The Last Trade E003: The SEC Crackdown and Why Bitcoin-Only

It's Jesse Myers with a background of Excellence there. In the in-laws this week and the the Boomers did well, which did very well very well. this is a a background that really exudes, the The Excellence were going for with this show. Got a big week big, big news week this week gentlemen I'm sure there's a lot of institutional investors and people thinking about getting into Bitcoin who are bit scared everything going on right now. That's why we do this show and this week, we're joined by Tyler Campbell from unchain kick up almost a capital, just unchain now. Yes. Yeah, just unchain. Thank you for having I'm beyond excited to talk about the slow news week. Nothing going on. So you know nothing about did that dive into it. There's a lot going on, Tyler, don't sell it short. You've got a lot to get through. You've actually got one of your threads that you wrote a couple weeks ago, about the inability of Silicon Valley to grok Bitcoin that we're going to talk about. But before we jump into the topics of the week and the chaos in the markets, particularly the crypto markets right now, Tell us a little bit about yourself. Tyler, what are you doing, Unchained? What is unchain doing? And and I think high level how are you viewing the events of this week from, from a nun chain perspective. Yeah, absolutely. So, Tyler Campbell. I'm a VP of concierge here at unchain, so I do lead our concierge team, the team of folks that I believe, as Marty said in the past, Auntie FTC will will completely take care of you. Sometimes will I will wipe your butt when it comes to setting up a multisig vault, but really, you know, our team is purpose-built to make people feel comfortable and confident in their Bitcoin security. So taking folks who either fits the first time holding Bitcoin with their own keys or if they've been using a hardware wallet for some years, but want to make the move to multisig. We really walk people through every step of the way that comes with a lot of Education as well. So been doing it for two years now, officially two years yesterday. Love. Every minute of it so far. Moved down from Minneapolis Minnesota to Austin, Texas to the Bitcoin capital of the world. And yeah, have I haven't looked back. Shout out to the Minneapolis Bitcoin crew though. Yeah. It's like from our perspective during times like this where there's kind of these shocks to the market and we've seen it over the past you know 48 months right? Going all the way back to like the block fi that FTX like there's there's things that happen and during these times of Chaos, EOS, it's really a. You know there's like a big Spotlight shown on why holding your own Keys is important. Right? The not your key is not your coins. Isn't just a mantra but it's incredibly incredibly important and so our phones are ringing off the hook and we're excited to help out hell, yeah, yeah, yeah. Tyler is excited to have Tyler. Join us this week being so close to the action with individuals when these you know, shocks to the system happen. Tyler and I previously working together seen the crazy inflows when you doing things the right way, there's a knowledge asymmetry and it starts to go out in the market as you wake up and find out your exchanges and let you take possession, you may not have any Bitcoin, actually sitting there. They may have a whole and so, and you Tyler probably been close to a lot of that, as well as being able to really talk through. And Marty mentioned it, a really interesting Thread about Silicon Valley and getting You know, Bitcoin, and maybe in the last that I think private Keys tie into that, because the idea of getting crypto, it's like, oh, it's fine. It's just another asset its own exchange. It's perfect fine. But the reality is, if you really going to understand what's happening here, you want to take possession of those keys. You want to figure out your custody model to have it more resilient than what Robin Hood would look like when you buy a stock or Bond and it just sits there. It's very different. And look, we like to say there's no bailouts in Bitcoin, so if you ever feel you can't print more Bitcoin if they're lost. And that's really the underlying philosophy behind it all. Yeah, it's like using Silicon Valley viewing crypto. As these assets that sit on exchanges, they can trade like they do a traditional stocks and bonds and other Financial assets. I think this week is particularly interesting because that is where all the focus is on two particular exchanges where a lot of these assets. It finance and coinbase. The SEC came out with Plaints against both, not exactly the same in each case with by Nance. I think the complaint is about unregistered offering, unregistered Securities commingling funds and then spoof trading as well has been levied against finance and then coinbase, I think the SEC is really honed in on they're staking service particularly in defining that as what they would deem to be a security. And so This is something that has been looming over the space if you will. And it's important to save like the space quote unquote because here I believe every individual on the show right now believes that there is a clean clean distinction between Bit Coin and crypto. And there's been a massive narrative battle that's been going on for the better part of a decade. Now within the space bitcoiners who are saying hey Bitcoin, It is where the signal is, everything else is somewhat of an affinity scam. In the exchanges, handling these assets and offering them to retail investors are number one. I would argue doing something a bit immoral because my opinion and I think objectively what history has shown us throughout the last decade is a lot of these assets are simply pump and up tokens that offer insiders quick exit or very. Very easy to dump on retail. And then number two, which is where things get a bit heated. And a lot of the, a lot of the contention on Twitter and online this week is stemmed from, is the fact that bitcoiners have been warning, these exchanges? Particularly like a, you're probably offering unregistered Securities to your customers. And at some point down the road, The Regulators are going to bring the hammer down and that is happened this week for finance and coinbase particularly, but this is a very big and Tangled yarn ball with a lot of nuance. Especially when you consider the fact that Bitcoin, a lot of bitcoiners lead towards a free market view of the world where people want to buy and sell tokens using their free will. They should be able to do that. But you have to Really separate that idea which I'm a big believer in if people want to go buy these assets and speculate on them, they should be able to do that. We have to separate that from the fact that we do live in a country with regulations with laws. May not like the laws but you can easily identify them and know they exist and point to the exchanges and say, hey, the SEC is probably going to come after you one day, they've been posturing. Like this for the better part of the decade and it's finally happened and it's created this massive contention in the in the space that bitcoiners are getting dragged into. That was a long diatribe. Just sort of set, the stage, Jessie will throw it to you. What are your thoughts on the se c--? S enforcement actions on finance and coinbase this week. Yeah so what you were just articulating made me think about how I like why why do these rules exist? Like why do why do we have the Howey test? And is there really any Merit to, you know, having classification of what's allowed when you're offering a security? And then you're making a distinction of what's not allowed and the reality is like without this without these distinctions, you end up with snake oil salesman, you end up with grifters, you know, promising the world and and Everybody that is foolish enough to believe them and you know, you can you can sort of imagine this happening. And in 1800s America people promising things that are not real and offering stocks and not read obviously not registering because because there was nothing to register at that point and that's what they're protecting against their, they're trying to make it so that you can't Can't just go trick grandma and and fool her and you know, investing in the next Google, when really there's no you're not going to do anything. So that's why we have these Securities laws and obviously, you could say like, you know, maybe maybe they do too much or maybe they're too restrictive, but the spirit of it is to like prevent grifting prevent scamming really and it's A sense. And that's what, the how we test is all about. And so, if you're running afoul of the Howey test, which is to say you're passing the Howey test because the Howey test is several tenants that, if you check one of those boxes, then you pass it because you are actually a security rather than not a security, and lo and behold all of these crypto assets out there, R are running a foul. They're passing the Howey test. And that means that they are really no different from some scammer in the 1800's promising, you know? Oh, I've drilled of drilled oil wells in in Texas, and you can invest now, and, and be a millionaire when actually, there was nothing and they were just scamming turns out that Century later that Crypto assets are spiritually similar to that kind of situation and that's obviously problematic for for the good of American citizens and not acceptable as a result of that. So you know that it's I think it's helpful to take it back to like what are these rules trying to protect against and then recognize it. Like, if you are triggering one of these classifications, Then then there you know it might be problematic for the good of America for the good of American citizens because you know, you can't promise the world and take Grandma's money and we don't want to live in a society like that. And yes, of course, there's ways in which overextends or goes too far. But the spirit of it is important to remember here. And and like when you think about it, Krypto, as, you know, the latest snake oil salesman Frontier. I think that's helpful, for me, at least to put it into perspective about, like what do we need to protect against as a society as a civilization and thankfully I, in my opinion, that's you see, is finally drawing that line. Yeah, well that brings into question something else to which is those in the crypto industry. Coinbase finance and others are basically coming out say hey, we've been asking for guidelines. We've been asking you SEC woman knocking on your door, been reaching out saying, hey, what do we need to do to be within compliance with the SEC to make sure that were above board and doing everything by the book in your eyes, and they would make the argument that the SEC hasn't really put a good foot forward. In terms of providing that guidance. That these exchanges, deem is necessary to operate within the letter of the law. Also, they're making the case that due to the lack of guidance. From the SEC, they've been sort of forced into this position where they're not in compliance. So they would posture that they've been sitting in limbo, begging for guidelines and rules that, that haven't been give it to them. Is there any Merit to this argument? In your opinion, Michael? Oil. I think there is I think that there's like an underlying fundamental issue with like the regulations the bureaucracy and the politicians, they all kind of like intertwined together and it's actually there's thinking about it at least for me it's the most fascinating part about all of this is How they can't get their shit together. Basically, on like a lining on, we know the SEC. And the cftc is basically at Arms to figure out who can govern, what? And what is a commodity, what's a security? And we know genzler, in nineteen at least bindings. His lawyers are saying that Gensler. I think was on the docket or requested or there was some discussion about become an advisor for my Nance. and we know, you know, to take the extent of Silicon Valley back into this or bring them back in is whether it's a 16z or we all remember that episode with the all in group and the getting in early on the pre-sale Salon Solana and dumping that the at the upper echelons of the like economic stack, they figured out a way because Venture already in itself has been like this Bucket or this whole of capital that's calling from sovereigns to you know, to effectively Venture firms and then to retail and, you know, this continue up, the stack of marking up prices and where's the exit liquidity coming from and that version of the world, basically found it on in crypto. And he found a way to basically Mainline that old product into this new crypto fast, know, within 12, 18 months, get early presale, Zelda, Zelda token don't bond retail, get your dollars, give it back to LP rinse and repeat. Pete. And part of that felt like that gave the cover for the past few years. Well, the marketing everything's up into the right to be able to whatever is done whether it's, you know, handshake deals or whatever to get the politicians, the, The Regulators everybody looking the other way. But as we know