that Bitcoin will be the most important asset to own in the 21st century. Our Multi Institution custody solution is the safest and most secure way to ensure that your Bitcoin remains in your in your family's possession for decades to come. Multi Institution custody maximizes security and minimizes counterparty risk. Leveraging Bitcoin's native properties to eliminate single points of failure that have historically complicated Bitcoin ownership on ramp provides Peace of Mind for your Bitcoin journey. For more information, check us out at on rampbitcoin.com. So, gentlemen, thank you so much again for joining me today in this Independence Day week. And Wes, I'd like to start by reading the opening paragraph from your art from your article. Although it's not something you hear every day in the world of Bitcoin, there is a natural but perhaps underappreciated alignment between military veterans and Bitcoin. Initially, they this made pure counterintuitive given the role of the military, specifically the US military plays in supporting the current Fiat and petrodollar system that Bitcoin seeks to disrupt. But that relationship is a strategic 1. Viewed at the individual level, the alignment makes more sense. So Wes would love if you would kick off the conversation for us and help to share the genesis of this article, why you wrote it. Absolutely. First of all, thanks for having me. I'm really honored to be on this, this panel today. And then the genesis is really I was, I think it was the 2021 Bitcoin conference maybe I think maybe that's where we initially met. I was there with my brother and I saw some people posting afterwards. Hey, good to see other Marines at the, you know, that are into Bitcoin or something like that. And it just really got me thinking it, it sparked something where it was like, there's definitely a natural overlap between at least large parts of these two communities. And there seems like a lot of just, you know, similarities in worldview in sort of optimism to a certain degree. And I, I started thinking maybe they could do a panel discussion down here at the next conference, or maybe I should just put these thoughts down on paper and try to articulate them. And so that's what I end up doing. It's not a long article, but I just wanted to kind of articulate some of the thoughts as to why I think was to overlap and you know, working from kind of the higher macro type level down into the, we'll call it the tactical details. I think one of the things that is under appreciated, and again, I speak mostly for the US military just 'cause I don't really know the other militaries all that well. But is this kind of sense of idealism and hope that that the people who enlist in the military and that the people who find Bitcoin for the right reasons and become heavily involved in Bitcoin share in common. And it it is that idealism and hope. And it's really just as simple as I think both groups, whether they fully understand what's coming in the future or not, or they fully understand all the implications, made the choice to delve into those communities because they wanted to, you know, change the world in in a positive way, whether that be trying to, you know, defend your country and defend the the principles upon which it's founded. And we'll get into whether or not that's actually true, but or just, you know, fix the money, fix the world and try to get the world towards a, you know, as closer and closer as we can to a Bitcoin standard or something there like that. So that was really the impetus behind it is just seeing at least, you know, at the initial level of of diving into these two communities, how much their overlap there was in terms of idealism and kind of trying to change things for the better. Really well said David and Lee, Had you started over the years, as you have become more interested in Bitcoin and learning more about it, you start to make some of these similar connections. Well, plunge in first the answer is no. But then once I read West's article, it all kind of snapped into place and I would completely agree with the points that he was making. I mean, there's several points as anyone who watches this and I hope ultimately reads the article will will learn. And by the way, I should have mentioned anything I say is not a reflection of Blackstone's policies, but of course my own opinions. But in any event, yeah, I mean, I guess maybe, you know, Wes, you can expand upon some of the points I made in the article. But I have noticed that within the service, it's been my experience that to my surprise, there is sort of a pro freedom, we'll call it libertarian. You would expect a conservative, but it's more kind of pro freedom, a little bit sort of anti establishment streak that I would have expected. And I mentioned earlier that when I was still in uniform in the 2000s, there was a huge degree of support not only anecdotally within my peer group, but even statistically for Ron Paul over and above the other candidates. I think this isn't a 2008 election. I think that's reflective of the sentiments that that W brings down this article. And I think a lot of people on the outside looking in may not expect that. I didn't in the military, but it did kind of shine through. And one of the things that I would posit is that, especially if you're in a common arms unit, a lot of these guys have seen action and have realized in real time on deployment how I'll conceived a lot of these missions frankly are. And and that may be kind of letting the cat out of the bag, but I think we've seen retrospectively how dumb Vietnam was, how dumb, frankly, some of the other missions have been over the years. And you know, at great cost to the guys who are actually serving. I mean, Wes is here having experienced some of that first hand, tragically. So credit to West for having bounced back from that. But you know, I mentioned earlier as well, and I'll just kind of end with this anecdote that when I was deploying myself in the Balkans, a lot of guys, my platoon, I was a platoon leader at the time, would ask me, hey, Sir, why are we here? And, you know, we're giving talking points the kind of issue, but but by that time, it was completely quiet in that area of the world. And we were just there on the sort of like make work peacekeeping mission and and, you know, amongst the the leadership, we often were wondering ourselves why we were there. So I think, you know, just to kind of wrap this up, the themes that I think W brings out, I'm reminded by the way of the famous piece that a guy named Smedley Butler wrote. He was a Marine Corps general emerging for World War One was war is a racket. And and it sounds a little radical to say that, but I mean, a lot of guys who are in uniform