Transcript+
Let's be clear, Bitcoin is an international asset. We are spending like drunken sailors. Bitcoin is the only economic entity. Where the? Supply is unaffected by the demand if you want to preserve your wealth. You have to convert that currency into an asset that's scarce, desirable, portable, durable, and maintainable. Welcome back to Scarce Assets, a podcast by On Ramp Institutional. In this episode, we sat down with Josh Fair, founder of Scottsdale Mint in the Wyoming Reserve, who brings 20 years of experience in the precious metal space. We unpack the conversions between precious metals and Bitcoin, the sound money thesis behind both, and why nation states are reclaiming physical ownership of strategic assets like gold and soon, We believe Bitcoin. At On Ramp we help institutions prepare for the shift. Our multi institution custody eliminates single points of failure and provides the foundation for secure long term Bitcoin ownership. We work with family offices, pensions and endowments through investment vehicles like the On Ramp Bitcoin Trust which offers security like exposure similar to an ETF but with in kind delivery, multi jurisdiction custody and multi institution custody allowing for direct ownership of Bitcoin. We also offer advisory services for institutions navigating this new asset class who want to avoid the pitfalls that investors have historically fallen into. If your organization is thinking about Bitcoin or already beginning to allocate, we would love to talk shoot me a note Jackson at on rampbitcoin.com or book a consultation on our website. Hope you enjoyed this week's episode. OK, we're recording it is another episode of scarce assets. This week we're joined by Josh Fair and my Co host Michael Tanguma. Josh, thank you for joining us. Just a quick intro in my words and then want to hand it over to you to give a little bit more context on your background. So you're the founder and CEO of Scottsdale Mint and the CEO of the Wyoming Reserve, which I did a little bit of homework ahead of this call yesterday. Pretty fascinating concept there. But I'm looking forward to diving into your professional background today spanning precious metals, but also the the Bitcoin space. I guess you think of yourself as a sound money guy, which I would say the two of us do as well. So thanks for joining us. Josh, how are you doing today? Yeah, thanks for having me Doing, doing, doing. Well, it's July here in Wyoming, A lot of rodeos, concerts. It's a good time to be, to be here and not traveling, frankly. I love it. Well, yeah, it's a pleasure to meet you. Excited for this conversation. We have a lot of people on that, you know, focus on Bitcoin and digital assets, but we have less conversations focused on the precious metals market. So I think this will resonate with a lot of our audience because as you know, it's just kind of a similar thesis behind gold, silver, Bitcoin, thinking about the fiscal irresponsibility of the government, geopolitical concerns, etcetera. But would love to just give you an opportunity to express more about your, let's say, core philosophy investment thesis around precious metals how you got involved in the space and that we can see where that takes us. Yeah, sure. And to make sure those watching that might be digital asset friendly, I am pretty much the opposite of Peter Schiff. So yeah, kind of, yes, definitely stay tuned to, to, to, to the chat today. Yeah. So I was one of the odd ones that originally wanted to go into finance, was an intern at Smith Barney when I was in college. And then 9/11 happened and ended up changing my major to risk management and then got into the, the brokerage world. And when I was 20, I think it was about 24 years old, I landed a billion dollar gold mining company as as as one of my clients essentially handled anything from trade credit to political risk to managing their their gold and movement of materials, solve problems, environmental things, all, all sorts of stuff, but solve their problems. And then got referred into other other mining companies. So ended up running probably close to about a dozen public traded mining companies, gold, silver, copper, and pretty much mainly work directly with the CF OS. And so I got to see kind of the, the, the hedging, you know, the, the, the capital deployment, you know, just just everything and really fell in love with metals. And that was this was this would have been pre financial crisis. So me and my 20s, you know, the only, the only crisisisawwasthe.com blow up, which which is kind of why I decided who's going to give a 20 something year old money to manage when I didn't understand, you know, as a, as a, as a younger, younger kid didn't understand the what I call the brick and mortar world. And when those dot coms blew up in, in O one, yeah, it was a, you know, pretty much a smooth sailing, you know, for, for the economy up until O 8. And when that crisis hit, I had an idea and it ended up implementing it and started what's now known as Scottsdale Mint in in O 8 started my my guest bedroom was essentially, I wanted to create a brand within the precious metal space that wasn't just chasing after grandma's money. Something that was a little bit more attuned with how things are, are, are done, done today. And, you know, Fast forward now, what's been almost 17 years, Scottsdale Mint manufacturers for 20 plus foreign governments, central banks. So we produce their legal tender, gold and silver coins. We do stuff for private banks, large private banks. We make anything from the investment grade product to collectibles, gifts, everything in between. And and actually later this year we'll be launching the HomeGoods. I probably, it might be next year jewelry where, where we just produce really anything to do with it, pretty much anything to do with precious metals. And my, my other company that you mentioned is called the Wyoming reserve. We're, we're, that is essentially A vaulting operation. So it's a, it's a high security vault operation that works just like the JP Morgan's of the world. JP Morgan is one of the largest holders of silver in the world. They have quite a bit of gold right next to the Fed. Then they operate that vault. They make money on 3rd party storage and then they take their, their assets that they also own and they find way to, to create business income off of that. So our vaulting operation is not to dissimilar from that except that we're an opportunity zone. So our equity investors in our in our stock get special considerations with capital gains potential tax free appreciation on on our stock etcetera. But we're also in a foreign trade zone. So our vault operation is actually not subject to tariffs. So we can bring things in that are being tariffs, store it in our facility. It could be held here essentially forever or or shipped back outside, outside the United States tariff free. And part of that vaulting operation is actually built for where where we're headed, which is as the real world assets go on to the blockchain. So that's been essentially a passion of mine for for a long time. I have held Bitcoin on the balance sheets of my companies for longer than Michael Saylor has. So I just don't use the debt strategy that he does. So I'm while I'm very much focused on, you know, precious metals is kind of the old, it's the old school. It's been around for thousands of years and it's it's not going away. I do think those that thought gold was going to go away, I think 2025 has signaled to the world it is now outperforming bond at bonds at any basically any interval that you look at. It's now beating almost most of the stock market over the last 25 years. And that's even with the S&P switching out. You know who who's in there in in their in their pool. So, yeah, I think, you know, over the last 17 years, you know, it was Austrian economics for those that paid attention to, you know, the Rodger bears of the world. You know, that's that's how he got into Bitcoin. I was not as smart as Rodger. I was on on a website and I was looking at the Bitcoin price. It was around a dollar and I was on the website looking at it and I said to myself, this feels like kind of kind of like Dungeons and Dragons and Magic the Gathering. It it just like this isn't for me. So I didn't I did not click the buy button. That was that would have been really good at the time, but and that's actually that that's for those that don't know that was that was kind of how that was the Bitcoin community. That was Mount Gox was was essentially magic the gathering guys that really launched a lot of these things. So it's very interesting. So I've I've definitely watched the evolution of I called the the digital assets, you know, the the thesis that you know of, of Fiat currency that no one even knew what it was. They thought it was a car only, you know, just seeing that evolve over over a long time. So that's kind of a really fast, you know, kind of quick overview and then we can definitely dive in into things a little further. Yeah, I appreciate you running