when the tide goes out, we find out who's swimming naked. And so while we're finding out exchanges or insolvent and people are bankrupt and all the things going on from the like mechanical sense of an exchange. There's also like on the regular side and who's getting paid and who's getting No, their hands Greece and what's happening there. And so it's kind of just it's more of like a fundamental issue with the US and everybody not necessarily being on the same page. I'm like what's actually happened here and everybody wanting their own stake of. How do they govern it? How who is regulated? Whose tax? And so I think it there's two parts of one. It's very difficult to build in the space and that's where, you know, we come at it from the angle of Bitcoin, only a commodity and all the things go along with it. But then, there's also just Macro structure of like American politics and making it very difficult for what is the individual? It's looking to build a productive business or asset and the amount of red tape that has to come through because of all the other things that go along, which similar to this agains are looking like the White Knight. But then we find out that he was trying to you know work with Finance all the way back to 2019 and was sending them. I think there was a he went I think I want to say the Senate he went somewhere in DC and basically gave Finance or CZ. The heads-up of the whatever was explained to them before he even, but I think it was like to audit or say get your feedback before he went. So there's a lot of that and I think it all kind of intertwines to your point that there is some fundamental truth to they haven't been clear and it's created problems but at the same time I think that all of these groups would have claimed something to just be able to Continue to dump was effectively their bags on retail Market. Yeah, in my opinion, everybody's wrong here. Like the SEC, like you mentioned the SEC, the cftc have been fighting over who gets to regulate all this stuff and they've been opaque in a bit slow to move. Probably on purpose to get get these exchanges. And these token teams in this precarious position, where it looks like. The SE C's hand is forced to come Regulate but they sort of let this go on for so long without providing Clarity that they are to blame to a certain extent and then on the other side with the exchanges and the toking offer and offerings. That's I think that's what gets bitcoiners the most mad. Because like I said, earlier bitcoiners, do believe in free markets or I'm not going to speak for all bik winners but there's a large subset of bitcoiners who believe in free markets and if people want to make these decisions speculate on these assets, they should be able to To do so, with that being said, there's also a moral argument on the other side, if you're going to offer these tokens. If you launch these tokens, if you're going to put them on your exchange, there's somewhat of a moral burden that comes with that as well because as we know on this show, you don't really need a blockchain for anything. In fact, blockchain I would make the argument only works for money and if you have Bitcoin working As well as it has for the last Fourteen and a half years there. There simply is no, neither other need for blockchain. And that's the thing, I think frustrates. A lot of bitcoiners is a lot of these tokens again, our Affinity scams that are selling the world, but really have no fundamental reason to exist. They are not necessary to perform the function that their marketing that they're performing. We've had many waves of these These assets, whether it be back in 2013 to 2014, the the early proof of stake coins, the multi script algo coins that came out and then in 2017 you know the icos that came out of recovery company needed. A token associated with it and a blockchain predominantly running on a theory. Mm. And then you get to 2020 2021, you defy the Ft. Boom. And this is all culminated in this enforcement action that we're seeing This week from the SEC. But at the end of the day, these tokens I would argued do not need to exist. They do not provide the utility. They say they're providing. They are inherently centralized due to their issuance and the concentration of the supply that exists in a small group of hands and the ability to change these protocols on a web in that. So that that's like the weird sort of conflict that bitcoiners feel is Yes, they believe in free markets but they also want to call out scammers when they see them and that's I think what a lot of bitcoiners view the the crypto world as is a bunch of scammers just trying to grift to get quick exit liquidity. So they can get rich and wipe their hands clean because that's what history has shown us. There's very few tokens outside of Bitcoin that have really stuck around and actually operated for longer than five or six years at the rims. Probably the only But even that comes with massive problems, they're they're trading. Their narrative on the go, not a flip it to Tyler. Is there anything yet to add to this? No, just to go up your point. It's like the, you know, that's the Bitcoins marketing department, right? Is kind of moving in the shadows because you take people who let's say Gen-X husband and wife couple from Virginia, right? And they got into the 2017 crypto Bull Run and we're buying He token that would go up but then over time it's these news headlines that are coming out about everything Bitcoin. It's, you know, these ticker symbols in the litigation that are everything but BTC it is aetherium roadmaps containing technobabble that these people just don't understand. And so and a long enough time Horizon, I do think things Converge on to bitcoin. So, you know, it's like all of this stuff regardless of SEC or the safe. See, it's like it's we're going to win on a long enough time scale because these projects are shooting themselves in the foot and you know, I think that's that was always going to be the situation. I'd love to rely on people doing their own research and finding out that a certain token is really just a landing page with, you know, 20 year old CEO who stands to gain a bunch but people just don't take that dive. So I think part of the answer is just going to be, you know, a slow bleed and and time scale necessary for people to find that coin. Yeah, that's actually one of the things that I, when I was referencing about the, the battle in the cftc SEC, there's the last component that I think adds to the underlying mugginess of it is the politicians not wanting to legitimize it. And so there's a recent bill that came out between McHenry from Montana Thomson Hill that the net of it, is that the CC would oversee anything. That would be deemed a security and they have obvious, you know, test for that and requirements on the digital asset side, and then proof of work /, you know, BTC on the cftc and give a clear delineation, but there's a direct quote from there. That says, one of them was like, let it burn and the other one it was a, it's all, it's all bullshit from the, from the Montana Democratic senator, Jon Tester with the idea that they do not want to Provide Clarity or a framework for individuals because you can imagine a world like that. To Tyler's point, if you had a clear delineation yet understanding that one is a commodity, one cannot be created by individuals manipulated and all the things that go along with it. It kind of takes some of that murkiness out of understanding what you're buying or at least what you're not mine. So I think that's just a comport, a component important component to recognize as we go and we have these discussions and kind of ties into some of the stuff we plan to talk about. Tyler's thread and Silicon Valley. It's like, you know, fundamentally understand what's happening because of that, they maybe not their fault, they just don't know the difference between, you know, token that screw tomorrow and Bitcoin these at the same. They're looking at it as a digital currency or digital asset. Yeah, I'd love to build on that to of like, coming back to the Howey test of. Maybe I have a little bit more appreciation for the spirit of the Howey test, then then the average like Bitcoin maximalist. Because so that was, that was from a different era of like that was from 1946 and the, how we test the, it's kind of incredible that the Howey test catches No assets in the wrong and for that matter, that Bitcoin was quite clearly deliberately designed to not run afoul of the Howey test. Because if you, so let's look, let's talk about what the how we test tenants are, right? So it's an investment of money with an expectation of profits. In a and it's an investment of money in a common Enterprise. And profit comes from the efforts of a promoter or third party. So, you know, when you think about aetherium, you've got a leadership team, a core group of developers that have a pre mine and their efforts are going to generate, you know, a brighter future for aetherium and drive the price up and, you know that Video of the taluk talking about how their efforts are going to cause the price of aetherium to go up over time. So that's a security right there and even though the how we test was made in 1946 and you know, obviously before the internet before any of this was possible or conceivable it was designed in an era. When like frankly, I think that lawmakers were were acting in the honest interest of Citizens, a little bit more than they are now. And I think it was a well-designed test to catch shit like aetherium while allowing for something like Bitcoin. Which, when you go through those four tenants, there is no expectation of profit, and I think Satoshi, quite deliberately stepped back and part because, you know, people weren't profiting off of his efforts, or you know, any core group's efforts. I mean, buddy, who Any kind of pre mind there was no pre mind, you know, you could make the argument that Satoshi was there and kind of advantage to to mime from day one because he knew about it. But, you know, that's as strong of an argument as you can make. And then he steps back to ensure that there is no expectation of profit based off of his efforts. And so you know, the contrast between etherium as representing all of altcoins all every other cryptocurrency. Ides Bitcoin, basically, and Bitcoin is completely Stark in terms of the Howey test. And so in that sense and we've gotten increasing Clarity from Regulators that Bitcoin is a commodity and nobody's coming after Bitcoin. We we have these quotes from Gary Gensler and the head of the cftc saying that saying that Bitcoin is a commodity and as for everything else You know, Gary Gensler makes the case that everything else is a security cftc. Had says nobody's coming after after Bitcoin. So Bitcoin is a commodity but everything else out there. Is a security be so long as so long as they have a team working on it, trying to catch up to their competitors, which is everybody because everybody is behind from Bitcoin, everybody's trying to spin up a narrative trying to out compete based on technological innovation while not realizing that this is actually about money and, and immutability not about Innovation and change. And so by that, very nature, since you have a team, trying to work on something and trying, To drive the price of the certain coin up and their their War chest. Their bankroll is rooted in the pre mine of their own coin. That is a security and it's Crystal Clear to bitcoiners because we've spent time thinking about this but most people come into crypto and think. Okay, so Bitcoins around and it's been a loud and all these other things are around and they've been allowed so I guess they're all good. And you know coinbase offers them in coinbase has a Super Bowl commercial so how risky could it really be? This is all on the up-and-up and and people aren't realizing that this is a bunch of entrepreneurs or or grifters or scammers trying to create a currency that they control and sell it to people and there's a lot of money to be made there. So people have acted first and ask in are asking questions second. And that's how you grow a big company. Like coinbase turbine ants in the matter of a few years by creating this casino for people to get rich and trade and most people get rekt. It's on the, on the margin. It is a is a net destructive Endeavor, for individual wealth. Whereas Bitcoin is designed to be different because all you have to do is hold for four years. And your purchasing power reliably increases. And so for everybody, in Bitcoin it's been quite clear for as long as I've spent time, thinking about, like, what, why is Bitcoin different from the rest of these things? And, for most of the world, they've been sleepwalking into this trap that they didn't realize. Had not yet been sorted out and I think we're entering that era of a reckoning for For unlicensed, Securities in the digital asset space and it's over. Do you know you can, you can call it status. So you can say that the SEC doesn't have a role in anything and we should have purely free markets. But, you know, I think the spirit of the Howey test is is in the interest of preserving Grandma's dignity, rather than