Transcript+
Rollin over Rollin right here. We're here in Tennessee, gentlemen, we brought Austin to Tennessee. Yes, welcome to episode 4 of the last trade. As you can see, if you're watching this on YouTube or Spotify, we've got a different set up Michael and I are in person together this week joined by Parker Lewis free Texans and Tennessee. That's right 33 Texans and one soon to be texting soon-to-be to be dropping news on the show here is soon to be texting the top. Quarter here. It's not, let's not count our chickens before they hatch. Okay? Okay, this might be news to rod in Masher. Talk into the mic. This might be news. So I don't know if Jesse's comfortable with the, yeah, but it's out. Yeah, you know, I think I think yeah we can't count the chickens till they've hatched but that's the current plan. So you know, I'm in California. Well at the moment I'm in Henderson Nevada but we're based out of California and you know, it doesn't feel like the right place for the Bitcoin future. In my opinion especially with the way that you know there's talk of like exit taxes and wealth taxes and so on in California that makes me pretty uncomfortable and Texas. Tennessee was a contender, that's the place where it feels like policy and is setting up to embrace Bitcoin and Bitcoin owners are working hard to make that happen. And that's where I want to be. Yeah. I mean today was a testament to that. I know we're in Tennessee few Texans, but today's event was great. Yeah, we're big fans of Tennessee. Yeah. And see in Texas, have a tight Bond, you know, there's a number of other states to that. I feel like have that. It's not the last Bastion of freedom, but I do think when it comes to aligning with the not just ethos of Bitcoin and values of Bitcoin but create an environment where if you're going to build a company On bitcoin to service the Bitcoin Community, Bitcoin holders that you need to do it in a business. Friendly place that that welcome Lee Embraces it. Well this is a great first topic to begin with that we haven't don't even have on the list. But this idea of the balkanization of the United States to a certain degree with State's leading the way, obviously, Texas Tennessee are to the states that are more. Forward leaning in terms of protection of property rights, low taxes, and open for business, Jesse in, California is leaving. Because you see the opposite of that that happening, they're becoming more restrictive really creating policy that is pushing businesses away. That's one thing we do have on the list that the vacancy rates of commercial real estate in San Francisco, particularly hitting, really high levels, but I guess just to toss it up to the group, will start the Jesse so that we're not hogging the mic on this side and the Video here. How do you view? The future of Bitcoin in this world that seems to be Balkan izing a bit more. Yeah, I mean, it comes back to the game theory that we always talk about. We tend to think about it on the international level, you know, El Salvador's making moves to embrace Bitcoin and Bitcoin owners and Bitcoin business and you know, other countries can and will do that, but it's also happening on the state level, you know? And that's a story that's Tale As Old As Time. Time here in the United States. With in terms of business-friendly jurisdictions versus the places that are capitalizing on the quality of life for their weather, more than anything else like California. And yeah, so I think there's an opportunity for politicians who are, you know, want to juice their local economies, their their state economies to get ahead Of the curve in terms of Bitcoin friendliness. And you know I think Wyoming is a good example of Bitcoin aligns with Wyoming values in a way and that has allowed them to be a bit ahead. Just a little bit you know. Like I don't know it's not like they've created a Bitcoin Haven yet but they are wrapping their heads around how Bitcoin and business can can go hand in hand and Support each other and are taking strides towards embracing that. I'm sure Parker has more thoughts on on this in particular. Yeah I mean I do think that. Yeah I have a few different perspectives on this but I think I think about Bitcoin at its core is a movement of individuals, but that different places attract different type of people that are going to be more or less. Inclined to embrace Bitcoin as a tool and embrace the underlying principles. And Wyoming has been one of those Senator lummis, and Senator Cruz, Sentinel almost was the first u.s. Senator to actively and openly support Bitcoin Senator Cruz has been very outspoken as well. And I think that it's, yeah, it's not coincidence that it's in the places that At and I think, like, there is this core idea that a lot of times people, I think in the state is deep State, people who resist change, like to say, like, when all say that, the Queen's going to replace the dollar that there's something unpatriotic about that, but that people that are actually looking and thinking about Bitcoin. From first principles, will recognize that there's nothing more consistent with the founding principles of America than Bitcoin. Yeah. At the core of Free Speech but really ultimately the power to go out and produce value for others and converting, it just in a form of way that you can print and be in control of your own destiny. And so, there are states that really, today, I think Embrace more of those founding principles. Even I believe, probably, all of them have strayed to some extent. But that the states that do attract bitcoiners Bitcoin company, economic development. But I also think that That you know, in many ways and I think we'll start to see this in Texas Wyoming as well because it's a it's a big energy state that politicians who might not otherwise care about Bitcoin will care about it because it helped solve an energy problem. And so those states that are net exporters of energy will, you know, all. And it's also generally not a coincidence that those states are more, you know, kind of principled around private property and economic development that There will be a kind of accelerating movement to support Bitcoin kind of in Texas. We had a near Miss where there was going to be some legislation that kind of restricted how miners can participate in ancillary services. But ultimately there's the greatest long-term alignment and it is its combination of personal freedom property rights and and ultimately energy. The I used to think a lot about this back in the day, like 2020 2021 going out to the market and, you know, trying to raise from A big as a big one. Only company and it's no coincidence that Unchained Capital was born in Texas and you see the Bitcoin Commons and the companies that are moving there and Tennessee's an extension of that where the underlying first principle first principle of sovereignty, the Nakamoto Institute being, you know, founded in Austin Texas before it was cool to be in Austin. There's like underlying principles that have been there for very long time and I think they'll continue. Yeah I'm Parker to your point to it really ties into I think the biggest topic on the list. About those at the federal level and many with in Bitcoin who get perturbed. When we say dick, what is going to replace the US dollar as a reserve, currency of the world claiming that we are unpatriotic. I think I agree completely with what you said, it actually is extremely patriotic to be championing Bitcoin because it does embody and protect private property rights sound money and the ability to transact in a peer-to-peer fashion in free and open economic His actions and this is really. Interesting right now because the big topic we have on the list is Janet Yellen on Capitol Hill just yesterday, essentially admitting in front of the world that Americans should prepare for the US dollar to lose. It's a reserve currency slowly moving into the future, Jesse to throw it back to you, in your mind. What is the significance of the statement from Janet Yellen? It's a sea change moment. I think that this is a major milestone in what bitcoiners have been projecting forward into the future and seeing as an inevitable path because, you know, the US dollar has been the reserve currency of the world for 100 years going going. Close to that. I mean, depends when you draw the line. And if you do Bretton Woods, it's 80 years and We, you know, if you look at the math, the fiscal situation for the u.s. we have 31 and a half trillion dollars of national debt, which we're now paying approaching five percent interest rates on that national debt, which will end up being one point five trillion dollars per year in interest expense alone while we're already running two trillion dollar deficits. So you know that math right there. It's what you know, I refer to as the debt spiral black hole where the only way out of that ultimately is to print more money in order to fund your deficit spending which makes holding us. Treasuries, a bad idea because us treasuries are you're holding a contract that promises to pay you more dollars in the future and that only makes sense. If the yield on that, is it? Positive real return. But if the inflation rate that you're going to see over that time, period exceeds the nominal return on those contracts, then you're losing money by holding us. Treasuries. So, it's a losing proposition. If you're a foreign country to acquire us, treasuries and put them on your balance sheet as part of your treasury, Reserve strategy, and that's the math. And that's where