Scarce Assets E023: Dennis Porter – Bipartisan Bitcoin Breakthroughs

Let's be clear, Bitcoin is an international asset. We are spending like drunken sailors. Bitcoin is the only economic entity. Where the? Supply is unaffected by the demand. If you want to preserve your wealth, you have to convert that currency into an asset that's scarce, desirable, portable, durable, and maintainable. Hello, this is Andy Edstrom and I'm happy to welcome you to the 23rd episode of Scarce Assets, a show that examines scarcity, the most fundamental driver of economics and markets and the scarcest asset of all, which is Bitcoin. I'm happy to be here with my Co host, Jesse Myers and our guest, the indefatigable Dennis Porter. So I think I first met Dennis in person at my first ever Bitcoin conference speaking gig. It was Bitcoin Day in Sacramento, I think in early 2022. At that time I recall Erica Rhodes was trying to unseat the infamous anti Bitcoin member of Congress known as Brad Sherman and she made an appearance of that conference. But Dennis gave the keynote and absolutely stole the show. Now, in the three years or so since then, Dennis has continued to steal the show with respect to advances in Bitcoin policy all over the US. His primary vehicle for this work is the Satoshi Action Fund and where he works with lawmakers and regulators, as well as the general public to ensure that Bitcoin is adopted so all Americans had the opportunity to benefit from it. And I know he's working on some exciting policies as we speak. So I'm delighted to talk with him today in this momentous time for Bitcoin policy in the US. So, Dennis, how are you today? I'm doing great, Andy. So good to see you and looking forward to the conversation. You're right, we there's a lot of history actually, we've we've done a lot of things in the past where we've been in the same places. And I remember also we were just talking before the show that I had you on my show back in the day when I was doing podcasting and when I was just a media guy. But a lot of things have changed since then. And I remember also you were one of the first people to get in there and support Erica Rhodes. You know, she didn't work out, but guys like you getting in there, supporting early on. You know, that that that speaks a lot. Not a lot of people were not willing to take those types of risks and you did. It didn't work out with her. But ultimately, you know, I'm, I know I and A lot of people appreciated you showing that level of support or that early on when it wasn't so popular all the time to be pro, pro Bitcoin and politics. Well, that's very kind. Thank you, Dennis. Yet her campaign is actually the only political campaign I've ever supported, and it didn't work out. But you know, this recent round, things have gone rather well. So maybe I'll kick it back to you to just start with the big picture on government policy here in the US or globally and how it's changed as a result of the recent US election. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we've seen some incredible stuff. You know, when I first started doing this, you know how hard it was. We had to go find people. We had to go find lawmakers. We didn't even find lawmakers. In fact, we had to find candidates. That's why we were working with Erica because nobody would even hardly talk to us about Bitcoin in the political space. So we had to find candidates and we had to try to get candidates elected. And it was hard. It was tough. You know, you had, it was slim pickings among who you could support. It's what's tough to win a race. It's not easy to win politics. It's not easy to win a political campaign and it's it's been a wild ride ever since then. We have seen so many ups and downs. When we eventually launched Satoshi Action in June of 20/22, it was still a tough time, very rough. It was hard to have conversations with anyone. You know, FTX had just collapsed. SPF was about to go to jail. The scammer that we hate more than anybody else. I think the people outside think that they don't like SPF. Nobody hates them more than the people within the Bitcoin space. This guy has really causes a lot of problems. And so ultimately because of that environment that we were in early on in June of 2022 after launching, it was just a, it was a tough time. Lawmakers are thinking, wow, you're doing Bitcoin policy. Is Bitcoin even real anymore? Is this thing even going to survive? Fortunately, we were able to find some lawmakers though that would listen as we educated them about Bitcoin and then eventually they were interested in working on our model policy. You know, a lot of people they ask, what is that? What is model policy? It is a model example of what you could introduce. It's sort of like you write an idea down on paper and it kind of looks like a bill, but it's not a bill. And you show it to the lawmakers and you say, well, now that you love Bitcoin as much as we do, now that you're interested in the technology and you want to see it come to your state, here is a model and idea of a bill that you could introduce. Fortunately, in June of 2022, even though it was all a mess for that first year, when we went into 2023, we were able to get seven bill introduction. So we had seven of our right to mind bills introduced across the country. And ultimately we were able to pass two of those bills into law. Now, some people would say those might have been the most difficult bills we'll ever pass. I certainly think so because nobody wanted to do Bitcoin. Nobody cared about Bitcoin in the political space and in fact it was almost like a taboo to even talk about it, to even use the word Bitcoin. Most people started to say digital asset and crypto blockchain because Bitcoin was sort of a dirty word for a little while for a number of different reasons, but the main one really was the market was just totally collapsed. So moving forward, we go to another legislative cycle, things get a little better, but not much. Only really better because we had Satoshi action had secured some wins, we had one for Bitcoin. We passed 2 bills into law. We passed right to mine in Montana and in Arkansas in 2023. And then in 2024 we were able to get, I think we had like 16 introductions for just that piece of policy alone. The the, the rights bills, we call them Bitcoin rights. It started off as right to mine, as I said, but it transitioned into Bitcoin rights. It's expanded the policy and it protected everything from the right to mine, to the right to self custody, to the right to run a no, to the right to peer-to-peer transactions. And I don't think I need to explain too long why, because people were worried. Are we even going to be able to use this technology? You know, just as much as I do, when we were sitting in our rooms during the shutdowns, we said, wow, the government can really do bad things pretty quickly. Maybe we should be thinking about what's going to happen to Bitcoin here if the government goes the wrong direction on it. And it certainly seemed like we were absolutely headed the wrong direction during that period on Bitcoin. But going into 2024, we got a lot more bill introductions. We got about 16 just from the Bitcoin rights bill. And even though it was a more expanded and difficult bill to pass because that had more things in it, the more, the more you put in a bill, the harder it can be to pass it at times, depending on what state you're in. And so we had a lot more stuff in it, but we passed it into law in two more states, Oklahoma and Louisiana, bigger states, more populous, more difficult to pass it, but we got it done. But going forward after that, you know, because the question was talk a little bit about where we've come from and where we're at now. Things are way different ever since the election happened. It's completely different for Bitcoin. We are living in an environment where instead of the lawmakers, instead of us reaching out to the lawmakers and saying, hey, listen to about Bitcoin. We got great things to say. Here's all the benefits that Bitcoin can offer. Bitcoin mining can balance the grid. Bitcoin can save your budget. That's not what's happening now after the election. I don't know what it was. I don't think it's just Donald Trump, and I'll explain a little bit here in a moment, but all the sudden we have this wave of lawmakers reaching out to us and saying I want to do Bitcoin policy. That's never happened. Not