ultimately kind of reluctantly come to that conclusion. And there are noble efforts, but some are really kind of misguided. So there is that pro freedom instinct and that is very much aligned with Bitcoin. And Wes will get into some of the other points he makes. But but you know, until you said it, Wes, I hadn't kind of fully kind of made those mental connections. So I'm grateful that he wrote the piece. Yeah, I'll jump in there too. And like David, I have to give a little bit of a disclaimer. I am still an Army Reserve officer. So obviously these, this conversation is fully in my civilian capacity and nothing I, I say today is to be construed as if I'm speaking as an Army officer. So I think I, I had started to see some of the threads that Wes so eloquently pulled out in his article, mostly, I think from two different areas. One was just from what David alluded to, which was sort of the, so the ethos in the world view that seemed to align between the military community and and the Bitcoin community. I think the other piece that may be a little bit less obvious was kind of this concept of, of economics. And I think people in the military have a, they probably learn more Austrian in their thinking and they maybe that they don't know that they probably never heard of Austrian, Austrian economics. But just their experience on the ground leads them to be more interested in sort of that those components of economics that are, are derived from, you know, theoretical understandings and experiences of the world. And rather than sort of the Keynesian view that really you're you're conflating a lot of information when you're piling a bunch of data into models and you're losing a lot of the explanatory value of some of those some of that data. And so that's more often, I think what we would say, like the armchair economists or those that haven't been in business or really don't understand how business works. I think people in the military tend to to count experience and like observation more highly than perhaps an over reliance on on, you know, big data sets. There's often times disguising like what is actually happening on the ground. And so that's another thread that I have long thought is connects. You know, again, like I said, Austrian economics is not a very widely known school of thought, as you know, among anybody, including among veterans. But I think the principles that that flow through that strain of thought and also the Bitcoin community are quite aligned. Well said. Yeah, that's very well said. I didn't think of the economic angle. It's like the old saying, there are no atheists in a foxhole. There are only Austrian economics followers in a foxhole, right? Because it's the ultimate and I'm far from an expert, but it's generally the idea of actions and consequences, right? Open market actions have consequences and you're not, you know, in combat, you're not going to respawn. You can't just start over and add liquidity to yourself and you know, have a second, a second try at it. It, it is what it is. And you have a one time shot. So, you know, even something as simple as like with Bitcoin in general, I think that's true. But something is more tactical or, or personal as if you send the wrong transaction, like they're not getting it back. You can't, you know, there's no second chance. I do like that, that parallel. No alibis, right? Yes. So. Yeah. And, you know, your decentralization theme also reminded me of a story that Stephen Ambrose described in one of his books about the war in Europe in World War Two. And, and he had mentioned that I'll try and keep it, sure. But nonetheless, there was a German prisoner of war who would take behind American lines. And he marveled at the extent to which Americans would get involved in like solving problems. So unlike the German army, what's much more hierarchical, like if they were trying to fix a Jeep, like an NCO or even an officer would get in and try and help with the fixing of the Jeep because, you know, they didn't have time or the, OR the resources to call in the mechanics to, to, to fix the Jeep just need to be fixed. And, and then furthermore, I'm sure everybody in this call is aware that. And one of the reasons the D-Day landings, which we just commemorated a few weeks ago, we're so successful is that, you know, Hitler was asleep and everyone's afraid to wake him up. And the, the, the German command was not willing to show an order until they got approval from Hitler. And so they there, they were paralyzed as we're like invading the beaches of Normandy and the American army is much more decentralized and therefore more successful. And that is a very Austrian themes, this localized knowledge. Hayek wrote about it. And and it is the key. It's the absolute key to success, I would argue in any endeavor, military or otherwise. But yeah, it very much aligns with what you were describing was. And someone who's never served in the military, this concept or this understanding of the military has been the most eye opening for me. The the the extent to which the US military is decentralized and relies on that for its success. The first time that I learned about that, it was previously with Unchained Capital. Parker Lewis LED LED a book club and we read Extreme Ownership as one of the novels by Jocko Willing. So he's talking about especially in these high performing teams, that decentralization is crucial for all the reasons that I'm sure are intuitive to you all in that you could elucidate on. But I, you know, not probably naively or stupidly had this idea that if you were attracted to the military, it's because you like the hierarchical structure or, or that made sense to you or that was a fit for your personality. But then realizing that there are all these folks like Jocko in there who are this of rebellious nature of independent free thinking, very spirited. Well, that then, then when I, when I thought D, but that makes sense. But then drawing those parallels to Bitcoin about decentralizing control and, and decision making and how that actually of course creates a much stronger body of a, of a unit of, of an entity as well. And then the parallels there to Bitcoin are are very apparent of a a stronger decentralized monetary system versus a more fragile and and in its own way volatile centralized Fiat system. Yeah, for sure. It's it's a, in my experience, even doing it, I think I went in with the wrong idea. And I'd say the parallels, I'll speak for the Marine Corps because that was my experience. And they have a very obviously strong history, strong brand, strong ethos. They take a lot of pride in it. And that would be almost, you know, all the stuff you go through in boot camp or officer candidate school and everything