The Last Trade E006: Drivers of Institutional Adoption and Understanding Custodial Risk, with David Thayer

What you're telling me is that music is about stuff and we're going to be left, holding the biggest bag of odorous extra ever assembled in the history of down test. 1974 1987 1297 2000 and whatever we're going to call this. It's all just the same thing over and over. We can't help ourselves. I say when we sell Awesome episode 6. The last trade gentleman is a lot going on in the world of Bitcoin and we are joined by David their executive advisor at Blackstone who has an interesting road to bitcoin and we're just riffing on it pre-record. Well, I was getting my audio fixed. You guys are pretty terrific on it, but I guess that stands as a good jumping-off point, David is your journey to bitcoin? And how you transition from the incumbent Financial World and found thick winter. Very passionate about her right now. Yeah, sure. Well it's a pleasure to be here and of course, I should preface it by just saying that obviously speaking on my own behalf, not a black stones but but as it so happens, a partner of mine at the firm and I both tend to lean libertarian were turned on to bitcoin way back in 2011 and it kind of immediately resonated because we serve understood the alternative fee on story and I forget the exact price of the time, you guys would know what it was eight cents or eight bucks or something. It's just so preposterously low but you know, the firm was growing and we had other distractions. So he neither of us did anything about it tragically? Even though we kind of set it. So the use case immediately and then it so happens that some years later, Alex, glassy and I, who am I known, by the way for years? I mean I was help helpful and launching hrf. And rights Foundation back. And I think 2005 got to tell you about Bitcoin and this is like the mid teens maybe and as you know, he was sort of the tip of the sphere when it comes to using Bitcoin. For the purposes of assisting dissidents around the world and his story as well done. Thank God, because it's done so much good for the world, but even then, I was sort of like, you know, swapping and comparing notes with with Alex. And yet still not investing partly. I'm sure out of Pride. And and finally in 2020 he gave me a good kick in the pants just like he sent me an article while in Alden. He's like, it's about stinking time. And thankfully the the pricing was fortuitous. So I got some of the upside but but you're forgetting who knew about it in 2011. It's kind of tragic that I didn't do more with it at the time, but while I'm on that point, I should mention as well that and I mentioned this Down in Miami outside hosted a function at the Bitcoin conference that you know, originally I was kind of think of it more as, as a financial investment. But now, perhaps you share this view, I see it as a social investment with a financial call option embedded because there are all many, there are already so many compelling, use cases that go well beyond investing in the hope that number go up. Yeah, it's a classic story that the three touch points over time with increasing regret and then acceptance. As part of that Journey, everybody has has their story for that. I mean, for me as a millennial, it was watching in 2013 seeing technology money, Digital internet, money shoot up in value and thinking and thinking I should have been on that. Like that was that was my bread-and-butter. My wheelhouse as an internet native I missed out and then you know that's the first point of regret for me and then you hear about it again and then he finally getting on the third time but you're right that it's it's an important aspect of Bitcoin that we don't talk enough about that by participating in Bitcoin. Your you are growing the network effect which benefits The whole world, it benefits, anybody who's in Bitcoin now, but it benefits, anybody who could benefit from Bitcoin in the future, which is everybody the entire world and especially everyone who's unbanked? Because if Bitcoin succeeds were elevating, the everyone in the world who's been cut off from 22, traditional finance and Banking and property rights. And so you participate in you coming to bitcoin even if you're, you know, upset that you should have In 2011, but you're prepared to get in and 2020 and 2021 that adds another node to The Social Network of Bitcoin. And, you know, adds to that exponential function of the network effects value. And that helps Elevate people who don't yet, know they need Bitcoin and we'll get the get here, 5 10, 15 years from now. Yeah one thing. Yeah David you shared in it I find you just hear heard of the past few years and if you have talked about it before but I don't think of it told you or maybe this group is 20/20 was almost like this this spiritual enlightenment that happened in that year where we talk about now like there's a lot of things happening in Marin I talk about this offline, a lot you see on Twitter, it's just like this Overton window moving but also in 2020 think about the amount of the number of people that came into the space and part of into Bitcoin and understood it and they had been hearing about it. There's a lot of people are like 16 17 18 but was 2020 when they really like put time and capital in and one of the common thoughts is it's because of you know M1 money supply the trillions that were printed and that was no mistake of was part of that. But what I found in my time and in like when we all were onboarding folks and capital was that, that Bitcoin you say. It's like it's not a an IQ test. Is a common sense test in the same function that it doesn't require supervision. Colleges requires time to look at the problem in the reality is most people don't have the time because they're, you know, the hamster wheel of life with their family or work in a net 2020. People are locked in a box and so, they were just able to look at this problem and understand like what I've been hearing about this. It's just fascinating that there was a lot of bad that happened in 2020, but at the same time, so many people were woken, like, woke up to what's happening. They'll never look backwards and to what happened before, or looking at the same way. Yeah, exactly. By the way, I should one think about it. Let me just share that. You know, I went to my first Bitcoin conference in Miami and I'm sure you guys were there in 2021 following my own little Surrey orange. Pilling thanks to Alex and he don't like being the nor merely I fly in. I figure, I'll just go right from the airport to the conference. So I have my luggage I'm wearing, you know, like normies not a sued but almost and you know, everybody's here in cargo shorts and flip-flops. And, you know, there's that line circling around the block and I've finally get into the venue and I'm like, okay, so where can I put my luggage there, like a luggage, like, what are you talking about? It's like, you know, I'm like preparing for like a corporate conference. And that was, that was sort of emblematic of, you know, the, the Wall Street nor me kind of waiting into the Bitcoin space. Well, that yeah, that's, yeah, that's true. People in Bitcoin are here to have here, to have fun because the they're casting off the old world and Don't want to wear a suit to a conference, sorry to interrupt Jesse when you know it also reminds me that give the contractors, obviously, I've gotten ever more professionals, the last couple had been just yelling wildly well-produced, I thought, and and so we're kind of. I hope meeting in the middle somewhere where as this piece is maturing and then other people are kind of entering the space as well as we as we grow. I think that's right. I think, I think the reality of this is as Bitcoin moves through the adoption, curve becomes More mainstream it. People are going to show up more and more professional. Because currently like early adopters, if you got in five plus years ago, you already have a little bit of fuck you money from that. And like you don't need anything. If your 2011 adopter, you're showing up to a Bitcoin conference to celebrate, you're not, you're not there to make deals probably and you know as as Time goes on and people are showing up to conferences because they're trying to, you know, Network or do something and professional seeing, I think that element will creep in and it will be a source of disappointment for early bitcoiners. You know as the culture shifts from the celebratory thing to a more professionalized environment. But that's that's the reality of successful adoption is you know, it becomes a professional. Part of the world. And, you know, there will always be that, that, that early set, but you know, Bitcoins for everyone. Yeah. Yeah. That able to later but the, the this BlackRock ETF in the follow-on ETF proposals filings are I think, to symptomatic, that Jesse right. I mean it's, you know, it's kind of going mainstream and it's reading this ripple effect, whereas like the Islands of the world think of crap. What are we doing here? And I'm sure, you know, I've heard the three of you say some of that as well. And yet by the same token is probably inevitable and maybe maybe it's worth to sort of accepting the inevitable and figure out that help us to go from here. I'm not sure. yeah, I think, I think there's two things to build on with this particular line of thinking, With Parker a couple of weeks ago, we sort of ran through the volatility question that people have like how can Bitcoin be store value if it's so vile tile? And I think Parker did a very good job of explaining. Why that can be the case and similar here with what you're saying earlier, Jesse is people get in early. See a lot of value creation as Bitcoin monetizes and most of the public looks at bitcoiners in the space and says, hey, you guys are just looking To get rich looking to pump your bags but you mentioned as Bitcoin Network effect, grows it benefits everybody. So I think that's another thing we can touch on is yes there are people who are early adopters, who will benefit massively from this but even the laggards will benefit from bitcoind option and the network effect that grows and then building on that obviously institutions, like BlackRock Fidelity. Citadel getting to the space will significantly increase the network effect on a liquidity. In Bitcoin and within the network. And so just building on those two things. Number one, why does Bitcoin as it appreciates benefit everybody and not just early adopters and what has been the Catalyst to push more institutions into the space? Yeah. Well, you know, the other thing, too. I know that you guys know this, but it's like, do we really resent? The guys who did the early pick-and-shovel work when it comes to, for instance, the internet. I mean, I'm sure there were some who, you know, resent that wealth. But I don't hear a lot about it and sort of social discourse and I'm hoping that the same goes for Bitcoin that over time people. Like, all right. Well, you know they're early adopters kind of one the brass ring but is that so bad? That's just kind of the American story. Yeah, I wrote a piece about this, a few months ago, this was, this was one of the final reservations. I had about like fully embracing Bitcoin future was everyone has this this feeling that? Because there's a finite Supply, whoever got, you know, a large chunk of it, early is going to be wealthy forever. You know, and their their future Generations will be you know the Billionaire's of 100 years from now and that's true to some extent. But the the American parallel of real estate in the west really helped provide an example for me of how this has played out in the past over the last couple hundred years and I'm in California, and then California land