one time has that happened to us before 2024 and it was after the election specifically in 2024. Now we have lawmakers reaching out and actually we even have Bitcoiners reaching out who won office. The one of the big things that's made it a changed environment, a lot of people own Bitcoin now. And some of those people who are Bitcoiners, they're running for office and they're winning their offices. I had a newly elected state senator. He said I just, he called me up and he said I just won my office for the first time ever. I've never been elected before, but I've been a Bitcoiner since 2017. And I want the first bill that I introduced, the very first piece of legislation that I do. I want it to be a strategic Bitcoin reserve bill. That's incredible. I mean, this is a thing that I've been getting a lot of pushback for for some time. As people say, well, the lawmakers are just doing it because of the clicks and the likes and they can grow their political careers. Maybe that's true. Maybe that's true. But now the difference is that we have actual Bitcoiners running for office, winning and then working on Bitcoin policy because yes, they might grow their political career. Everybody does. When they win, that's that. That's the great part about winning is your career expands. But when they are getting into office, they're doing it initially because they care about Bitcoin, because they they own Bitcoin, they hold Bitcoin. So this is a new paradigm we're in. We are seeing lawmakers reach out in droves. Some of them hold Bitcoin, some of them don't. But everybody wants to do Bitcoin policy now. It's the hot ticket item And as Satoshi Action, the only group in the world who has been able to pass Bitcoin legislation in multiple jurisdictions, we are very well positioned to help these lawmakers. Lawmakers love to work with winners and they want to work with us because we've been able to win in so many different places. And so now we're so well positioned. We're in an incredible place and we can continue to help lawmakers when not only in this coming legislative cycle, it's almost here in January, but we're going to keep winning and we need to keep the momentum moving. People often, you know what they do, things are getting great and they go, you know what, it's good. Now we don't need to do politics anymore. It's quite the opposite. You know, the political landscape can change very rapidly. It's great right now, but that doesn't mean it's always going to be great. We need to make sure and take advantage of the momentum that we have and we need to move quickly and rapidly to secure victories for Bitcoin politically. We need to, you know, we, I often say we were pushing the ball up the hill. It was a really heavy ball. We are pushing it up the hill at Satoshi action, the ball of getting the ball of getting Bitcoin policy passed into law, securing Bitcoin wins. And eventually we got to the top of the hill after the election and then the election happens and now the ball is rolling down the hill. And So what we need to do is we need to chase after that ball as fast as we possibly can to secure as many wins as possible for Bitcoin. We're well positioned to do it. Like I said, we we've done a great job saving in Bitcoin. A lot of people have supported us and we have a lot of we have our own strategic Bitcoin reserve, but we're well positioned and we're we're ready to rock. We have so many bills coming. We'll have at least 10 states. We were saying up to 10. Now we're saying at least 10 states will introduce strategic Bitcoin reserve legislation in 2025. We already had to do it. We had Pennsylvania, We were the first in the world, first in history to introduce strategic Bitcoin reserve legislation at the state level. And then we were #2 again, we went to Texas. We helped the lawmaker there. There was some problems with the bill, but we, we stepped in. We said we're willing to help. That's why the lawmakers like us, because we can see around the corners. We've done this many times before and we were helping a lawmaker and we had that spaces with him and it was an incredible spaces. So many people tuned in and to ask Texas, this is another cool one live on Twitter Spaces live introduced the strategic Bitcoin reserve piece of legislation. I'm pretty sure I've been on a lot of Twitter spaces. I've never seen anybody introduce a bill live. Not not just strategic Bitcoin reserve legislation. It's never happened. We were the first in history to do that as well. So we're going to continue getting wins and securing firsts for Bitcoin because we care about it. You know, I could people often say, are you Dennis, are you paid to do this work? Of course I'm paid to do it, but I could be making a lot more money doing something else. It's a nonprofit. Nonprofits are not a great way to make money. They're not a great way to grow your wealth, but they certainly a great way to secure wins for Bitcoin. We have secured wins for Bitcoin. We're going to continue to secure wins for Bitcoin. And we're very excited about the momentum that we have at our backs as we go into 2025. It's, it's incredible momentum. And I have to ask the follow up question of what do you think is different now? I, I, I saw a clip yesterday, I think of Van Jones sort of in part of the post mortem of like what went wrong for the Democrats talking about how they turned away a lot of single issue crypto voters. And, and I wonder how much of the change in the winds right now for policy is Democrats saying like, actually, we have to catch up. We have to be open to this. We have to play ball versus Republicans saying, you know what Trump has been open to this has made it part of what he wants to do. So I'm, I'm going to follow that if you want to speak to any of the kind of the political landscape that you're seeing and how that shifted. Absolutely. And to just to start, it's a great question Jesse, but it's a it's an important question. It's about, you know, Bitcoin and bipartisanship and Bitcoin being non partisan. A lot of people know I'm very, very, very big on maintaining Bitcoin as a non partisan technology or bipartisan technology. I have spent more time fighting for that than probably anyone in this space. And it's not just me saying that there's a whole book. There's a progressives case for Bitcoin. It's a great book written by a good friend of mine. He has a whole page about all the work that we've done to be able to introduce to Democrats and progressives and liberals to Bitcoin because they're going to love it just as much as the conservatives are. People don't believe me. I think they might like it more. In fact, because Bitcoin can bank the unbanked. It can provide a financially inclusive service to people all over the world. And then you cannot discriminate with Bitcoin. It's not possible. It's impossible to discriminate with Bitcoin. And that is a really important issue to a lot of Democrats, a lot of progressives. It might be one of the most important issues to a big number of the folks on the progressive side of the aisle. So we certainly believe that that's the direction that things are going to go. We're going to continue pushing for that. But yes, the the Democrats miss an opportunity in the election, I think. So I think more Democrats would be elected today if there was more support for Bitcoin, really the digital asset system writ large. We'll talk, we can talk about that at a separate time. But there was not really a lot of support. There was some good ones. We got Ro Khanna, he's a great champion. You know, I've heard Richie Torres talk good things about Bitcoin. There's a number of others that are in the House as well. And we also have some in the Senate who are open who are interested. Senator Wyden, for instance, who is a very powerful Democrat, very interested. But we need to have more support. And we did not have that support from Democrats, unfortunately. And I do believe a number of them lost their offices or Republicans won their offices because of their support for Bitcoin. Everybody knows Republicans are out on the lead on Bitcoin, but it's only a matter of time before the other party, Democrats, they get smart on this thing and they start to compete because this is going to be one of the most important groups that you can get on your side because you have Bitcoiners and you have crypto people who not only are they really invested, they've got some