you learn about the foundational aspects and the history of it. You know, that's somewhat akin to like the Bitcoin protocol. It is what it is. It's it's written in stone kind of thing. And then after that, everything's decentralized. So you have something to which you can decentralized against that everybody kind of recognizes as the rule set, as you know, to some degree. And then after that, that makes it actually ironically easier to decentralize because not everything needs to be explained. And you can, you know, you can start layer 2IN on top of that because you know that the foundation is, is what it is. And it's, it's kind of written in stone. So, you know, to me it was, there's the obvious aspect of decentralization, which is like, you're not going to concentrate all your troops in one place because an artillery round is going to take out the entire unit. That's the same idea. You're not going to, you know, do Etherium for the same for the same reasons. Metaphorically speaking, but. You know, that's kind of the obvious one. Having nodes running all over the world is great. But it was also just this idea of from a market standpoint, it's a lot better to be decentralized in the sense of it allows information to flow more freely and to make have everybody make better decisions. So imagine, you know, to David's point, with Hitler being asleep and everyone had to come to him. Like if you had, you know, take. Jocko, for example, and Ramadi as a battlefield commander and he probably makes this point directly. There is no way he could sit there and have every major decision come through him. It's an inefficient at least a bad results deaths, you know, in the market at least to to market inefficiencies. And so there's really almost no other proper way than to have things be decentralized. And then I guess there's a discussion about. You know to what extent and and that can be done on a spectrum, but I think the principle of decentralization is as it relates to obviously the military, but also to Bitcoin is so key because it allows. For the best information and the best decision making. That's right. Actually, Wes, your your description there, I think is is important because it's not, you know, obviously everyone in the military would know. It's not like decentralized all the time. There is like command and control and there are the hierarchies that Cam you would envision. There's no question about that. But it's almost like the frame on the picture. So if you have a protocol, which is sort of Bitcoin terminology or standing operating procedure and and military terminology, that's the frame. And then the picture can be painted by ideally in the military, sort of the Ncos is during a battle, they're sort of, you know, directing fire and so forth. Or, you know, perhaps even more decentralized than that if you're in foxholes. You were mentioning earlier West, but you know, Lee, you're still in the military now. I'm sure that's been your experience. It also got to depends on which branch of the military. If you're in combat arms, there's probably a little more leeway to or special OPS even more so to kind of do things your own way. But nonetheless, you know, you kind of need both. So it's not to to to overplay the decentralization hand, but I think it actually makes it even more analogous to Bitcoin because as you just mentioned, Wes, there are there is a frame within Bitcoin that is, you know, in a sense, not really centralized, but we do have an existing protocol or SOP, but within that, and this gets to your layer two point, you know, we can kind of play around and and make our own artwork, as it were. So you kind of need both. And that makes it even more analogous, I think, to the military. Lee, is that been your experience too? I mean, you're, you're, you're still doing it. So yeah, I, I think you brought the NCO core, which I've learned a lot from great Ncos. I'm sure you guys have over the years. And, and there I think a more flexible decentralized example then perhaps, you know, when you get up into the higher echelons of, of I'll, I'll just say bureaucracy, if you will, in the military. So I do think that the principle of decentralization is more apparent at those levels because it has to be more flexible there. And then just like any large organization, you know, efficiency as you go towards the top is a little bit is sacrificed in, you know, in return for other things. I think there are things that that Bitcoin sacrifices in order to maintain its decentralization and security. And so you're you're sacrificing a little bit of scalability and I think that's OK when you're talking about an asset that wants to be in money and wants to be one of the largest commodities in the world, you know, security and decentralization are paramount. So I think that was a good trade off. And then, you know, just like when you move lower down, when you move into layer twos or lightning or liquid or whatever on Bitcoin, you have a little bit more scalability, the more flexibility, but it doesn't really exist. That scalability and flexibility doesn't really exist at on the layer one on Bitcoin itself. And so I don't know, you know, I just as we were talking, I came up with that analogy or I, I think I really pulled it out actually from what you guys were saying, y'all were the ones that built it. And so I, I resonated with that analogy that that you all shared, I think. Speaking on this concept of some of these tactical overlaps, as you called them West, you know self-sufficiency and resilience. So the I'll pull out a piece from your article. Expect to self rescue. There are no bailouts and second chances in combat, just as there are none in bit climb. Resilience and self-sufficiency are paramount. Why would why would we want to create a monetary system that has no bailouts and where, you know, self-sufficiency and resilience are paramount? That sounds like a difficult system a little bit. Why can't we create one where there's, you know, infinite bailouts and there's, you know, we can go running to, you know, to someone to fix our problems if things go awry? Right, well, I think first and foremost because it reflects reality better, right? I mean, it's just the nature of the world. There's no sure there are bailouts and you can do them in all aspects of life, very much so in the financial world. But at some point they run dry, right. And I think, you know, who knows? It's not a a macro discussion necessarily, but at some point it looks like not to pick on the US, but even the world governments like it's getting that's the the running dry part is coming pretty soon. And I think like on the self-sufficiency part, to me, this was the part where and it's hard to speak, I've said this