was originally distributed. David via the Rancho system that the Mexican Government set up and that was here. We're going to give you Mexican citizen that we trust 10,000 acres of Southern California and land. It's, you know, it's rugged and you're going to have to you're going to be our Steward, our, you know, legal representative, the landowner responsible for this large chunk of land and Southern California. And that's how the LA area. All of south southern California was distributed to landowners. And of course, now fast forward a hundred hundred hundred fifty years. There aren't any 10,000-acre ranches in California anymore because those successive Generations sold off big chunks of those ranches, all of those ranches in most cases, in order to fund their lifestyle because suddenly there were sitting on a very valuable asset and they wanted to, you know, enjoy that well, 'The so they sold large acreage and parcel that often to real estate developers. So that's how you know, large chunks of wealth distribute over time in our recent history in the in the American story. And that's how Bitcoin is going to go as well. yeah, love that analog Yeah, I happened to come across that, because I went to a wedding for, like, six generation descendant of one of the one of those Ranchos, you know, families. So he of the family that that area is named for. And and, and so there's all these personal stories of like, you know, in fighting and you know, having to pay the inheritance tax. Over time and how do you do that? You sell more land. So you know very human way to learn about that mechanic of wealth distribution over time. Yeah, one thing we talked about that is a little controversial in the spaces, they like the order of operations on, you know, the people come in and Bitcoin is for everyone and it benefits everyone. But the reality is the majority. There's a centralization of capital in North America and nodes and there's just a function of the money coming in, providing more liquidity and providing more value for everybody, including emerging market. And I think that kind of sometimes gets misdiagnosed as we need to go to Certain markets and it makes sense to go everywhere and you know, have it make sense to go everywhere and expend the resources in time. But from a prioritization standpoint to benefit everyone at least in my mind, there is this function of building the right products for Capital to flow in because of that liquidity profile benefits everyone. And this ties into you know the black rocks and Citadel and everybody get a space. The reality is the markets going to give us and we have to take it and then build around it redundant or resilient products this is partially why? He ran on Iraq but I think there's not enough discussion about in my mind. Where is the focus we have exchanges, we've had the exchanges that look similar for the past 10 years. We have custodians that will look very similar the past 10 years and it's like how do we bridge that Gap with institutions pensions endowments into making them feel comfortable, whether it's with the familiarity of like asset management, style product, Services client services, and so, I guess, maybe on that date. I'd be interested in kind of like yeah, give it your background, what it is, what's been the thought, you know, up to date again, not speaking from blackstone's perspective, but just within your peer group on this asset class and looking at it as a alternative asset amongst others, you know, any thoughts you can share their own what, you know, the past I think you said you had involvement since 11:00 but not really until 2020 having a personal allocation but any thing you can share on just your peers and their familiarity or feedback about Bitcoin. sure, well, I guess if you things that mean one, is that You do look and feel counts for something. And so I think as the space develops sort of the less Tech Centric interfaces that that one encounters the better because you know if it looks and feels too techie and I've noticed this in logging on to some other exchanges and custodians you know the greater the barrier and that goes for Rules as well. But you know when it comes to institutions, I think one of the things is here reputational and I think we've been done no favors by the conflation with defy. And some of the harsh shows that were totally predictable that we witnessed over the past couple of years. And so, will collectively have to do a better job sting pushing ourselves. I know that everyone on this call is doing their best. To kind of make that happen, but beyond that too. I think it's ultimately about Safety security. The sense that one's Bitcoin is stored appropriately and that gets a lot of attention as you can. Well, imagine the institutional space, no matter what the asset class and, you know, ultimately, if one looks kind of underneath the covers and reads between the lines, not, not to mix metaphors. But it's, you know, it's really about making sure that the individual decision makers are not making massive mistake. Aches. And so something does go south. It's not sort of like, how could you have allowed that to happen? It's not sort of a career risk. And so there's a lot of focus placed on that. And so is a space isn't as a community. I think as we roll out new products and this would go for Honor. A well that you're placing an emphasis on that, I think would do a lot to gain institutional acceptance and then yeah. As as The ETFs come online. Assuming they do, I think that's going to go a long way in that direction, even though you know there's a lot of hair on these things that may not be ideal. Maybe we can discuss that a little bit later but I guess offhand. Those are some things that I think would help us matures a space and then as we give past this defy thing and Bitcoin is able to distinguish itself, I think it will gain some acceptance and let's face it already in the late. Teens, I think was Harvard and some other well-known endowments had invested in Bitcoin. So it's not like on unheard of and the the Sharpe ratios and the lack of correlation traditionally except for I guess it was last year has really, you know, reflected well upon the space not to mention the the world beating returns over the course of the past 10 years. Yeah, that's actually a super fascinating on me. It's something that Parker we talk a lot about is like you don't want to be an application. It's not technically it's not a technology application because it looks that it's almost like the prettier it is. It's almost scarier that he can just all evaporate you know versus something that's tangible. And then that also remind me of I think over time or this next test decade will see a Resurgence in like the corner of the corner bank or the bank that is it'll look you know dealer will merge with the traditional bank or just be a No, like brand new firm, where you take something that's ephemeral, that's out there. And then you're able to put a for a face and a name, and the kind of a, you know, accountability to it, where you can actually sit and talk to somebody. Because right now, everything went digital on the banking side, but I think there's something there that will play over the course, the next decade to build trust within the ecosystem. Yeah, one of the thing, actually, two things. One is the self custody is shown. I know you're working on solving some of those problems, but yourself custody still such Such a hurdle for people to a degree even including me it's like if someone can kind of crack that code to help people understand it and the importance of it and make it kind of user-friendly. I think that would go a long way and I should have mentioned earlier to that you know emphasizing as a community emphasizing the social good that Bitcoin does I think would go a huge way toward insertion accepted because that's that's not like some sort of gloss that were applying to the space. That's absolutely real. Intangible and and I don't think a lot of people are fully aware that it still has, you know, gets this sort of in this used for money launderer and this is like such an old story. And, of course, it ignores the, the place that good old cash plays in that whole sort of underground economy, and and so Bitcoins, even better than cash, right? I mean, even did you see the interview with? I think was no seem to lab that CNBC had done recently. We're he acknowledges that as sort of disadvantage of Bitcoin that can be too easily audit. I'm like wait what? Like that's that speaks. Its favor. But nonetheless and mental pretzel that guy found himself in on that CNBC interview is just an it's amazing. Bitcoin exposed is basically everybody over me enough time. Right. Right. You mentioned auditing and we were talking before the the podcast about you know, the various pieces of Background or specifically like traumas that led you to realizing the Bitcoin had legs or had value. And one of the things for me and I share this with a number of of Bitcoin Riders was, I was, I went through an accounting program. I went through the same accounting program is pure Richard, which was really training people to become Auditors in Big Four firms and then, here you encounter this thing. Once you get onto the surface and you start learning about it, it It's itself every 10 minutes. That's that's an incredible dream for someone who's you know, had to appreciate the importance of the audit function in from an academic sensor, whatever. And and here it is, this this dream realized and that was one of the pieces for me of like, oh, this has value. And and David, I was curious to hear a little bit of if you care to share about. You know, the sequence of events that led you to realize, oh, Bitcoin has value. Yeah, well maybe it's best cast in the light of what I did wrong which is so after that series of Revelations around about the 2020 timeframe, I then became interested in defying again, I'll mention that Alex warned me against it but nonetheless, I couldn't help myself. And so I went down that rabbit hole found a very interesting and you know, do you as if I miss Bitcoin? Maybe I can take advantage of the you know this growing. Space called defy invest in a few firms, you know, sort of hedge funds in that space and thank God. Thank God, I came back from the 2022 Bitcoin conference in the scales fell from my proverbial eyes. And I realized that no no, no, no, it's all about big point. And so they asked our advisor to ditch all those Investments and get back to bitcoin, only just in the nick of time. So, Yeah, I mean I kind of now recognize what doesn't have value at least in my estimation and and what does and you know Bitcoin is we've discussed has value Beyond just sort of mere Financial measures and it's really exciting. The you know the vibe. And I've been told this by others, the vibe and a Bitcoin conference is very different than at these other defy conference because there's other conferences are devoted to making money and I've no problem making money or Gail. Like, I'm a free market here, and I think that does a lot of social good for the world. I mean, that's the beauty of capitalism is that the profit incentive leads to exciting products at cheap, prices for everybody. And makes poor people much richer than they would otherwise be. It benefits the poor more, so it does anyone else. And so that's so it's not that I'm casting aspersions on the on the profit motive, arm, free markets. It's really just that there are these collateral benefits that Accrue to bitcoin Investments. And, and you know, there again, it benefits the poor most. So, the vibe at a Bitcoin conference very different because I think a lot of us are there because it's like, you know, to become sort of a social Mission and and it's really exciting. It's