of these. Some people are living 100% on Bitcoin. I mean, some people that's all they own. They just own Bitcoin. A lot of my friends are like that. And so not only do they have all their wealth tied up in Bitcoin because they truly believe in it, they also believe that Bitcoin is going to do great things for society. Bitcoin is going to, as we already said, bank the unbanked. It's going to be a financially inclusive system. It's also going to help keep a lot of this overspending and waste that we have. It's going to keep it in check. You can't debase the money anymore. You got to, you got to ask permission, so to speak. So people can use the dollar if they want, but they can also go to Bitcoin now. So now lawmakers can't just print as much money as they want. Otherwise people can leave. So Bitcoin will act as a check and balance on the money printer. You also have Bitcoin mining, which is this powerful tool for balancing the grid, for enhancing clean energy. So you have going back, you have the Bitcoiners, they're way tied into Bitcoin. They have all their wealth in it. And then Bitcoin also does all these great things. And so Bitcoin voters, Bitcoin supporters are very, very active. They're some of the most aggressive voters, as I call them. They're like the 300. You don't need very many of them. They're going to get really active. They're going to fight hard and they're going to win with just a few people. And this is the environment we live in. And Democrats are going to figure that out. And I think some Democrats are going to come out as Bitcoiners soon. I think we're going to see a lot more of that now that this big loss has happened. Let's take a look at what happened in the election too, Like what were the big races where we saw a significant amount of negative outcomes for Democrats because of the opposition to Bitcoin? We saw a lot of negative repercussions in some of the Senate races we saw, particularly in Ohio. Sherrod Brown was vulnerable. Nobody is denying that he was vulnerable because the state is getting a little bit more red. But the thing that really set it off for him, the thing that really caused him a lot of problems was he became very opposed to Bitcoin and to really to crypto writ large. He was the chair of Senate Banking. He still is today until till we get to next year. But he lost his seat, in my opinion, because he utilized his position, his authority as chair of Senate Banking to hurt the Bitcoin industry, to hurt the crypto industry. He did it by allowing the DE banking to pit to take place and not doing anything to get in the way of it. And we've seen a crazy amount of DE banking taking place. It's a big problem. It's all across the industry. We're seeing little mom and pop shops, people who don't have the ability to navigate this stuff. We're seeing them be the bank. We're seeing them, their businesses get crushed. I mean, imagine being debanked 10 times. We've had people that are being debanked 10 times. It's incredibly horrible what's happening to these people and we need to fix it. But Sherrod Brown, sort of at bare minimum, he let it happen or worse. It's possible. We'll see when we come. Some people do some more of the investigations and they dig deep into this stuff. He may have been a part of it, but we'll see. But he certainly was speaking negatively about Bitcoin and crypto, and that led for an open door for Bernie Moreno. Bernie Moreno comes out of nowhere and he starts running and he becomes very supportive of Bitcoin. I think he was even supportive of it much before he ran. And it's hard to argue, it's very hard to argue that there were any other defining reasons why he lost because what happened was that that race became an inflection point for the Bitcoin and crypto space. Everybody saw this is the most important race. We have to win it. We have to show that we are here to stay and we're going to impact these campaigns. And you need to be able to impact campaigns and the outcomes of races if you expect to be taken seriously as an industry. The NRA does it all the time for the gun guys. You've got the military guys, you've got the unions, you've got the healthcare industry. People respect those industries because they will cause you to win or lose. They can decide a race. Well, Bitcoin can decide races now too. Sherrod Brown lost his race. He was beaten in Ohio, and he's gone. He's going to be gone from the US Senate, in my opinion, really almost explicitly because of his opposition to Bitcoin and crypto. That's the kind of outcome, in my opinion, that results in a lot of a lot of really bad things. And so you have a lot of lawmakers across the country looking at that going, wow, you know, there's this industry now and they'll just drop, they dropped $200 million in the race. The crypto Bitcoin writ large industry placed at $200 million in opposition to Sherrod Brown and put it in support of Bernie Moreno. So lawmakers are, you know, they're smart. You know, a lot of people think lawmakers aren't smart. They're very smart. They're very instinctual. They saw that and they go, wow, I don't want to have $200 million placed against me. I'm actually good with crypto. I'm good with Bitcoin. Or sometimes they go, wow, actually I'm going to now I'm going to go learn about Bitcoin and crypto. I'm hearing that a lot. A lot of lawmakers reaching out and saying, tell me, tell me everything I need to know. Clearly this is, you know, this is an industry that I need to be paying more attention to. That's the way the system works. I don't wish, I'm not a big money guy in politics. I don't like all the money in politics. I think it's a big problem, but unfortunately it's a system that we have and you have to have the money on your side, otherwise you can't win your race. You got to get a bare minimum threshold. So I don't like that this money is being spent so much in the space, but it is. People need to pay attention to the crypto industry. Bitcoin industry writ large accounted for roughly half of all super PAC money. Again, I'm not a big super PAC guy, but it's a system we have. But the crypto industry accounted for roughly half of all the money spent. That's insane. If you think about it, look, take a step back, We beat the Koch brothers. If you pay attention to politics, the Koch brothers, they're always the ones that get all the grief for all the money they spend in politics. We beat the Koch brothers. We beat the oil and gas industry. We beat the military. We beat all of them. We beat the healthcare. We were half of everything. Now, if you go back 10 years, we're actually #2 the number two biggest spender. Even though we never used to spend very much money in politics or in campaigns, we're the number two biggest spender in the last 10 years in the United States. And that's just from one political cycle. What's going to happen next political cycle? We're going to see it double down because what happens when you win, people love to put extra money on their winners. They like to double down on their winners. And people are certainly going to be doubling down on the political space. And I'm very excited for it. We're certainly going to see, I think a wave of Democrats start paying a lot more attention. And as a last note here, I'll, I'll say this on the Democrats because I'm, you know me. I'm, I live in Portland, OR so I got a lot of Democrat friends and I understand their positions, but I had a Democrat office who they talked, they like to talk to me. We talked about Bitcoin. They're nice office, but we sat down for, we sat down to for a meeting and normally we say we, we chat for 20 minutes, thirty minutes tops. That's it. We sat down for two hours and we talked about Bitcoin and we talked about a strategic Bitcoin reserve. We've never had those conversations before. I think people are finally waking up to this thing, and they need to, because if Democrats don't pay attention to Bitcoin and crypto, they're going to keep losing their races and they're going to not be in a good position to help set policy on Bitcoin and crypto. They're going to just let the Republicans do it all. And I don't think that's smart of them. I think we need both sides working on policy together. Amen. That's well said, Dennis, very well articulated and congratulations on your successes in the recent years here. In light of the change landscape, you know, let's press this a little more. Which states do