before, but it's hard to speak on behalf of the Bitcoin community. It's huge and varied. And it's hard to speak on behalf of the military because it's also huge and varied. But there are some kind of generalities you can, you can state. And I think the the self-sufficiency and resiliency part, I think the, excuse me, veterans understand reality as it is and they don't want to have things sugar coated. And if there's a bad situation, they want to be able to look at it, address it, and do what they can to to ameliorate it and fix it for themselves and their unit. And so I think Bitcoin is a is a great example, right? Expect to self rescue if you're a military, if you're in the military now and you've been in say 18 years and you're doing two more, if that's even still how it works to get your pension. And you're planning on, you know, the United States government taking care of you via pension. Yeah, you'll get it, but it's going to be probably in diluted dollars over the years. And so this idea of expect to self rescue, like you need to take action yourself to ensure your future and your family's future and not be reliant on, you know, the government or anybody else to. To to bail you out basically and that. Is particularly true with someone who's on a fixed income like a, you know, retired military veteran. But obviously that goes for everybody else as well. You know, you should. I think the other one it's it was no one's coming to save us. It's up to us, right? That's both those both those lines are from the same company. They actually put them on T-shirts. It's called 30 seconds out by some former special operators. But I think both of those are just really apartment like we need to build our own future. No one's coming to save us. You know, to the extent we're saved, it's going to be by what we can do. And obviously using Bitcoin heavily as like the primary tool in that, I think makes a ton of sense. Exactly. It's like I was reminded when reading that that, you know, a riff on one of the point To me, I guess it is self-sufficiency and resilience is, you know, preparedness. So, like, if you're preparing for a mission, you already have laid out your supplementary fighting position, your alternate fighting position, you have like extra junk in your rock to to dole out to the other guys, maybe some extra ammo, whatever might happen to be to ensure that you're fully prepared for the mission in hand. And, and, you know, bitcoins, the exact same thing, like you get into the habit of thinking ahead and wargaming what might go amiss during the course of the mission. And it becomes, I think, a habit of mind. And, and so yes, I absolutely believe that, you know, there's very much, very much aligned with the folks I've met in the Bitcoin community who were thinking three steps ahead instead of about, hey, you know, what kind of what I just got my paycheck. Let's blow it on, you know, having a good time this weekend. And instead, they're they're squirrelling it away and making some sacrifices now so that they can build a future for them and their families. And that that is so aligned with what I've seen in the military. There's another concept that comes to mind as we talk about this, which is the transitioning veteran that transitions back into the workforce who has a tremendous level of skill and that they've gained through experience and perhaps has challenges translating that skill into what it should look like in the, in the workforce. And so the, the military veteran often is becomes sort of a liaison translator, translate their, translate their leadership skills into whatever that job is in business, finance or or what have you. And then veterans that are in the Bitcoin community have a similar challenge, probably a challenge that they're used to, which is explaining Bitcoin to a larger, you know, society that is, is not really understanding what it, what it's doing or, or how it works or what some of the value propositions of it are. And so maybe transitioning or, or veterans that have left the service that have, are now in the workforce, have some experience at translating that to the larger, the larger populace. And I, I think that's something that we do a lot of, a lot of times as Bitcoiners is we're all, we're all kind of coming in as the underdog in each conversation as if we, we sort of need to, you know, explain or disrupt the status quo. And, and the, the veteran that's leaving the service and going into the workforce has a similar challenge, you know, explaining, you know, it's, it's sort of incumbent on the veteran to demonstrate that their experience is relatable to the job that they're applying for. And so I think veterans don't shy away from that and therefore they make good Bitcoin evangelist too. I guess that's my my point in saying that that's I had not thought of that at all, Lee, but I'm reminded that when we were still in uniform, you still are. But then, you know, we were all told, like every soldier is a recruiter. Don't turn a lion. Your your your recruiter to kind of, you know, recruit for the unit. And and the same is true here. Like, you know, it's it's really incumbent upon us to as bitcoiners recruit for the community, as it were. It's not just good for Bitcoin. It's not just good for the Bitcoin price is good for society. And and yeah, so I, I, I agree, hadn't thought about, but you're right. We we need to be recruiters for the cause. Yeah. It's funny you say that because I my background, there weren't a ton of people I grew up with or went to school with that went to the military was somewhat there were there were some, but it was somewhat unique just being from kind of. Connecticut outside New York, it was it was actually a very finance heavy place. I grew up and. It was funny, like I'd come home at 2324 with a, you know, pretty rudimentary knowledge of how the military worked and I'd get questions from people who were very successful, made a ton of money. And not to pick on them, but sometimes, you know, friends, dads or whatnot and you're like, you didn't know that, you know, basic stuff that that I probably even knew before that because it was just two totally separate worlds. So I definitely that resonates with me in the sense of like you're a liaison and kind of a spokesman, our spokesperson for each side of that equation. Because I would also, you know, I had some experiences in life that a lot of my Marines didn't and I would try to teach them some stuff from, you know, quote UN quote, the other world. And so being that bridge between the two worlds, I think is, is exactly a very good description of the military side. And clearly in the Bitcoin world, that's what you're doing if you even have a rudimentary understanding but are