everything is pointing. Words and we've seen the brics Nations agitating really, for the last 20 years about trying to get off the US dollar as the de facto currency for the oil Market internationally. And a year ago, was when I think that became a sealed a sealed deal, that that oil markets, and the brics nations would go off of the The the US dollar as the only currency for trading in oil. Because when, when Russia went into Ukraine, the G7 led by the US froze, the foreign reserves of Russia. So they, you know, whatever dollars in US, treasuries were owned by Russia. Sorry those aren't yours anymore. You don't control them. You don't have access. So them and that's an act of economic war, and it's Crossing the Rubicon in terms of using the dollar as a weapon against anybody who's going to, you know, not play in the interests of US foreign policy. So that moment in time becomes the Catalyst for the brics Nations to agitate a, little harder to get off of the US dollar as the international trade standard. And you know, knowing that At this math is coming in terms of national debt and the inflation, it's going to have to happen in order to inflate away the debt which will cause anybody holding the debt to lose purchasing power in real terms. So having yelling acknowledge that today is kind of a a moment that frankly I would have expected years from now, but here it is. It's a overt acknowledgement from The person who has the most vested interest to deny this reality. And it's acknowledging that this is happening and we are entering you know the changing World Order of a monetary future. That's shifting from unipolar power of just the dollar to a multipolar world with the G7 and bricks and obviously we all believe that. A major part of that equation is the It's of the internet as this super Sovereign power and Bitcoin as the native currency of the internet. Do we have any context around the Ellen? Like, where did she say this? What was the surrounding kind of narrative that she like? Can't imagine just like blurted this out this at a press conference was a at a speech where their questions follows it's got means it is remarkable that Janet Yellen was out, you know, I think drone pal a year or two ago came out and said something similar, but it wasn't in like a marginal sense that wasn't in like expect this to start happening. It was like I can imagine a future where this isn't true. Rather than Should start to prepare for this reality. Like what was the context dude, we do. We know that we're like where she said that or why she said that. I just saw the quote in text, so I'm not actually sure what the surrounding context was I believe she was on Capitol Hill answering questions. We were to golf outing yesterday and we had an event all day today, so I've been able to dive in to the specifics of the context but Logan, if you could search for the Bloomberg article or Zero Hedge, I believe, tweeted out as well. We can dive in get that context but but while Logan's doing that, I think this presents a good opportunity to because Even if we're taking this comment out of context, let's just run with the hypothetical that it was said in the context that were believing. It was said in, which is she was pressured asked the question about the US Dollars Reserve currency and she had to admit American, should start preparing for the slow Decay at the US dollar as a reserve currency. Obviously, Jesse, just mention the push towards the multipolar world with the brics countries in their attempt to create a who knows what they're going to create. Whether it's you on back to Gold-backed SDR type basket of goods that they try to back a currency with. How do we incept in the minds of American politicians and policymakers that? Hey, it's actually a pretty responsible thing for you to recognize this, or maybe it's not responsible. If it's all a big con game and you should put on a facade of strength, even if it isn't there, but a recognition that this is the reality and we don't have to move. Move to this multipolar world, where brics Nations have their commodity back currencies, we can use this operator as an opportunity for American individuals in the American economy, more, broadly, to LeapFrog, to bitcoin, to supercharge United States in the 21st century. yeah, I mean I think that There, it's very difficult to say, like, what is that message that will resonate that will get somebody to say yes to? I think that what it ultimately is though is in a recognition or an acceptance that people and countries respond to incentives, right? And that when I saw that, the first thing I thought of was A Bitcoin that quote, but then to Jesse brought up Russia, being cut off from Swift that cause an incentive, right? And when Russia got cut off of Swift, There was an interesting quote that after I thought a Bitcoin when I saw yelling score, I thought about the second thing which was, I think it was a Russian Finance Minister. It was, it was someone from Russia that was They basically received rupees, I think Indian rupees and they're like we've got too much Rupees, we need to sell the rupees that that moment when Russia got cut off a Swift. And now when all these other countries are responding to those insensitive saying this whole system is based on trust, trust, was broken. What do we do? It's like the Russians. Don't want to hold Chinese currency. The Chinese. Don't want to hold Russian currency. Yeah, maybe gold is an option, but they're all Out there looking at each other saying, well, if I can't trust a dollar, why could you know, why would the Russian government trust the Chinese? Even if they might have an aligned interest against the dollar, it doesn't mean that they're magically just going to see the power to another potentially worse trading partner. And so I like I'm curious of just you know what I would point to your question. Marty is like people will follow the incentives and and what I'm most curious about is like, do they actually Go to something as an intermediate or do they go straight to bitcoin? Do they do they start evaluating just kind of like sailor did where he was like saying I had a problem and I went from A to B to C to d d death, looking at everything. I could possibly shift to as a solution because their first instinct might be, oh, I needed you on back currency but if but if the Chinese recognize that the Russians won't accept that and the Russians accept the Chinese won't do they just all so to bitcoin. Yeah so this is a I'm glad we went Because I was hoping we'd get to get your, get you positive in everybody, but you specifically on, like, how does this happen? Because I think we'd all agree. It's emergent. It doesn't. It's not necessarily going to be politicians telling you to use this or we should use this. There's going to be a function of, we have to coordinate, economic activity and as the dollars going. And there's going to be some exit valve, because at the end of the day, we all know we talked about going to Cooper's or wherever it doesn't make sense like the price of goods, keep going up the cost of living or the amount of dollars people were making her stay in the same. If not going, you know, Who are employed and all the things associated. What happens from, you know, we hear cbc's, we are stimulus checks, whatever happens, I think about, I had a friend that owned or a family friend that own convenience or was growing up and back then. Like now I think it's called Snap but at the time it was called it's like a version of food stamps and what they would do at a market was created where you could only use the food stamps for like home. Like Staples like bread milk but they were able to go and have this intermediary exchange where you exchange that For the dollars or for what you wanted to buy, like, beer, liquor, whatever until this, like coordination created Created with a free market. And so I think of this world of like there's Bitcoin and people have recognized it, and they've already cross that Gap and then as the others that are thinking of like the CDC or whatever and they're holding, that the government issue in it and some Market is created there and then you're gonna have gold and whatever's back door, not backed. And that's the more interesting thing is like, what? How does the information you know, cross into your point is to go directly to bitcoin? I don't think it does. I think, like, based on everybody's Journey, we know there's like an ellucian, some people get sooner than others other people will go to cold recently. There were some like legislation with like a gold back currency in Texas and I don't know exactly what seems like it's getting further along, you might know about this but one of the things that I found the most interesting was there was a bunch of comments as part of that of Texans saying and I think there's something also in Tennessee going on where they're there, they don't know Bitcoin, they haven't heard it. So for it's hard but they do understand like sound money and that the government's Printing and the things aren't making sense and they want to go back to that for It's like, how do we cross that and not have to jump to that? I don't think we can. I think we just have to be able to tighten it as much as possible. And that's like, what the Pod like this is also about is like, how do we kind of says, initially meant for the bitcoiners, meant for the corner, share with their friends. Like, hey, you should listen to this and your you should you're thinking about it, you know, there's a