you consider now maybe the most progressive or the most interested or likely to, to achieve, whether it's a Bitcoin reserve or some other pro Bitcoin or Bitcoin friendly policy? I mean, you mentioned 4 states where you already achieved legislation. You know what, what are the, what's the short list that you're looking at right now? And where are you pressing pressing the advantage here? Great question. I will. I'll try to without revealing too much because we have to be careful. You know, you were there. You know what happens? You, you, you gave me a nice compliment about my stealing the show in California when we met for Bitcoin Day. But you saw what happens when you get, when you talk too early about things and you and you announce them too early. You got to be really careful. If you talk about it too early. Learn this lesson the hard way myself, very hard. I got made fun of it pretty badly for it, actually. You learn the hard way. You can't talk too much too early. So you got to be careful. But I do want to give people an idea of where we're seeing a lot of success. I'll, I'll talk more about where we've seen success, but maybe not where we will see success because I don't want to give away too much of the information too early. And then we cause problems for these lawmakers. You got to protect the policy process. You got to protect the lawmaker, and you got to protect the state. You know, we've got a lot of journalists watching us now. You got the AP who just wrote an article. We were in it. You, you know, the New York Times has basically done a whole article trying to tear us apart. They couldn't weird. We, they couldn't find anything on us. They had to write this fluff piece about how we are close to Trump people and that's why we're so bad. Well, it's, you know, this is the world we live in. You're going to you're going to interact with people from all sorts of different sides of the political aisle when you're in politics. So that's a normal thing, but we got to be careful about the policy process. But the states where we've seen a lot of winning, we've seen a lot of winning in states like Georgia, we've seen a lot of winning for Bitcoin mining there. Texas has done a lot of winning for Bitcoin mining as well. I would say both those states, though one thing to keep in mind is they've attracted a lot of Bitcoin mining, but it's because of the pre-existing system that it was in place. They haven't, they haven't done a lot. You know, I asked them, I said what, how'd you get all the Bitcoin miners here? And they said, well, all this stuff was here already in the 1st place. So it just, they just came in and they plugged in. We haven't done anything to actually attract them. We haven't passed any new laws to attract them. So, so Texas got lucky. Good for them. We're happy to have them because now we got a lot of the Bitcoin mining, but we need to see more, more winning than that. You know, we helped states win on Bitcoin rights. We helped Montana. They were one of the first, they were the number two in the country to be able to pass right to mine, which protects the right to Bitcoin mining. And then we also see it saw it pass in Arkansas, which passed that legislation into law. It was the very first in the world in history. It's passed that legislation into law. We've also seen in Oklahoma, they passed the expanded version of the Bitcoin rights bill, which had a lot more stuff in it, right to mine, right to self custody. Same thing in Louisiana as well. But I will going back to Oklahoma. I like Oklahoma. I think there's a lot of great Bitcoiners there in the government and like around the government as well who care a lot about Bitcoin and they kind of competitive. You know, Oklahoma and Texas think they really don't like they like each other just enough, but they're they're very competitive with each other, especially Oklahoma. They're like Texas always takes all the light. So Oklahoma I think is coming for Texas. I think Oklahoma is going to show the world that it is more pro Bitcoin than Texas. You know, Texas, they say we're pro Bitcoin. We're the number one Bitcoin place. They say a lot of things, but they need to do a lot of things. I and that's just something I've said for a long time. You cannot just let lawmakers say positive things about you and not do anything because they'll just get away with it and they'll just keep doing that. They'll play. It's called lip service. There's a lot of industries and a lot of movements in the political space where they have let lawmakers just say nice, fancy things about them and tell them how great they are, and they don't do anything. And it goes on and on for decades and decades. Nothing ever happens. Nothing ever. Nothing ever progresses and lawmakers just learn, oh, all I got to do is say nice things about these people and that's all they want. They don't need, they don't want me to pass any laws. We need the lawmakers to pass laws. If you're going to say great things about Bitcoin, you can't just say great things. You got to do great things. You got to pass legislation. You got to make your state a better place to be. So we highly encourage more folks, Texas and everybody else, You got to pass more legislation and there's many states coming. I'm very excited about Pennsylvania. We were able to introduce our strategic Bitcoin reserve bill there. It was the first in history to do that and they want more. They are coming back. 2025 is going to be very busy. It's going to be packed. You know the lawmakers there. The great thing is that we have a few different lawmakers that we talked to, their good relationships with them and they say things like, you know, I'm talking to other lawmakers and they told me that this is the thing there is they're getting more mail, they're getting more emails, they're getting more messages and more constituents reaching out to them about Bitcoin than anything else. And that is very important. That's super important because lawmakers, like I said, they're smart, they're instinctual. When you say you want something, they're going to listen and they can, they can ignore you, but they know that they can only ignore you for so long and then you're going to do something about it. So and we just certainly will do something about it in the Bitcoin space. We've proven that with the election. That's really, that's the, that's how you keep the lawmakers accountable. The elections is how we keep them accountable. That way they know that we can come in and we can say, listen, if you're not going to do what we want, if you're not going to support Bitcoin, we're going to put someone in who will support Bitcoin and who is going to care about the future of this country. And that because Bitcoin is going to do all these incredible things for the United States and for the rest of the world as well. So Pennsylvania is a great one. A lot of great things happening there. Very excited about some other states. I wish I could say who they were. They're coming there. I will have another one this week. We're supposed to have it this week. Another third bill, 1/3 strategic Bitcoin reserve bill will be introduced this week. That's the word on the street. There might be a fourth, actually, because a lot of lawmakers are coming. They want this stuff. They want it. They want to be the first, too. Everybody wants to be first. They want to get the legislation done before the others. So you're going to see game theory take off. We talk about game theory a lot in the Bitcoin space. Game theory is about to take off. January is going to be a race. It'll be a race between the states. It'll be a race between the States and the federal government as well. Because Trump could do an executive order if he wants. People are saying he will. I've talked to a lot of people who say that he's going to do an executive order and they're very confident about it. They think he's going to do it. He's going to use the exchange stabilization fund to do it and he's going to buy Bitcoin, put it in the treasury. He's going to end the US Marshals auction of the Bitcoin and put it into the treasury, put it into the strategic Bitcoin reserve. But he only has a little bit of time. He's got to do it right away. If he doesn't do it right away, the states are going to win. And you know me, I'm a big states guy. I love the states. I want the states to win. That's where we're also being the most