through that and been super excited to have this conversation. I thought I was a little early to to thinking about the gold and Bitcoin not only trade, but how they're going to play out. But it sounds like you were way early, about 20 years early in the sense of there's a few themes you touched on. One is I didn't realize that's awesome about working with sovereigns on the legal tender stuff. I think there's a notion of in, in the Bitcoin space, people understand there's the right and wrong ways to do them and that are filled with counterparty risk. And I like in like Bitcoin is like accelerated business cycles because of not only, it's not really even the having, it's just that the fervor and animal spirits come in and there's no bailout. So you get to see in real time what are the right and wrong ways. And I think a lot of the quote UN quote gold bugs, I want to consider you that. But the folks that have understood you don't want like GLD, you can't take deliveries full of counterparty risks. And so people have been stacking, but that's been a smaller percentage and those individuals have understood what's best in class. And now the rest of the market is naturally going to have to figure that out because that's going to become like a core part of their portfolio. At least that's part of our like my personal thesis. And I think where you sit and what ties that all together is the notion and it's still, you joked about Magic the gathering. You can kind of say this is that's what's kept a lot of people out because a lot of Bitcoin people still act like, you know, Magic the gathering collectors in the sense that like a couple years ago it was 250 K Bitcoin had to get to, to, to hit parity with gold. Now it's, it wasn't, it was 500 K previously and now it's a little bit higher. But point being is like gold's not a magnet. And then Bitcoin just hits and it's like surpasses gold is foundational money for trade and has been for thousands of years. And it's kind of like nonsensical to think it would just go away. And I think a lot of the individuals in the Bitcoin community believe that. And I slowly started coming to this realization from a different angle, which was just volatility in old people. They can't just ape in the BTC and watch their portfolio go down 75%. And I started like pulling at that thread and realizing that this is just going to be tied together for a while. So yeah, they all of that just tying in too excited for this conversation because I think you other folks like Dan Tapiera, that came from the gold space and then we've had Ted Smith on as well. And Ted's interesting because similarly, he just looked at the world from a scarcity perspective. He was the CEO of Sotheby's and that was his notion of understanding Bitcoin. It's like if there's only 21 million and people are subscribing some value to it, let me just underwrite where there has to be some kind of sounds like that's how you first came in as well. 100% and, you know, and I kind of look at it like what, what is the obviously Bitcoin is getting its energy, its economic energy because people want to buy it. And, and I think, you know, early on, I think the, it's the thesis of why buy Bitcoin has changed a number of times, which can be concerning, But what continues to happen is people are buying it for different reasons. And now, you know, this, you know, in 25, we're seeing, you know, people are moving corporate balance sheets and they're adding, they're adding Bitcoin to it. And I think that's, it's not just MicroStrategy. There's others, you know, jumping in, in into, into the, into the mix. So when you look at, when you look at gold, you know, a lot of people think it, it's, it's like not even used. And, and we're not on a gold standard and we're actually in A50, just over 50 years experiment of not being pegged with, with, with gold for the US government. And you were not even allowed to own gold outside of jewelry. So you weren't allowed to own bullion, you know, pre, pre, pre Nixon. So Nixon caught it. So it was early 70s. So we're kind of in an experimental phase. But if you look at who is buying gold and this is where you know, where it's, there was a lot of people that bought gold during, during COVID, obviously. But I would say like the last 24 months has not been consumers. They're there. It has been the central banks. And so they, those are the groups that we are not allowed to know who are, who are the owners of them. I think some of us probably could, could, could guess some of the names behind them, but we don't know their full ownership structure, which is kind of interesting actually. So if you look at AML anti money laundering, know your customer, you know what that banks have to do. The only U.S. government and anytime a senator or congressman asked to audit the Federal Reserve, they're they're shut down. And so it's it's kind of interesting how, you know, rules for me but not for thee so or vice versa. So yeah, it's an interesting it's an interesting metric. So they are continually buying physical gold and put it on their balance sheets. So this is this has been the trend that really I think it really got kicked off when. And I think it was probably an error. You know, when, when, when the United States and the West seized physical assets from Russia and kicked them out of the SWIFT system. And So what we saw is even Europeans did that, you know, to Russia and, and obviously there's, there's understandable reasons, but when someone can have their basically a blacklist function on, on their their money supply, they're going to start looking for alternatives. And I think those that were watching China in particular said, hey, if that can happen to to Russia, could that happen to us? And so now you're seeing we just was this last week, the BRICS nations, they're all meeting and they're putting together a whole new financial system. Trump, you know, Trump comes in even before he took office. And I think it was right around Christmas time. He posts on XA warning shot to BRICS. Don't create a new currency and don't back it. He said back it. And a lot of people didn't even think about what is he talking about? He's talking about gold. So then suddenly he comes into office and then insane amount of gold starts getting imported into the United States. So, and I've been talking on on my ex, I started talking last week that the mineral war is on. Like it is. It is definitely on. And so, you know, Africa has pretty much been gobbled up by China. They're grabbing and a lot of people don't know there are rare earth primary deposits out there, but there's very few, but a lot of gold mines, copper mines. They also produce byproducts that could be a rare earth or all a strategic mineral. And so China has been sucking up a lot of, you know, resources that are needed. And I'm going to dovetail this into how it goes into Bitcoin and eventually energy and AI minerals are at the forefront. And I think we could, we could all agree whoever's mining Bitcoin controls the future. If you can't run servers and you can't, if you don't have the energy to power all this infrastructure, you're going to lose militarily. You can't control AI. This is why coal power plants aren't being turned off anymore. Now they're like, let's extend the lives. And then now suddenly, you know, nuclear is being being adopted again. And so, yeah, there's a, there's a major, major race. So you just look at strategic assets. We do need, we need water, water is not going to go away. We need food. We need. So you start looking at all these critical assets and into why. And so if, if we find something that replaces food or water, right, that Scarcity's supply demand curve changes. So this is this is what makes gold a big driver. Central banks decided to to dump it. Yeah, gold price is going to go way down. And then it's going to turn into. Is it just a pretty thing? We're seeing that in diamonds. You know, diamonds have not done well in the last couple years. And why? Because it's the real diamond. While it it might be somewhat scarce, it's a false supply. But now they've got, you know, the lab grown, which you can't really even tell the difference to the naked eye. And so now, like the Debeers of the world who kind of had, you know, called the control, you know, the diamond world is slipping and then less people are getting married and spending the same, you know, back in the day, what was that 3 three months salary is what you had to buy for your fiance or whatever it was that that world isn't really there. So we're starting to see that that price has, you know, waned compared to to to other things. So yeah, it's a it's these are interesting times. So I think when you think about investing in something, you don't invest in something for where it is today, it's where is it going? And so is it going to be adopted more or less in, in the future? And so when I, when I got into precious metals, I was already investing in, in mining companies. So I bought my first mining company. It was a copper, copper mining