a, it's I mean, I love those conferences. I'm sure you guys do too. Yeah. And on that point, just to really sort of draw the picture for anybody, maybe new to bitcoin and new this podcast, particularly we discussed it last week and Michael mentioned, you order of operations. And I'm a big believer that one of the first order of operations for Bitcoins, long-term success and realizing the benefits it has for society more broadly is the energy sector, really tying Bitcoin mining as a part of the stack for the Energy sector makes them more profitable makes them more efficient and really helps dry prices, lower in the energy sector so that's just one way we're talking about the monetization of Bitcoin. Yes. Early adopters will massively benefit from its monetization process but one thing we have to mention is the goal of Bitcoin is to create a sound monetary system in the digital age of end of everybody benefits from that. Even if you're the very last person to adopt Bitcoin that is what has Really corrupted the world right now is the ability to corrupt, the pricing mechanism of the global economy, which is effectively the dollar right now, and if you can manipulate interest rates and expand and contract, the monetary base on a whim that really doesn't allow the market to have an accurate pricing mechanism, which Bitcoin brings to the market. And when it does, the economy globally, will be able to be able to be facilitated much more efficiently, capital Ian again, will come with true opportunity costs which in the long run makes forces people to make better decisions economically that hopefully increase productivity drive down prices and allow people that operate throughout the economy. Using good information, which is the pricing mechanism and then beyond that, just the network. So that's the asset side of things and the energy side of things and the peer-to-peer Network really drives value for individuals, like David was mentioning People in Emerging Markets or who are living under despotic regimes, the fact that Bitcoin is a peer-to-peer Network on top of that. And then the network can't or not the network, the despotic dictator or a government who doesn't like what you say what you say about a particular subject, cannot prevent you from accessing the network. So you have the energy Story, the accurate pricing mechanism in the peer-to-peer Network which can't can't. Don't show prejudice against individuals. It's fascinating because which you just described eloquently is very simple, but the mental model like it's inherently a positive sum game and I think David is waiting to like all coin and crypto, is it is a zero sum game, it's similar Fiat, you know, there's just a world where you can create more of the unit and it centralizes and all the things we know that come along with it. But when we talk to institutions endowments individuals, It just it doesn't match to the way that they were born into the world and how they think about the unit. So to hear that there was a singular unit and everybody benefits from it and you from an order of operations on how capital is allocated opportunity costs it doesn't map. And so there's just this like again period were just trudging along and people waking up and it's little find that point whatever. The number is, where then it's like accepted. But until then if there's just this like mental Gap that exists and what Marty just said that. It makes so much sense, again being common sense but still does not map to Fiat crypto in like almost traditional Venture where it's like, something's bigger faster better. So I need to go that route versus like this is the thing that works now we can all just benefit from it. Yeah. When Marty was talking there that this probably happens for everyone but I'd say probably once a week I get hit with just, the Staggering significance of Bitcoin, you know? And that was happening for me. I was Marcus. In about, it's just remarkable that it's the Silver Bullet for, like, the two most important things that you could try to install in the world, which is, which is, you know, abundant energy to Advanced civilization, abundant energy and deflationary, currency currency that allows Savers to grow their purchasing power over time, just by Saving and and those two things are fused together in Bitcoin. And it becomes this the most important cause in the world today it is like being a part of, you know, the American Revolution, you know, in our modern era. It is a it is a Cosworth advancing worth devoting your time to because it, you know, this is Western Civilization ideals embodied in an asset and this is this is the dream. And it and that's after that's after years and years, full time digging into it, it only becomes more and more true. And so, you know, yet for anyone whose early in their Bitcoin Journey, as far as I can tell your eyes are not deceiving you, it really is. The most important thing happening on the planet today in terms of Human Rights and liberties And it's very darwinistic in a sense like if you don't adopt it, but are repercussions, it's part of, I don't know if this is the right time, we have on the list, the chat about City lagging inflation and what's happening with small businesses and I thought about this for years and I seen this in a while this in a small taco shop. I think I'm even tweeted about it, but it was like it was a like deli style or style like style where you go up and you see the price the market market for You know the tacos and like the inputs or there, but it was like two years ago they started having the the it was almost like electrical tape over it. So the black because it was just constantly changing and this was like in the middle of Texas and I had this realization because it was another one across the street. But this one had like constant, you know, they at least were ahead in understanding it because what happens is a lot of restaurants is they don't actually know the inputs and they don't keep track because they're performing what they want to do or they're good at. You know, cretan, hospitality and food. And so, This Heart of this restaurant, was actually at least ahead of it in the sense of like, okay. Well, I know my inputs from the grocer or from like, you know, trios or tomatoes or increasing. So, I have to change the price, I can stay in business. A lot of restaurants actually don't operate like that. It's crazy, but it's just the reality and realizing will. And I try to talk to Mel Bitcoin, it didn't work out. But the idea was like, well, this firm at the end of the day, once we know what, we know, and the price appreciates or the cost of all the It's whether it's the, you know, actual like capex, op X. That the only way they stay alive in the stay around overtime, is for them to hold, and start accepting Bitcoin. And I was like, about two years ago and then some of the stuff L at Marty's gonna like, jump into it. But just thinking through like, in this future state with what's happening in the market and inflation. And inputs and essentially recession. And there's less buyers for those goods unless you're holding a currency that appreciate some time. You're basically working against yourself to the point where you won't be able to operate, and It was just yesterday or two days ago. I saw like Bed Bath & Beyond got acquired the like IP and rights for 20 million dollars which is just shocking to me because like you just assume like Bed Bath and Beyond it took a subsidiary of Best Buy, I don't know, hundreds of millions of dollars. Maybe a multi-billion dollar Corporation at one time and it got bought for twenty point five million dollars from some other you know p4r. It is just I think that's the way most businesses will see unless they understand what Jesse Martin what we're discussing here and recognize it. And we'll just the next 10 years will just be a like basically proof of those and to add more color to this a newsletter about it on Monday, or Tuesday, I believe. But Michael was actually you, he sent me a picture over the weekend when you went to get a haircut and it was essentially a letter from the owners of the salon saying hey it was a long one page letter that said, hey, we're really feeling the pressures that mean Mission, they specifically reference the CPI print from last June and explained that their input cost on the product side heading. Crease by 26%, their labor craw costs, had increased by 22%, I believe, and do to those cost pressures. They are forced to raise their prices on July 1st, which really sent me down. Like a thought experiment is okay. Like they reference the 2022. The June 2020 to see Pi print, is something that they recognized then but they did not raise their prices until a year later, they are not raising their prices until a year later and so as Michael just mentioned there were some Savvy entrepreneurs who are adjusting prices on the go as their input costs were Rising, but there has to be this subset of the economy, whether it be a salon shipping business, a pesticide business that really tried to keep prices stable. Bowl so that business want to go to competition and I actually wrote that is letter, send it out and I got a few responses of people and business owners, who said, yes is exactly what's going on. We've had our labor costs, go up significantly and we've held prices stable so that our customers don't go to the competition. However, the pressure is getting so immense that we can't hold anymore. So that's the sort of lagging inflation effect. That I think could hit markets later this summer. Is this subset of entrepreneurs who have helped prices stable in the face of rapidly Rising input costs that simply cannot hold back the damn of these pressures anymore are going to be forced to raise prices. How large is that subset? I guess that's yet to be seen. But I do think there are at least anecdotal data points that prove that there are businesses operating this way we could see price inputs increases. Throughout the summer. Yeah, one thing to add to that Marty is a data point. Peter say Jones talked about it this week of from 2020 2021 manufacturers have their input costs at a certain price that they're either held on like it a like a today already had it held it and so the price change from that time to you know because of inflation. So let's say the input was nine dollars on their book and they had a job in a generally. Sold for 10 they were okay with selling it for 1112 and it hit the book says Like an increase in Revenue which is basically what United States this year is showed from like a GDP but the reality is like that cost is going to increase their underlying you know capex off X. And now they're upside down with you know just the numbers and how and then also just the amount of people that are available to buy it at that price increase and then I think a different parallel but it's the same concept is what we see with like credit card debt and just the different functions of debt from the household that has increased. Because reality is a state. They're trying to stay constant with either, what they're used to living by or they're using debt to keep that constant, but the same time, like I can only go so far before, either they default on it or a bunch of other things associated with not being able to afford the cost of living that they're used to all just trending to a certain direction that is not good for anybody. And by the way, I should mention like there's so many misunderstandings at least in my view when it comes to inflation. Like I would argue that what the three of you just mentioned is not as really going to drive inflation. It's a symptom of inflation which in turn is obviously a symptom of rampant money printing to fund. What are often sir, boondoggle expenditures. And