effective. So of course, you know, I'm always going to want my side to win, but I think we all win if we do get a strategic Bitcoin reserve at the federal level. At Onramp, we believe that Bitcoin is the most important asset of the 21st century. The hard part is securing it right. There are shortcomings with keeping your coins on an exchange, but also with setting up your own self custody arrangement. Onramp solves for these concerns. Our multi institution custody solution maximizes security and minimizes counterparty risk, ensuring that your Bitcoin remains securely in your possession and provides built in inheritance planning to ensure your family is protected as well. On ramp provides Peace of Mind for your Bitcoin journey, whether for your whole stack or for part of it as a compliment to your existing self custody set up. For more information, check us out at on rampbitcoin.com. Yeah, it's it's incredible. It feels like, like the moment in the, in the hockey stick graph right before, if things go vertical in terms of the competition, the game theory and we, you know, in Bitcoin, we always think about the nation state game theory of like, OK, well, whoever uses the printing press to buy Bitcoin first is going to, you know, have a disproportionate advantage in the, in, in the 21st century. But I, I tend not to think about it at the, at the state level. And there really is an opportunity here that that Dennis, I think you're, you're keyed into that. There's there's an opportunity for a state to carve out an identity as like the Bitcoin progressive state, you know, the, the, the champion of Bitcoin rights and, you know, the home of Bitcoin in America. And, and I feel like maybe that's some of the conversations you're having with States and lawmakers in, in states who, who are starting to see that opportunity. But I can definitely see how this would snowball pretty quickly in the in the game theory of states trying to out compete each other to make that, you know, to become to become the California for the Internet. But now for Bitcoin and and be the the home of where all that innovation and and and and and companies want to be in the Bitcoin space. Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, if you want to speak at all to that or like is, is that what you're seeing? Is that where you see this going? Absolutely. We see it going that way. You know, states love to compete. We call it the laboratory of democracy. The states are competing. Senator Lummus, we had a spaces just recently, her and I spoke one-on-one on Twitter. Spaces. A lot of people were pretty surprised by that. But you know, Senator Lummus loves the state work. She loves what's going on at the states. She's a very big advocate for states rights and for states being what she calls the incubator. That's what she said on the Twitter Spaces. She said the states are the incubator for good ideas. And I 100% agree with her. The states are a great place. In fact, Senator Lummus started at the state level. She started as a state lawmaker and then she's also the treasurer. So she really understands the stuff. She understands how the states can be a great place. She actually was a part of the state's leading when she was in Wyoming. She was a big part of that. And so, so much of her staff as well. She's got incredible staff and her staff was, they were also highly involved in Wyoming to get things done. And so they took all that team and they said, let's go to Washington, DC, Let's take these winners. You want winners on your team and let's take them to Washington, DC and get the work done there as well. So they've done that. They've done a great job trying to advocate for Bitcoin at the state level. They graduated to DC where they continue to fight for Bitcoin. But certainly Senator Lummus really sees the potential of the States, and we do want the states to compete. You want competition just like you want the Republicans and the Democrats to compete for your vote, because competition is good. When people are competing, we see the consumer do well. The consumer wins. In this case, the consumer is the voter. The voter benefits from competition and Americans benefit from competition between the states. You know, we've had a lot of different industries where we've we've had the states compete in the past, The auto industry, the tech industry, the oil and gas industry, the renewable industry. There's a lot of industries that are very successful here in America because of that competition. And so we're trying to foster that competition as rapidly as we can. We want way more competition. And the great part about Bitcoin versus a lot of other industries is you can really compete with Bitcoin pretty much anywhere. You know, the tech industry is not a lot of places the tech industry could go. You need a lot of talent. You need tons of people. This industry is different. It's very decentralized. You can, you know, especially with remote work these days, you really can be pretty much anywhere. You know, you can set up a institution or a bank in a state that doesn't even have any people and it can just be a pass through for the crypto industry. That's that's great. You don't need any very much talent at all. You can provide a lot of banking opportunities for people. You can mine Bitcoin, you can become a hub for Bitcoin mining. You can become the Innovation Center for Bitcoin mining. There's a lot of opportunity there and especially in rural parts of the country. These rural parts, they've really been left behind. They don't, they don't, they don't get a lot of love from the tech industry. They're they're typically very anti tech in fact, because they've been so left behind by the tech industry. But Bitcoin mining is different. Bitcoin and Bitcoin mining is willing to go into those rural parts and create tech jobs in the middle of the rural parts of this country. No ones doing that. No, no tech company is creating jobs in rural America. Bitcoin is, Bitcoin mining is, and so that's why there's just, that's just one of many, many reasons why there's opportunity for all the states to participate. Small states, small economies or big States and big economies, they all have an opportunity here to stake their claim and they're going to try it. They're going to work. They are working right now to do that. So we're excited about the lawmakers competing. We want to see a lot more competition take place and we are going to do everything we can to foster that competition. So, ultimately, that the United States is the best place in the world for Bitcoin. Yeah, I love that framing. It is really important for lawmakers to understand that there's opportunity for all 50 States and obviously, there's opportunity for all the countries of the world. And some are already taking advantage, although it's very early innings. So, Dennis, how about you pull out your crystal ball? Let's wind the clock forward a year. OK. And if you don't mind, if you'll humor me on a couple scenarios, what does the success case look like for you? I mean, you talked about right to mine, you know, expanded Bitcoin rights, including self custody. Obviously the, you know, the Bitcoin reserve. There's a bunch of different factors at play here. But I'm curious what you think, you know, how you would explain what happened in the last year. This is again with the clock wound forward in the success case versus the opposite case. Yeah, I'm very big and I'm a very big optimist. So we'll start with the the success case here. I don't like to think too much about how bad it could get, but I'll I'll certainly dive into that a little bit there. So the optimistic case is with these states, we've got at least 10, maybe 12 states that want to introduce strategic Bitcoin reserve legislation. You know, we're very optimistic about the outcome. People keep saying, well, what are the odds you're going to pass one of these bills into law? It's very high. Let me tell you, it's very, very high because we not only have all the success, we've already done this before. I think a lot of people forget we know how to pass legislation. We've done it before. We've been doing our team who we've only been around for three years, but our team has been doing it for a long time. Our policy director has been doing it for a decade. My Co founders have been in doing the political game for over a decade. Our research guy, he's been doing it for way