problem. Yeah. No, that's something part of you talk about a lot. We talk about a lot when we're discussing. This is how do we Michael mentioned to get the gas station, owner, to accept Bitcoin. Get the Rancher to accept Bitcoin Lee. I think for the audience's uninitiated with your point of view on this like it's going to take a lot of hard work, but what do we need to do to get that circular economy to get Bitcoin like into the hands of more people? Yeah, well I'll answer that first on Michaels point. I think that, you know, most likely when it thinking about a geopolitical in this is my obviously my opinion but Oftentimes, we think about, you know, they're going to choose something, but the reality is, they might choose multiple things or that almost necessarily, they will. Like when people say the Bitcoins too volatile to be money and then there's all these people adopting Bitcoin seemingly not having it be too volatile where it's that when someone starts to adopt Bitcoin, they don't just boom cut over 100 percent of there. Dollars at once. So all their real-estate Holdings. All their stocks, it's a progression and that I think that same thing will almost necessarily have to translate to the geopolitical or country level where it is. They got a trade with the Chinese and they've got to trade with the Russians and the and India and they need oil and they're going to need dollars, but that one country is one. Major country is going. First and that is going to, you know, just like, you know, and again I think a country that's a massive exporter of energy would have a much larger effect. Then say, in El Salvador like El Salvador was a precedent Setter but if you are Russia and you are an exporter of energy or if they're Saudi Arabia and you're an exporter of energy or your China and exporter of a lot of Anything else, everything else that it that it's going to cause much more logical knock-on effect because a China or Russia could use a CBC and control their local populations and dictate the trade occur in that in there in the local jurisdiction. But this is about cross-border final settlement of massive trade balances. And so I think that when that happens, it's not all the sudden, it's probably a combination. Nation of I'm still using dollars, you know you're going to have some you want them and have some rubles and one of them is going to be mining Bitcoin you know probably all of them and then you know, it's all just who you know after the fact who are we going to find out about it first? So I think that that's probably the progression and then I think on, on Marty's point of like, how do we, you know, kind of hate the term circular economy, but the way I think about it in a lot. Logical order is somebody has to First understand? Why they why Bitcoin will hold its value over time before they're willing to sell their goods and services directly for that thing. If you do not have any context. And so it's like, it always starts with education, but I think the point that you might be alluding to is that Food money energy are the most basic necessities. Everything else is a derivative and that one of the things that were observing, as interest rates are rising, because it kind of comes into the whole context of the conversation is the things that continue to get more expensive or the things that have to be produced on a marginal basis, right? Like, if you think about the whole oil and gas supply chain, there's constantly oil coming out of the ground and is getting to Market just in time. When you're thinking about perishable food on the grocery store shelves. Like that's a just-in-time delivery mechanism. Things like real estate might come down because they're jacking up interest rates but it doesn't make producing food and energy any easier. But I also think that those those goods are most tied to or like, probably most tied to hard labor like it. Requires not only a lot of Technology, but a lot of the great to produce oil, same thing with food and that there is something that I think becomes easier for them to Under The Producers. The real producers to understand, like when I, when I talked about countries responding to incentives, an individual cannot work eight hours in a day or 40 hours in a week or 60 hours in a week and get paid in something that I can print out of nothing and people that produce real hard value. Tend to get that faster in my experience than Finance professionals although Jesse and I both come from that traditional world, so we were able to figure it out. So others will too. But I do think that because those money food and energy filled form the building blocks and every other good as a derivative output of those that from our. If education is the key at least, in terms of our time and energy on a one-to-one basis for point-to-point, it's like that. Attica, like protect protect the most important, but I also think that there is something that my experience that those type of producers, get it because when you talk about printing money, in the problems of it, they live and breathe it every day. And it resonates more. There's one aspect that we kind of forgot about but it came up when it happened and and it ties into this is what the SPV stuff in the central point of failure, that the liquidity get dollars and into Bitcoin, and that whatever we call it circular economy or whatever. This like in my view there's gonna be this like pair between dollars gold and Bitcoin and it's that's like if you don't have a bank, if you don't have access to a bank, that's how a little trade and like meet space. And so I think this ties into all that, it's like that that has to start forming whether it's companies or we talked about, like, the food stamps, like, there needs to be this way because the reality is like the banks or there's counterparty risk, whether it's the dollar or the CBC and you're going to want money that you can hold or gold or the dollars in like, That I feel like will be a function of this and the sooner we can get ahead of it and create that gives us that soft Landing versus everything, going tits up. And then you're just like, don't have money in your bank because that's the reality of the situation right now. Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead. And I think, I think so, we're sort of talking around, like, the reality of money having, you know, incredible Network effects and shelling Point phenomenon to it because the best money wins. Like when if you're a producer and you're looking for the right place to store your value because you've created a surplus and you want to preserve that you want the best savings vehicle, the best savings technology. If you're an individual who is trying to figure out how to navigate a time of change and high inflation, you're going to try to figure out. Okay, what do I trust like what can I store my value in and when it comes to the brics Nations, trying to feel Each other out of like, okay, should we do this based on gold? Should we do it in oil? What kind of, you know, terms, can we agree on what kind of neutral Reserve asset? Can we use to settle trade in? It's whichever one they can control and own and rely on to not be messed with and gold has been that. But obviously we know that the Bitcoin has that and more because you know, the Gold has its Achilles heels in terms of its centralization because of its physicality and Bitcoin doesn't have that problem. And obviously Bitcoin can be connected to the internet where as gold has to sit in a vault and then be connected. Clunk Ali? And then you're trusting that connection to the internet based on you know some third party or you know in the brics case the word of the CCP. Do you going to trust that? And conduct trade based on promissory notes for gold held in a vault, controlled, by the CCP, or you going to eventually opted for a greater portion of trade being conducted in Bitcoin instead and then Parker was talking earlier about how, you know, like an energy net producer is more likely to get it quicker or see the connection here. And Russia is already doing that. You know like there are indications Marty you We know more about this than any of us about Russia starting to mine Bitcoin. We think secretly quietly, using their excess oil and gas or stranded oil and gas production to turn that into money via Bitcoin. And then then you have it on your balance sheet and then you start to appreciate its qualities. It's you know what, it's adding to your treasury. Reserve strategy just by existing in the Properties. It's bringing to the table and then that educational process that becoming more comfortable with this asset process that individuals and countries have to go through in order to, you know, and fully Embrace Bitcoin. Russia is in the early stages of that they're probably ahead of, you know, every other major economy in the world just because of their position being cut off from Swift and being a major oil and gas producer Who's who Marty you should tell us what, you know about this? But my understanding is, they are most likely engaging in some sort of Bitcoin mining at a state level. At this point, Yeah, it's a very poorly kept secret in the industry for context. Anybody listening to this, I'm pretty heavily involved in the mining industry, sit on the board of cathedra and, and the co-founder standard Bitcoin, where we mine Bitcoin here. And we have really good relationships with the Asic manufacturers and the Brokers that sell their machines and it's again, pretty poorly. Kept secret that the Brokers are