allowing her to get scammed out of all her money and And I think that that hammer is finally coming down now. And you know it, you can see you could easily make the case that it's silly for us to be rooting on the state here. But I think it's it's routing on the the enforcement of Level Playing Field and and putting an end to the exploitation of the rules as they They are, so it's time and it's I think it's finally here. Yeah, it's that. I mean, I Trend more towards, like, the free market stuff, like, I don't like the SEC. I don't like the government. I don't think they're efficient, I don't think they're and I should, I should add that like, the spirit of the 1946 stuff. Like, I think it's, it makes sense. And over the decades, we've crept towards an increasingly like overreaching version of SEC and Regulators in general. So, you know, That has become more of a problem versus the original intent of it. And that's, that's the nature of the state, right? But but I see the purity of it and I appreciate it for that but it has its major problems in terms of enforcement. Yeah, I think there's a good opportunity here to provide some back story on how finance and coinbase. The two exchanges in question this week. Got to where they are two very different stories. Art with coinbase because it's older. I mean, coinbase started out as one of the first consumer exchanges consumer apps, where you can easily go and buy and sell Bitcoin. It was first place, I bought Bitcoin and it was an incredible product. In the beginning when it was simply you can buy and sell Bitcoin. It was the best way to get on board it on the Bitcoin. And at that point back, then, 2013 2014 Brian Armstrong seem to have really gotten Bitcoin, he Sure that Bitcoin would scale the side chains that all coins. There's Tweet back in the 2015 or 2016 where he said all coins are if any scans we should be focused on scaling Bitcoin via side chains in other layers. But somewhere along the way, I would, I would I believe the pressures from The Venture capitalists backing coinbase, things got corrupted and they saw. I would call the siren calls of the fees and the profits that come from enabling The trading of old coins and they went down that road where they essentially became an altcoin Casino obviously coinbase IP owed a couple years ago, a few years ago and has been somewhat of an above the board operation. Since its Inception back in 2012, its vc-backed came up in Silicon Valley. They really example of American innovation around Bitcoin in a A that that came up in did things above board to a certain extent. Comparatively when I say, comparatively compared to buying an swear by Nance, essentially filled the hole that was created when bitrex I believe or Palani X which were to altcoin exchanges back in 2016 2017 they were forced to add KY caml restrictions and so in the wild west of altcoin trading I'm back in the 2013 to 2017 era. The trend was that you would have an altcoin exchange pop up and they would allow you to trade without any kyc or am L compliance. You would simply put in an email address and you would be able to load your account up with Bitcoin and then trade into altcoins without giving the exchange. Any of your personal information in the way it worked was a new exchange no kyc a mellow pop up. It would start out with relatively low. Look, Today and low traction. But eventually everybody would flood to that exchange. And then once they got to a certain point of popularity, The Regulators, they would draw the ire of regulators. And the regulators and say, hey, like, you need to employ kyc a male compliance, start taking information on your customers. So we can, we can track them. And soon as that would happen, people would leave that exchange. Another would pop up. And so that's how by Nan started when bitrex, I believe. Earp Lonnie x, one of those two thrusts kyc, KML on their users by net sort of filled that void in came up as the exchange, no kyc, a Melody income trade here, without giving your personal information to us, eventually, they reach, massive scale. They're one of the biggest exchange is probably the largest Exchange in the world. They have since added kyc a male compliance, but I think they are the exchange that bucked. The trend of sort of seeding. The no kyc a mill exchanges in their wake. I think it got to a certain point in 2017 where Regulators were all over it. And I think Finance was the last one through the door that was able to accept themselves with no KY caml. And they've since grown to a massive exchange and they're extremely popular all around the world. And so that's how we got to where we are with these two particular exchanges. Going base, was the Silicon Valley, Ali consumer-facing app here in the US that blew up and made it very easy and then probably got corrupted by The Lure of profits from the fees that would come from, allowing users to trade shit coins in the by Nance sort of Rose From the Ashes of Palani acts and bitrex forcing kyc a about on their users. I do you think there's a there's a fascinating Thought on the there's very similar if you think about like what we're talking about offering of Securities and bucket shops and you know all this stuff. But I fundamentally think they're different businesses from a like efficiency standpoint and the entrepreneur like I would say that cz's, 100x, entrepreneur than Brian. And from the number of employees, the amount of Revenue and net profits, all the way down to I'm pretty confident, especially in the The Bitcoin space people understand sees a capitalist and he knew exactly what he was doing and he was playing within within a world. That was, it was great and it was it, right? People lost money. But if we go to the other side where I like chalk, the coin basis and block size of the world, I fundamentally don't think they have any idea on what one what they're doing to what were the space or what is actually happening. And you can go back to you know Brian being at Airbnb and the aside. Idea of growth at all costs and top-line revenue. What is the look like? And so that thought of, you know, we need to add tokens and we needed to spread ourselves too thin, and you think about, you know, their market cap compared to the number of employees there. It looks very similar to an Uber that is just an unprofitable business and you think about it, how insane that could be to be an unprofitable business to be the first exchange the largest and all you had to do. You could print money and for some reason they do not and then you go over to see Z and you watch and see what they did. And like you mentioned From the Ashes and produce this, you know, what was the number like 8 billion? I think that was like rumored to be moving around and like I think it was over a billion like net, net profit, in 20, maybe even higher than that. But the core idea is a that was with like I want to say five hundred or thousand core full-time employees so it's just an interesting Dynamic on. As you think about the entrepreneurs build in this space as well, block, line coinbase feel very different than then finance and Just how they their approach, this whole Market. Yeah, well finances is essentially employed the the pirate mentality there, like a pirate ship of a company and as the SEC levied in their complaint like like Finance has many offices all throughout the world I think they're domiciled officially in Singapore and so they do operate in this gray area and within that gray area they have it's hard to confirm The people have been speculating that they've been doing pretty pretty like questioningly their dubious things where they're be washed rating. They have their own token BMB and there's a lot of speculation that they're pumping the volumes to that to make it look like there's more activity going on there than there actually is. And So within that gray area, there are certainly using the levers they have at their disposal to just sort of pump. Metrics and pump markets and drive. Look what he's a lot of speculation, but I think it's speculation. That is that is pointing in the right direction towards towards some signal there. And it's a little more than speculation to because there appears to be like quite a shells company structure with Finance where CZ holy controls some subsidiary companies that are creating on Handsome like it's really reminiscent of FTX and Alameda and the connection between those two entities. Wear SPF was a 90% owner of Alameda and they were using FTX with with unfair advantage in terms of not having liquidation rules and also seeing order flow in real time. And in order to trade against FTX is customers the same thing appears to be happening. Opening with Finance at the direction of CZ the CEO. And so that really is kind of pirate, marauding buccaneering and, and taking from customers, which is how you grow, a very successful company like that in such a short amount of time in in this gray area of what's allowed and what's not. But yeah they the the level of Sketchiness between by Nance and coinbase is pretty Stark. Coinbase appears to have really just been offering products that the SEC is is deeming, security are deeming securities and that's a long list of pretty much everything that's on bitcoin. Whereas CZ has been engaging in Sam bakeman, freed Style. Catchiness it appears that that is speculation at this point, but yeah, there are different world. I mean I would push back a little on the like one to be clear. They're all like shit heads and they're all taken a bunch of people's money and like that. There's nobody didn't know. I'm more of like a Target as far as like the level of sophistication from a pure like entrepreneurial /. Marty mentioned Pirates and like pirate is generally looked at as Bad thing and I would make the claim or thesis that in the future world more. People are going to look like this easy model and not to say the sketchiness more of being everywhere. And nowhere, at once, being able to leverage at scale growth and number of individuals, you think about coinbase having the Stanford or whoever, you know, person coming from their school, and their pay them x amount of dollars to sit there. I think it was rumor, their Chief product officer got paid fifty million dollars, like that was nowhere near how CZ skill on the other. ER side of that. It's the little known secret that all these exchanges, all know that they're each wash trading or summer wash trading to keep the volume on others. Very similar to, if you've ever heard the rumors of like tether even when they didn't have it fully collateralized, it's in everybody's best interest to pretend. Like it is fully collateralized because all of these exchanges that's like they're they're you know, in and out mechanism and so even if it's at like 90 percent 90 cents on the dollar it's in nobody's best interest to bring that up. And so I think like, for sure, it's this easy versus FTX is starkly, different music. They didn't have any money, finances, still processing withdrawals, the trading against I think that is again, going back to the beach. It has in, this is just like how they make profits, but I don't think like coinbase, they know that Charlie Litecoin, you know, rug pull that happened and what was that 18 and then we know, you know, whether it's like open sea or these other, I think open, see the guys went to jail but I think It even came out with coinbase that before they listed. They can show there was reports run on the pump and the token so like I don't know you know again they're all shed but it's just like coin basis is in my mind no better than than Finance bad to my mother actually worse because they just like pretended to pay off the politicians where you had this other guy just say, like f it, you know, I'm going to use the tools and things that I can do, and I'm not gonna like bend the knee and we all need this. Is coming. You know, Matt talks about all the time. It's like you know sees he's just riding around out there and so yeah I would I would I would agree with that because it's also really prevalent in the marketing for these two firms, right? You go to like coin basis website and it's their tagline right now. It's it's a you know, the future of money is here where the most trusted place for people to buy buy and sell and manage crypto. They're like you know, Google meta tags that are if you Google coin basis, like by crypto would trust, right? So they're kind of like layering this this veneer of almost masquerading as this really trustful institution and not as basically a crypto Casino. So at least, you know, again to Michael's Point like they're all shit heads but at least by Nance appears to be a little bit more and I don't want to use this word to the full extent of what it means, but a little bit more honest with what they're trying to do. It she go to you go to buy an ant's and it's you know, trade like a pro. It's like, all right. Well, at least you're telling us what your What you're offering instead of putting on this this mask of trust? Yeah. In one thing on the like mac side of that in this is something I don't know if we talked about and it wasn't really. A parent was a Gemini that was like the epitome of what was