longer. He's like 2530 years. So we have the team, we have the skills, we have the experience, not only outside the Bitcoin space, but now inside the Bitcoin space to get these bills across the finish line. And the great part about it is we're in this era with a lot of political momentum where there's so many lawmakers that want to stake their claim, whether they be pro Bitcoin or they're because they own it or they just see the opportunity, they want to stake their claim. And so lawmakers are working aggressively to introduce this legislation and to pass it. In fact, we have a state, one state, maybe 2, but one state for sure. It's almost a near 100% chance that we passed the legislation into law. And I normally don't say that. I normally am very, I'm very cautious with saying those types of things because I would always normally say it's maybe a 20% chance because it's a lot of work. People don't realize how much work goes into passing legislation. Not only do you got to convince a lawmaker, you got to write the law, you got to convince a lawmaker they introduce the legislation. You hope you get a committee hearing. You don't always get one. You got to fight for it, got to fight for a committee hearing. And then when you get it on the calendar, you got to fly to the state, you got to write testimony. You help other people write testimony. You meet with the individual committee members, you talk to them, them, you explain to them why it matters. And then you go to the committee hearing and you give your your testimony, you testify and then they say, OK, what are we going to do? Then they vote on it. Hopefully you get a vote. You pass out of the committee. Then you go to the floor vote, whether it's the House or the Senate depends on where you started. You go to the floor, you vote. You hope you get that passed too. So that's a whole nother wave of voting. And on a different day too, by the way, it's not all in once it's like they may, they stagger it out. And then what happens is you have to, after you pass it on one side, you have to repeat all of that on the other side. So it's double all of that work. And then, of course, you have to work with the governor's office to get his signature. So it's an incredible amount of work that goes into passing legislation. And there's a lot of things that can go wrong along the way. And we've been able to do it. We've been able to do it four times all the way through the process, passed 4 bills in four different states, and now we need to do it again, but we need to do it for the strategic Bitcoin Reserve legislation. But one of the things that's really great at this one state where it's a near 100% guarantee the lawmakers there, what they do to be able to give themselves the extra ability to get legislation across the finish line is they'll meet in the offseason. A lot of these state legislators, they meet, you know, part time. They only are there maybe three months, two months. In some states it's every other year for two months. So it's very limited time. You got to move fast. So what they'll do is they'll meet before the legislative cycle. Some lawmakers will get together. They call it a task force and they say, OK, what legislation do we like and what do we not like? It's like a pregame. They the pre vote to see if they get can get pre support for a piece of legislation. This one task force that we've been working with for over a year, they're great people, really smart, they really understand this stuff. Got a lot of great lawmakers in there and they vote on bills and every bill they've ever had go through that committee, every single one that is passed through and they voted in favor of has passed into law 100% of the time it is passed into law. Well, our bill just passed out of that task force. So that's why we say we have a near 100% chance we're passing the legislation. I can't guarantee you can never guarantee anything in life, but we're close to being able to guarantee it because we would be the only bill. What's the odds that we're the only bill that doesn't pass? It's very low odds. So very high odds that we will pass it. And that's just one state. There are other states where we feel very optimistic about, we feel very good about, and I would say at least three other states where we feel really good about the legislation. That's a, that's a neutral position though. I would say if we're lucky, if we have a bowl case here, things go really well. We could see this legislation pass in six or seven states. That would be truly monumental. I mean, that would be huge. We got to keep our expectations in check though. So we think one to two states, bare minimum, will pass this legislation into law. But that is, once you do it, it's done and it's, it's then it's then it is OK, how many more can we get after that? And we'll keep coming back. That's the thing that people don't realize about Satoshi action and they don't realize about me is we never stop. We're going to keep coming back because we love to win. And once we started winning, we don't want to stop winning. So we're going to be back as much as we have to, to be able to get these things across the finish line and then ultimately also create that political momentum. You know, when we do this at the state level, when we pass these laws, the federal level, they pay attention. The whole political parties pay attention. In fact, once we passed strategic Bitcoin reserve legislation into law, you'll see a lot of folks start to endorse this legislation and try to pass it very rapidly. The same thing happened with our Bitcoin rights legislation right after right after we passed our fourth bill of Bitcoin rights, the right to mine and the right to self custody the whole GOP party. Said look at that. Look at all this great work happening in the red states because we passed all four of these bills in red states. We love the blue states too. Some blue state news is coming. But they said, wow, look at this. It's so popular. The right to mine, the right to self custody. Let's take that exact language. They took literally those exact words and they put them right into the party platform for the GOP. The whole party now endorses the right to mine. The whole party now endorses the right to self custody and it's great. You love to see that. You want to see more parties do that and you want to see the Democrats do it too. And I think they will. I think especially when it comes to the right to self custody, they really want to protect access. They're very, very big on allowing the average American to have access to financial tools. So that's what happens though. You pass legislation and other people want to do it too and they want to make it their whole party platform. So I think that's strategic Bitcoin reserve legislation. Once we pass it, not only are we going to pass it in other states, I think the parties might even say, wow, we should just make this a whole thing. We should make it a part of our party platform. The party platform has a bunch of different planks. They're called planks and they essentially are the different issues. They have a crypto plank in the Republican Party platform and it says if you go read it, it says we will protect the right to mine and the right to self custody. We're very proud to have had them use the language that we passed into law in those four states. We think we're going to see a lot more of that now. You said give both sides pessimistic and I think the pessimistic outcome is we pass it in one state. To be honest, I think it's happening. I think we're going to get in one state no matter what. That's pessimistic to me. And it'll be just the creation of the strategic reserve. We won't see any sort of allocations. We'll just see them create the reserve and you can add tax money to it or you can donate to it or something along those lines. I think that's going to be obvious that we'll get at least one to do that. It's too easy. Or they'll pass one state and they'll say, OK, we only want the criminal Bitcoin, the Bitcoin that was confiscated through the criminal courts, that that criminal Bitcoin is going to go into the strategic reserve and we are going to keep it for ourselves. I mean, it's just a no brainer there. What what should they do? Should they auction the Bitcoin off or should they keep the Bitcoin? I think they should keep the Bitcoin. We got to be careful about confiscation in this