openly saying. Yeah, we're doing more business in Russia, these days than the US. And that's sort of Out of floor on the pricing for Asics and even beyond that. When the sanctions hit in 2021 or 2022, excuse me, early. Last year, Russia, essentially seized a bunch of mining assets that are owned by American companies Compass most famously with their with their partnership with bit River over in Russia. That was a hosting facility. And so the state confiscated, those miners that were owned by Americans It is presumed that they're mining Bitcoin within then. On top of that, there was a publicly announced a partnership between the gazprom and bit River and gazprom's essentially like a state-owned energy producer. I guess there's like a thin veneer of privatization there but I think we can assume that. It's the state's heavily involved with gazprom gazprom and B River, engage in a partnership to do more money. So yes, I think it's very you can Assume that Russia is mining Bitcoin, add Venezuela to that list. There's rumors of her on obviously with the disclosures that were brought forth with the bankruptcy proceedings from Celsius and block 5. We learned that the, the kingdom of Bhutan up in the Himalayas is mining. Bitcoin has been for three years, throw all Salvador in the mix. So at the macro level, you have these nations energy rich, Nations Russia, with gas Kingdom of Bhutan. With hydroelectric, El Salvador with geothermal Venezuela with oil and gas as well. That's happening at the macro level. But again, one thing we want to do here is highlight reel business cases as well. It's also happening at the micro level. So it's standard Bitcoin. We're seeing a lot of good reception to our business model from utilities companies. We essentially go to rural areas up in Northern Tennessee, Southern Kentucky. That have the substations with excess capacity. That's just sitting there laying dormant because a large manufacturing facility has moved out of the neighborhood because of globalization. And so we're able to come in and say, Hey you can get more energy, delivered to your substation, produce more electricity will buy that from you and utilities companies that we work with love that because in the TV, a Tennessee Valley Authority, which operates the grids down here, they The utilities operate in a coop fashion and they have a mandate to keep prices low for residents by, uh, showing up and buying that excess capacity at the substation that allows them to get more energy from the TV, a, which allows them to get better bulk pricing. So they get lower pricing on that, that energy. We're providing the more revenue on the back end and then they're also able to stay true that our mandate to keep prices low for rate payers in their local communities. So it's a win-win-win For everybody, we get lower electricity costs as miners. The coop is being as efficient as possible with the substation and has in its in its county or city or town. And then the rate, payers the residential consumers are paying less for their electricity and to your point Parker like once the energy companies, get it. Like that's going to be a massive movement here for Bitcoin. It's happening. Like the utilities companies that we work with, really get it. They're seeing the amount of Revenue we're producing as a Benny in the amount of Bitcoin that we're making, they're like, oh, that's this is a little unfound Revenue. Untapped Revenue. That is, that is very profitable for these guys and our thesis is that eventually the utilities companies we'll just incorporate mining as a load service within their operational stack, they'll be able to vertically integrate better than we ever can, because they own the substations. And then on top of that, you had like, the software layer, the companies like sonoda that are really. So that's the beautiful thing about Bitcoin is you. Have many aspects of network, the hard asset, the peer-to-peer Network. And then now with this layered scaling solution, particularly with lightning it's allowing instant final settlement transactions. And so what you're seeing snow to being the example of a company, really trying to lead the charge and Satoshi energy as well in the areas going to minors that have these. These deals with utilities companies and working with utilities companies to accept Bitcoin. Over the lightning Network as payment to reduce their settlement risk. So right now, if I am a large energy consumer and I have a big Energy bill that's typically, and 30, and 60, and that comes a lot of capital risk for the utility provider, snow just coming in saying, hey, we can actually use Bitcoin particularly over the lightning Network to reduce that settlement time to instantly, we can pay you out once a day once a week, once a month instantly, you don't have to wait for wires to settle or anything like that. And the beauty of their Lucian. Is that the utility at first is not have to actually accept Bitcoin, use the lightning Network similar? How strike does it to initiate a final settlement payment and then the utility can just convert that the dollars and hold those dollars in their account, but the thought is over time. Again, when they see the success of the mining companies, expect success of Bitcoin. They'll make the intentional decision to start taking a percentage of those payments in Bitcoin. You'll pay over the lightning network instead of converting 100% of that. Dollars, you'll move it up to 10% and 20% eventually when we hyper Bitcoin eyes to 100%. And so that's where we are now down to Parker's Point earlier of like, once we get these core pillars, energy in food, particularly on to a Bitcoin standard is when we will see, when we will see Bitcoin sort of pervasive throughout Society in the money, the most people use. And when I'm seeing in the mining industry, and at the software layer, Companies, like Snowden Satoshi energy. It's happening, slowly, but surely yeah, one of the things that that just made me think of was. So we started this on yelling and and the, you know, saying that the reserve currency status of the US dollar should be expected to decline and prepare for that world and we Logan provided the context. Got an article is the house Financial Services committee, she said, okay, but you know, you just mentioned and What kind of one of the ideas that I talked about, was people respond to incentives? And when I think about these incentives, it's like we know, you know, Jesse walkthrough. I we know they're going to have to print a lot more money and and separately Russia getting cut off a Swift and effectively weaponizing the dollar. But if I break that down to the principle it is this whole system is based on trust and somebody just invoked T' that trust and said, you're no longer a good citizen in my world and, you know, sometimes that can be, you know, kind of weak start talking about, you know, Russia mining Bitcoin or China mining Bitcoin sometimes people can interpret that as like we're championing, you know, we're taking a view on Russia as a state actor and, you know, cheering them on. We're simply explaining incentives and When you talked about the utility in Tennessee, their customer left, they had a problem Bitcoin could be a solution. We talked about, you know, a pipeline blowing up, they no longer have customers, Bitcoin can be a solution, not just to the currency side. But that when you think about all of these, like it's not just companies, it's not just countries, the same two principles of incentives, apply to the individual, we know they're going to print dollars. And Canadian truckers got cut off from their bank accounts, right? But then if you're you know a u.s. high net worth individual, you're thinking well I'm not a Canadian trucker and that's not my problem, but then Silicon Valley Bank fails and you got 10 million dollars sitting in a bank account it's the same principle, right? It's they're going to print a lot more of this thing and this whole thing is based on trust and how do I know they're good for it, right? And so that's That all these things, whether it's an individual, whether it's a company, whether it's a state level utility, or whether it's a country, it all comes back to those two principles, they're going to print my money. That's a problem for me. And the current system is not just bad for that fact, but whether something's being weaponized on purpose and, and that could be some, you no business getting cut off or cancelled but more realistically, it's insolvent Banks and Fifty thousand dollar, FDIC Insurance limits, which we functionally know are de facto guaranteed, but still, you can either take the action to protect yourself and to respond to incentives or wait until it's too late. Yeah, good. Good example. From this past week I think, is this past week is the Santa Monica, firefighters pension, and their allocation, and there's something really interesting. You, you, you, you say Bitcoins not an IQ test, it's a common-sense test and as you get closer, Until like the proof of work, you talked about like the person creating or harvesting the food or the energy. If you don't produce it or it costs more you have to charge more in. If you don't get it delivered, you don't make your money. You have to fire people that you're as close as you can get to the you know increase in pricing to be able to deliver and specifically with a pension, they're upside down. Right now, we know people are living longer and they have to deliver on these. And these individuals are the embodiment like the NFL