but so, what will happen as a result of what you're describing is that it's it's not necessarily going to drive price increases its symptomatic of excess liquidity and inflation in the economy, what will happen and maybe this is just sort of an obvious truth. But I'll say it anyway, is that it's going to impinge Upon Our standard of living rather going to spend less or going to save less or we're going to give away less to worthy causes. And that's ultimately what's so crushing about inflation and among alone among the four of us on this call? I remember 70s inflation. And that's exactly what happened. There was some it was it was horrific and we're just repeating that Playbook and the seventies inflation resulted from the many of the same factors, it was the Vietnam War and it was about wildly increased government spending serve as a result of the so-called Great Society programs. And we just didn't have enough money to go around to pay for which, obviously led to the events of August. I think was Teen was 1971 and divorcing ourselves from the gold standard and you know, we've been sloshing around liquidity ever since. Yeah, we didn't have enough gold to go around and so we changed what money meant at that point in time in order to make it possible to pay all these things. And I think that's like it's such a fascinating part of, I don't know. I spent many years in school learning about business and finance and never really History of how we went off the gold standard. Why we went off the gold standard? It was the escalating cost of Vietnam that were causing us to clip, are pegged to gold which which precipitated the French sending an aircraft carrier to New York City demanding, their gold, which we were holding for them. And then West, Germany was threatening to do the same in 1971 and those combined factors led to all right, Right. Well, we're going to just, you know, break the convertibility of gold and closed the gold window and and then that allowed for us to inflate away our debts, which is what the 70s was and my favorite chart in the WTF happened, in 1970 one.com, fantastic, set of charts to scroll through the most compelling. One is how there's a up until 1971 productivity and worker compensation we're lockstep. And then at 1971 they worker compensation flatlines while productivity continues its up and to the right trajectory, which is to say that by switching to a Fiat money standard, it became possible to You do not keep up with wage increases and not pay your your workers more despite the fact that they are continuing to produce more and that is kind of the point in time where the middle class starts to road. If you think of what has happened over the last 50 years, it's been a strong middle class. As you know, in the several decades built in the several, several decades following World War Two being eroded. Into into Despair and diseases of Despair. And the hillbilly elegy sort of world that that we now find ourselves in where we're more radical or populist politicians, have a greater reception in a more welcoming base because there's so much pain and suffering in the in the middle class, what used to be a proud middle class and it all comes back to that. Only one moment where? Because we start to change what a dollar means the measuring stick started to shift, faster than workers were able to demand that. They be paid more. And of course, there's there's globalization factors and offshoring that are also a part of the story and, and Technology technological deflation playing in as well. But you know, to me when I went, you know, having gone down this history, Recent history of money Rabbit Hole it all, feels like that was the point in time where the American way of life reached its Zenith and we have been eroding quality of the standard of living for for, you know, your median American ever since and it all comes back to the money, which is this surprising thing. It's not about politics really. You know, that's the thing that we fight about. The real driver under all of it is that your money buys you less every year and your wages are not keeping up with that. And then here's the solution, this Sly roundabout way of taking back that those rights of having a monetary unit, where your money buys, you more every year. And that's that changes. The world and it restores the American Values, that that got us to that place of preeminence and in the 50s 60s 70s. Jesse has floated, right? I mean it's I think you did write him. It's, you know, it has manifestations that one wouldn't expect to see whether it's the it maybe it was you Morty, I forgotten, but it's a quality of the architecture, its its ears example. I used to tell a buddy of mine when we see sir rampant over development in the Philadelphia area and Marty perhaps you're familiar with this here, are these beautiful Beautiful horse country, that's been overrun with these subdivisions. And I used to say to a friend, you know, thanks Central Banking and he thought it was nuts, but actually think there's some truth to that. So in addition to what you said, Jesse you also witness what austrians would call malinvestment. So you're seeing investment. And in assets that really do us. No good. Meanwhile, starving other sectors of the economy of investment that would do us. Look good. So, you have to ask the question. So few, do why did cars, why didn't buildings? Why did everything seemed to go? Downhill around about the culture, art it, go on and, on around about that time and one could argue it really does kind of boil down to the money. Yeah, to that point and something we're touching on earlier, is how do we really Drive Bitcoin? As this force of optimism in the world and and it's noon here and see how That's the the challenges of summertime outdoor, according, huh? Yes, yes, what has to be to be worried about that, going forward after recording, right? This time. But that point, Like, Jesse you mentioned, people are really focused on politics and they think Red vs. Blue, the other side driving the problems and is really created this framework of argumentation. That people have been stuck in for decades and no matter who's in charge, whether it's red team or blue team. We keep going into More debt, we keep misallocating money and I think that's something that we've all tried to do and probably do a better job of, but it's really moving the frame, moving the over to Windows like stop fighting Red Team Versus Blue Team. The money is the core of the problem. Like the polarity that we see in red versus blue is really being driven by the money Printing and the degradation in quality of life which is forcing people to go out and ask questions. Why is my life getting worse? Why am I not able to buy as much wine? And I be able to pull myself up for my bootstraps, when somebody pre 1971 was able to do so in a seemingly easy fashion, if they were motivated and productive and again the red team wants to bring the blue team, the Blue Team wants to blame the red team and we really need to figure out a way to move the framework of argumentation to. It's not red team versus blue team. You guys are driven to polar opposite sides of the spectrum because there is bad things going on in your life. Life. But your misdiagnosing, the problem and instead of attacking the quote unquote, other you should be attacking this thing that you're not even pay attention to, which is how money is created and distributed throughout the economy. Yeah. I think what's been interesting is if you think a lot of these discussions for years have been for the middle class, the lower class that need to preserve wealth and that others were like oh I'm fine, you know High net worth individual. We talked about Little bit David last pod, but that is starting to see more and more. Now with individuals that are already retired and how they plan their life, and the next 20 or 30 years and see that slowly being eroded. Because they had this thought that they save x amount and they're they're perfect. And then as you start to look at the inputs and the costs of you know, whether it's the vacation things, it starts to change that Dynamic and that goes up the stack and whatever's cost, whether it's the building the Investments or the deflationary things that we're seeing in like basically restructuring of debt. And that ten million dollars an hour not it doesn't exist anymore, he's part of your portfolio. So I think it's just it's just a function of like the times or Marty's point of seen both sides like has nothing to do with the politics has to do with much deeper rooted problem and everybody starting to recognize it because everybody balance sheet is starting to be hit year-over-year where their purchasing power decreasing Which ties it at engines and endowment conversation, right? It's like everybody's starting to become upside down. It's like how do they fix that hole? Plug it? Yeah, I've called all in skirt. Just the, the scenario here that I think a lot of retirees are probably in right now. Let's say you did really well as a baby boomer you, you've got a nest egg of five million dollars right now, fantastic. You did a great job and you know, that your bonds, you've you're shifting to 80% Bond portfolio. You want to play it conservative. You know your bonds are getting four percent right now. Fantastic, you're making two hundred thousand dollars a year and you're thinking. Okay, great. I'm making two hundred thousand dollars a year and when I've started out a house cost 50,000 dollars, I'm doing great. You know I'm crushing it. I can live off a two hundred thousand dollars a year and and live. Well for the next Next 20, 30 years, whatever it is. But the sneaky part is that inflation, the money printing that has to happen over the coming decades because of the amount of national debt. We've accrued 32 trillion at this point, the fact that we're already running two trillion dollars a year and in fiscal deficits and now we're adding interest expense on the national debt whereas before we had 0% interest rates for the last 10 years now it's suddenly 5%. We're looking at adding 1.5 trillion on top. Of our annual deficits that we've normalized over the last 20 years, because we haven't balanced a budget since Clinton and that four percent return that people are going to be making, that are making right now. That's not going to cover the real cost of inflation every year. So every year, you're actually going to be losing wealth just by sitting in bonds. And that's this scary burning platform that I don't think retirees realizes there right now and that necessitates It's looking at what are the Assets in my portfolio that can actually generate reliable yield? And the weird thing about it is that the bonds the thing that you have been able to rely on and trust for you know since World War Two. Those are going to be the losing bet and the scary new internet asset, might be the thing that replaces the function of bonds of what that delivers to a portfolio. And so David, really excited to hear your Her thoughts on how pensions are navigating this. And if that scenario that I just laid out Rings Trove for, you know, the folks that you deal with Well, I think to your point and, you know, partly this is observation partly direct experience over the years. But is that because a lot of folks to my surprise still haven't asked the fundamental question as to what is money that they're not yet fully realizing the pickle, they may find themselves in and secondly, I've found that actually to the point where just making that it takes a while for people's perspective to shift, so, And dollars may seem like a lot of money to a baby boomer, but, but that was that was when they were younger that was a fortune and, and now it's it's more commonplace to kind of