company when copper was $0.50 a pound. Well, now it's $5.50 a pound. So the same concept with, with Bitcoin, you know, in the future it's going to be really hard to own one it or it's getting harder today than it was a few years ago. So if more and more people are going to want to, you know, clamor and own, you know, a resource that that is, is, is limited in supply, it's a nice thing to own. And, and it's, it's, it's definitely a nice thing known. So I think it was we kind of look around the world, countries distrust each other more than ever. Citizens distrust the institution and their politicians more than ever. I think maybe a good portion of the United States had maybe more trust in the in the political system And just we've seen with some of the, I'd say disappointment around a certain case, you know, did someone die or not and why and all this stuff. I think people are going wait a minute and then, you know, Elon came in, right? He's saying we're going to cut and save, do all this. And then suddenly, you know, big swing over the last, you know, number of weeks where we can't cut our way out of it. So we're going to spend our way into it because that's that's not really an exit either. So suddenly this is where, you know, Bitcoin is we're at all time highs here, you know, and gold, gold has surged this year. Silver's now moving, moving up nicely. You know, even even some of the alts in in the blockchain space is starting to move because people are, I think, sensing the world of liquidity, the faucets about the turned off be turned on. So this is, I think it a very interesting convergence in into things. So yeah, there's not in gold, there's not many, there's not many people in it. There's not many that that do what I that what, what what my company does. And now tariffs are also here. So, you know, there's not many, there's not many mints, not many manufacturers of gold, gold and silver products in the US. And so some of that stuff is being tariffed even though there was an exemption, but certain fabricated products are being hit. So we're we're we've been hiring the last two months, you know, just to just to handle, you know, the in, in the inbound, you know, for contract manufacturing, for banks, for foreign governments and for, for a lot of things that that's going on. I think you're going to see, you know, there's no doubt within within the Bitcoin space. You know, I'm seeing there's funds out there. They're raising capital, they're deploying it into, you know, companies investing within, within this this sector. I think it's an interesting, an interesting time where I don't think our government is going to or governments, plural, any government's going to get out of this without being incredibly bumped and bruised and consumers. We, we have to take things into our own, our own decision making for, for our future. So whether you're 20 or you're 60 or anywhere in between or beyond, you know, you're, you are thinking about what is this world going to look like? Can I afford it? Nothing really makes sense today. I mean, even the stock market, you know, that was kind of my generation. I'm in my mid 40s now. You know, you would just, you just buy, just buy the stocks. Well, back a number of years ago was based on, you know, there was how do you value something price to earnings ratios and different all that stuff is it does nothing makes sense anymore. So, and now, you know, most of the stock market is driven by like a select handful of companies like NVIDIA, for example. So yeah, this is a, it's an interesting time, interesting convergence. There's a lot of unknowns, but man, is it also a time for, I think for those that are grasping it, not listening to the mainstream, they're grasping it and doing things on their own. It's also a huge opportunity to to to not only survive whatever mess we're heading into, but actually thrive. Agreed. Josh, you made a lot of great points throughout, you know, the past couple minutes here. One thing I did want to just dig into a little bit deeper is this concept of a revaluation that's under way, right? I think somewhere you had written about the rally and gold is not a hedge, it's a revaluation. And I want to tie this into a couple of the themes that you just mentioned, because as you know, we operate in the Bitcoin space and we have a lot of connections in the policy side. So we've we've spoken with policy groups and state legislators and there's, and even just with the genius bill today, right? And so there's a lot of momentum and I think there's DC. And then also states are starting to wake up to the fact that the US has a strategic advantage as it relates to Bitcoin relative to other countries and particularly adversarial countries. And one of the interesting stats behind that is about 40% of the Bitcoin wealth sits within the United States. And then a lot of the companies that operate in the Bitcoin space sit within the US as well. And I would love to get your thoughts on that. But then also just given your, your background for the past 20 years in precious metals, how do you think about the strategic advantage or lack of advantage of the United States might have relative to China or Russia as it relates to gold, right? Like, do they does the US have a strategic advantage there? Or are these adversarial nations better suited for a world where gold continues to be revalued higher? Yes, so obviously we we don't know exactly how much gold is in Fort Knox or not. Elon was talking about it. Even Trump and we don't know. I have my theories. It's quite possible some of it may have been missing lent out sold. My thinking is if you're going to bring up a problem to the public that no one's talking about, you're probably have already fixed it. That's, that's, that's me. But if we look back at the like the Bretton Woods, when, when we all when the world kind of went, you know, and, and created the World Bank, the IFC, the, the world of finance, the United States hold, I think at the time 2/3 of the world's goal. So that is not the same today. I don't think they have 2/3, but I believe they're, depending on what report you're looking at, stated they're still the largest. Now China, and again, I'm going to go with that. We know China has been a huge vacuum machine of sucking physical gold all around the world to their shores since then. I think that's why you're seeing Trump like kind of push, push the US forward. It really comes down to trade routes. You know, people say a lot of times people when they say, you know, the United States is not the policeman of the world, but I don't think people understand what that means. Yes, there's problems, but part of the agreements after World War 2 is that the US would would allow trade in the world. You know, why is piracy and why why do most ships are able to to sail free? Well, that's, you know, EU s s Navy plays a gigantic role in that. Well, there is problems out there for the most part. You know, the last number of years we, you know, trade, trade exists. You're we're entering a world of I would say we're being bifurcated. So Axis and Allies is being created. You know, you're either on, you're either going to be Team USA or you're not. And you're seeing that those alignments arranged. There's a lot of, you know, there's the BRICS organization, there's some that like India is one of those that's very aligned with the US. They also kind of fight China at the border. What side are they going to choose? So, you know, at this point where it's not a kinetic scenario, but we're we've been in a resource in a trade war and that's what tariffs are all about. We're upsetting the upsetting the system. And so when you look at gold, you say, well, who has the resources in ground and who can protect it? So we were just talking, I think offline before we got on, you know, in the news, you know, Barrick, which is one of the largest gold companies in the world, just had their resource pillaged. They had helicopters land. The Mali government landed and, and took 117 million in physical gold for them. Well, they're Canadian. I, I tweeted out on, on X. If that was AUS company, I don't know if this would have happened. And so this is a different way of thinking because there's repercussions, like if you kidnap an American, that's why American passports are more important than another passport somewhere because we're treated differently by other governments. They take our nation a little more seriously. Now I'm not saying look, bad guys are going to do bad things, but there's different repercussions. And so because of the US military presence, Canada doesn't have military, you know, of doing anything like that. So I made also a prediction that barracks probably going to move their headquarters to the United States. Why would you domicile in Canada? And so I just saw the news like a day later, they're looking at selling their last Canadian asset. So this could this be the start of it. So I'm going to I'll make a prediction. They're going to buy AUS company. They'll switch their headquarters to