committed to Bitcoin like. You're doing that all day, every day with anyone, anytime that topic comes up for sure. Whether you've been buying Bitcoin for years or just getting started on your journey, our Multi Institution Custody solution is the safest and easiest way to custody your Bitcoin. With On Ramp and our partners at Bitco and Coincover, you can sleep soundly at night knowing that your Bitcoin is safe from exchange failures, the loss of seed phrases and broken hardware devices. On Ramps Multi Institution Custody Solution eliminates any single point of failure, Distributes counterparty risk, and minimizes required trust, all while providing greater assurances that a client's Bitcoin is secure and auditable on chain. As a client of On Ramp, your assets live in a multi save vault controlled by three distinct entities, none of which have unilateral control. On Ramp provides products and services that honor our clients ownership and control of the underlying asset. To learn more about Multi Institution Custody, check us out at on rampbitcoin.com. How do you all think about the notion of accountability as it relates to veterans and Bitcoin? Wes, this is one of the topics you called out and it is, you know, tangential to the topics we were talking about self-sufficiency and resilience. Well, as you say, Bitcoin is extreme financial ownership. Taking control of your money, your time, your future, your family's well-being, and ultimately your private keys is the ultimate expression of personal financial accountability. So I'd love to hear you guys thoughts on this topic of accountability. Yeah. I mean it kind of goes to what I was mentioning before in terms of the, you know something like there are not really do overs in Bitcoin per SE. Like you sent a bad transaction, it's gone. There's a fixed supply. People make bad decisions, you know, around Bitcoin. Like what happened in was that 21 with three arrows and all the stuff we all know about, you know, with Bitcoin itself, there was no, there was perfect accountability, all the accountability shortfalls, I'd call it we're kind of tangential or in the orbit of, of Bitcoin itself. Yeah. I think it's also it kind of goes into proof of work as well a little bit. I think there's some some bleed over there in terms of proof of work. Proof of stake proof of stake that tends to be less accountability. Obviously proof of work is, is a very, it is accountable to, you know, the laws of physics and kind of my dynamics and laws of nature and math. And I think one way that I would describe it with veterans, that's that's easy for them to understand is if you take someone like a, you know, a tier one operator or someone who's won the Medal of Honor or something like that, you don't just spin that up, right? You didn't just create a Medal of Honor token and go get it like that. There was proof of work and accountability involved there, right? Like you don't, you don't get to, to seal team six or, or their equivalent in the Army just by showing up, right? There's a huge amount of proof of work that goes into that. And so I think that aspect of, you know, accountability and proof of work and how the two tie together, I think especially with people who have achieved kind of elite status or not, you know, stuff like that in the military, I think would resonate with them really well. Like, I don't just get to come be your peer because I decided that day that that's going to happen. There is a. Ton of. You know energy expended to do that, just as there is with proof of work. Yeah, I mean, I, I, I don't have much to add, but he's absolutely right. I mean, I love what he just said about he can't just spin up a Medal of Honor or anything. It's just, it's, it is the ultimate proof of work. And furthermore, using that analogy, you know, there are witnesses to these acts of heroism. You know, there, there's no question that in this case, not to, to to, you know, kind of beat it at horse when it comes to this metaphor, but there's no question that this this heroic deed occurred. And and that's what's neat about, you know, kind of bringing back the Bitcoin is that, you know, there are no as as he was saying, Wes was saying earlier, there are no do overs in the military. We called an alibi, which I referenced earlier, you know, nothing's phony. No bailouts. You know, hey, you know, city group has an example has been bailed out, you know, like a dozen times since it was found. Like the whole thing's absurd. And of course, it's all a tax per expense. It in fact, it's not even tax per expense doesn't even do it justice because it really comes to the expense of the currency and whether you're a taxpayer or not. And only about half of us are. It comes at everyone's expense, every single citizen's expense. And. And so that's just profoundly unjust. And it's phony and it's fake and it's and it's and it's not genuine. So I really like what he was saying earlier. And it's it's an excellent point to be made. Lee, what do you think? Yeah, I, I think the closer you get to situations that are existential and stressful, the more in tune with reality one gets. And Bitcoin is obviously very concrete and it's an ironic phrase to use for an asset that's digital. But what I mean by that is the finite number, the proof of work, consensus mechanism. There's just so many things that ties it to, you know, a very tip of the spear, real world concrete concept. And you know, when you're in the military, you can't just generate extra of, of some resource to get to accomplish your mission, right? You know, there, there's no, you know, extra pallet of ammunition if you're under fire or there's no extra Med kits if you've got people that need tourniquets, right. So you're, you're, you're working with what you have and you you use your resources accordingly. I think in the in terms of Bitcoin, there's a similar sort of very precise accountable piece where you know there there is no way to manufacture hash rate, there's no way to manufacture more Bitcoin or double spin Bitcoin. It just has that finality and concrete nature to it. In your guys experience and Wes, you said it well that, you know, we're we're talking about two large cohorts here, so it's hard to make generalities, but so maybe speaking to your personal experiences and the the other veterans and service members you've served with, Do you think that a lot of folks join the military because they do already value these topics of accountability, self-reliance, independence, freedom, and or is it, you know, what I'm thinking or what I'm trying to drive at is in Bitcoin. What I see in my community is like a lot of people are drawn to Bitcoin because it represents these ideals and principles that they like of really of