make that kind of money and then it was, you know, 50 years ago obviously. And so so I think that shift in perspective is changing. But one thing I will say when it comes to institutional investors is that you know, and I think Michael you'd mentioned this earlier that sometimes I have a hard time Finding which bucket is the appropriate? One into which to place a new investment and it did witness that first and and in our own sort of hedge fund life but I think absolutely Bitcoins that way. And that's why shorthand monikers like digital gold can really help get us. I think over that hump. It doesn't really tell the whole story I know we're ultimately seeking kind of means of exchange. But for now you know, Digital gold is an okay way of looking at it. I know that I think was Parker Lewis who recently mentioned that you know, it's okay. You know it's like it's okay to be a store of value. It can also still function as a means of exchange. But be that as it may I think just think of it as a store value is enough and it'll be you know very soon that these institutional investors are going to see their portfolio returns begin to decline because of the devaluing dollar and they're going to be few places to hide and Marty had mentioned earlier. I wanted to bookmark this as well just in terms of telling the story for institutional investors. In addition to what I just mentioned you know, the energy rap is a bad one. I think we all know that, and it's going to be hard to kind of get people over that hump. But one thing that should help them is that is the least two of the things that. Again, I think we know, but but we'll have to do a better job of conveying to the institutional space which is that when it comes to energy usage we're doing a lot of good when it comes to you know, load Lansing and securing the grid and and flaring gas. That would otherwise go to waste and be burned up into the atmosphere. So and then co-locating energy sources. I think Jeff Booth is talked about this in ways that in areas of the world including places like Africa, that previously couldn't take advantage of this energy now, can it's really exciting and Bitcoins making that app? And so, I think it's not just about the financial use cases. We've talked about it but it's the social use cases. Well, I think going to help us tell a story. Yeah. David on that note one thought we had a discussion this week Jesse and I and the team at on-ramp were talking with advisor group that oversees our helped, you know institutions to the tune. I think close to 30 billion dollars, understand various assets and one of them is they set up the blockchain, you know, task force or Consulting Group and you know, internally there's an Individual that, you know understands the signal or has a thesis around the signal Bitcoin versus you know blockchain and wants us to speak to it and part of the discussion on just in my side or the team side is like what does it look like to tell that story and historically with individuals we've gone through and previous lives with Parker and others. It's like you tell the story of, you know, whether it's the fed and inflation or the history of money and what constitutes a good money and I don't think there's a right or wrong but one of the thoughts we had in it kind of touched on what you just described is what What do they look at it? Like, what are their buckets? And so there's like this alternative asset class bucket. And there's this just trend from 2010 to 2020. This is directionally like 10 trillion that is allocated. All turn to holds now. It's like will double that. And so there's this growing Trend in, you're looking for, you know, yield and to go into different alternative Investments and going to, okay? We'll term investments income. You know, one of the things are gold and Bitcoin is a better form of gold and let's talk about the principles of scarcity and starting off a base that can just meet them. Them where they're at and we all know that there's much more happening there, but I think it's, at least something we're going to test versus going to. Let's talk about money because once you start getting the money, and then you're basically telling them that we're on a different planet effectively because they're used to being a being on one planet. And if everything they know, now, we're saying, well, actually, you're not even on the right Planet, it just, it either turns them down the wrong direction, or it just gets a longer cycle of them understanding because they're coming at it from a different angle. And then one other note on that is the counterparty risk. I think we talked about this. You Mortals are goes for years about like what would you rather have it is an individual like 250k and BTC in cold storage or million dollars at a bank and you saw that kind of play out and I think most people would recognize that there's there's a discount on the money that you don't holders to the money, you do hold and I think that's going to overtime, start to become more, evident with institutions endowments and the like that as you start Art, you know, not only looking to have the annuities in the payments for your constituents, but then also, you can have the restructuring, the default. These, you know, there's so much billions of dollars allocated that we're going. There's no way that it can all just kind of stay, you know, solvent. There will be things that go to 0, but the, this it being scary that you may not be able to own that or like, basically thinking of the Wily coyote and underneath is are it's like, we know stocks and equities, you know, equities are inflated, we know bonds, you know, kind of Of hot potato, it can fall out any point. It's like what is that value premium of knowing that the PTC sits there similar to Gold, you can take possession and I think that we're still so far from that on the institutional side. But I do think if that Trend grows and what we thought of them, but individual side will continue to grow to the institution down because it's just game theoretical at that point, right? So you want to know you own the money to pay for the liabilities that you have and there's a world where you wake up and you don't own the money. And I don't think we're that far from that. Well, every year that Bitcoin exist makes the story a little bit easier to tell because the Bitcoin goes to zero, scenario becomes, you know, sort of recedes Beyond The Event Horizon and so and thereto. I think that the real concern that people have had over the years, certainly in these social spaces, will it be outlawed? And I think we're seeing that receipt as well and rightly so, but, you know, to your point Michael another easily digestible way. A to put it when speaking with institutional investors is, you know, Commodities have cycles and we're seeing already as Larry will. Pardon others will be sure to mention is that gold and silver to arguably are about to enter into a new commodity cycle. I would argue it's completely predictable because of, you know, again, the money printing in the last couple years, but even if it's just a cycle, I think he could talk to an Institutional Investor and say. Yeah, you know, this is very much like gold but as you said Michael to even better for the Following reason so you don't have to go into the, what is money? Are you on a different planet? Kind of, you know, rabbit hole because that's, that's a harder sell it. We can say that for the, like In-laws in the family members. So, you know, one of my favorite stories are Marty's Uncle hidden talent. I guess he he he probably told you can definitely better than I can. Plus you'll be I was a very it was a very adamant Schiller back in the 2013, 2014 error. And before the price run up your during the beginning of the price, run up during that cycle, essentially sent me email to a couple of my uncle's who are well off. Like, you guys should be looking into this, like, we've completely messed up the money. Here's the coin, here's how it works. And one of my emails off of my mother, her emailed, my mother and told her that I should not be giving crackpot, that's good advice successful. People like I should never reach out to pick people that she'll Bitcoin in that passion for the evening is I think you're crazy anyway then you can get away with saying things like that. Yes, it's funny too because it sounds in the 2017 bull market was Schilling, the Ripple so it all comes back full circle. So wait, what's so what do your uncle and your mother say now? now, I mean now that with the benefit of hindsight, I think for my uncle me being on Tucker, Carlson was a big, was a big Tipping Point for him? Where's they got Tucker gets it and you're talking about Bitcoin on Tucker, Must Be a thing but I think they get it was very early on. I was young I was like 22 as well, not as articulate and put together as I am, as I like to think of myself now. I think I've definitely gotten better at approaching it. And that's one thing everywhere I was talking about this, This. If we yesterday or the day before, yeah, it was. So I record a podcast with Sam wouters from River. We were talking about his most recent research report that he put out for them on Global Payments, remittances and Bitcoins Bitcoins position in that world. And he's done a lot of Education over the years and really the best way to approach Bitcoin education. We both agreed honest. Ask questions don't sort of give a full-frontal like here's we messed up the money. People don't know what money is. It's like, Michael was just saying you people, where they are the best way to do that is to ask questions. Like what do you understand about Bitcoin? How are you thinking about it? It's probably what I should have done in 2014, but I was a Brash young, man. You're, you're a nightmare for Thanksgiving dinner because most people have that, that Uncle who likes Target Tucker Carlson. And it will bring that into the conversation and create a rift. A few people have the the guy at the table who was on Tucker Carlson. It can speak with additional Authority about you know actually I know what I'm talking about here. Yeah staring it's still a no-go discussion for be at Thanksgiving. It's not worth it it's again let people come to you and then ask them questions. That's my approach to pick one education uh and it's in the green and Thanksgiving generally the Schiller and Thanksgiving gets it short-lived and the next Thanksgiving is Just like what did you tell me to do? Yeah. What else is new? I guess one thing Marty said about meeting people. I think like there's a great asymmetry and meeting people where they are. We're talking about David's background and the institutional space and knowledge. But also understanding back when understanding money and thinking about these things from first principles, its part about this part of the podcast, part of all the stuff we're building with on ramp, but just thinking about this pot as well, that like, very often the fund. And we think about the trust's like, well, Why hasn't it been done that? Where you can take deliver and click rule. There's there's reasons behind it and it has to do with the traditional person coming into Bitcoin was from Wall Street. They're probably never send a transaction, they may never want to, they're worried, there's Logistics that go into place and then on the other side of it, the individual that is concerned about custody and, you know, is fine with saying, you know, the mechanics of sending transaction wants nothing to do with anything structured around a way to bring in and meet people where there are and that's okay, and it's perfectly fine. Everything's cold lives in both of those worlds and it's what makes us such a great opportunity. Usually, you can play and have your feet in