player that's out there in the market, putting their life at risk. And they're trying to figure out how do they like actually live longer when it comes to their, they're putting this Capital, you know, monthly or whatever, from a pension perspective and they have to look at the incentives and figure out how do they actually make it whole when they retire? And the math doesn't add up to Jesse's point, so it's like they're the first step in the pension system because the academics aren't going to do it first. And so I think over time that's what we'll can we're talking about. How do we see this like transition? And it's like that close as you can get to truth and proof of work of this real world, application of my time and effort is Being devalued every day in this thing might actually work and that's the first step that was the most interesting thing about the Santa Monica. I don't know if you guys listen to the guy he's like he actually they're like self cussing in it. They're like not doing a lot very little. I think / individuals like a dollar. I don't know how many people are part of the pension, but the idea was like, we should buy this because if we find out, it's not real, like screw it, we didn't lose anything. But if we find out, it's something we should, you know, we should really like look into this. And that was the first step and I love that like idea versus, you know, a being in and buy. Hundreds of millions or whatever. The number is, it look, let's just play around with this because we all know, like, once you look at this, you have some skin in the game. Everything Changes. Yeah. To your point. Yeah, I think Parker said it perfectly like, the incentive works on, like a fractal, it works the same for the individual as it does for the state actor. Which is part of the beauty of the incentive system of Bitcoin in the assurances. The network provides because the state actor just made up of individuals, right? And and Parker's framing of Bitcoin is a solution to a problem. Like you only adopt Bitcoin. If it is a solution to a problem that you are facing, whatever. If that's an individual institution or a state, it has to be a solution and so it was a solution for Michael sailor. When he realized that he had a melting Ice Cube on his balance sheet. And if it is solution for a producer who feels uncomfortable with like, you know, the hard work that they are doing at a physical level and and then, and then they're receiving a piece of Somebody else can print and they don't like that, that you can be a solution for that. I think that's a funny observation about like it is common sense like Bitcoin is a common sense test and Parker, I think that could be part of why people from our backgrounds, like are still kind of behind the curve on in terms of appreciating Bitcoin because we spend so much of our time in that like, abstract relationship with with money, as a number on a screen that you're manipulating and In Excel rather than, you know, a farmer who exchanges a tomato for a piece of paper. It makes it more concrete that way, but yeah, Bitcoin has to be a solution and it is a solution for so many of these problems that we've just start walkthrough, you know, it's it's the full gamut of what money is in society and what it has to fulfill in order for that particular money to win. Store value, is where it all begins and it's where everything is I'm really like you become the medium of exchange because you're the best store value and therefore people want to hold that asset and then they start to transact in that asset and exchange value in those terms. But store values is the bread and butter. It's the whole kit and caboodle of what a money needs to be good at. And we are now entering an era where, you know, Ray Dahlia has this excellent piece that the Aging, World Order where he the first chapter just walks through 600 years in monetary history, showing how every 80 to 100 years. The global Reserve currency the preferred currency of the world, has an arc, a full ascent and and Decline, and then is replaced by the next superpower and that, you know, through the history of Western Civilization. Mission. This, the superpower of the moment is the money that can be trusted, right? And you can save in those terms because, you know, that it's going to be there, five years from now. And that's why people use that money. And of course, that creates an incentive for the country, that controls that money, to issue more debt to borrow and then that that position of power. And then the Ability to borrow against your, your Stellar standing as the world's superpower and the strength of your balance sheet, undermines the strength of your balance sheet over time and leads to the inevitable decline of that monetary system. And it's all based on, you know, what money can people who are all over the world, trust to store value a year from now, five years from now. And then now here's here's this thing that nobody controls that has that we know, has these properties that make it the best store of value Over a four-year period in particular when compared to any other fiat currency out there where they're making more of Exponentially making more of that currency. So it's the solution to so many different problems but the most important solution is, what store of value can you trust as an individual, a company or a country. And I think Parker is right, that it'll be a part of the mix during this period of change. Maybe it's a decade or two as people start to realize you know, this Bitcoin thing is 1% of my portfolio has been doing really great and I'm starting to get really comfortable with it and I love that nobody can take it from me. And so I'm going to start making that 5% of how holding my savings. My value as a as a country or whatever. And then eventually that shelling Point encompasses a much larger portion of people's savings to the point that it becomes the de facto preferred. Store of value Asset for the world. Yeah. I think you know, kind of a couple things that you hit on there Jesse and then I'll tie it into something. Michael said that like this common-sense idea, kind of both. You guys, you know, kind of touched on that a couple of themes that I try to pull out as money doesn't grow on trees. Like that is common sense. Everybody, you know, who's 20 years or older, probably heard that growing up. Certainly, if you're older than 40 money, doesn't grow on trees. And there ain't no such thing as a free lunch. Those are common sense principles. And while Society at large, kind of became lulled to sleep, to believe that it's true. If the government does it, it's still not true, money doesn't grow on trees and there ain't no such thing as a free lunch. And if they are printing I'm money that you know, kind of the way the I frame it as people cannot convert their time into something that does not store Valley because it literally cannot allow them to sustain themselves. Like if you go pro do you work for 40 hours and whatever you convert those 40 hours? And that's value, delivered to others. If that does not store value into the future, that is not sustainable because you ultimately need Goods to sustain yourself, you need food, you need energy, you needed a roof. Had you need Healthcare and that kind of, when you tie that common-sense principle into this idea, that people have a problem in there, out there searching for it, something you said Michael, which was, you know, someone bought a little bit, you know, like maybe and I think that, you know, especially for people who are on the fence, it's like that is perfectly rational, logical and reasonable. And that I like to tell people that Like when I first bought Bitcoin for the first time and I think this applies to virtually everybody is that the first time that you buy Bitcoin. It feels like you're setting money on fire, feel like letting go of it and then you almost like want to get it back. And then you're like okay like it's gone like we're going to we're going to ride this one out but necessarily that is really where your Journey Begins. You have to have some skin in the game, some exposure to then be able to experience from that point forward as Time to start to understand more like your real Bitcoin Journey starts, you know, functionally after the time that you first bought back, when they can't be intuitive until you hold it till you're exposed to it, until you start to observe everything in the world as a bit coin holder and going deeper down the rabbit hole. But but it does come down to that. I couldn't agree more. It's like something has to store value in order for you to convert your time and value into it. It and it and it and it doesn't make Bitcoin easy, but it is ultimately a common sense test yet. It's almost too little is better than too much because you buy too much and you get the price decline and you get burned. If you like this is all upon Z versus you get a little bit and you start to look at it more. The other one that ties into like a personal note was you know mother-in-law retires and this is like real trying to tie back to like what is the real pain and incentive and you you work your whole life and then you create Your retirement plan, and you get your financial advisor, which is a different story that they won't even let you touch it. I'll tell you to rebalance, but you get your retirement. You like, plan out, you know, adjusted, year-over-year, property, taxes vacations. And every year, you're looking like that retirement might not get me to especially if