country. But I think it's a no brainer if all the things were done right, if all the process was done right and you have a scammer who scammed people out of their Bitcoin and they can't get the Bitcoin back to the people and the government holds the Bitcoin now, the government should not sell the Bitcoin. It's too valuable, it's too important. We need to hold on to it. Senator Lumas even agrees with that. They're doing the same. They want to do the same thing at the federal level. We got to stop the US Marshals auction. They're trying to auction almost 200,000 Bitcoin off. We can't let that happen. If that happens, if we even sell really Trump promised, he said we won't sell any. We will keep 100%. These are his words. We will keep 100% of the Bitcoin that is currently held by the US government and all future Bitcoin. I think we got to keep that promise. We cannot sell a single sat of the Bitcoin that we hold the government's, whether they be the state government or the federal government. Yeah, that's really well said. Couldn't agree with you more in that regard. I think we're all on the same page with respect to Bitcoin being the best hard asset there is and this being a strategic factor for maintaining and securing the security of our country. And so appreciate the efforts, the great efforts on your part to create a little bit of tension, honestly. And it's not, you know, it's not like it's not out of malice or anything. It's, it's out of love, right? It's, this is the thing to own. All Americans will benefit from it. Individuals, you know, local municipalities, states, the federal government. This is a race to secure the world's hardest monetary asset in a world of rampant debasement of of Fiat currencies. Absolutely. You know, we got it. We got it. Like, listen, even the states, they need it, right? They need to. If the states, I was just in Washington state, they have a $12 billion deficit over the next four years, 12 billion. It's not something that they can just print that the federal government, they have the money printer. They can just say magically we can, we want more debt. We have more debt now. It's just a little bit little little SWIP of a pen and they've got more money. The states can't do that. They don't have a money printer, they're not allowed to. It's unconstitutional. So they are much more cautious when it comes to protecting their budgets. But what happened? We saw inflation rage across this country. We saw the amount of costs that go up for everything. The employees, the housing, everything is way up. And that's a big problem for these states. Their budgets are massively constrained. They have huge shortfalls because of the inflation that we saw over the last four years. And now what's going to happen is you have states like Washington where they have two options. They can do one or two, one of two things. They can either cut tax. They can either cut programs or they can raise taxes. Both of those things are not good. People are not going to like those things. Nobody likes when you get rid of the programs. Nobody likes when you raise taxes. They're going to have to do it though, if they're not careful. What could have happened to though? How could we have solved this problem or avoid this problem if states like Washington state where they have a $12 billion budget deficit over the next four years, if they had just said, you know what, let's add a little bit of Bitcoin to the Treasury right before all the inflation, not only would they not have a shortfall, it's very likely they'd have extra money to spend on top of it. So it's super important. You know, we say, oh, it's great to hold Bitcoin, but we need to hold Bitcoin. These governments, they need it. They need to protect themselves there. We're in an era now where inflation is happening every 5-10 years all the time. We need to have protection against that at the state level, but also at the federal level. We need protection from things like bricks. Bricks is becoming a big problem. For those of you that don't know what bricks is, it is a group of countries that got together. They basically say, you know what, let's pick the the country that is the highest economic driver in a certain region of the world and they'll join in together and we'll create a system that competes with the United States. But there's a, there's a small known secret, of course, about bricks, which is it's, it's mostly ran by countries that don't like the United States very much. I wouldn't say we hate each other, but we certainly don't like each other very much right now. And those countries, they want to compete with the United States, but not just compete, they also want to win. They want to beat the United States. They want to, they want to displace us. They want to be the new world order or at least create a multipolar world where there's two world orders. That is a different environment than where we where we are today. the United States pretty much controls all the financial system all across the world. We can pull a trigger and all of a sudden someone we don't like isn't able to use the financial system anymore. We did it to Russia right in the middle of the Ukraine war. They didn't like that. That scared them. So they're searching for options and we need to make sure that as we enter this multi polar world where BRICS, Russia, China, Iran, all these countries that don't like us, we need to make sure we have a neutral money because it's going to get really hot. It could get really hostile. I'm predicting that it could get very hostile. Whenever you see, whenever you see groups of countries get together and say we want to be the captain now bad things can happen. That's where you see mass conflict take place. That's where you see all sorts of things breakdown. It's a very scary place that we're in right now. We need to be very careful and that's why a neutral money, I call it the Switzerland of money, Bitcoin is more important than ever. We need to have a way to interoperably interact with each other and I think Bitcoin could be a solution to that. And also Bitcoin can act as a hedge against any type of scenario where bricks becomes the new world order. I don't think that'll happen, but even if it's a 1% chance, we got to have a little bit of Bitcoin to defend ourselves against it. Amen. So, Dennis, let's talk a little bit about timing. I mean, the race is ongoing right now. You're working furiously, communicating, preparing, you know, pitching various states on how they can get ahead of this freight train that's coming through. Is this all going to play out literally in the next couple of months? We're here on December 16th, 2024. I mean, how rapidly could additional legislation and or policy changes be implemented here? I mean, at the state level, it's going to happen fast. It's going to happen very fast. These states don't meet for very long. They meet for months at a time. So they're going to meet and they're going to say let's do it, let's move forward. And it's going to happen really fast. It's going to happen in the first six months of the of the next year. It's going to happen almost instantly. It'll feel like to people because you'll see the bill get introduced officially, some of them already are. And then you'll see it get its hearing and then it'll vote and we'll pass it out of the hearing. And the people, wow, it already passed out of the hearing. And then it'll go to the floor and they're going to get unanimous votes for some of the stuff in some of these states, in my opinion, which means everybody votes in favor of it. And then it's going to go to the other side. And then it's going to go to the governor's desk. And they're going to sign it into law. And it's going to happen fast, very fast. And then from there, we're going to see the federal government, if it hasn't done the executive order already. You know, Trump has an opportunity here. He could end the auction. He could come through on his promise and say, we're keeping 100% of the Bitcoin. But he has to act. He has to act right away. Otherwise, the US Marshals will auction off the Bitcoin that is currently held, and they need to do that. They need to hold all the Bitcoin That can happen right away with an executive order. Trump doesn't need to ask permission. He can just do it himself. He should come through on his promise. He should do that. But even if he doesn't do that, we're still