truth, of accountability, of of self-reliance. But then it also helps to transform that individual and certainly myself. You're, you're trying to level up and become even more self reliant and even more accountable and taking more ownership over the actions within your control and your family unit and, and your friends and extend those circles out. So we'd love to hear a little talk about like that. What, what kind of aspects do you see drawing of the military that drop folks in? And then how does that potentially, you know, evolve and change them as they're going through the boot camp and into active duty? Let me just quickly turn to one thing, although it's just going to be quick. You know, I think a lot of guys join, in my experience, a lot of guys will join the military for reasons that evolved overtime. So in other words, they joined for one reason and then, you know, the reason for sticking around kind of evolve. And so they might think that in the case in rape court, at least the uniforms kind of fancy and and maybe I'll pick up girls or whatever might happen to be. But yeah, and but I think, you know, obviously there there are nobler motives too. And I noticed that in particular after 911, but you get what I'm kind of driving at here. And I think in Bitcoin too, a lot of people, again, just to my personal experience, are drawn to Bitcoin because, hey, Gee whiz, this might be a way to make some money. And it seems like a decent investment. But then once you're in Bitcoin, you're like, oh man, this is so much more than an investment. This is a community. This helps reinforce sound values. It helps reinforce your perspective on the world. I mean, I could go on. We all know this. But, you know, it's almost like in that sense that it is also metaphor or parallel because I think guys will sometimes join the military for reasons that may then differ as over time as to why they then stick around. Yeah, I'd agree with that. I, I, I almost put it into two camps. Like they're especially in a volunteer. Military, which is obviously what we have there's the people who have to join for any number of reasons, right the kind of cliche one is like go to jail or join the military. But then there's you know the people who joined for some form some flavor of idealism and I think bitcoins kind of similar. There are people who joined for the quick buck because they, you know, for whatever kind of non idealistic reason they might join. And then there are people who join for the ideals. And I do think. What you were saying Cam is, is definitely true. There's a sort of a self selection process going on. Like in my experience, the people who joined for some type of idealistic reason to the military did hold those. Principles like self-reliance and accountability and, you know, doing something beyond just yourself, interest and all those kinds of things. They they did it. You know, there was a self selection process among people who thought that way already and joined. And I think those who joined Bitcoin for, you know, even somewhat of an idealistic reason, I think the same holds true for sure. Couldn't say better than that. So OK with Signum 2. I think what I think is the medias aspect of this, what you really address in the first paragraph or the first section, rather entitled Idealism and Hope. Bitcoin has a better chance at ushering in an era of global freedom and democracy than bombing countries or nation building in Iraq and Afghanistan ever did. Ironically, if it reaches its full potential, Bitcoin drastically reduces the role of militaries worldwide. So I think for the four of us, we can pretty readily understand the, the cause and effect there, although it's probably in 3rd or 4th order separate or degrees of of of of separation. How do you guys think about that? Like how, how does a a new native Internet money translate then into changing the, the nature of combat and kinetic warfare? I. Mean I can, I can give you my take on that. Well, first of all, I think Bitcoin promotes construction versus destruction, right at the national level and at the individual level as well. There's the obvious one that, you know, hard money standard like Bitcoin would constrain government's ability to wage. War just that's the. On its face, that's kind of the most straightforward one. And we were chatting a little before the, you know, we hit record and we're talking about, if I'm not mistaken, I think the Dutch central bank and the English central bank were set up, you know, hundreds of years ago specifically to finance war. It wasn't like a ancillary benefit. It was the main and core purpose of. Why those kind of founding central banks were were set up and I'm sure there's examples in history before that going all the way back, you know, to the ancients, but. And it's pretty obvious to see, I mean. 1914 we go off the gold standard or I'm sorry, 1914 we established the Fed and for the next 100 years, I mean, anybody who's paid attention to any history who's had some of the most bloodiest warfare ever. And I don't think there's AI, don't think it's they're definitely connected the two the ability to print that money. And I think in general also maybe a lesser appreciated one is if. Bitcoin kind of takes hold and thrives in a country. El Salvador might be a great example. Some of these other smaller countries around the world that have less influence. That's true hope for those people, us going there and even if it's well-intentioned, smashing things up, having this sort of paternalistic. Framing of like, we're going to help you get on your feet. It's it's the kind of the ultimate way to have them bootstrap themselves into prosperity. And obviously, I think that prosperity and hope, you get more prosperity and hope. And so, you know, at the individual level, putting the governments of these countries aside, I think people are less inclined to be violent and wage war and probably more inclined to try to build once they know that there's a future that they can actually build on and there's a money that they can establish that future on. So not to be too idealistic there, but I do think, and I think that process probably takes a very long time, but I also think it's started and I also think it's it's almost certainly a better way to do things and. Bombing places. I've also wondered, you know, it's not just our foreign adventures, but it's some of the domestic spending which we engage. If somebody were to go door to door to every household in America and say, hey, we need 5000 bucks to engage or even 500 bucks to go and and invade X country, you know, the the almost universal answer would be no. But So what they do instead is to print the money and surreptitiously dilute the value of the