we're living longer. And so, you know, over the years, you have enough of these discussions at the dinner table and you find out, you know, she's been stacking. But it's like that conversation along with just the real like seeing the in the increasing. Goods, whether it's, you know, just the Staples at the grocery store, just going on vacation of the plane ticket. Like, those things are starting to creep into the world, and that's part of all this is like, how do you get out? Like, there's an actual just solution to it. It's not really that complex. Yeah, that is weird. Another thing to to about like about the solution thing, I think we often forget that. This isn't a thing that every individual has to figure out like, that's not how this is going to work and an It is pretty stupid but an ant colony is very smart and humans are find Solutions and figure out like the best way to do things in a similar, sort of fashion, like it individual experimentation until they figure out. Okay? This is a good model that works. That's and now there's a solution and everybody copies that. And you know that's how we got the 60/40 portfolio. It was a winning model over the last 40 years. People are experimenting now. With like, okay, what's the solution to this moment? In time? We bitcoiners think we have a solution. And every, every having that comes in every bull market that happens, we get more proven more and more, right? And so, you know, this is the solution that we are really kind of the experimenters, the test case of should Bitcoin be, you know, my solution to this era of inflation and a We succeed and as our venture to store our value and Bitcoin is proven, right? Everyone else is going to figure it out because it gets easier to realize that this is a working model a solution as the number of people who are benefiting from it increases. So you know, I think that's like it's an organic process at an individual level but collectively. As a species, we learn by watching what is successful and what is not and copying that. And so if Bitcoin has value has properties, that make it better, that will bear out and people will adopt the winning strategy. Yeah, I think that, you know what, that made me think about was that this idea that its objective and, you know, early Bitcoin adopters are the ones that are seemingly to the outside world taking on more risk. But functionally everyone for the first time that they buy Bitcoin, or adopt Bitcoin and then learn more and go down that curve, their their knowledge of an objective set of facts like all value Subjective. But there are objective evaluations as to what one good is going to do relative to another to solve a certain problem. You know, so money solves a different problem than a while and so if I'm looking at two things and saying is this going to be a better form of my there, an objective set of facts that will that will ultimately lead people consciously or subconsciously to the right answer. I think the name of the podcast is so great. The last trade that you you guys came up with because it's like when you when you figure it out and you do not figure it out the first time you buy Bitcoin you figure it out. T plus 1 2 3 4, You Know, years down, down the road you you functionally like I'm never selling you know and I like to say there's people who buy Bitcoin to get more dollars and then there's people who are accumulating Bitcoin because they know they're going to need it to get. Food and gas. Now all of those people who figured that out didn't figure it out or I don't want to say never but let's just anchored to a very rare human that they figured the whole thing out. And I think it's probably practically impossible. You actually have to own Bitcoin before it can become intuitive that Every person on that descent Bob echoing for the first time, right? And and that that it is actually a cathartic liberating kind of sense of just state or Freedom that when you realize, I don't have to be a second full-time Trader after my, you know, full day of producing value for others. Is complete. It you're like oh shit is the last trade like this is it and I think that you know we are we what Jesse was explaining of kind of like you kind of thinking about this progression it's like I can't conceive of you know, when 5% of the world figures this out, if we anchored to the fact that the five those people will have access to more knowledge than the other 95% and they will have wealth to Store that is going to drag everybody else along. And I raised that point because it's like the telephone, you know, a lot of people are going to have to consciously consider Bitcoin. Those are the people that are that are going to benefit the most. Those are the people that are most active and not, you know, reactive to to everybody else's move. But just like the telephone and you can pick up the phone and talk to somebody across the world and it's magic and you don't need to know how that works. You're just going to observe well, this thing storing is value and everything else isn't, I can use it without understanding it. Everyone is adopting Bitcoin today. Generally has to consciously consider these things but the vast majority of people in the world to adopt Bitcoin will not, because it will be done, there will be complete and everybody will be, everyone else's hands will. I don't want say Force but it like money is consensus. You have to have the form of money that that I'm willing to accept, and I got to be able to sell Goods for the form of money that I demand in the market. That is necessarily interested objective as necessarily causal that you. And I have to agree on what that is and it's not right it's not random it is objective and might be relative but it is objective. Yeah we're going to have this problem. If we're right in 10 years from now people are going to be like shit who knew Coin was like all I should have done was just who knew we would land on bitcoin as the solution. I guess that's what we're doing now and that's going to be the experience for most people out there. Just like I don't know why Bitcoin one but I guess that's what we're doing. And then they'll be on a Bitcoin standard, well, to steal, man, this argument, I do think we have to address what I think is the elephant in the room, which is this is we believe the best store value Asset that has ever existed in human history. However, the first 14 years have been riddled with extreme volatility that is unprecedented in many markets consistent volatility over cycles and so just take that into consideration in addressing that fact because it becomes counterintuitive from people who are just looking at this from the sidelines and they see the volatility and they can intuitively grasp that it can be a store value Asset. Yeah, I mean I think that first, I like to put it back to people and I say the empirical evidence says that it stores value over time, so that person has to explain the reality as to why, you know, and that is ultimately, part of the answer is that volatility is not mutually exclusive with a Goods ability to store value and that Another way that I like to relate it to people is assume the not assume but let's just take an illustrative example that the entire world is going to adopt it quick. Let's say a maximum of one percent of people have any material exposure to bitcoin. And I would Define materiality is five to ten percent as their savings. That's not people have $20 on coinbase, so you might see, there's 100 million people or 200 million people, but But we're talking like five ten percent of their savings and of those people in even smaller percentage, I would say get it, like really that it's intuitive to it. So 1%, let's just use that as an illustration. Luster of example, if Bitcoin adoptions going to go up by 10 x, that means that 9 out of every 10 people who now own Bitcoin are pricing it for the first time and you've priced gas. Every week probably for your entire life and here you are pricing something for the first time. So when I talk about that you know first time you buy Bitcoin, it feels like you're light and money on fire almost necessarily. That's also the first time your pricing Bitcoin and that over time, your understanding of it grows. So when someone looks at it and says okay, if I can understand why a form of money that can't be printed would in theory, hold value over time and if I have to live in the objective reality, the Bitcoin has, in fact, Stored value over long periods of time despite its volatility. And if I can accept that the first time somebody's pricing a good, they're inherently going to be operating with less information than from that point forward. I can in aggregate start to accept how in total. I can start transitioning a percentage of my wealth, how that small percentage could mute in the volatility of Could be muted by everything else like everything else literally that I might own my portfolio, it starts to become hyper logical. Like you have to be like actively trying to hide from the answer. If you're if I think if you start to go down that logical kind of thought process to deal kind of across four different kind of logical basis or realities as to how something as volatile as Bitcoin could be could ultimately in The future, when the entire world has it and it's facilitating 99.9% of all trade, why that thing in the future will be perfectly stable and why when it's scantily owned by 1% of the people. And everyone's trying to figure out what this really is or isn't. But having to coexist