the US and Trump is probably their administration has to already be in conversation with. So you know, resources are but where I was getting at earlier too. When you're pulling gold out of the ground, there's a lot of byproduct of metal. When you're pulling out copper, there's a lot of byproduct, there's a lot of critical minerals like we always hear about rare earth minerals, but a lot of times it's just small, small stuff that there's no primary mine for. And so while China captures it, there is a big issue and I think regulation, it has been hurting EU s s resources. And so some of you on the digital side, under Biden, the US regulatory environment for blockchain assets was terrible, right? It was terrible. If you're a bad actor, you went to another country and you did it over there in the resource base. It's the same way. So let's say a lot of Latin America, a lot of Africa, U.S. companies and European companies can't directly touch those mines. So typically it's the bad guys, it's the cartels, it's the criminals. And a lot of that material ends up either in China or Dubai and then it makes its way to Switzerland. So who is sucking all that material out? And there is definitely a need for reform within the banking sector as relates to, to, to precious metal. So we're the gold, the gold and silver industry is regulated very similar to like to banks. So it's a it's a tough, you know, compliance regulatory. We're seeing this with digital assets has been treated at times terribly, obviously much better now with the new SEC chair. But and, and Trump, Trump's administration knew that, hey, if we want to be in the future, we, we have to make it. We have to make it easier. So I, I think you'll see a new mining bill out later this year in 25 to, to make resources flow better back to the United States to be held here, vaulted here, use for use for defense, used for technology. If we don't have, I think if Elon was on with us right now, he doesn't like to talk about silver because he needs so much of it for everything he does. There are strategic assets that the United States has to have if it wants to, if it wants to propel, propel itself into the future. So AI chips, all this stuff needs all these very expensive materials. If we want to launch into the hydrogen economy, you need Iridium, you need ruthenium. Where is that South Africa? Well, we probably want the United States, probably want South Africa to align itself with the United States as opposed to aligning it to, to, to the other side. So this is, it's going to be an interesting, it's going to be an interesting number of years here. And you know, I'd say the, the US seems like they were asleep at the wheel for maybe decades when China was going around cutting deals. They were doing airports, schools, building infrastructure all over Latin America, the Caribbean and, and, and South America in different places. And so they were getting, you know, sweetheart deals. And while the United States is not perfect, you know, I think we could look at, you can look at how, you know, maybe, maybe some of these other entities like China treats these other, these other countries that may not be the most ethical either. So I do think the United States is working hard under this new administration to mend old ties. We we saw us with Panama. Sometimes you have to use a little bit of a little bit more than just talk. It may have been like, you know, literally the military will be invading you tomorrow if you don't do this now. And so I think when Cruz went down there, Panama said it's done. We're we're aligning ourselves. So think Western Hemisphere is critical. So hemispheres are critical. So where, where all this ties in. If, if the US can lock down, this is no, This is why they're talking about Greenland. Can Canada become a state? You know, it's, it's a lot of it has to do with resources. And so if the United States, we may lose Taiwan at some point, you're going to lose probably a good chunk of Africa. It's, it's North, North and South America is, is probably the, the, the, the critical component. Europe's kind of not as important anymore. To be frank. They're kind of very dovish. They don't even know how to take care of their own citizens. They don't know what they want to do with their future. They're turning out, you know, Germany turned off all its nuclear power plants, lost all their industry and now they're now they've got huge problems. Meanwhile, France is pretty happy because they have their nuclear power. Poland is about to become the largest economy. The Poland's more aligned with the United States. So this is this is definitely interesting. And where all this ties into, we think about it too is like if we look at stable coins, the one stable coin that's kind of being kicked out of certain Western is, is, is which one that you're what, which one have you seen kicked off exchanges the most? Teller. Yeah. So this isn't talked about much. So then, what's the one that's being promoted the most in the US circle? USCC, Yeah. So if we start thinking about who do you think has the most tether and who do you think has the most circle, If we think politically, it's China. It's China on one side, US on the other. So this is part of this whole like bifurcation of the world, the the bifurcation of the world. Like what, what, what do you want, you know, to where, you know, tethers being cut out of, of, of the system And, and you know, so this is, yeah, it's, it's we're, we're leaving globalism and we're going into, you know, a, a much different environment. And I don't think people understand that fully at at a macro level. Like why, why tariffs? I and I my, my take on tariffs is Trump is also trying to get U.S. companies to get with the program. And so sometimes I can't, you know, he can't tell people exactly what's going to happen. But imagine if we can't trade with China at all at some point. So bring bring that inference back to the US. Yeah, bring your resources real quick just to double click on the tether. I think there's 2 components. 1 is, I think it overarching like macro level, there's just an arbitrage from, from free money or dollars into hard assets, right. And that's the game. I think it's been the game for a long time, but specifically the past five years, whether it's land, anything to do with land, whether it's energy or resources, gold, BTC specifically, and Tether, you can kind of look at them as almost like the Canary in the coal mine because what do they hold? I think a lot of people don't recognize that they have their treasury of Bitcoin. I think it's like 50 to 100,000 BTC, but they actually have 50 tons of gold and they're buying up not only land and acreage, but also like data centers. And so to go a little further, you said before the the chat, you had some thoughts on the genius bill that just passed. How do you see that plane? Because there's an interesting dynamic with Tether because what you said there is an antagonistic version, but they're also getting really close with the administration. Lutnick, they got a couple Spacks now going to be, you know, funneling those dollars into the, the equity market. So like, how do you see that dynamic plane? Because it's almost two sides, like antagonistic but also trying. They're trying to like, get their seat entrenched in the US financial markets. Yeah, while I am Team America, I think all of us could say, do we trust everything that every government bill does? And to me, if you just if we go back in time, if you look at how they name the bills, the Patriot Act, Inflation Reduction Act, it's like sometimes it's the direct opposite of actually what's happening. And so when you tell me this is genius and there's some great things in there, don't get me wrong, and I think it's going to pump some bags in there, but it also is going to benefit the old school banks of which, you know, the whole thesis around blockchain, crypto, Bitcoin, what the whole thesis is what? This intermediation. Is getting away, yeah, taking out the minimum between you and your money. And so while, you know, they're saying it's anti central bank digital currency, these are these are also currencies that have blacklist functions. And I don't know if people understand what this means is do you have a blacklist function on a $20 bill in your wallet? Nope. Do you have it on a gold bar? Nope. Well, digital assets, now they're all going to have blacklist functions. So which means they can be seized. You can't, you know, you can't. So every stable coin that's this is kind of the back door for I would call institutional control and then within within and then allow the old school banks that are so far behind guys like why shouldn't crack and benefit the most? I mean, Jesse Powell was the OG. He even tells people don't even keep coins that you own on my exchange, keep himself self cost. And then now we're hearing, Oh, put your, you know, you know, keep it, keep it inside, keep it inside exchanges, you know, for the other guys, it's and I. That makes sense. But but that makes