the slogan like institutional. I were like regulate us or Regulators hard or whatever it was. But they, they they have a crypto needs rules? Yeah, cryptic Krypton. He's rules in the, in the week of I, this is again ties into. I don't know if we want to get To them this poverty. I thought it was very like awesome framing that Balaji had with Marty on red blue and gray because I like I can just like like everything I've had that without having it heard in my mind. When you look at an individual like red blue gray, and I would say, CZ, gray, Brian Blue, Max blue blue with the check. So just like and the the idea is like the Winkle. Why? The complete blue like they got Bitcoin. Only like, just like just like Chum other whoever, but they didn't actually understand what was happening Bitcoin. So they played the game and trying to get the ETF and trying to do it. And then they rub themselves because they offered a burn product, and they try to legitimize it and had all these financial advisors using them. And then they put all their clients funds in Genesis and now their financial advisers can't get their clients funds in their ever supposed to be playing on the up and up. Until this point at least likes, easy was like a trade, 100x, leverage like, you know, use a VPN like, yeah, of course. It's sketchy. But, you know, you're getting rubbed and get rug in the business. The most beautiful part about all of it. Nobody's ever not been able to take their Bitcoin off of Finance in its it just made me think of it reminds me of it. Maybe say never. If they haven't halted withdrawals, they've slowed the process down by like forcing you to redo kyc a amount. So there but mainly like they have Bitcoin like they at least to this exact point. They have Bitcoin in a reminds me of bit but Max like bit, Max had. And this is the beauty of this ties in with next, it at the right. Yeah, that makes it the right way three or four, multi say you needed three everyday they process it with process withdrawals. All the way to like Arthur being in handcuffs at one of the other guys like being and house arrest and they could still process withdrawals like pure pirate. Sure. Maybe you shouldn't be trading but they did what they said they were going to do. Yeah. It's a really good point of like there's there's legality and and being a pirate. And there's also an element of like entrepreneurial hustle and like Building a business through offering things that people are one in terms of products and like, Arthur and button CZ have done that exceptionally well. So there's there's legality, there's entrepreneurial hustle and then there's deception, which I think you guys are right? The coinbase has subtly been the worst of the bunch, like, in terms of deceiving people, and, and misleading people into believing, they're there at the trustworthy source of information and Reliable trustworthy place to come in and get exposure to this new asset class. When in reality, they're no different because they make their money by people chasing altcoins because the more you trade, the more trading commission coinbase and all these other companies get and your you guys are right that the coinbase was deceptive in what they did in terms of trying to encourage that when when you've got a bright Ian Armstrong, I found the Tweet so it's one of those unbelievable tweets. That is worth articulating variant. Put in the slack so you can throw it up. Okay? Here all a route. Tweeted it out yesterday. So I will put it in the slack here. Hold on. But it you know this is from 2015. This is February 2015. And in Brian Armstrong's mine, it was clear. It was already clear that. You know what? Our who's the winner here. It's it is Bitcoin and that's deadly. Over and done and we should focus on bitcoin. So I sent send it to the slack. And here's the quote of this is Brian Armstrong tweeting in February 2015, Ripple stellar and altcoins are all a distraction Bitcoin is way too far ahead. We should be focused on bitcoin and side chains. And I feel like so often when were complaining about coinbase as bitcoiners people say, Oh, those are just the salty bitcoiners like, oh, they wish that that people hadn't moved on to, the more exciting altcoins that are out there. And, you know, they want, the focus is still be on bitcoin. But then you see a tweet like this from Brian Armstrong in 2015. He got it. He understood, you know, there was a reason why he was early is because he, well, he worked in Argentina for a little bit. And so he had experience with, you know, seeing how Now, that Society had been terribly damaged by inflation and and therefore the value proposition of Bitcoin jumped out at him, you know, we all have some reason some mixture of reasons why Bitcoin makes sense to us. And so, if you're in Bitcoin right now, you are early and there's some combination of factors from your life. That has resulted in Bitcoin making sense to you before 99% of the world. And that was true for Brian Armstrong because he had this visceral first-hand experience of seeing the damage of inflation. So he got Bitcoin and he and he was excited about Bitcoin enough to leave his job and start a company selling Bitcoin to people. But then the profit motive of, you know, what, it's great when we sell Bitcoin to people one time and we Take a 2% cut which is what they take. They take a 2% fee. What? Every time you do anything on on coinbase it's great. When we take a 12 percent fee one time selling people Bitcoin but it's even better if we can get people to buy that Bitcoin, take the 2% fee and then encourage them to explore. What else is out there? Because there's so much exciting Innovation and you might want to hold some Ripple, you might want to have some Litecoin and every time people jump around between These different assets. We take a 2% cut and that profit motive crapped in and changed changed. Brian Armstrong, from from being someone, who was a Bitcoin Enthusiast who was trying to help people get exposure to Bitcoin in in a regulatory compliant way and and frankly, a great user interface through with coinbase and that warped into, you know, like all these These platforms a crypto Casino where they make money when you stay at the table and so, yeah, you guys are right that, that coinbase deceived on a different level than then B, Max or Finance. Did I do think there is kind of a spectrum of the potential degree of P, legality of activities between, you know, FTX at the Extreme because there was literally a 10 billion dollar fraud, but they perpetuated perpetrated. And on the other side is coinbase. Who I think has been trying to do things within, you know, what's legally allowable because they are kind of the the Silicon Valley version of a crypto casino. But of course, they've been deceptive in terms of what they've been marketing. Ooh, and then the middle there is finance who has been that, you know, you kind of admire the buccaneer spirit and and the entrepreneurial chops. It's unbelievable. What Susie has built, but very much in a legal gray area in end trading against their own. It appears that they've been heavily trading against their own customers, which is not cool, but it is not a ten billion dollar Ponzi scheme like f, Ex did. Yeah. And we're talking a lot in the context of coinbase of it, being the Silicon Valley darling and being one of the Darlings in Silicon Valley comes with a lot of pressure from the capital providers backing you in the Venture space and I guess is a good segue into the thread that you wrote that we mentioned earlier. Tyler about Silicon Valley, not being able to grok Bitcoin and obviously Jesse you wrote your, your inability, the yuppies and ability T to grok Bitcoin. A few years ago that turns 3 in August, but Tyler, I think is a good time to really turn to like, all right? There's coinbase particularly they're definitely getting a lot of pressure from their backers saying hey look at all this out here like why are you focused on bitcoin? Only like you need to add all these coins is what is missing? What connection is missing for your typical, Silicon Valley, venture capitalist or entrepreneur to really Croc Bitcoin. What's going on here? Yeah, I definitely recommend, you know, listeners go check out Jessie's article about the Yuppie Elite misunderstanding or failing, to crack Bitcoin as well. Puts a lot more eloquently, but I was trying to convey in my Twitter thread is that, you know, I think it's all deeply rooted in just trust in the system at the end of the day, but that thread was inspired by a Memorial Day weekend that I spent with close family members up in the Midwest. And, you know, my uncle's great, you know, great guy really smart. You know, kind of a beneficiary of Silicon Valley success over the past 20 years. And as brilliant of a guy, as I think he is whenever we engage in conversations about Bitcoin, it just doesn't guess Inspire him as much as if I were to use. You know, the d word democratize Finance with a dow or some, you know, crap like that. That's what would get his attention. Instead of talking about, you know the most powerful. Money that the world's ever seen in Bitcoin. And so it's like I wrote the thread kind of thinking like what are the top three reasons why folks like like my uncle ironically named Uncle Sam right? Which I thought was kind of interesting given that the third point and my thread is politics in America but the three reasons that I boiled it down to was one. Bitcoin doesn't have this this one Durkin founder, founder type that it It's so much different than your average Airbnb or like yo, classic Silicon Valley darling child unicorn. There's no team, right? It's this open source. Ethos with cypherpunks and it's open source code. And so that's like kind of one thing. There's no Paul Graham mentoring, a y, combinator Bitcoin project right. Then for the second reason was it's just apathy right? You know if you were a Silicon Valley Elite and you are you have a cushy A check and you really don't need to think deeply about protecting yourself from inflation or how argentinians can you should be able to save their hard-earned Savings in a currency. That's not perpetually. Devalued like if you just don't have to face these problems and it becomes less of an issue for you. So apathy there's no founder. And then, of course, politics in America, right? So looking Valley is the bluest of the blue when you're reading the New York Times every day and this again Ties back to Marty's episode with Balaji is like, if you are being fed this information every day and all of a sudden it's not just food blogs, or travel blogs. It's like constantly jamming information down your throat about about Bitcoin, where these, authors at the New York Times, don't actually do their own research. They don't put boots on the ground. They just kind of write about what they think about. You combine all that together, and it's just this stew of a complete misunderstanding. But then you look at the coinbase, kind of the, the In it. They kind of the Bitcoin presence in Silicon Valley is coinbase. And I think the deception we were talking about goes a layer deeper because as soon as your coinbase and you start introducing all coins because we have that profit motive now, you know, you were inspiring, these Stanford graduates in 2017. 