with explaining reality that they get there, Yeah, I think there's a there's a it's also like you know, to your point of playing the steel man, there's an Insidious part of like the inflation of the dollar that like, it's very slow and how it erodes its value. And so, it's just, you know, before it's obviously accelerating but that recognition, especially if it's been your, you know, currency or your unit of account your whole life. And I always anchor back to, I don't know why, but like covid. It's like that could have never happened until it did. It's like the dollar. Never not be of the dollar until it is and like, I always feel like, well, if that happened, like why is it such a big leap? Like those two things are so drastic and like, think about being locked down and just be stuck somewhere or not. There's just something about that unlock that everybody thinks especially when you talk to somebody, then I'd say just like the dollar like you're insane. And the reality is this happens all over the world. And so yeah, the the unit of account aspect is interesting. Yeah. And the other, the point that you brought up there to is Because it's the idea. I wrote an article called Bitcoin is not a hedge that's like we talked about inflation, inflation is going up in Bitcoins going down. If you have not listened to this podcast or picked up the Bitcoin standard and there's inflation in your life, you can't you you might recognize you have a problem, you can't understand the Bitcoin is part of the solution and so the path by which people come to understand that Bitcoin is a solution in to find the signal. Is not something that you just, you know. It's, it's got to find you or you have to find it. If you've never heard about Bitcoin and you're experiencing hyperinflation in Argentina Bitcoin can't be a solution to you. Now, over time, more people do hear about it, more people do ultimately adopt it. And that's the other reality, which is a question that people who have that challenge that you were still Manning. It is, if you accepted adoption is in, Increasing white that the reframing of the question is, why does Bitcoins volatility not prevented option? Because it's not just a rhetorical question, there are answers to it. It's the other side of the same coin. And, but, but they have to accept, well adopt, it is 14 years. People do seem to be increasingly adopting it, Why is that? Why? Why does the volatility not prevent adoption? Yeah. And on top of that, be why does volatility not prevented option? And also why this volatility decreasing over time, you know, the, the peak to bottom draw Downs for every major cycle we've had as decreased. I think, the first major bear market for Bitcoin was like, a 91% drawdown. And then I Get the exact numbers but eighty five eighty one and I think we just had like a 78% bear, a bear Market, drawdown. So extrapolate that forward like at what point in time are you comfortable with that level of volatility? Like at what point in time? Is that okay for you? Is it 20% draw Downs over a year? Is that a sufficient level of stability for you to adopt it? Because that's where we're headed. And you can use this And see when it gets there as a stable part of your savings or treasury, or you can ask the questions that Parker is asking about like, okay? So volatility isn't stopping adoption and people who are willing to tolerate the volatility because they included as a small portion of their portfolio and everything else. Newts that volatility those people are seeing massive gains over a 40 plus year time. Frame. So at what point are, what point does it become something that you're willing to touch you? Do you want to ride the volatility knowing that the volatility is decreasing over time and start early and see massive appreciation of that Porter of your portfolio or perfectly reasonable? You can wait and, you know, in 10, 20 years, whatever it is. When the volatility is is under your threshold and negligible, really? Then you can adopt Opt it. So it's up to everybody and everybody has their own barometer about like what they are willing to accept. And I think that I think that volatility is a, is a an excuse, like, people don't adopt Bitcoin because of the volatility. So they claim. When I think that if they spun it around a different way and thought about it as am I willing to accept volatility, if I get a 4X return Over a four-year period? Most people would say yes, I'm willing to take that proposition so then it's not really that volatility is too uncomfortable. It's that they are actually afraid that that volatility doesn't go up because they haven't learned Enough you know that that it doesn't bottom at some point in their they're uncomfortable with with the staying power of Bitcoin. So yeah, actually, however you cut it actually re I just thought about this the other day. I reject like the framing of Bitcoins not a Bitcoin. Like the individuals I said, Bitcoin is in a hedge against inflation. I know why you wrote the article because you were talking to people as a price is going to 65k. And then I went to 25 and they printed more money and then the like what happened. But I have this Benchmark of March 2020 when everything fell out. And that's been in my mind of like every return because that's when the, that was the only time I really pleaded with individuals and like family, like you need to buy because we knew what was coming. After they locked, everybody down and everything crashed and when you go back and look at like all assets, even the best stocks or like maybe 2 to 3 x at best Bitcoin still like eight times, what the bottom was when everything fell on 20/20 and that's a perfect hedge against inflation, they printed the money. Yeah, I get it. But my point is no, I know your point. But I just feel like a clerical down the audience of like kind of like the idea of like that, the Bitcoin is not a hedge. I frame it as Bitcoins, the solution to inflation, does it permanently eliminates the ability to print money and that if you do not get to the point that, that is the signal? It cannot be a hedge for you like because you either know, or you don't and if you know, then you're like, oh this is, this is this is it, you know? And, and that doesn't mean that somebody gets that Point perspective of Bitcoin being intuitive in the solution to inflation overnight. But it's like, I don't know if the right term is barbell, it's one of those extremes either. You don't have the knowledge and it's like this, ether nothingness. How could, how could it hedge inflation? You know? Or you figured out why people are adopting it, why? The volatility is not preventing it and you know, even in that kind of Yeah, because I do agree. It's like, you know, people have to pay attention to this overtime and I have to kind of observe, you know, how different assets respond to different benchmarks and that March 12th kind of educated a lot of people about kind of either side of that. But that, you know, people look to different Goods as Hedges. They look to real estate as a hedge because some, you know, rents are going to go up in a manner more dollars but it does come, you know, it's like Bitcoin. As one thing we haven't talked about, I know Jesse talks about this quite a bit, but this idea of correlation that is like ultimately and even to your point. Why Bitcoin from that 824? Has out performed everything else. So it has functionally been a great hedge to inflation. Is it's the only thing that is ultimately uncorrelated to the dollar because it's the only thing competing with the dollar and that is that is the distinction that I was trying to make. It's like nothing else is Really competing with the dollar in a credible way for the future of money and I'm someone and I recognize that there's disagreements, not necessarily the Tribulus you guys, but that I don't think gold. Like the dollar in my view is like somebody figured out how to print more golden it's called dollars and that gold already failed and the the current construction of the dollar system. Is that evidence of its failure and that that in appearance, gold might be trying to reclaim that, but it's like, no. The dollar as a technology is what broke that system and it wasn't ever going to be fixed until something better came along and I was Bitcoin so good on that. That. No, this is a interested your thought on. I agree completely. And and this is something I've come around to. We had Larry on the pot, not the last pot before I love Larry to. Yeah, Larry's. He's our gold-bug. He's our gold-bug / Bitcoin. We like our goal bucks. Yeah, of course offically like yeah but something that really resonates like I don't think like a 65 or seven-year-old needs 100% BTC. I don't know, but I don't think anybody theoretical there but the idea of like, well how do they protect their wealth in retirement? And the idea of this volatility and let's say they have 30 40, whatever. The number is, what's the other percentage? It's not dollars, right? I think we all agree. There. Is it equities? Is it gold? Is it real estate? Like, that's where I see the gold I'm curious. Like, where do you see gold plan B's? At least? You know, I mean, they can't print more gold. Right. But they what would you want your grandfather wildly? But just like, I mean this came up before. Yeah. Try settling oil with gold. Like, that's really hard. Tried, buying anything directly with that, that good. So functionally as a ability to facilitate Commerce and as a tool to money, being a tool to get out of the things, I