both and in that is where all the, you, I think next 10 years of whether it's, you know, wealth will be generated but also relationships and network will continue to grow because you can kind of see, like, okay, I understand there's principles the Bitcoin to make it different than everything else. But I also understand there's a reason why the traditional World kind of structured around that. And how do you form fit? It around Bitcoins properties. So it has longevity. Eva tea while also still median individuals that hold the Capital because the reality is, it's 99.9% of the capital still sitting with individuals and all these other assets and needs to come into Bitcoin. And you have to be able to provide people people with the right products services and also to articulate in a way that meets them, you know, where they're at, so that you can make that on board and a seamless as possible. Yeah. I keep thinking about sort of combination of what what Michael and David were saying that, you know, in some ways we over complicated because for for institutional allocators, the story is still or should be. This is digital gold and this has a role as just that mean that the two word thought can really get the message across in terms of what this acid can do as a starting point. And that's the thing that you, you know, They aren't aware of it is digital gold as the minimum of what Bitcoin is. But you know, I love the story of the Winklevoss twins because that's their thesis. That's, that's how they got into Bitcoin in 2011, think they bought Bitcoin when it was $11, you know, they were fresh off of their Court winnings vs. Duck. I forget how much they they got from that. I think it was like, 60 Million. And I think they plunked like 10 million, but into Bitcoin, because they heard about it at a party in Ibiza beach, party in a Visa, and they looked into it. And I did the research and, and the thesis became for them, that this is digital gold, and it will match Gold over time. And that's, that's all. They thought it was. I think that's all. They still think it is. And obviously, they've because they don't fully understand Bitcoin. They've gotten, To altcoins and taking on some some, you know, gotten into a little bit of trouble with some yield products. So they don't fully understand Bitcoin. But they understood it enough and they still understand it. Enough to have a position and hold on to that position and that has turned them into billionaires and you know that we're still so far from that gold valuation that gold parody. That's I forget, that's something like four hundred thousand five hundred thousand dollars per Bitcoin. To match Gold in terms of the total valuation of that asset. And that's enough, you know that's a 20 x from here and if we can make that case to institutional allocators they can see that this is a has an asymmetric upside and is something that is currently missing from their portfolios on Jesse to it occurs to me that you know, We spend a lot of with this conversation talking about, how do you sell institutional allocators on bitcoin, But ultimately, I think the sales pitch is and it's self-evident to us. But potentially not to institutional investors that this will this is ultimately to the benefit of your underlying constituents, whether it's a pension holder, or what have you and, and we shouldn't lose sight of that, perhaps obvious point because this isn't about like, As something as crass is, just, you're maximizing returns months, as we want to do that on a risk-adjusted basis. It's really about making sure that we can meet the liabilities that in the case of a pension that they've accrued over time and the obligations, they owe their underlying pension holders. And so there is a noble purpose here beyond what we believe to be the noble purpose of Bitcoin. But strictly speaking within the institutional space it's about you know, No, expanding the footprint of an art museum, or yeah, meeting the obligations. You may have to a pension holder and many of whom are blue collar and you know, the First Responders and so forth. I mean, it's um it's I think that's something that ought to be explicitly conveyed. When we are talking to folks in the social space because it Bears mentioning now that is a really great point because it's something that I Thought through and as I've talked to the team, you think about going outbound and you go reach out. The reality is, we talk about it returns and numbers, but at the end of the day, it's all about people individuals and how they're basically livelihood is impacted vile the stand. So this we talked about being a positive sum game that you like, imagine what better world can you be that you can actually make, you can still be capitalistic, you can still generate and build a business. But at the same time, impact individuals, from what helped to save them, but help them benefit from where Are we all know this is heading, right? Because there's going to be winners are going to be losers. And so yeah, it's a great point. To really like, get back to the first principles of that, there's individuals that have liabilities over them. There's also individuals that are thinking about this and they're worried about their own, you know, situation as far as their balance sheet and meeting them and helping them. Understand it goes so much further from like an empathetic standpoint that I think will resonate. I think I can go across from anybody that's trying to get people involved or at least just paying attention to what's Happening Here. Can I go back to the point of risk-adjusted returns with Bitcoin? Specifically? I that's always one of the things that has perplexed me from the institutional class is because I used to work in a managed Futures fund. And so, we would index commodity trading advisors, we would fight for five percent portfolio, allocation in broader, and bigger portfolios of hedge funds and stuff like that. And it was the pitch was simply like, hey, obviously manage features aren't sexy but when things go to shit like they will be there to protect the the value of our overall portfolio with an uncorrelated return and when it comes to bitcoin and I think that's very obvious and putting that managed Futures hat on and it should be low lift where people are going institutions like, Hey we're not asking you to a pin, put fifty percent of your assets into Bitcoin. Yeah. We may believe that would be a smart move. Sure. Sure there's a lot of career risk with that but at the very least you should be looking at a small one to five percent allocation in case the rest of your portfolio blows up and Bitcoin does succeed. Can at the very least create stable value for your portfolio or in a optimistic scenario, increase the value of your portfolio and allow you to pay back those liabilities. They have Yeah, there's an irony here that we've reached a point in Bitcoin. Adoption has reached a point where it is much riskier to have a zero percent allocation to bitcoin. Then it is to have a one percent allocation to bitcoin. And most people haven't made that cognitive leap yet. So there's a lot of people taking on risk that there are not aware of because they continue to bucket Bitcoin as Internet Monopoly money. Now that's exactly right. And I'm certain, I'll No, I have them run the calculation but there must be those who have, but if you were to run the risk Frontier calculation, if Bitcoin is in your portfolio, I'm sure that you're getting a better optimized risk-adjusted return than if it were not there to your point Jesse. And I'm not sure what the optimal percentage allocation would be. But what I tell, I'm not sure what you guys do. But what I tell friends and family is just what's the harm in a one percent? Allocation, I don't think is going to 0. But what if it does, you know, you're still left with 99% her portfolio intact. So, so I think one percents the floor. And somewhat shift course here because I do think there is one Topic in the news that we should talk about in really touches on something that institutions have on their mind, which is custody and the counterparty risk that can exist in this space. If you don't choose the right counter party this week, we had prime trust, I guess the receivership. The files got got released to the market, and it became apparent that they really, did not know how to custody Bitcoin appropriately. So, little back story Prime, trust started doing their own custody, and transition to fire blocks, which does a lot of the, the custody for many brokers in the space, on the back end, they made that transition in 2021 from their legacy address custody as they were doing and then at some point In 2021. They what the story that's being told is that they thought that they were pulling addresses from fire blocks, but they were actually pulling address from their, their, their mothballed legacy address structure which they had lost access to the private keys to. And so people were sending Bitcoin to wallets that Prime trust actually didn't have access to which highlights again, if you don't pick the correct. Custodian. Somebody who Stan's Bitcoin security and how to do it. The correct way. You could end up leveraging a third party that doesn't actually get Bitcoin or access to bitcoin. And so obviously this is a bit of a black guy on the space. You had prime trust which up until recently was one of the most trusted third parties in the space. And it has become abundantly clear that they actually didn't know how to do Bitcoin security, the correct way and so We do you not want me to him already? I think we go. There we go. So I can beg a big point of focus moving forward is all right. How do we ensure that institutions custom Bitcoin or doing it the correct way? So that you don't have this operational, risk effect institutions endowments, pensions whatever, baby, obviously. That's a big core of what on-ramp is trying to solve with multi-institution multisig. Yeah, I think 01 part independent of on-ramp. We can talk about a chill at. There's a website. I think. The thing that we talked about like this stuff in alien technology is that it's still not recognized at, this is the first asset that it can spread the, the security and risk around the multiple parties or multiple keys to sign, more multiple authentication methods. And I would go as far as to say whether it's an individual holding their own keys. Or an institution, you should look at it specifically where you have the majority of your wealth, you know, stored. So let's just say you have X percentage in Bitcoins money, maybe it's 80, 90 percent, whatever it is long-term savings. You don't want a single point of failure, it's in it just, it's again, going back to we're on a different planet. Now we're talking about Bitcoin, but the realities are in the history that we lived in is, you can call a bank. There's bailouts, you print more money, you get your socks back from Robin Hood. Different Mach that happens. You just get made whole because, and also in the United States that were used to it, but in Bitcoin that doesn't happen. And so we've just seen the past 12 years of this ties into the truck, the prime trust situation. So, interesting is because people will go out and pontificate are explained that because it's a qualified custodian and Trust in Nevada, state Charter, and as always like legal structure around it, but at the end of the day, if you lose the Bitcoin, the Bitcoins gone, and good luck trying to get back the dollars or the BTC equivalent, there's ten years of History. Between Mount Cox and now of all the way up to the past year, with FTX of individuals hoping or block by hoping to get, you know, some pennies on their dollar. And so I think that's just more of a core like understanding. This is the first time