2018. These brilliant Engineers to work on. What's, you know, a project that's going to get, hopefully listed on coinbase, right? It's like, you are a completely altering. And dismantling, the incentive-based Ace of these kind of bright minds and Silicon Valley, and just poisoning them from the beginning. So whether their intent is malicious or not, doesn't matter, coinbase set the precedent that, hey, you can buy and sell crypto assets and there's Dao's or democratizing finance. And while it might be on the on the surface of it, a really lofty goal and something that a young entrepreneur wouldn't want to inspire to really they should be focused on building a Bitcoin and learning the lightning Network and Bitcoin wallet software and contributing to open source. And all of this stuff was put by the wayside because of kind of this this profit motive that was a, you know, thrown in the face of Brian Armstrong in the team. So don't want to go in too much of a diatribe there. But yeah, in to piggyback on were Jesse was coming from on coinbase and some of the like just not manipulation but just kind of misdirection and then what Tyler just reference, we're not just speaking ideologically like Cuz I think it's important the framing in a sense of like it is a from a practical long term low time preference. If you're looking to build something sustainable the focus on bitcoin going deep going their own. You think about what unchanged done River firms that are looking to build things the right way. There's so much of an attack surface from a security perspective from the tooling from the things needed to be developed. The only way to really do it properly and do it, right. That's a long-standing from Away from the people that you hire all the way to the tech is, to have a singular focus and in the products around it, and it may not come at the exact speeds of a block 50 recording, bass, or others like an fbx or by Nance. But at the same time, it only exists on a spectrum and at some point you know the rubber hits the road where the SEC comes knocking or the The Firm blows up because you're trying to grow your topper and Romanians, you're not cutting you not stop loss in on risk management. And now you're, you know, you're bankrupt. And so there's this real like practicality and and that's where like, I think the big, the Silicon Valley and this goes to do it again. The gray, blue and red. It's like there's this world of the Silicon Valley or the coastal wheat. They're not worried about money like that. From the core sense of like their own money like a Latin American country or emerging market that has bad money. So that that's not the angle, the other ink. So the angle there come at is from either the tech How to make more money, how to make the riches and so Bitcoin will there, it's already late. How do you do that? If you're not the one company around, it was like, okay. And you see to Tom's Point firms work for coinbase. And this is like, the next thing, which is the whole idea. If the next thing, whether it's like, AI or crypto, whatever it is like, that is the mindset. And not actually understanding what's happening. And so, like, the amjad of the world, they have a lot of respect for Somebody like that because he lives in that world but he also is an independent thinker and he's come to it on his own side. As he has a unicorn company, he's building in this space or outside of Bitcoin, but he understands the gravity what's happening with their coin. So he's looking to bring that into his firm. So he's using the mindset of first principles growth within reason, building a sustainable business and also understanding what Bitcoin is going. And so I think we'll see more of that. And that's one of the most exciting things at least some on my site. For like, the next decade is that Instead of understanding like thinking independently along with building sustainable businesses, I think will be very interesting. Yeah, I mean, this goes back to the perverse incentives and that's, I think we should feel. We don't feel for quite Miss, but like, a lot of these perverse incentives are sort of ceded by the capital Behind These companies, like the Silicon Valley, be seized the, a 16 Z's of the world, the Sequoias Paradigm, whoever Or it may be like the again, like, we discussed earlier the ability to deploy capital and get a liquidity event in 12 to 18 months with a 10 to 1000 x is extremely appealing to the to the venture capitalist out there. They're able to get these quick returns return money to LPS at significant multiples, and it's a great for them, the LPS, probably love it. And they probably making a lot of money, but in the long run like we're seeing nothing has staying power. And so, The moral question leaks and like, is this a good way to make you righteous? And then on top of that, the incentives of provides for the companies and this is why 10:31 exist is we've recognized that sort of Disconnect in the market where there's a lot of companies that would like to build on bitcoin. Only would like to focus on big go and have that narrow deep understanding and stack like the rivers, the Unchained of the world. The mining companies that exist out there they're really focused on bitcoin. It would there's many Teams like them out there that would like to do that. But cannot get the capital because the capital comes attached with strings, which are you need to offer these other tokens that are going to provide revenue for you. And so luckily over the last three years, particularly that trend is beginning to change. We've raised a lot of capital and deployed a lot of capital at 10:31. There's other funds, like, ego death. That have risen, we got Trammell, we got TV, be still Mark. There's a lot of Bitcoin, Focus Venture funds that are that are coming. And raising a good amount of capital and going to the founders saying, hey, we're not going to attach those strings to this Capital. We get Bitcoin focus on it, build out the ecosystem and that is why we call our our funds low time preference, phones at 10:31 and because we do believe that this is going to take time, but it's all it's like a marshmallow test. You're going to eat the marshmallow now like a bunch of the Silicon Valley. VCS have done with their quick exit liquidity or you're going to wait for twenty marshmallows down the road when the Open. He's that you're investing in have built out a solid foundation in layered stack on top of the Bitcoin Network that is going to drive a lot of value. For those companies in humanity, more broadly, Yeah, I just thought it was like these people hate you. I don't know if it's that far but that's what made me think of like Frederick. So you mentioned Paradigm friend, when they went public, he sold two point 1 billion dollars worth of shares at the top. And then recently obviously Paradigm, you know, pivoted to crypto /, AI or whatever the term is like the next thing and because those it those that's as close to being inside as you're going to be to know that. Like okay, this is hammers coming. We have a lot of dollars to deploy so we got to figure out what the next thing is. Sorry. Yeah, I want to build on what Tyler something, Tyler said they're like like coinbase, really created this incentive for, like Stanford. Young Engineers to get completely on the wrong track from the get-go and and has diverted so much, human capital and energy and potential building. Away from Bitcoin or other productive things and into the next altcoin, pump and dump and that but that makes sense. Because like when you think about the cantillon effect of of, you know, when we're printing money, the people that benefit the most are the people who are closest to the money printer the financiers. So the cantillon effect is money printing, quote financing, the financiers and That means, you know, whether that's direct stimulus of creating money at the federal level or whoever get has access to loans and you know, M2 created through Commercial Bank. Lending that is who can get the most juice out of a out of a monetary expansion Trend and the people in the world who have benefited the most from that. Have have been Silicon Valley venture capitalist. It's just that they are, you know, at the the most extreme end of that effect because they're taking on, you know, they're getting all this. This money pumped into them from the big Pension funds and endowments and whoever's trying to get some extra extra returns in their portfolio. And then they're, you know, getting Pumping that into the next. The next technology startup that they think can grow rapidly with with leverage and and that's the whole model and the Venture capitalists get to benefit from that immensely and so it's no surprise that coinbase comes from that world is part of that world is an is a great enabler and fuel for that that cycle. All of the cantillon effect coming to crypto and and finding a home in crypto. You know. Like let's make the next let's print the next type of money and will keep 20% of it and we'll hype it up with all of our accumulated, power, in Silicon Valley and all the connections we have and we'll dump it at the top and and rinse and repeat. A 16z is done awfully awfully. Well with with that formula and Chris Dixon is in my opinion, one of the worst actors in the space as a result of that incentive and the money that he has been able to make by playing that Playbook. And, you know, like we have to remember that Silicon Valley is not just an outcome of Technology, it is an outcome of Fiat. Money to and those things have converged to create, some great products and benefited the world in big ways. But it can also misfire and that misfires when there's this, this sort of incentive that that, you know, is in the Wheelhouse of what venture capitalist like to to do and see. And it just happens to be at the expense of everyone who falls for the marketing of, what's the next Bitcoin. You know. So coin basis is kind of the Public Enemy Number One, despite the fact that they have in my opinion, been the least criminal in their activities, they have, they have been the most deceptive and the most plugged into that, that Silicon Valley, ethos that is all about. Let's find them the, let's juice returns because it's a formula, that is Isabel in the Fiat era and Bitcoin phi's against that. And so, you know, part of what was hard about coming to bitcoin for me was was I went to Stanford and got steeped in that whole, ethos of innovation and leverage and you know, everything about Sandhill Road where all the Venture Capital firms are located and Bitcoin is the opposite of that. Is it is low time preference. It is savings rather than leverage and it is not about Innovation instead, it is about better money and that is outside of the Paradigm of what Silicon Valley thinks about, because you don't ever conceive of the possibility that there could be better money. Nobody ever talks about that, and nobody really understands money, so you don't, you're not not even asking the right question of what is money. And what? It's good money. So I think that, you know, it's interesting that to consider that coinbase has been a great source of evil in poisoning the the direction of Silicon Valley and and so many entrepreneurs that could have been building on bitcoin and instead are going through a painful journey and will eventually find their way to bitcoin the hard way. The way most people do. Yeah, like to say, what Venture capitalism is, you know, probably more accurate description and Venture capitalism, right? It's like printing uh, you know, printing money does not produce value and it's just, you know, and printing money means printing tokens, does not produce produce value, it's all the same thing. Yeah, I think they ties it in like the the sand like constrains breed creativity because if you think about it and should have before and it's just like the river. Opportunity cost to Capital, we talked about this. I think on the first episode is what like, Jesse's alluding to. There's like the secret. It's what's known as like, and SoftBank wanted to invest in in a firm. They would go to them and they would go and some people take it and others wouldn't, and before they went to take it and say, well, hey, if you don't, I'm going to point that the money candidate at the other company, and they recognize that like, you know, if they weren't, it was basically existential because if they got that Capital, then they were able to grow faster and so It's a reality of the game that's been there but it's also reality of we understand, you know in Jesse knows better and can talk to a better than anybody is like, the math doesn't add up and so the dollars were at a certain point will end the Bitcoin will exist and when you want to build a business, There's real opportunity cost in there. And it my background who are really went down, the rabbit hole, is that we work and it was read the Bitcoin standard. While realizing we were living the Bitcoin standard in the sense of misallocation of capital building buildings that were never going to be, you know, Which we did exactly that. They're still building all over the world that never knew were completed. Let alone. People said, you know, got to cut off his face and and it's not to say that it wasn't a good business or a productive business because it was it just was in the multiple was not what it was from a venture perspective. And so, they'll be real opportunity cost for somebody to give you their Bitcoin to take an equity stake, you know. Just look fundamentally different. And I think it's in the best interest of everybody to understand it sooner than later, especially on an entrepreneurial perspective because When that's recognized, then you start to look at the world in a different lens of like, well, what am I using my time? How am I thinking about growth strategy? Because that world will come sooner than later. And even if it was just a dollar roll for the next 10 years, it still makes sense because the back end of it, you end up with a zombie company, like we've seen once the cost of capital, you know, increases and but it will happen, Bitcoin, really money. And that whole world will change. And this is like, part of these discussions or to start thinking about that, or at least. Something gets part where you start going down that rabbit hole because nothing that we're saying or specifically this is for, this is just how things were when we had a form of money. That could not be printed. It's really just been so far removed from that and we grew up you know with a dollar that has really a relatively little meaning. And so this is this is the State of Affairs or in right now. Yeah. So to tie up the topic of the fcc's enforcement or their complaints against by notes and coin. Bass, let's go around the horn. What do you guys think is going to happen? What is the outcome of this by Nets and coinbase pay fine go about their way. I I saw an interesting observation that it's is in a way. It's a little unwise who the SEC decided to go up against because the legal teams for these two companies have got to be the best