sense. But curious where how do you reconcile that with because you can put like a blacklist on Bitcoin but you can't stop somebody from sending it or accepting it. How do you reconcile the stable versus with a Bitcoin custody like the? Interplay so you know, stable coins are it is the future because people need a place to park capital. So until until Bitcoin doesn't move, it has volatility risk. Now, I think long term that volatility is going to go down. We've already seen it and and it's also nice when it's volatile, the upside wonderful problem. But the reason that stable coins exist, you know, in particular, let's say on the east side is people need as they're trading, as they're buying and they're accepting payment. How does it, how does a shop accept payment in something that could drop 1020%, but the time they get to the office the next morning, it's difficult. So that's where stablecoins kind of come in on, on the currency, the money side of things. And so people need a place to park it. All that stuff's going to have blacklisted functions. So, so to your point, yeah, maybe not Bitcoin, but then they're, they're monitoring the on the off ramps. So that, so I also look at it from the construct of the stock market. Can you, can we, can I send you a share of Apple? Nope. I have to go through a brokerage firm. It's like, and then you start looking at retirement accounts. It's essentially a grand. Now it's not Ponzi like multi level marketing, but it if you really look at the definition, you blow it up and you go, yeah, if more people don't put money in and keep it in, then the other guy can't take it out. So, you know, if we look at the whole infrastructure of Iras 401 KS, it's all about taking that next generation's money and putting it in and put it in and put it in and put it in and hopefully, you know, it pumps bags and people people are able to sell out. So they don't like, I don't think they really like Bitcoin the way it was say a number of years ago, because you could go send in 100 grand to Coinbase or crack and make your transaction and send it out in minutes. Right, gone outside the system. So that's, I think what they're trying to do is figure out how do we brick this capital so it can't leave we can control. It I EE, TFs and and public treasury companies. I know Jackson's a place we want to go, but I want to call out one thing just to say is you can see your study of like monetary history. So you you, I'm sure you know this or read the book the Secrets of the Federal Reserve. And you look at the 1913 Act and it was literally the exact same, like they're the same bills because I'm going down this like rabbit hole looking at the Great Depression, the same bill, but they were just worded different and they push people in a certain direction. So after reading that, it's like I don't trust anything that's like putting. But so the reason I moved my company from Arizona to Wyoming was was there, there was a number of reasons, a lot of it, a lot of prayer looking for somewhere that's going to treat me well. But a big component was a foreign trade zone in the event that Smoot Hawley Act comes back. So this was 4 1/2 years ago, most people didn't know how to spell tariff correctly. So here we are. To your point, history doesn't repeat itself always, but it sure does, you know, sometimes look very similar. So here we are with tariffs back, back on the table for the first time in modern history for the US And yeah, we're seeing the same type of constructs. So the monetary systems broke. We don't know exactly what it's going to look like on the other side. This is the the World Economic Forum. You know, guys, you know you own nothing and you will be happy. We'll be on subscriptions and, you know, in the metaverse, you know, and it's. Jackson's a fellow, Jackson's a wet fellow. So just be well. Hey, maybe that's going to be great. So, but you know, a lot of us probably would say, yeah, maybe not so much. So, you know, I hey, I own metaverse real estate, but I also own physical real estate. I own physical gold. I have I'm I'm a, I'm not a maxi, but I'm a primary Bitcoin. But I have a few other technologies that that I like. I've got NF TS. So I've, you know, been in, again, physical art. I've got digital art. So, and some went to nothing, some have done amazing. So I've even had, you know, board apes. I've got pudgy Penguins, you know, and people kind of laugh at it. But I could liquidate it and I'm pretty happy with it. But you know what you have to be what I want to be a part of is I want to be part of that digital revolution. I want to understand, I want to win, lose bump my head, you know, have something work really great. Because if my company, if, especially if as a gold guy, if I'm going to talk to an artist that wants to put something on to the blockchain or work with with someone else, you have to be you have to understand, you have to understand at least some of it. And I'm I, there's a lot more I need to learn about, but you have to experience it. So as real world assets do get on to the blockchain and people want to like right now, I mentioned Iridium, that's a probably a very interesting metal that most people don't know about that's going to be part of the hydrogen economy. Well, how do you invest in it? You really can't, well, imagine if someone, something was tokenized, right? But someone's going to have to be the custodian, someone has to audit it. And so that's where, where, where our vault stands. And so we're, I'm essentially blockchain agnostic when it comes to 3rd party storage, but my fund going back to it as we raise, we raise capital, we're about to announce a second offering. I think it'll be $100 million raise that we're going to announce here in a few weeks. We, we, we can hold up to 10% in Bitcoin. So we hold our balance sheets consist of 90% physical metal and up to 10 and that's to keep our opportunity zone compliant. So that's that is what a pure asset like to own with with tax benefits. So yeah, we're in the space. We're in the space and you want to own things that that are rare and that people are going to want in the. Future totally agree and Josh want to make sure we do have time to cover more specifically around the idea of like what you're doing with the Wyoming reserve and physical vaults and you know why why investors from the sovereign level to the consumer need to think about that. I do I do want to touch on something though, before we get there that will hopefully paint the picture because you'd mentioned the idea about how, you know, the monetary system is deeply broken. I think that's something that, you know, both people in precious metals and you know in the Bitcoin space will almost always agree on right And one of the things that you know, we're paying attention to is that there's about $12 trillion of federal debt that needs to be refinanced interest payments on the debt, you know, as you know, greater than defense spending. It's over a trillion dollars annually. Debt ceiling raised for the 79th time since 1960. So the unit party just continuing to kick the can down the road. And I'm just curious, you know, looking through the end of this year and into next, how do you think about gold revaluation? You know, Treasury Secretary Besen has talked about the, and I think you mentioned as well just having to grow out of this debt problem and we'll see how that goes, right? But then he's also met mentioned Bretton Woods in a reordering of the monetary system. So I'm just curious like before we get into why physical ownership is important, because that's a good topic for us to discuss. I just want to better understand at least myself and I think the listeners will appreciate where you're coming from as it relates to just gold's role as a sovereign asset, a tier one asset on these balance sheets. Like what is that going to look like in the next year? Sure. Yeah. You know, in one sense people say gold is a fuddy Duddy. It's an old asset. But that's also what is so nice about it. It's proven, it's tested. So it's been around for, you know, thousands of years. It has, It's it's been the asset that settles war debt. It's, it's, it's an asset that right now is still being pledged and purchased at different banks as escrow, in my opinion, for future war financing #1 buyer of gold last year was Poland AT, and, and 1/3 of it's at the US Fed. Why is it not all in their country? Like, you know, if you look at history, it's, you know, for those that are watching game of ever watch Game of Thrones, the kings and Queens, they're all battling, but where do they have to go to get their financing? The Iron Bank. And it's a, it's a really good analogy when they walk into the room and they finance both sides of the war and the winner has to pay the debts of the loser. So that that physical gold's not going away. The fact that like not a lot of people promote gold like on TV, they'll talk about it real quick and it just kind of scurries away. Maybe they have a mining company exact on like BlackRock. BlackRock represents, you