in humanity that you have this after that can be held geographically in different places, or with different parties within a family structure. And then that goes from an institution, all the way down to an individual and an individual. I think of this is all this starts from individuals, whether you're explaining. Coin there, the CIO there, the president there, whatever of an organization. So generally you're going to get an individual that understands this, and then they're going to look to either buy or look for a custody solution like an on ramp or others like it and it ties into a conversation. I had with somebody and I think 2020 or 2021 that the common parlance is you know sell custody is the gold standard and you know single Sig or not your keys, not your coin and this guy thought the same thing. His 10 years got in like 2012. In 2013, he was in the UK, and he was a kind of person was probably a lot that was in the show and that our friends, I would say I would never work with anybody. I like non kyc, nobody knows I have the coin, don't deal with it. And then his brother passed away and mortality became real. And he had put all of this energy and his life and learning this stuff. Storing it all the capital, he had accumulated over the course of his life and then mortality became real. And he realized that his wife may get none of He gets hit by a bus. And so now he has to think about how do you protect that and think about the structure, we talked about multisig and different ways to plan for inheritance. But you can't naturally do with a single, you know, point of failure. So I think it's just more of an overarching, they want to share. It's like how you think about this asset is fundamentally different, whether it's an individual small business, or a pension. And that's what we talked about last week. It's like black rock is fundamentally, not understand. You're looking at this with at the right, the right lens because you can't put the old Playbook. Up to it. Because at a certain point over the course of that accumulation period, that basically, the denominator switches where the Enterprise Value goes up side down and the, you know, assets being held or larger than the liability. And now, everybody's worried, he's like, what happens if you lose it? And I think that by definition is what's gonna happen there, or should be in the minds of everybody because you're allocating to it to, you're expecting it to go 10x 100x and so, that should be the frame of mine, but it'll be the course. The next, you know, five to ten years, I don't think it's gonna be a slow burn in that being recognized and that's part of the Pod on-ramp is to like, help educate delhi's. Understand how to think about this and then everybody will make the decision that's best for them. But we've seen in the past few years and of again being very darwinistic. The game theory is not in your favor. If you can take the wrong steps with how you approach custody or counterparties? Exactly, just being personally, I've kind of spread the wealth around. I mean, it's hard to know when the space is still. So relatively young, you know, where best to and how best to store your Bitcoin. And and you guys are aware that I've invested in some Bitcoin adjacent funds as well. And and so, you know, when it comes to custody, I think, you know, age counts for a lot. And so being why melons been around since forever and I fed all these Around for a long time and it's, they have the advantage of, you know, the Legacy brand equity. And you guys at on-ramp will eventually acquire that as well, but connecting that to the institutional space, I think the release to get Bitcoin adoption underway, ever more, so than it already has taken place. You know, we may look to these Legacy institutions to help bring along. And then, you know, you touched on the ETF, I think you talked about this in your last pot, but you know, my hope is that if netf comes online, even if it's imperfect that it will lead people to say, okay, well, this is the easy way to get access within my IRA or my Donor, advised fund, or whatever might happen to be. But to you is let me. Look into this Bitcoin further, we're going to peel away some people who are going to say, okay let me look at this more carefully and maybe I can at least allocation allocate a portion of my Bitcoin to a more intelligent. Solution. So we may get some adopters. I think we will perhaps more so than we otherwise would have absent mainstream adoption by way of an ETF. But I know it's, you know, mildly controversial within the Bitcoin pure space. So, I'm not sure if there will be full agreement on that, but that's my personal View. Yeah I think that's something. Go ahead Martin I was just gonna say I think that's something we all agree. Like Black Rock will act as a massive top of funnel and overtime. Small percentages of people who get first access via that ETF will begin to go further down the rabbit hole. He's better security practices. And another thing to note, like, yes, I may not agree with BlackRock and they're pushing of ESG, but that's the other beauty of Bitcoin. Again, going back to the peer-to-peer Network. Anybody can access Is it whether you're a black rock or a refugee in some Emerging Market that's looking to escape the country with your wealth? There's nothing we can do about it. That's again, beauty of Bitcoin. The only thing we can do about it is try to build better more appealing products and compete on the market, which is a beautiful thing. Hopefully, Black Rock coming in. Just simply forces everybody to be sharper and build better products, which should be a massive benefit overall for the entire Bitcoin Network. Yeah, that's the one thing I will add here is that Bitcoin humbles everyone and it will humble Wall Street to some firms on Wall Street will get burned on by putting their hand on the stove and and that's because Bitcoin has its own way of doing things in this case. Custody of assets is different in Bitcoin than it has ever been. For the traditional world and Bitcoin is uncompromising in how it does things. It is what it is and you have to get on board with that you have to adapt to bitcoin. You cannot make Bitcoin adapt to you. That's just that's part of the game here. That's part of why Bitcoin has been successful. There is no compromise. And those factors mean that everyone gets humbled by Bitcoin in some way. You all everyone makes a mistake whether that's through trading or through trying to get a little juice or some yield product, en Bloc Phi and then poof, your money's gone. You burn, you burn your hand on the stove and then you learn to do things Bitcoins way and I think that we are now beginning a new chapter order of of hard learning, the Wall Street addition. And that's not to say that everybody will get burned on Wall Street, buy Bitcoin, but some will, and I think that's going to be. It's a really difficult thing to have to face that, you know, there's this incredible asset that has these remarkable properties and If you don't fully accommodate how it wants to be, you expose yourself to risk that you're not aware of and and it could burn you because of that. And then you'll learn the hard way and then you'll come to the corn on its terms and seems that sir that's just not how we as humans think because we try to bring our expertise and Wall Street, has so much expertise about how to deal with traditional assets and those two factors are going to run against each other. At some point in the next few years. Yeah, that's one of the biggest Curiosities over the next 10 years who still is around, who hasn't? Because I know it sounds very crazy, maybe not to this group but it's icy like the Netflix and Blockbuster you have this thing that just intermediates the physical world and one you know, it completely took them out and to see what financial service companies adopted, I think a shops a good example, but not at the highest tier of, you know, you know, Capital allocation but they were traditional, you know, Payment Processing Company. That is now fully We're what it looks like Embrace Bitcoin time to David on your side's. If that you're willing to share some of the learnings you've seen on your investing in Bitcoin infrastructure. How have you just approach it or thought through the dynamic in the traditional world that you've seen? And also the new world of being Bitcoin native and intersecting or like just a philosophy at all, would love to hear. Kind of English are there. Yeah, well, I'm not sure that's quite answer the question but but, you know, I guess when investing in the space, I kind of Applied the the lens that I had developed over time, both as an individual investor. But then also what I've witnessed in the space and as I mentioned earlier I think it's it's important When approaching the space whether individual or institutional to look at it and serve um, With risk in mind. And and that's why I kind of cast my bread upon the waters and and the investment of few different funds because it's hard to know, like, especially absent track record exactly how it's going to kind of pan out because everybody's basically new to the space. And but, you know, I think a lot of us in the space and other four of us are sort of active followers of folks who are intelligent commentators and and of course, a bunch of them have gotten involved. And I know Dylan's involved with on-ramp and he's great. I follow his stuff and met him a couple times and and so to the extent that they're involved in these projects, I think that provides a measure of comfort and then when they're also aligned with somebody who or team of people who also know bit about investing, no matter what the asset class that's also helpful. And then furthermore it's helpful to have somebody on the team is actually run the business of a A hedge fund or just to fund and and that's by the way, what I used to do. So, you know, it's kind of operations its Financial Acumen and then it's also Bitcoin knowledge. And you get kind of those combined together and frankly, you know, with the marketing team to boot, then I think you have a pretty special operation and thankfully there are several out there right now. I've Full Faith and confidence that there are 45. They're really going to succeed and and In general, I think their goal is to do, even better than Bitcoin would. We'll see if that's going to actually come to pass. I think there's an open question, by the way, as to whether or not, there's money to be made, because so many of the economic rents, kind of accrue to the holders of Bitcoin in the space as opposed to some other asset classes with the, where the money managers are the ones making the money as opposed to the underlying investors. But in this space, you know, it's a little bit Harder. I think, although again, it's early for the bitch, Bitcoin and Jason companies to make money that is perhaps in some other asset classes. But I think there's money to be made, and I think these funds will do well. And then to have also some Bitcoin invested on various different platforms. Is also really also. And then even give me the age of the space relatively young age, that's been my Approach. And I think, I don't know. I mean, early indications are positive and I think we're on the cusp here, obviously, of An uptick given prior Cycles. So the next few years will kind of tell the tale, but it's exciting time to be to be here obviously. Yep. Yeah, not at 10:31. We completely agree and recognize that it's in a Bitcoin World. Especially in Venture, you have to be allocating the companies. They're actually profitable and doing things the right way, will will reuse from fold actually had a great tweet. They got resurfaced yesterday that he sent out last year and basically