in crypto and they're going up against the SEC. Educators who are not known for being the best litigators in town. So it's a little bit of a David and Goliath situation in the in the way that you wouldn't expect because coinbase is going to be stacked you know, on their legal side. So I think that the SEC you know I think they have a case and they will extract some sort of concessions or victories. Yeah, but I wouldn't be surprised if coinbase successfully stands their ground in the big categories. And when it comes to by Nancy, that's a much more complicated case. Because, you know, like the biggest crime that coinbase has committed, as far as I can tell is is allowing customers to purchase. You know, Securities into that are staking, you know, and providing yield and that that Pretty, clearly runs runs against the Howey test whereas finances done, potentially is quite a few Shady things. So I you know, I don't know what the outcomes will be. I think that it won't be as clear, cut of a victory for the SEC as as it appears, it should be. And I do think that an outcome here is, you know, you end up with another FTX. Our offshore company that is, that is finding a way to serve US citizens illegally and that that this problem just pretend continues because you can't really stop that as quickly as you can stop coinbase from from doing it because they're domiciled in the US. Tyler. Yeah I would I would kind of I would think that while there's not a clear-cut win for the SEC or the exchanges. In this case, I would say potential outcome could be financed, u.s. gets gets may be obliterated, the ICC chalks, it up is a huge win, but I do think given the entrepreneurial Spirit of CZ kind of what we were talking about. It's like, you know, it'll be another Phoenix. It'll it'll exist somewhere. On the coinbase side of things, I do kind of think that as much as I would hate to see you know a commemorative nft be the way that you know they've proposed a fight. These these battles I think the point about like having a strong legal team is there, there's arguments that, you know, they were allowed to go public and so there's like these it's going to be a long drawn-out battle. So the end of the day, I do think coinbase will still be around stock price might tank. Hopefully there's a little bit more disclaimers they have To throw on their website and so just labeling themselves as a place of trust but like this should be we as bitcoiners should be. Looking at all. These events is not like let's sit back and grab the popcorn and watch what happens. We should be like. Okay, let's double down and education efforts, and try to help the people who are currently at funds on the coinbase and finance, right? There's nothing that comes close to holding your own keys and that should be Paramount. So that's what that's what I'll continue to do this. And everybody on this call is going to continue to do and we're going to win. Yeah, I think I think that's exactly right. I think the term that came up with this phrase. It came binds, the Trap has been set. The theme within, like the Wall Street circles and it may be public. I don't know if you guys have heard it's like s everybody's on the sto or used to be called an sto I don't know what is it called. Mallory was a security token offer and or whatever and it's like now it's like tokenizing you know whatever. So you got that that that's coming we got like probably you know so there's that I think about regulation around He's like critical defy protocol so like, you know, swap or any of these things that they're going to, you know, just set the stage between that we sto and in cdc's we're seeing with Jeremy a layer and circle. That is going to be the hey, bend the knee. We don't want to stifle Innovation, we don't stifle Innovation. So let's work within the framework that we establish everything. Oh, thank you. We're appreciated. Because at the end of the day, I think the thing that IG and probably all of us like don't A fully crashes were so far as a purpose of the show is like, so far on one side of understanding, what's happening? That it still seems Foreigner and saying that all this stuff can actually be zeros, like just completely zero like now, you know, use like hedge and say 99% or Securities, like they're all secures their all created by somebody. Like if nothing else wasn't creative individual and can be changed the monetary policy and so I think between you get the regulation or the framework around it for me it was easy. Does liquid single United States? Because he's just gonna Be a pirate. Do whatever you guys so you get SEO Zen like okay. Well we know there's Innovation on Securities and token offering whatever they make up there. We get D Phi because you find makes sense and its innovative or going to regulate that. And then cbc's, and we're going to get Capital just going to droves. But the reality is, we all know that with a click of a button, all of that gets stuck there. And so the point of all this is we discuss Bitcoin, we help people take the Bitcoin off of the exchanges because a she and, or reduce the counterparty risk and Yeah, I think big fines will be paid finance will get kicked out of the US and everything will will will persist. But with more regulatory scrutiny named strings attached from DC and that in I mean, that's another big question bitcoiners like you said, Tyler, I don't think we should be sitting here with popcorn or laps even though we've been predicting this and telling the people in crypto, like, hey, they're going to come down on you. I don't agree with the SEC. I don't think it. Should exist. I don't agree with the Securities laws but they do exist in the SEC does exist. And what you're doing is going to draw their ire that has happened, we've been Vindicated. But with that being said, I don't think they stopped at crypto like I think I don't think they like Bitcoin. They like really don't like Bitcoin because Bitcoin is the one they truly can't control and is truly out of their grasp of control. And so while we're Mo, many Bitcoins are sitting around bra bra like told you so I told you, so ha ha Like have fun staying poor like know that like this is going to be used as a precedent where everything gets hyper regulated and becomes very sanitized and sterile in the crypto world, then they draw their ire, at Bitcoin. We had a glimpse of this with Gary Gensler. 'S comments earlier, this week, when he said, we already have digital currencies, we have digital dollars, we have digital Euros, we don't need and another digital currency while he didn't name Bitcoin. I think that was like a canary in the coal. Mine of them setting up for the dollar, is the digital currency that we have. We don't need Bitcoin. And so, I think this is just setting the stage for protecting your posturing like they're protecting retail from penny stocks in crypto and then once that's done, all right, focus on bitcoin. This is digital currency that does not fall into what we believe should be a digital currency. One thing you said, Marty that we've been talking about we chatted with Larry. It's like I think more and muniya killed for this is we should be aligning with gold with gold a lot more than we are. Like, if you think about, you know, the Texas will is it sexist thing of know like infringement or like it was something about that coin that recently came out in a positive light, but I think we're back to 2014 Kyle bass. Brought you tend Guns, Gold bullying down to Texas from New York and had it with the setup. Basically a sovereign Texan depository where the gold It's aggregated. They can view it any think of like aligning with which are referencing if you can you can play in the crypto world and you can play with the thing that has been recognized and has been established from whether it's being hold being held as an individual or being held within, you know, a sovereign or nation-state. I think there's there's something there that will offer some like protection in the sense of like, hey this is this is gold but it has the ability to be transferred or Seamless. So anyway, those are something that came to mind of like, has that happens more and more. There's some coverage there. I think we should play into. I agree. I like our gold bugs. I like Google Books, we line philosophically on many things, we just need to get it up, get him over a couple humps. Agreed. And I think, I think to that point Michael, I think we're in a bit of a Race Against Time here because Regulators are current, or as Marty was very rightly pointing out. Like there's an order of operations here before they can really circle the wagons and come after Bitcoin. Meanwhile Tick Tock next block like Bitcoin keeps doing its thing. The next having is coming. The adoption curve keeps going We keep getting more powerful people on board to, you know, the value proposition a Bitcoin. Whether the, whether that's people in Congress, presidential candidates heads of energy companies, who are looking to monetize their stranded at natural gas or other resources, and the more we can capture the minds of those people like Like plant the value, proposition of Bitcoin in these mines. The more the more formidable of intransigent minority, the Bitcoin Community becomes advocating for what Bitcoin is which is freedom of speech and property rights. Like that's that's all it is. At its core and the gold bugs are on that. You know, same wavelength and should the Allies for us, and we're in this Race Against Time of like, if we can get just a little bit further into the adoption curve such that, you know, right now we have RFK Junior and Ted Cruz saying that Bitcoin is a good thing. And they are you realistically Fringe personas in the National political Arena. Can we get a little bit further? Towards the mainstream before the SEC. And another Regulators have time to really attack Bitcoin having you know they have a few years before if they were to focus just on cleaning house and crypto it would take them a few years to do that from this point in time. So you know, we have a we have a few years of Runway to try to on board as many people as possible to the value proposition of Bitcoin and hard money in general, that includes gold. So hopefully, we can Run fast enough hard enough for long enough here to build the Coalition. We need to defend freedom of speech and property rights with Bitcoin and with gold before the cbc's come down hard. Yeah. There's one more topic I wanted to touch on Tyler unless you have anything to add to that. I don't work out. That was the definitely. I agree with both those framings. I think that also the episode that you guys stayed with, with Lawrence the parvez awesome. We do need to align ourselves maybe with Argus I guess start to educate and then take on the gold bug. So, just with open arms, I believe ya. Come here, Cole books. Give us a big hug. We love you philosophically. Aligned Now, the other thing I know we big week with the SEC, coming out your finance and coinbase something that's been choreographed by the SEC and predicted by many bitcoiners for many years. So, the fact that it happened this week, it makes sense that we would spend the Lion's Share of this episode talking about that. But another thing which I do want to talk about particularly since you're here, Tyler is the rumors that started last night. David Bailey sent out a text that there is a large crew. Because stir or Bitcoin, custodian that is on the verge of bankruptcy potentially happening and of market tomorrow, if things don't get solved, it's terribly, kept secret that it's likely Prime trust, which is a custodian that a lot of services leverage swamp Bitcoin used to they've since transition off to Fortress trust, which ironically was founded by the founder of prime Trust. He left and started. This strike has had Reliance on on Prime trust fold as well. They've all since moved off but you still have by Nancy us and this is probably what's causing the problem set at Prime trust this week. I would imagine it's Finance. U.s. okay X and a few others are still leveraging Prime trust. And it seems like They could be in a precarious situation. They hold both Bitcoin and dollar balances for customers, or a mixture or one or the other for particular customers. And if they go down, there could be even more Tremors in the industry to end the week. And I think this highlights why unchain and on-ramp exists is because the rumors are that they may not be whole on the Bitcoin. They're supposed to be holding, which Is something that can be solved Bitcoins, native multisig properties. So I guess just throw it out to the group. What have you guys been hearing? What do you think? The significance of a prime dress going down? Would be Just a little context to before I think Tyler has has some stuff to weigh in on here. So on on by Nance right now Bitcoin is trading at two thousand dollars more than everywhere else so there's a two thousand dollar premium on by manse for Bitcoin and that suggests that insiders it's not the Bitcoin is worth more. It's that insiders believe that the dollars In that ecosystem, the by Nance world are worth less meaning, you know that there's a risk that those dollars aren't