don't think that if I was that individual, that I would say own gold because Is they probably don't understand that either. You know, like I for, I was somebody who personally had to go down the gold Rabbit Hole to understand why goal was money on my Ascent to understanding why Bitcoin was money. Now, everyone has to do that and I think that in practice most people that decide to go down that Journey, they might start to see why gold was money, but they're quick, they will quickly accelerate to the point of understanding why Bitcoin is going to do that. If they get to the point of like from fresh, I'm not like it's hard for gold bugs to get to bitcoin because I think psychologically they were so right about the problems. And it's very difficult to on anchor or D anchor from being wrong about the solution that is a very different mindset to recognize or this is my perspective. Most people do not understand why gold emerges money over thousands of years because they never consciously considered it. If starting today they started to go down that path to understand why goal was money. They will very quickly get to why Bitcoin is money. They will be anchored to have In spent years being wrong about solution. And so I think that, you know what, I would ultimately say as most people who have have savings and have created that have so and created it via something that they know well. And so I would say, you know, if it's like I'm using my dad's example. Yes. Surely, my dad does not need 100% Bitcoin, probably doesn't even need 80. One Bitcoin, maybe not 70%, but he's a real estate developer. It's the thing that he knows best, it's his profession. So his ability to allocate to real estate is is something that would probably make more sense than gold. And so, I think that it just anchors back. It's going the answer going to be different from from every person, but it's going probably to Anchor to the things that they know best and that they can have an actual In or judgment about because it's difficult for me to believe that somebody that doesn't have that basis in gold is going to both figure out why gold is money and not figure out why Bitcoin is 10x. 100x thousand X better solution to the same problem. So I'm smiling because this is the first time I think we've done a lot of like agreeing the past few episodes and we've been needing to get like a little that contentious but not I don't I don't agree simply because like the counterparty risk of real estate or any other asset that the Son knows. So, at least the gold can be traded for goods, and you can't make more gold and theoretically the fixed amount of gold similar to be TC in real-world. Goods, would be able to be transferred for more over time. So, if that person holding 30% 40% in your dad's case, holding 60% BTC the other 40%. Like, if he has SF real estate or whatever the state decides to take it, now, he's out the gold. There's a lot of This is new on the the gold stuff but it specifically for older individuals. I really be the downside that the last part is if your if your father or somebody that's older has a retirement and they aren't producing net income, that drawdown kills them Like what do they do? Yeah and I need if they need to put their wealth somewhere right and I think what I'm what I'm alluding to is that money and everything else solve different problems. And so I would view more like gold is like a hedge to does Bitcoin fail, you know? But like you've already gracht Bitcoin but you're like shit. There's some chance of this doesn't work. Now, I need money. It's going to be this thing, gold. I don't you know because again, If I'm just getting into the psychology of the, you know, thinking about real people there basis and understanding why I'm basically saying you start a 0, you go down the gold Rebel, you're going to figure it out and then you're gonna be like oh that thing Bitcoin like which one of these two things is going to store value better and they're going to arrive at the Bitcoin answer but, you know. Yeah. And so I'm thinking more from like a investment allocation perspectives, like I need money. And it's like, I got dollars, I've got Bitcoin. So those are my two monetary goods and I need some other allocation of an Investment Portfolio. One of the funny things I'll just share. I don't know if I've mentioned this, but this, this was just random. I thought about it. When you, when you brought it up and I brought up my kind of dad's real estate investor. One of the ways that I got my dad on bitcoin, he were sitting at the at the kitchen table and he goes, you know, the thing about real estate is It's a it's not liquid but it's there. I was like yeah you know you know the thing about Bitcoin is it's not really there but it's liquid that was a good mom. Look how I go. Whoa he just kind of sat there for a second. We're both saying the same thing. I think the time scales are, what's different? Because I think you're unique and your perspective of understanding Bitcoin and jumping directly from there. I don't think as Bitcoin monetizes that happens directly because whether we like it or not, the volatility is real and it scares the shit out of people. And so like that allocation has to take time and to the point of like, it just becoming normalizing. I go directly there, they may not even, they won't go to Gold. These are just going to be Bitcoin, but I don't think that happens overnight. And so when it's like central banks and people's, you know, No careers are on the line and there's a trade of. I need something that can't be printed. Bitcoin will be a part of it, but I think gold is a stepping stone for it. I mean, again, if we apply the same incentive to work across the Spectrum, logic that we used earlier for Bitcoins incentives, working for an individual in the nation state. I mean, we're anchoring to that and we're looking at countries like China, Russia, India accumulating gold over the last two decades that would sort of be a nod towards what you're saying. Well, I would counter to that, which is when I say like, there are objective ways that people evaluate what is going to do, what is going to store value better? Because you can store a portion of wealth and one good and a portion of wealth and other. But one is going to do the job better just objectively. We all agree on that here. Okay, that people can make the wrong decision and there are consequences. It's like China and India both went on the silver standard. Got wrecked and got rekt got their wealth expropriated. They got a lot less gold and they could have had had, they chosen, right? So, I think like there is this other kind of in parallel recognition to when we're talking about Bitcoin being the best form of money. It's like some in there being objective, truth, in the world and an objective set of facts. People can look at the same equation and choose wrong. But then there are consequences. And so, you know, it's like history repeating itself. Yeah, Boys. Still final China and India going in accumulating gold. We're getting Rod. Oh, I'm speaking at the meet up, that's about to start on panel, so we'll wrap it. So, oh, that's just my counter. Do you like China and India? Maybe they're choosing wrong. They're accumulating gold. People are selling their bags. China India. What if they're doing? Right. But isn't the treasuries at their? They're getting rid of or going to buy less Bitcoin in the future in the future. The gold will buy more Bitcoin but they were just converting to bitcoin right now. If they're converting the gold to bitcoin 10 years from now, they're gonna get a lot less Bitcoin than if they just converted. Those treasuries to pick whether and have more than ever, it is holding treasuries today better than G7 loyalists. You know like if you want to go down with that ship go ahead but brics countries are jumping and there you know putting their faith in gold But I think Parker's right that like if we're right about Bitcoin, there's the the futures of these three different assets dollars, gold and Bitcoin. They all diverge, you know, dollars goes down and terms of purchasing power exponentially gold goes sideways and Bitcoin exponentially increases in purchasing power, because it was properties and how early it is in the adoption curve. So, you know, Choose Wisely. Yeah. And I also, I wouldn't fault anybody Buddy for holding goal. I really wouldn't definite Larry. I mean I don't definitely I love Larry. Okay, we all love Larry here, I would like I would actually appreciate Larry on this coat this conversation to hear what his Yeah, I mean I think you made a good point there like to counter that I'm good like what was silver when China and India did adopt the gold standard could be gold this time and they don't adopt the Bitcoins together. Yeah. But adopted like 100 years. Yeah. See we have a guest coming to say hello. It says. I just want to say goodbye. Welcome To Say. Goodbye is the Meetup starting. Yeah, okay we gotta go. This has been an incredible episode of the last trade. Parker Lewis. Thanks for joining us. Got a book coming soon, right, coming up in a couple of months. Want to thank Matt and Rod at Bitcoin park for hosting us. Letting us take over their their podcast video here at the at Bitcoin Park. It's been a great couple days and looking forward to the meet up tonight. All right. Well, you get your ass up to that paddle. We'll see you guys next week. All right, appreciate you guys having me on. Yeah, thanks for joining us. See Suzy Parker.
Transcript source: fountain