know, gigantic central banks. So do all the every major bank has a bullying division. JP Morgan is one of the biggest players in the world. They're they're not out there saying buy gold. They're not. I don't think they want competition. This is an asset class that's not supposed to be for people. If, if, if you kind of think of it that way and, and in fact, you were not allowed to own it for the majority of the of, of, you know, the last century. So this is, it's interesting to think like that. That's an asset that they, that they want to control and it will be used in it. And it's going back to my you know, you have to have a military, you have to have water, you have to have food, Gold, gold is not going to go away. It's just it's, it's, it's part of it, even though everyone has said it's, it's demise, but now, you know, gold, if we kind of look back since 9:11, it, it's kind of trading like a, it's trading a, it's doing better than almost everything outside of Bitcoin. So if, if we compare it to, I realize you can pick highs, but 90 plus percent of the blockchain space is garbage, right? It's, it's done nothing, you know, went way up and went way back down. Gold was like in the low 2 hundreds, you know, 20 just over 20 years ago. And now it's 3300. That's, that's a pretty good return for a boring, you know, low risk asset. And so I think I, I think you're also seeing U.S. states they're passing new regulation. But really too, if, if people are paying attention, we know you guys aren't, they're states are looking to hold Bitcoin on their balance sheets. They're also looking to hold gold. So the state of Utah, state of Wyoming just announced they're going to be adding gold. And you start looking at, and I don't have Utah's numbers in front of me. The state of Wyoming has, I know in one, one of their funds, they've got $30 billion in a trust and they run that like a sovereign wealth fund and then they take take those gains and manage it, manage their budget. And so when they say, hey, we're interested in buying gold, that's interesting. A little disclaimer, my vault is listed. We're publicly listed as a finalist with JP Morgan to hold the state's assets should more no more later the summer. But you know, I think states are, are looking saying, hey, I can't control the US dollar. But we're all we're all having problems almost every, not every dollar, but the majority of problems right now are all based on the inflation. They printed so much stinking money during, you know, especially during COVID, you know, and I think it was when you start thinking about inflation is a policy and we can't control it. It doesn't matter what politicians then it's just we just spend, spend, spend. And so I do think states are looking at least at a local level and saying I can't control the money directly, but maybe we can invest in different in different assets. So you're, you're going to see a movement of states to put together gold. More gold is going to be purchased and held on the balance sheet that that is something that's going to go up. Quick heads up for scarce assets listeners, we're launching on Ramp IRA later this week. It's the first and only Bitcoin IRA built on multi institution custody. That means there's no single point of failure, not one entity holding your Bitcoin, and no need to manage keys yourself. Historically, the options were either self custody, which could be risky over several decades for retirement, or a single custodian with unknown exposure and lack of transparency into how the assets held. We've built something better, a retirement grade solution designed for longevity, security, and Peace of Mind. If you want to be among the first to learn, Morehead to on rampbitcoin.com/research and sign up for our newsletter. We'll be sharing the full details later this week. Hope you enjoy the rest of this episode. Yeah, that just actually I hadn't looked deeply into it, but I pulled it up while you were chatting about Texas brings back sound money. It was effectively I didn't realize like the implementation was you can house the gold I think at the sovereign depository there in Texas and then ultimately like get issued a card to spend it. Now I don't know how much traction that'll get, but there's been to your point a lot of demand and interest from sound money across the board. I think there's what I'm curious and it kind of ties with Jackson was referencing about what you specifically do on the vaulting side is this notion of like repricing revaluation that we were, I don't want to call it a lie, but I guess it kind of has been a lie that people's wealth has been put into. You mentioned multiples in the equity markets and how they're defined the equity markets like that's a false construct when people say money's a false contract. I don't think that's necessarily true. I think there's a certain attributes or properties to make a good form of money and gold had it for thousands or has it. And then Bitcoin mirrors it when it comes to portability, finance, scarcity. And but we moved away from that for for a number of reasons. And I think that the market is moves with the sovereigns, right? They move with the powers that be and the powers that be that have ultimately started to reprice gold and the rest of the market will be catching up. But where I still don't know where that goes is how that integrates in a way with trad Phi and your traditional bank account, right? Because you can kind of glimpse into that maybe with Bitcoin and being able to buy spot through your bank eventually and then you can transfer between stables and BTC. But I think very similar is gold's going to play a role in that? Because it's again, a little crazy to believe the 75 year old or even 55 year old is just going to say, oh, now Gold's my savings account, I'm going to liquidate my, you know, a large percentage of My Portfolio from bonds or stocks to go into BTC for all the reasons you referenced with gold's track record. And so just curious like how you think about that and then how your business, but also other businesses like that are going to build best in class products? Because that's what I think what we do at On Ramp right now, like Coinbase isn't best in class if you're thinking about counterparty risk and ultimately have a long time horizon. No single custodian has lasted over like call it 10 years in the Bitcoin space. And there's a reason for that. And similar with ETFs, we know you can't redeem them. And so the market's still so early. They're OK with an omnibus pooled wallet with all this BTC. But we understand if you've been in the space, that's not really how you want to manage if you have material wealth. And I think that's similar to gold. Some people play around with some GLD. But if you're going to have a material cornerstone of your wealth, you want it in a secure way and love to hear not only what you do, but then how you think that's going to play out. Because I think we agree that's where the market goes. But there's a lot of education from going into overinflated 50X, you know, revenue multiple of whatever stock you want to pick versus holding sound money. Yeah, I, I'm not one to think that we're going to be using gold bars and coins at the grocery store. So I, I don't, I think it's the I look at more of as an underpinning of an economy, as a faith. Think of it as it is, it is trusted in an economy is what. And if we go back to you know, talking about JP Morgan here, if we, if we go back to the history, you know, before the before the Federal Reserve was founded, we had a lot of gold in the United States. And then there was a huge concern that the US was going to default. So right around 1900 ish right around in there, a lot of the gold, the Europeans were taking their gold back and there was a huge conservative default. Well, JP went over and convinced them to bring their goal back which and and underpinned it and and the US did not default at that time. If you look at the 1900, forget the the two the two people, the running candidates on the Democratic Party and the Republican Party. The Democrats were holding up signs. If you look at the you could get video footage and they're holding up signs saying silver, silver, silver. They wanted more silver into the economy for the people. Republicans were saying gold, gold, gold. They wanted more gold. It's more, you know, more, more at the banker level. And that was the biggest problems of the time. So, and then obviously the Federal Reserve was created not too far from there. So if we Fast forward, there is a need for, I would say it's a physical asset. One of the downside to gold is it's expensive, it can be stolen. Is it there? And so one of the themes I've been talking about this year is jurisdiction matters. Where do you own it? So most of the world's gold traditionally has been held at the Bank of England in London, all in one place. So you're seeing nations are asking for its gold to come back. And so they're repatriating gold everywhere. Venezuela asked a number of years ago, asked for their