currency, which obviously works to everyone's detriment. So if he had honest money, they wouldn't be able to get away with that stuff anymore. And by the way, while we're like a dinosaur in a tar pit, sort of hung up in all these foreign adventures, I would argue that we're actually undermining our national security because it it we're stretched so thin. And if we would just keep it to the war that counted, which I think are pretty few if you look back on American history, then I think we'd be a much more secure country. We could focus on just defending our borders and making sure our citizens are well taken care of and with all the money we'd save. And by the way, in the process, not pissing off people all around the world with our occupations and our, you know, beating down doors and so forth, and, you know, bombing weddings and few OPS. It's just an unconscionable some of the stuff we've done all in the name of freedom. Then, you know, I think we'd have a much happier populace, not just here in the US, but around the world. And then other countries like in, you know, NATO being one obvious example, will be forced to actually take care of their own defenses. One of the reasons that, you know, not to go off on the standard, but I will anyway, is that, you know, Europeans have such bloated welfare states because they can we are essentially their defense force. And and I think if we if made them to be, if we force them to be more self-sufficient, they wouldn't get away with that. And I think over time, that would be good for those nations too. So anyway, I think that's just drilling down to some of the points that we're just making less. But I think it'd be good for everybody if we could stop printing money to to wage war. Yeah. I I was reading Henry Kissinger's biography by Walter Isaacson over the last couple months. And David, you brought up Vietnam earlier that, I mean, one of the tragedies in our nation's history that, you know, created unparalleled suffering both both here in the country and also there in Southeast Asia to to accomplish little to nothing. And I think, you know, a lot of that was and, and ironically, we came off the gold standard during that conflict, right? So there's, there's definitely some connection I think there that folks can draw. The other thing that I think about is is hard power, soft power, economic power. We'd probably be remiss if we didn't mention Jason Lowry and some of his theorizing on this topic. I think Jason is incredibly smart and agree with a lot of what he says. Probably not all of what he's written, but I think he, he's got some really insightful thoughts on this. So I, I want to certainly acknowledge his thinking, but also take it down from, I think he takes it very far into the future or, or a few steps, perhaps too far. But even at the base level, when you're talking about hard power, of course you're talking about military power and then soft power, you're talking about your, your ability to influence geopolitical events, right? And you need this sort of in a multipolar world where there's multi, multiple countries that, that have power. Of course, in the 90s, that was a unipolar world, like after 91 when the Soviet Union fell, we had, you know, over a decade where the United States was the only undisputed global power. And so we're entering a point where we're, we're more in a multipolar world now than they were were certainly 20 years ago when we were the undisputed power of the world. And, and Bitcoin plays a role, hard money in general, a sort of economic power plays a role both in the hard and soft power component. It, it is the fuel that drives hard and soft power and you really can't have either without economic power. And so that's, I guess a little bit where I differ from from Jason's thinking is as we're, we're influencing both our, our hard and soft power through were the United States or any country really, as Wes mentioned, this is not just a privilege that the US can take on. Any country has the ability to do this to, to create stricter fiscal discipline, to rely more on hard assets and monetary assets like Bitcoin and to, you know, greatly enhanced soft and hard power through a focus on fiscal discipline and, and economic growth. And you really can't do those things while you're fighting a war like Vietnam or other world wars that we've alluded to in this conversation. It it just destroys the foundation of what you're trying to build. Yeah. I would have a great point to say. One other thing I wanted to mention on this kind of general point is we talked about kind of the the victim. And I don't like the word victim, but the people who suffer as a result of kind of U.S. military adventurism and all countries of military adventurism over the past century or so. But, you know, internally, like the actual people doing the fighting, there's a huge cost there as well. And not just financial, Like people get injured, they get hurt, they die, families are broken up. You know, on a more philosophical basis, they become cynical. You have an entire kind of class or generation of people that become very cynical. And they're both real kind of mental and physical and kind of philosophical negative outcomes that come from this. Not just for the people who war is waged against, but the people who are in fact waging the war. And I think it's just an important point to note. It's almost like. It, it goes back to the motives and the ability of us to do this. I think when you have a harder money and less military adventurism, obviously those very real costs go down because there's externalities forced upon the government and like, decisions must be made and a. War, you know, if you're going to go to war, it better be worth it. And I think as a result of, you know, a harder money standard and constraining the ability of, of governments to kind of wage war endlessly. I do think it helps everybody, but specifically also it helps those who kind of signed up to serve and and to try to protect their country. So true. Amen. W is so important. And you know, I, I, I wish that we still in a sense, lived in a day and age when, you know, kings would lead their armies into battle, right. So if those who are ordering us into battle from their air conditioned offices, either in The West Wing or in the Pentagon themselves were released, the Department of Defense were themselves, you know, in the thick of the battle, I think they would feel that pain more acutely. And as mentioned at at length here, the reason they're given the liberty to do this is because they can just print the money to make it happen. And that's just unconscionable. Print the money to make it happen and then not have to engage in the physical consequences of of and then