there and so dollars on by an answer trading at a discount effectively. So that's the scale. And the, the realness of these rumors, insiders believe there's something to it, enough to create almost 10% Delta in Bitcoins price on one. Change versus all the others. Yeah, I think it's you know it's like Parker used to talk about this a lot and still does like this concept of extreme ownership and Bitcoin and that extreme ownership. Of course, is levied on the individual when it comes to extreme ownership over your wealth right over your portion of 21 million usual, the keys we were thinking about building a Bitcoin business, I think that extreme ownership needs to also be something that's taken quite seriously and I think this is you know a really big warning sign to two individuals running these businesses. You know, if you're running a Bitcoin business In house is going to be the way to go if you're going to offer a trading desk. If you're going to, you know, if you're going to build something as quality, as the likes of, you know, River Unchained on-ramp. You have these like these Bitcoin on the businesses while it is a low time preference method about about building about going about building. It's it's at the end of the day crucial and it might be the sole reason you remain alive, right? Hopping from kind of one back end to another Certainly one way to go and that might be out of necessity for a lot of folks. Right. It's like hard to grow a start-up or a young company but I do think this is like a warning sign right now where it's hey where there's smoke there's fire and you know there's going to be another fired up road at some point. It's inevitable. So taking the right steps now and taking extreme ownership now. It's going to be the best way to go. So it's like we work with clients day in and day out that are moving Bitcoin to their own funds. They ask about this stuff and this is also the really interesting resting just mental analogy. I think I've talked about it with you Marty before. It's like you look at Bitcoin held on exchanges and with its, you know, it's a clean base, right? Not related to Prime trust but even if it's Prime trust even if it's Bitcoin, all them Prime trust like they could be securing hundreds of millions or billions of dollars worth of bitcoin with a handful of keys where you look at the client base or somebody like Unchained, you know they're holding their Bitcoin with thousands. Keys, right? It's a tell my clients all the time when I'm working with them. It's just kind of how people talk, they'll say. So when I send my Bitcoin over to you guys, and I have to pause and say, so like that's kind of an incorrect framing or not, depositing your Bitcoin with us, right? You are holding the keys to your own Bitcoin. We're just a collaborative partner that and so being loud and educating about that is still really, really important. But yeah, that you know, however the chips fall where there is prime trust or some other entity that for some reason we have been It correctly about. I do think it's like an important and good healthy warning to bitcoin companies in the space that the extreme ownership low time. Preference building is the way to go. And another way to say extreme ownership, particularly in Bitcoin, which is the phrase popularized by Nick Szabo which is trusted, third parties are security holes. And so in the case of prime trust, it's a it's a third party that's leverage by many other actors in the space and Those actors are putting a lot of trust in Prime trust to actually do what they say they can do we inevitably with a lot of these trusted third parties, get to a point where they can't do what they say they can do. And that trust that you gave them comes back to bite you in the ass because you are not afforded the services. They said they were going to give you which is custom Bitcoin, facilitating the buy, and sell Bitcoin, facilitating US dollar transfers. It seems like many people that are trusting I'm trust are going to learn that hard lesson rumors at this point. Should clarify, that these are just rumors that are going around on Twitter. We will find out if there's any validity behind them, but it seems like they're there may be at this point, but again, like Tyler just mentioned like Bitcoin. Provide, you this beautiful ability to take possession of your asset of the you taxes that you hold and Not only that, it has this other beautiful property that you can do it in a way that distributes risk among multiple keys in the Unchained model. The user has two keys on chain has one, like Tyler said collaborative, Cassidy, it's a two or three multisig. If you ever need to move your Bitcoin and you have one key and the others somewhere else, but you really need to move it. You sign one key and unchanged. There the Sun, the other on ramp, like this is why you guys exist to. So like unchanged, probably deeper down the funnel than what you guys are offering but still even at the the trust trust in the financial asset or the structure definition of the word like this is a much better model than the gray scales of the world where yes the individual may not have a key in the Quorum but you distribute that key risk among different institutions Woods, which reduces the third-party risk that exists. Yeah, I think I think the core thing is like, decentralization is not an ideology idea, ology it is game. Theoretical the best game like, big best setup. And you think about, we always talk about this. We talk about like the decentralization of hash rate and why it's important to the network. But as Tyler alluded to decentralization of keys or just as important and we've seen this play out, we know what happened with gold in the centralization and so you think about it from somebody? Coming into Bitcoin. When you see my just from a long-term perspective, if Bitcoin is to be successful, you want those keys spread out as far into the network, simply from a perspective of you are going to challenge money. There's a number of reasons why you don't want it sitting at a honey pot and sitting on a certain exchange and then on the other side of that on owning the private Keys, it's a spectrum as Marty alluded to where different individuals come at it from different extreme ownership of what they're willing. I was Part of the, you know, sitting in Tyler. She's very early on and helping onboard individuals, and something that always resonator or kept in my mind was the higher, the net worth the individual. This is just the fact that is just reality, the more money, the person had the more angry or annoyed that they were asked or tasked with holding cryptographic material. It's not to say that they never will, or they won't some did it begrudgingly? And some said, like screw it. I'm not going to do it. And those people potentially may not have their Bitcoin anymore because they want they don't sexualize. Is and so that's really the idea. It's like, what are the one of the ways that we can help me people? Whether it's a chain or a other products to onboard, make it Seamless decentralised, get those keys out and not have a single point of failure and then ultimately, as information as a market shakes out, you can find other ways to to, you know, essentially hold your asset. And I don't, I used to have the view that there was like, one, right way to hold that coin and I don't actually have that more. I think it's just always moving all the time depending on your risk profile, your amount of Bitcoin, the status of the world. And at some point, I will do my keys right now, but a certain point if we're really well known and the price of Bitcoin is can do 1000x. What it is? I don't necessarily know if I want it to be known that I can always move my Bitcoin unilaterally having kids and things like that. So I think it's just it's a constantly moving Target with the core principle. You don't want a single point of failure and you want those keys as far out of the network. In more broadly. Speaking we got tweeted this out last night like I think on the other side of this hill if the rumors around Prime trust are true for the type of service that they're providing like multi-institution multisig should be the standard moving forward because the way multi-institution like in a financial products to use some chains, lending desk, for example, it's a multi Institution, Two or three, multisig corn, which the the borrower puts up Bitcoin. As collateral in this multisig, escrow wallet, they hold one key, the borrower does unchain holds a key and then Kingdom trust holds the third K. So in this agreement me as a borrower on the individual borrowing, I get the confidence of knowing that Unchained can't unilaterally move my Bitcoin. They don't hold two keys, it's spread out between them and another institution. Similarly With Honor, Ramp if you invest in the the on-ramp trust on-ramp holds the key Kingdom Trussell to keep it goes the key. Like you know, that's distributed among free institutions. They have to collude to move your Bitcoin which is unlikely given the fact that they want to uphold the reputations of good stewards of the keys that they hold in sign on behalf of individuals. And so this really acts as a forcing function for individual companies and Services offering Bitcoin. Products to act act correctly. Like you literally cannot miss allocate the funds because you would need to collaborate with another institution to do so and the likelihood of them willing to being willing to sort of erode their reputation because you want to do something with customer. Bitcoin is is lower. Yeah, especially if you can. Yeah, god well, I was just gonna add that, you know, that's especially true. When these parties involved are qualified custodian companies and their entire reputation is, is based on being responsible stewards for client assets. And they're not about to risk that to participate in some kind of collusion. Yeah, I think the two things to say is like that, there's a lot of things we've said that are theoretical And that people that are closer to the space will agree with or have come to those conclusions. The one that is not their abilities is practical and it is the state of the market is Unchained. Did not look at has never lost a lot. They had a form of custody that will we just loved. Marty just talked about and as the market and all the leverage and all things happen, they could not rehypothecation, they cannot move client funds. And so when we talk about, you know, multi-party custody and the way you want to distribute keys and why it is From a sense for pokes, whether it's Palm on collaborative, custody, holding one key or to whatever the setup is, there's this reality that it provides a assurances that don't exist in the old world of whether it's crypto or just traditional financial services. And to Jesse's point, this is the market structure now, but it's our view that as this gets accepted into the market, on the next run up, people will look for firms that provide services like this because they And that education gets disseminated Market, they realize that they do not want to leave their Bitcoin the precious book when on a single exchange and over time, you know, right now it's Bitcoin companies are Bitcoin and Jason companies, but you can imagine a world where a firm, hold the key that their balance sheet is completely different and they're tied economically. And like from their productivity there to revenue is tied to whether its Financial Services or some other offering, but they will the kids. So, just from a game theory, they're not incentivized to move the assets or collude. Because that is something that obviously comes up and the common answer to that is well, there's no, there's no perfect solution for just trade-offs and that's really the reality. It's like very often early. I don't change folks and say, well what you can collude with Kingdom trust or at the time it was Citadel to move the funds and it's like, well sure you can but your whole Enterprise Value would go to zero all the things that would happen along with that. And you're, if you're assuming that will you've already taken a step that block by would have already done that, which they happen to be doing that. So I think over time we will find more Our key Partners or key Partners will grow, they'll realize they want to step in and be a part of the Bitcoin ecosystem and it's a very low hanging easy way to participate. Build trust and just build a more like result resilient redundant part of the network. Yeah, I think an interesting backdrop to, to both on-ramp and Unchained. It's like, it's Bitcoin multisig, right? We don't have to worry about MPC like multi-party computation or whatever might be behind something like a fire box or something like that. Because As we're worried about other assets, being secured in multisig, right there is I think just MPC bug exploited, maybe a couple months ago, it's like we have Bitcoin multisig. It's a native Bitcoin property and we're using that to, you know, that at, that is what we're educating on. And we are, that's, that's what we're using to secure. I think, what is the Best Collateral ever, the best money ever, and like, that cannot be overstated. I