gold, and they said, Nope, you're not getting your gold. So that's in the world courts. So yeah, you can see where people do want their assets, you know, back home. But then we start looking at the vaults in the United States. They're out of insurance. So it's a little secret that no one wants to know. So a typical facility is going to cap out around 5 to 6 billion in coverage. There are vaults out there guys that have 50 to 100 plus billion in one in one location, which means there's not dollar for dollar insurance. Most most people will get an insurance certificate says I have it. But in the event of a total loss there, there's a problem out there. So there's a need for what I would say world class institutional vaults. So that's, that's where you know, when I, when I built this facility out, we still have more construction to go. Is, is having private vaults that have extreme transparency, third party audits. It could be visited. We've got, you know, metal detection and X-ray and armed guards. And we have all the, all the stuff that's even my ceiling. Everything is concrete. It's it's and you do that for insurance, you do that for purposes. So there's a big, there's going to be a big push for geographic spreading of, of the material out there. Just like you're seeing, you know, you know, even even your password for your wallet multi sig don't have them all in one location. Obviously you guys are in the, the custodial places. Don't have, you know, you shouldn't keep your coins on, you know, on a, on an exchange, you're exposed to their balance sheets or whatever. You know, FTX shared a lot of that issue with us. And so I, I, I see it, I see gold is kind of the underpinning of people's operations, the government's balance sheets. And then, you know, and then we're going to see, you know, Bitcoin is, is clearly playing a role and it's growing. It's you know what bitcoins over 2 trilling now. So it's going to continue to grow as another asset that's playing a kind of a similar role. So I think it all doves tails. So instead of taking Peter Schiff where I'm going to bash it, I made the choice years ago to saying, hey, you know what? I, I like it. It has the same thesis. I can own more than one asset. I don't have to be a maximalist on something. I can still be very passionate about one or the other. And at times on certain snapshots, maybe you're proven right, But we, we also don't have a prediction ball of, of what it's going to look like in, in in the future. And while, but you want to have exposure to the things that could potentially be really, really strong. Sorry, just to jump in, it's so fascinating because there's two aspects. Everything you reference about jurisdictional custody insurance, they're like mayor BTC, right? Like there's not enough insurance on any custodial exchange because they hold you know 100. You know, anywhere between 20 to 100 billion in Lloyd's is only going to ensure up to like 250 to 500 at Max because or jurisdictional stuff matters, right? If somebody's going to seize and that's where like El Salvador put their allocation, brought it back home. And then the point of underpinnings is still it's a little bit easier or it is easier to move, but it still has the friction point of how do you actually like create financial infrastructure. The other thing that, but tying into that, that you said was about what was the second part you, it was you were referencing, there's the jurisdictional, oh, the, the diversification. So you have, so you, you were referencing not being a maximalist and that's actually the rational thing to do. And it's an irrational. So this ties back to security. And the, there was a, we'll put in the show notes, but it came up I think 2 nights ago. Josh had tweeted about the, the country, I guess of Mali, never heard of it, but they had like literally took a helicopter in Africa and airlifted 32,000 oz. I think it was a ton of gold and this is $100 million. And I think this is something that we just fully don't appreciate for Bitcoin holders in self custody is that people don't recognize that people hold 10s of millions of dollars or hundreds of millions of dollars in their homes. And when they do, if they're willing to take an helicopter to take, you know, something that's very heavy like this is the kind of our our theme with the counterparty risk. But taking it a step further is it makes complete sense. We see this with very sophisticated, you work with them where somebody gets overexposed because of the price appreciation or whatever reason into gold and they naturally will diversify into BTC because of its properties. In the same way, OG holders that have held thousands of BTC will naturally diversify into gold because you don't want to get knocked out of the game. And that's just, that's just pragmatism. That's not like ideology. So it makes complete sense to have a, a portfolio, especially if you get older. You can't, like you're not going to go to the the bread lines if you like, lose all your gold you want, you know, God forbid something happens, you still have your Bitcoin. I am friends with someone like OG Bitcoin day one Genesis ETH guys, even though a lot of these people will, will, will say they're all, you know, a lot of people don't talk. They're what actually they're doing. But that's to your point. You always take something off the shelf and you know, and, and diversify a little bit. And I, you know, that could be, that could be both ways. And, and that, that is, that's, that is critical and that jurisdictional risk. I think you saw Kraken was in the news. They moved their headquarters to to Wyoming. Wyoming has the some of the best regulatory environment of, of digital rights in the world. And you're going to see there's going to be an announcement of someone gigantic. So Wyoming is going to be the block. I can say this confidently. It will be the blockchain capital of the United States. And I think the amount of energy and capital that's coming in here, the the protection against, you know, bankruptcy liens on for custodials is there's, there's so much legal framework of why you're going to see more, more businesses. Come to Wyoming, it's also that was one of the other reasons I chose here to say, hey, I'm, I'm a classic asset guy, but I want to work with these these other groups and and just be in a place where property rights. This is like Wyoming's old school. It it it's like going back in time and it just doesn't want a lot of people here. So they actually created the LLC Delaware did a did a much better job marketing it, but they copied Wyoming. And I think, you know, you saw, you know, like, like Lamas, you see in Caitlin Long here, you've seen, you know, that there's been a number of lawyers that are here that have really, really kind of pushed forward to say, you know what? We have to protect digital assets like like this, like physical properties also protected in the state of Wyoming. And there was a very prominent property rights case a long time ago that went to the, the went to the Supreme Court and it talked about that if you're not allowed to build a fence around your property, keep out trespassers, then you, you do not have property rights. And so they've taken that same exact construct and said the same thing to digital assets. And so we're, it has fencing. And so think even like something as simple as if you own a, a token on an exchange and you get an AirDrop. And if you're a resident of some states, you don't have a claim to get it. And if you're a resident of Wyoming, by law, they have to give that AirDrop to you. So these are the things that, you know, we're just facing the unknown, but where you are does matter. And I think that's, we're going to see that for a lot of reasons. You know, US has a lot of problems, but it's still the best country in the world. And in, in my opinion. And so I'm not, I will, while I looked at other places around the world for, I said, you know what? I'm not giving up on the US. It's, it's, it's going to be a rocky road ahead, but this is this is a, a great place to build and it's fun. It's fun to watch other people build as well. And, you know, just watch it grow. I mean, who, who would have thought? Yeah, I remember when Bitcoin hit 10,000 the first time. Now we're six figures, right? We're probably going to have that same look back, you know, perhaps with another digit at some point. So, you know, these are interesting times to to watch and, and frankly the same thing on gold. People don't really understand there's ratios of debt to how much gold is out there. It's, you know, my conservative approaches, it'll be 10,000 this decade. That's, that's what I'll say on camera. My off camera is much different. So. Yeah, I, I fully believe it. I mean, I think I'm not sure where you want to take the rest of the show, Jackson, but I do want to call out all this. The, the, the overarching theme is there's going to be like we're in a bull market for counterparty risk. And you referenced it earlier as distrust because there's just too much