put their own life at risk. That's it's so true that when I was first learning about Bitcoin starting to ruin some of Nicholas celeb and reintroducing for me that idea of skin in the game and how powerful that is. You know, when you grow up, you hear all these aphorisms or truisms that oh OK, that's kind of a neat little dad thing that I was told at some point and my mom told me this, you know, but you don't. It's really powerful to have some of those truths reintroduced and then how how important those are. Another one that now I'm going out my own little tangent here, but kind of time preference. Yeah. You know, that was not really tough that but you yeah, I'd heard of the marshmallow test that that was done. So the skin in the game one though that that really is kind of powerful and just and I think that that's what we all look for in Bitcoin. Who are the folks that if they're selling products or service, do they have skin in the game here? What is their angle or intent? Are they, you know, if things go South, will they be OK and get off Scott free or will are they, you know, taking full accountability for their actions? Going back to what you're saying W at the beginning where military members look for really accomplishments and you know, that kind of that track record and in earning the Medal of Honor and such that that is valued above all else because of that skin in the game. And it was not sideline theorizing. Absolutely. Well, gentlemen, it just kind of put a bow on this. And, and as we exit the end of your article, REST really talks about the future and kind of tying in that idealism and hope that Bitcoin provides the ability for military veterans and service members to have a renewed mission and optimism and idealism for the for the future via Bitcoin as they have had or once had with their military service as well. Would love to hear your all's parting thoughts on kind of reaching out and engaging with the military community, how they can get involved. Any any steps you can you can recommend or again, any other reasons why there's such a natural alignment between these two communities? Yep, I can start if you guys want. So I think one of the things I wrote was like a lot of people say that the government will be better off if there were more veterans serving. And I think that's probably objectively true. But I think also Bitcoin will be better off if more veterans were involved, just the entire Bitcoin community. And that may even be a way to affect more concrete change. I don't know. But I do think it's important to reach out to, to veterans, you know, if there are veterans who are kind of Bitcoin curious, giving them resources and honestly the networking part too, they might want to meet some people in Bitcoin and talk to them. And obviously, you know, I'm open to, to discussing that with anyone, these guys probably. Are as well. And I just think it's important that especially for those transitioning out and kind of looking for the next mission, I think it's really important to support them and offer Bitcoin as a a potential. Mission that they can kind of turn their attention to and do during kind of phase two of their life. So super important. I would be remiss if I didn't mention kind of two organizations that I've been loosely affiliated with. So one is Bitcoin veterans and I think the websites Bitcoin veterans.org, they have a podcast as well that has some excellent posts on and they've really kind of grown in size from at the grassroots level. And I think they're going to be in in Nashville at the conference as well with their own kind of setup. So look for them, go to the website. It's a, it's a pretty dynamic organization. And then there's another one called the Operation Bitcoin, which is run by a guy named Gabe Lord, who and that's focused more on transitioning military veterans. Out of the. Military and into the Bitcoin world and giving them some resources and some education and things like that. So I think that's Operation Bitcoin dot IO, but both those organizations I think would be cool for people to check out. That's great West and I'm sorry, go ahead, Lee. I was just going to follow on with that and and give a parting thought and and sort of an admonition for veterans who are interested in Bitcoin that you know, are wondering where they can contribute. I'd say look at Bitcoin mining. I think everybody's initial thought is to say, hey, I want to be Cam straw me. I want to work. You know, in financial services and Bitcoin financial services, Bitcoin mining is an incredible way to utilize sort of the the problem solving skills, the leadership skills, management skills there. You know, there's a lot of operational and logistical challenges that that the skill sets that veterans have can be very well employed. And also that industry is hiring right now to a great degree. So I think veterans that are they're listening, that are been in Bitcoin for a long time. Maybe they have their regular job, but then they have Bitcoin side hustles or maybe it's just their passion and they're wanting to make that transition into the Bitcoin ecosystem or, or industry. I think Bitcoin mining is an under undercounted and undersold portion of the industry where there's a lot of opportunity for people with those skill sets. That's great point, Lee. And then in the opposite direction in other in other words, Sir, orange filling soldiers and sailors and Marines, you know, because Bitcoin reinforces, I think a lot of the values and qualities that will make them successful in the service. That's one reason alone to orange fill anybody and might happen to know in uniform. But then beyond that, and I think Wes, you might have mentioned this earlier, it's also just a great, you know, retirement scheme. They can provide supplement supplemental income over time. But then because a lot of these pensions may not be all that meaningful down the road, they ought to be thinking down the down the road about their own futures and, and, and Bitcoin's a great way to get them to where they need to be. So that's the least we can do to honor their service. So thanks for mentioning the, the, the, the, the mining opportunities. And then I think in reverse, we can do what we can to make sure that as many folks in your forum as we know are aware of and engaged with Bitcoin. Well, David Lee, Wes, truly thank you so much for your service to our country. I really appreciate that. And I wanted to extend that to all of our listeners as well that are veterans and service members. Thank you so much and everyone have a blessed and wonderful Independence Day. Enjoy. Thank you very much. Thanks for listening to this week's episode of the show. 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