think so. It's like, the, the native And protocols and then Michael nailed it. Exactly like, eliminating your single points of failure. At the end of the day, Prime trust is a single point of failure or who, you know, whoever it is, if it's one source, one signature required, to move funds into your in onto your Bitcoin address that you control. There's only one counterparty that is a trusted third party. That is a security hole and a single point of failure. Yeah, it was really ironic touching it back to what Jesse said earlier when you the Logan Valley, archetype the Silicon Valley VC archetype looks a bit coin, so there's no innovation like, that's the ironic thing because like something like this is incredibly Innovative for the building, like a new Financial system on top of the assurances that are provided with this multisig, multi-institution model, are an innovation that anybody really Grox. What's going on here? Should notice. Immediately and intuitively. Like this is a massive step function Improvement in the security of financial assets. Broadly speaking, not just in Bitcoin like for the world. Yeah, this is is trying to find like Innovation to add another level of cards on top of the House of Cards. It's built on Sand and they don't recognize when they see Bitcoin is laying a concrete foundation. Of a totally new separate house that doesn't register for them as Innovation because they're looking for the next tier of of cards. And in what is a doomed construction project from the beginning? Yeah, and the growth of went Jessica's reference in building that, you know, base like Foundation, Tyler keyed in on it and it's very little it's not necessarily talk or known but like the interoperability of event Emma. Again in a multisig is basically infinite. Scalable not from like the number of M of n, but from The Trusted parties that can continue to grow with it. And so you can build a resilient redundant base layer of custody with trusted parties as you're able to hold one of those keys and anything else doesn't provide that, and that's like the dirty secret because everybody who averages and then PC or like an HSM. Generally, the main players are far blocks Anchorage and, you know, somewhat Ledger and some other firms. But they use a clip to keep that closed systems. They can never go to another party and participate in that. And what's being built, here, we know, others are building it. And that's the beauty is like it's not competitive. In the sense of I think of it like strike and lights Park striping and playing this world of like you know enterprise-grade liquidity and tooling around payments and everything that they're building on interchange in lights. Work for an uninitiated like oh that's very competitive playing with the realities you want multiple people playing in that field, these were playing for the biggest game and so if others are Basically legitimizes and standardizes that you have a better form of a financial product and then others can jump in. And again, when you're talking about all the money and all the assets you want as many people participating and you don't want to be sitting alone, trying to do that and that's where like, adding additional key holders. Kenan trust was awesome to be early. Ryan's great, bit, go and there's discussions that I think everybody's having for folks, that would join a network like this. And as that continues to grow, you can imagine jurisdictions will I'll also come into play across the world and it just adds to the further robustness and attack surface that people are looking out to think about what maybe I want some keys that held outside the United States. I'll make the argument that Silicon Valley is intimidated but the level of innovation going on in Bitcoin because you know, it's not just these innovative business models. It's also many script and Frost with Taproot there's so many like interesting things that can be built on top of Bitcoin. So it's like you know, it's just, it's education, it's getting the word out there, it's inspiring these, you know, young, whether you're a product person or an engineer like work on bitcoin, the Austin seen, Seen Silicon Valley even could be, maybe a may be rescued or I guess, you know, ever ever, ever Redemption Arc, but there's so much Innovation going on in Bitcoin, so that might be where the about tweet thread later, any Marty's going to rescue Philadelphia before Silicon Valley, gets rescued. Absolutely Philly. I'm coming back. I'm going to I'm going to say Philly at some point not that it needs. I'm not gonna act like yeah I'm gonna say Philly at some point. I need saving. He's offered these Frankfurt. Oh you said New York City to look like Mad Max. I think they're a little trouble as well. Philly looks like that today. All the smoke is is gone to Philly but no I mean we need to build on the strong Foundation as Jesse as Jesse said. And that's really the sad thing about the Silicon Valley thing that's been sort of the seen. The overarching theme of this episode is the inability of the finances. Coin basis, Silicon Valley, VCS of the world to not eat the marshmallow and fall for the siren calls of crypto and the quick and fast gains that will come there at the end of the day. There's a very empty gain. See you. You're scamming people at the end of the day. Yes. You're making your LPS Rich. Yes. You're going public as a company but at the end of the day, are you actually pushing the ball forward in terms of creating the new digital Financial realm? I don't think so. I think the the scoreboard would show that you've really rubbed a lot of retail investors made yourself and your investors rich with nothing to show for it at the end of the day and all the cases. Is that wouldn't like it, there's nothing there. It's very morally bankrupt in my opinion and Bitcoin. A lot of people think it's slow dumb, stupid expensive, but it is as things for a reason. And as we just mentioned, Bitcoin is extremely Innovative. When you, when you factor in these native properties that allow you to build a strong Foundation that can actually fix the structural problems that exist throughout our financial banking system. Perfectly said, Marty excellent. Michael, do you want to say somebody saw you jump. I was just and also like the numbers just don't add up in the sense of all the crypto only exist. When the money sloshing like you there's a chart with the Venture for this year but then the thing that most people like and I don't know how they rationalize this but like whether it's crypto or the users, once the liquidity dries like once the market kind of, you know, does its thing in the cycle and everything is you know, buy Bitcoins tail went like all the activity ends. It's all washed ready, when you really like, look at it, like they try to make digital Primitives. On it and there's just a token that's being traded and then once it flows but it was like one of the money just so it doesn't add up because to your point Marty like you're saying the Innovation doesn't really like by definition. There is no innovation because the dollars there's so many dollars that it's chasing these like crazy things that don't make any sense in a second. The dollar slow down because the cost of capital goes everything just like come to a screeching halt and nobody's eating any of the crap there that everybody is positive. You're saying that they're like In the world and keep it, you know, whatever they say about the global South and the currencies and whatever crap that like they're trying to push to further this like you know Griff it'll just like comes to screeching halt and you're sitting there and there was no innovation, there was nothing done, a bunch of people lost it a bunch of money. So yeah, the crypto would suggest is and I think Point earlier like Kudzu crooked just basically gave like the highest Fidelity signal of the Venture sloshing of money, into the quickest way to dump on people. And in richest an individual or a group of individuals, it's been a fascinating conversation. Tyler, thank you for joining us this week. Any, any final thoughts before we wrap up here? A lot of folks listening to this, like, you know, if you haven't taken the move, just custody or Bitcoin or think about eliminating all single points of failure, like do it extreme ownership extreme responsibility. It's like nobody can do it but you get off the couch and go do it. There's so many great resources out there. In terms of Education, the blog at Unchained is excellent with some awesome team members that are just you know 50 feet away from me that right. Really best-in-class content just came out with the hollow caves. You can see the spread of returns for Bitcoin. Hold periods. I think that's really, really interesting. So go maybe make it a weekend of education, but no, this is awesome. You guys. I am really inspired to go back to my Silicon, Valley relatives and have another conversation. So thank you, you know, even episode of send him. Yeah, exactly. Exactly Jesse Michael anything. No. Yeah. I I think, you know, from the on-ramp perspective of Tyler's right? That eventually, I think everyone should be aspiring to self custody. Michael also talked about, you know, their scenarios where you it might make sense for people to consider at least part or majority through an Avenue where they can't unilaterally control their own coins for security purposes. And social engineering purposes, but you know, the aspiration should be towards self custody. However, for a lot of people listening, you know, they're bitcoiners, they've taken self custody or are ready to. But for a lot of people in your lives, they're not ready for Bitcoin because they're scared of of how to handle this new asset in a secure way. And that's We built on ramp to be a bridge for people to get into Bitcoin in a way where they know they have best-in-class security through multisig multi-party, vaults, but it allows them to keep open the option to take self custody when they're ready. So, you know, there's a learning process involved in Bitcoin and you don't want to get stuck in grayscale where you're not allowed to withdraw your Bitcoin and you don't want to be leaving it on coinbase because of the stuff they were seeing play out in the market in real time. So for those people in your life who are ready for Bitcoin better scared, we think the on-ramp helps lower that barrier to entry to get a position in Bitcoin and get started at the right way it while allowing for eventually transitioning to self custody with with a platform like Unchained or whoever makes sense for that individual. Yeah, that's actually a great point that I'll share, only with is something we talked about early days and chain, Parker. We go into meetings that the referencing at Tyler of like holding those private Keys. It makes something that's ephemeral to individuals that's just like up in the air tangible, and that they see these hard keys, the keys, the private key was on the device, they don't just get up and walk away. And so when they understand the mechanisms behind that they can actually Park real well, because our thought is that everybody wants exposure. Once they Best for NASA, the properties, but then they just shy away from it because it can't figure out the custody. And so whether it's holding a single key, multisig, real 23 or saying, oh, I understand that these keys are segregated or Like Hell by different institutions. They don't just get up and plug themselves in and this is how I can feel confident and getting exposure. And then I can go down the rabbit hole and get educated figure out what the best thing is. I think all of those unlock a lot of capital because a lot of people are scared that what's going to happen at by Nancy coinbase and FTX and blog fi So yeah, excited. And then I think a bunch of us are going to Nashville next week. So we'll, we'll see some folks there. And then, whoever, whether it's Tyler Marty or in the Commons office, go ping, ping Parker. I think we got em tentatively slated next week. He's supposed to be in Nashville as well so you guys can see it. But he was he was ducking down. Looking through the window right here. I think he's very happy with the group we have today, incredible group rips, re in the books. A lot of stuff's going on. This is where the signal is Bitcoin is a signal, don't listen to the people telling you the Bitcoin maximalist number one, they don't exist. There's no, like there's no like uniform group pick winners, who agree on everything. It doesn't exist to fiction of people's imagination. Read the receipts. We've been saying the stuff for years eliminate single points of failure. There's a lot of grift and morally, dubious morally, dubious activity, going on in crypto. We're here at the last trade to bring signal to help you understand this and hope you like this for. It will see you guys next week. Read the receipts. We've been saying the stuff for years eliminate single points of failure. There's a lot of grift and morally, dubious morally, dubious activity, going on in crypto. We're here at the last trade to bring signal to help you understand this and hope you like this for. It will see you guys next week.