debt and not enough whatever you want to call the scarce asset. There's not enough dollars to service it. There's not enough gold, there's not enough Bitcoin. So at the end of the day, if you look at it from that lens, wherever the underlying sits is 10 tenths of the law. And so you want to make sure that you have eyes and you have it in the right place. And how do you feel about Wyoming is how I feel about Texas. And I we've adopted a lot of the stuff that Wyoming and actually the specie law around OCC and the underlying collateral to be used for loans. And Texas has picked up on a lot of that. And I think that's the beauty as you're referencing of the US is, is a friendly cooperation and competition because you can naturally see that proliferate in the States. And then that's where people's capital and you move with your feet and intellectual capital. And then that's how you can start to create different frameworks versus you have to leave the country. I think historically Wyoming and Texas have been it's Big Brother, little brother in in the energy sector. You know, oil, gas, uranium is gigantic in Wyoming, food, meat, beef, rare earth minerals, coal's the biggest coal state. So it's the second largest energy exporter behind Texas. And so I, I'm, I'm not just predicting, I know that the two states are, there's synergies happening and they're in there in the works, both, both on the physical metal side, but also on on the digital side. Because, you know, there, there's, there's states that are leaders and then there's states that are followers or they're just going to fall apart. I think, you know, we're seeing the state, you know, businesses are leaving certain states. And yeah, I think it's a, this is going to be an interesting time, you know, as we, as we go forward to say, you know, the, it's a, it's a good opportunity for the States and it's also attracting the talent, you know, can is the talent there. Obviously Texas just just pulled in, you know, Elon, you know, there's just huge things happening and you're seeing it in Florida too. So there's a lot of exciting things, I think within a few different communities that, you know, from talent to regulation and also just a will to say, we want, we want this type of business, we want this type of a thing. You know, Wyoming's doing a stable coin later this year. So you know, that's they'll be the first state to issue a stable coin. And so and, and people kind of go, well, why? And I can tell you why there's a distrust of the other products that are out there. And so if if you know, residents of, of whatever community need need options. And so that'll that'll be interesting as as we go, as we go forward. Totally agree, Josh, you know, we just have a couple more minutes here. We, we got to jump to another call, but I did want to just get your thoughts really quickly on institutional investor interest. So from what I've gathered on this call so far, it's almost a barbell in terms of you have at the highest level sovereign central banks that are doing business with you understand counterparty risk, want physical metals in their jurisdictions or want to store it in Wyoming for the reasons you described. And then you have, I would assume like kind of high net worth, ultra high net worth individuals. So we also made a point earlier that I thought was interesting because I saw this when I worked in the traditional finance base is that wealth management, family offices, institutional investors have largely ignored gold. It was never really like a core portion of portfolio allocation. You know, it was like maybe if you have a bearish or bullish view on a certain thing, you have like a 1% or 2% allocation. I imagine that's going to change dramatically in the next five years. And I'm curious if like you're starting to see that at all already? With, with without a doubt, we're seeing that that's a, it's a really good point. And even even this move that we're seeing in the last two years, the retail public is still asleep. I'd say some family offices are waking up some, some have had held gold in Switzerland in, in the past. A lot of that gold's coming to the US. So we're working with, with those types of groups. The reason I created the Wyman Reserve wasn't was as as as a stock offering that's being offered. So we're FINRA SEC, we're being offered through the broker dealer community is because there's very little optionality and you know, buying physical metal for those that understand it, it's very simple, but it's kind of like, it's kind of like buying Bitcoin for the first time. It can be a little, it can be a little daunting unless someone's walking you through it. So how do we make products easier so that, that, that, that company's really intended for high net worth. And so we're seeing it there or they want, they want the upside of of a company. So it's essentially a hyper between what strategy does and what an ETF does. We're we're we're AC Corp with tax advantages that makes that holds 90% of its physical as its balance sheet in physical metals. And we're mark to market every day. We strike a new stock price each quarter and then we can go up to 10% in digital asset. And so we've got a mechanical strategy of, you know, when we're holding Bitcoin and the idea is that that we're holding pristine assets and then we're also a business that can make business income off of those top of those assets, whether it be third party, vaulting metal turn, etcetera. So that is really intended for it's intended for the future. And and we saw in the big beautiful bill, they just made OZ's permanent, which is like, I'm like, Oh my gosh. So almost every OZ fund out there is real estate. It's not possible. And, and, and based on the the rules, you can't, you couldn't have 100% digital company in in and have the opportunities and benefits. So, you know, I see that growing the the the demand is going to grow because it's always been stocks and bonds at whatever ratio and bonds have been complete trash. So for for quite some time they're just in there they're and there doesn't look great. The last The last time we chat, I know we have to jump. The last time we chatted, it was the most fascinating, you know, capital formation I saw with your firm. I think folks should reach out, look into it. And then the other thing that you said, jewelry, I'm assuming something closer. Like I don't think a lot of people know about men A, but I, I tell the guys a joke around. I have men A just on me because if I were to get stuck in a country, I have, you know, some, some cash that's not cash. And I would imagine there's something similar. And that's such a great margin because they get to market up like 30 to 40% and then send it back. And, and they're, but not, they're not widely known. I would imagine you have some distro for that. Yeah, our, our jewel will be a little different. So we, we create so much metal scrap here just producing the bullion product that the big jewelry companies are that have to tell their shareholders their ESG compliant recycled goods. They are clamoring for us to produce things for them. So we'll probably do, you know, traditional jewelry, the investment jewelry, we'll be doing silverware that but stuff that looks good in your home today. Maybe it's art Deco or you know, has has a new, a new vibe that doesn't look like grandma. So really at the end of the day, we're we, we hold the metal, we move the metal. It's audited, we supply governments, people. We have a division that sells on eBay, walmart.com, you know, all sorts of places. And then we supplied, you know, hundreds of wholesalers all around the world. So really we're we're we're in the business and there's just spokes on the wheel. And yeah, times are, times are changing quickly. So it's going to be an interesting decade ahead. Awesome, Josh. Well, pleasure to meet you today. Appreciate the time. Where do you want to send people that want to get in touch with you? Yeah, check me out on X, Josh, Philip Fair. I'm on X, the two companies I mentioned, Scottsdale Mint is the manufacturing company. If you want to go to the wyomingreserve.com if you're an accredited investor and interested in the next offering or just just checking out what it is, we'll be announcing that here in a few weeks. So those are. Follow Josh. He he's a great follow. He had some awesome stuff about six months ago tracking where all this gold was moving around. So appreciate you joining Josh and look forward to catching up again. Thanks guys. Thanks. Thank you, Josh. All right. Thanks, Josh. Thanks for listening to this week's episode of the show. If you found the information valuable, please share the episode with a friend or leave a rating on your favorite podcast app. All the links we discussed in today's show will be in the show notes inside your podcast app. Before we finish, a quick reminder that On Rat Media is for informational and entertainment purposes only, and nothing should be construed as investment or legal advice. 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