going to see momentum pick up and move forward with this type of legislation at the federal level. Senator Lummus's team, they're doing incredible stuff. They really, really know how to talk about strategic Bitcoin reserve legislation. They're so good at it. I mean, I was talking to Senator Lummus on the spaces, but I also got a chance, of course, regularly to sit down with her team. They are experts. They're they're almost, they might even be better than me. And I never say that about anyone when it comes to strategic Bitcoin reserve legislation. They talk about it very good, very smart, very eloquent. And we're very excited that they are there fighting for this type of policy in Washington, DC. So we want to see it happen at the federal level. Who knows? It's hard to know for sure. Washington, DC, sometimes it's a place where dreams going to die. But we'll do it at the state level no matter what. And it's going to happen. And then the federal government is going to go, wow, look at all this stuff happening at the state level, we better do it too. We're going to miss out. We're supposed to be the ones leading. So they need to lead. They need to follow the States and they need to pass strategic Bitcoin reserve legislation into law. I would say best case scenario, Trump comes in, he creates it, he starts to kind of create a quasi strategic Bitcoin reserve. And then legislation needs to follow because even if he does an executive order, he needs to make sure we need to make sure that legislation follows up to enshrine it into law. Because if what happens is Trump can't win again, he will only be one. He's already done one term and now he's going to be doing his second term. So he can't run again. So what'll happen is you'll have another race for the president in four years. And if he, if someone wins and they don't like Trump and they don't like, maybe they don't like Bitcoin, but they win and they don't like Trump or they don't like Bitcoin, they could say with a stroke of a pen, well, my executive order is to get rid of the strategic Bitcoin reserve. And we really, we really cannot have that happen. So we need to once, if Trump does the executive order, no matter what, we need to still follow up with legislation. And I do believe that there is a good shot of doing that. But we got to be diligent. We can't. We cannot wait around. We got to continue to run and Sprint after the momentum that we've created. Very well said. Very well said. Well, as we finish up the year here in 2024 and we head toward Inauguration Day and as legislators, you know, get into session here, I do want to point people toward your organization's Satoshi Action Fund, obviously. What other, you know, ideas or recommendations do you have for all the Bitcoiners listening to this show, as well as more broadly? You know, what actions can people take either right now or in the coming months here? People should make sure to take action. You know, one of the best things I always tell people is if you don't want to do politics, you know, a lot of people say that thank you for doing politics because I don't want to do politics. It is. It is certainly not a line of work for everybody, that's for sure. But what you can do if you want to help us and you don't even have to do anything political. You don't even have to write a letter if you just go out and build something, build something in the Bitcoin space, build a Bitcoin business or build your own strategic Bitcoin reserve. Because when we are able to show examples of Bitcoin progress of Bitcoin industry of things being built with Bitcoin, lawmakers love that. They love to see what is happening with the industry. So the more that's being built, the more we can you know, brag about it to the lawmakers and say look at all these great things happening. So every time someone does something great in the Bitcoin space, whether it be software, hardware, whether it be Bitcoin mining, whether it be making it a way for people to use Lightning Network, we need it all. We need all of that so that we can so go to the lawmakers and say we got to protect this industry. We need it in our, we need it in our borders. We want to keep it here in the US. We want it to be made in the US. So that's really important. If you don't want to do anything political at all, that's the best way that you can help #2 if you want to get on the political side, you can write a letter to your lawmaker. We do these letter writing campaigns all the time. We are really good at it. In fact, we were able to get on our last letter writing campaign, 190,000 letters, more than 190,000 letters sent. In total, we've sent over 250,000 letters to lawmakers with the tools that we provide to our advocates. So if you care about Bitcoin and you want to see Bitcoin be successful, you can watch out for those letter writing campaigns and you can furiously write your lawmaker politely, of course, but furiously and let them know that you support Bitcoin and that you want a strategic Bitcoin reserve. Additionally, of course, we are nonprofit. We're always trying to raise money. So if you do like our work, if you're listening and you go, wow, that is the stuff that we need to fund. This is the work that we need to get progress on. We need to have more of these bills and we need to make sure that we're winning with Bitcoin in the United States. You can certainly donate to us. We will take your dollars. We'll spend those first. And then if you donate Bitcoin, we'll, we'll save on to that. We have our own strategic Bitcoin reserve as well at Satoshi Action. So we try to save as much of the Bitcoin as we can. But yes, if people want to help, they can certainly donate. They can support our political efforts by writing letters. They can meet their lawmakers and tell them and say, hey, you got to support Bitcoin. All of that goes a long way with lawmakers. But additionally, if you don't want to do anything politically at all, you're like, no, I don't want to touch it, Nothing to do with it. Just build stuff, build good Bitcoin businesses here in America. That is going to speak volumes to lawmakers. Well, Amen to that, Dennis. I haven't been as we mentioned all that active politically, including with respect to Bitcoin. But overall, I have to say I appreciate your aggressive style here and I agree 100%. Now is the time to press the advantage, right? We've we've gotten through this period of literally years, you know, basically playing defense, being attacked on all sides by the prior administration through through means fair and more means foul. And now is the time to get things done and belt and suspenders. That's the way, as you pointed out, you know, it's great to get an executive order done. Also, we need legislation. Your efforts are in some sense just beginning here. And I encourage people to to lend yours, excuse me, to lend their support to your strong efforts. You've had a lot of successes and I expect a lot of successes in the future for you and your organization. So thank you very much for all you do and thank you for coming on Scarce assets. Thank you for having me on, Andy and Jesse, it's great chatting with you and I appreciate the great interview and looking forward to. We got to get your book out. We got to get more of your book in the hands of more lawmakers. We got to get all of the Bitcoin books out there as much as we possibly can. And you wrote a great 1. So thank you for all the work that you've done in the space. You were an early book writer. Not a lot of people did that. It's it's, I thought about it. It's a lot of work. I never got it done. So congratulations to you on getting your book out there and I look forward to the next time that we can talk in person. Likewise, Thank you, Dennis. Appreciate it. Keep up the great work. Thanks for listening to this week's episode of the show. If you found the information valuable, please share the episode with a friend or leave a rating on your favorite podcast app. All the links we discussed in today's show will be in the show notes inside your podcast app. Before we finish, a quick reminder that Onramp Media is for informational and entertainment purposes only, and nothing should be construed as investment or legal advice, regardless of where you are on your Bitcoin. Journey, we'd love to hear from you. Visit onrampbitcoin.com/contact to schedule a consultation with one of our private Client Advisors.