highlighted that running a successful Bitcoin company particularly through multiple Cycles, really hardens. You You for multiple reasons that you're forced to run as lean as possible because of the volatility of the cycles that exist in Bitcoin. And then on top of that, you have a customer base, particularly in early Bitcoin adopters who are hyper focused on ux and security. So it forces you to really lean into your product, make sure the providing the most hardened bitcoiners, the best product possible and added value to their life, which should drive underlying value to your company as well. That's it's not a direct analog to traditional VC, particularly over the last 20 years where it's pray. Pray, hope you get a unicorn like uber that gets a lot of market cap. It doesn't really provide profits. It's really reorienting to basically the assumption that we're going to operate under a Bitcoin standard at some point in the future with that, Assumption of mind, like what are the successful business is going to be the ones that are actually providing utility and then getting profit. From that utility that they're providing their users in the market overall and Marty I know that you must obviously evaluate both, but if you were to evaluate, you know, the people on the team versus the the idea itself, what do you find most compelling when you're looking at new projects? I think we over-index towards the people on the team people that can actually because we re architecting a new monetary system and financial layers on top of that. And I think it's pretty easy to see if you get Bitcoin and you believe it's going to be successful and you see the future, you see everything that exists in the incumbent world and you reimagine that's going to be built on top of Bitcoin. I think that's lower hanging fruits. Really understanding rock and Sort of easy to see that these types of products are going to be built, but then it's who could actually build them, who understands Bitcoin, who understands how to create a company and a security architecture. Most importantly around custody the right way, and understands the nuances and how the protocol is changed over time, how it may change in the future and thinking, smartly about how you build your product with those things in mind. I think one of the interesting parts of that like Venture investment side as you referenced David like on the generating profits and it's very hard in the Bitcoin only space to generate profits because there's a lot, there's a lot of values be provided. You have to part with an asset, especially at a price of 20 or 30 K of do you hold it, you transacted, where's the value? But if it would have seen, it's kind of interesting recently, we saw Valor come in and Lead unchanged around. They have Investments, probably. I would say close to five. Maybe seven now. Ecosystem with lightning Labs back going some others but then Franklin Templeton and there's other firms. And it's almost like we chatted about will hold it on your balance sheet personal pension, you know, you're increasing your return, you know, during wealth, but where are the entrepreneurs and the companies that actually start, you know, holding Bitcoin or accepting it for goods and services and what happened does that change the investment profile as big as all these things propagate their kind of common knowledge of preserving wealth Giving a symmetric Edge in competition in the marketplace. What is it look like and who will be the general traditional DC's that start to recognize that? Because I think that is a an interesting landscape. They went into the crypto stuff and I think they got burned and they had her go back to her. Hopefully went back to First principles of like, what are we doing here? And some of these things are securities and all the stuff that happened the past 12 months. But I think there's something there and seeing you know, traditional private PE firms and just others allocate to standard businesses that generate High returns and high profitable High Revenue. But then that lookin for whatever reason, whether it's a founder or something. Catches their bargain says, hey, we're actually starting to accumulate and store PTC and then we also just going to start recognizing that we'd like to accumulate in the best way to accumulate is via, you know, Revenue flows from our goods and services. That seems very interesting because it gives an asymmetric Edge in a world where the cost of goods continue to go up with against the dollar companies that are already within the marketplace and know. On for just traditional goods and service products, storing it in a form of currency that, you know, basically increases the the, that increases the burn rate. So basically they went from 5 years to 10 years over, you know, the courts or whatever the time is as they're holding a currency that is increasing with other against all their goods and service cost. Yoga. Yeah, we took it took a lot about SATs Flows at 10:31 and really trying to hone it on the businesses that are baking. It a point to accumulate as much Bitcoin as possible on their balance sheet and I think leaning into like the people over the idea and we see that a lot in the mining space particularly here in the United States right now is bunch of people, jumping into the space, Asic prices are low. There's a lot of demand for Rackspace but what we've seen sort of Looking at projects that the, the founders that have been around for a couple Cycles definitely are approaching the mining space much smarter than those were just jumping in and seeing an opportunity with the man responds off-grid flare mitigation. They obviously see the idea in the opportunity there but in mining particularly I think mining is like the where the volatility of Bitcoin is most significantly pronounced. I think we see. See the founder being more important than the idea really acutely because unless you've been through a few cycles and understand the Dynamics of the mining industry and the economics around it, it's really hard to just jump in with a good idea and execute as well as people have been around for a couple seconds, that's actually a great point because Marty credit to end has been for years talking about the lead time and setting up these Mega Minds and what the process is an opportunity cost. we saw it play out on path, 18 months and you know that sure I think the most recent was marathon and their transition from large-scale miners to more kind of modular or more flexible you know just quick early time to get to production and you know start accumulating BTC and I think that's what we've seen also with other firms that get into financial services that if you come from General Wall Street, you know might get you up to a certain point but the reality is the underlying technology and the way that the market structure has to be built is different Another example is blocked by where they, you know, we're a darling the space for years until it was a zero and I think that's just a product is not fundamentally understanding what's happening here. Then I guess the last one is Jesse just came to mind. Jesse reference the Winkle by and they were trying to whatever the quote was do Bitcoin the right way or you know, regulate Revelations need rules or whatever they said and they were awfully close to a billion dollars because they try to get yield on behalf of their clients. So I think the person yet to two murders Point of your question, like person really matters. Especially this early on is very few people that have entrepreneurial backgrounds and also, as I've looked at this, like problem for that long to understand, oh, there's a different way to call than what somebody would just come in off the street or from a traditional Wall Street background. Think about Well also maybe a lesson in keeping it relatively simple that, you know, Bitcoin and and the case of Gemini, you know, all coins weren't enough. So they had to kind of juice it by offering these other services and that's where the, that's where they got into trouble. And so, you know, there are some really well relatively straightforward, use cases that are already being addressed and we'll see how this evolves, but it seems like when you get too cute on the margins, that's when you get in trouble. Yeah, yeah. We're that's I said this on stage during the live rabbit I'll recap it Bitcoin 2023 at the conference earlier this year is like the things that excite me most in the space from a venture perspective are the most boring products. Something like unchanged lending desk which just has multi-institution multisig with over collateralized loans, Insurance products coming to Market. at mining in the mining space just like boring sort of Arbitrage deals, we're looking for low-cost energy and then really trying to figure out how to Reduce your overall cap X from a price per per megawatt hour, it's a price per megawatt, excuse me, it's the boring. And again, this goes back to like do order of operations, I do think we will have the really exciting sort of. I think Bitcoin will consume the medium of web 3.0 eventually. But in this early stages, I think the products that are actually relatively boring are going to be the most successful and that That will allow a base to be said, for, which means more exciting products can be built, right? Yeah, we're still in that era where the base layer is where the action is at in my book and the piping and infrastructure to help people who haven't yet. On-boarded to that base layer, reach that base layer is, you know, still still the bulk of the work I think, for, for Bitcoin, and Bitcoin companies. Because, you know, we're building the In trail here. And there's a lot of infrastructure that needs to be built. And it's still Earthen ruts, you know, and and a sparse network of refilling stations and we have to bring all of, you know, the whole population over this path. And there's, there's money to be made by helping in that journey and helping people do that the right way. Well, I love that that analogy, right? Because you used to perform it explain so much and, you know, so you can imagine like a general store next to the Oregon Trail, but you know, maybe it's too early for the casino or something like that will come in time and for now, it's just about picks and shovels and just getting the basics, right? Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Those as people died of dysentery on the Oregon Trail, the people had their Bitcoin locked and blocked by yield products It's this time. It's right. This has been an awesome conversation. We are running up on time. There any other topics you think we should touch on Michael Jesse David before we leave to sort of wrap up the focus of this conversation on where Bitcoin is and how institutions are approaching it? Why would have a question for you guys? So I haven't yet made it through True Confessions your last pod but about halfway through it. But so you know, I know that there's a recognition that the ETF products that are coming to Market or not perfect. And so I guess the question becomes from an educated perspective and viewing it through an opposite lens. You know what would make for if we're going to have a an ETF. It would make for Servant dream ETF. Yeah, so I think that the analogy that that I landed on to try to explain the good and the bad of what BlackRock is proposing is this bicycle that has one normal wheel and one square wheel and the good wheel is the grantor trust model, they've set up that allows for in-kind redemptions. That's awesome. That that is in line with Bitcoin and how people should look to You know, gain access to their Bitcoin, long term without a taxable event. The other side, the other wheel is the square wheel of BlackRock custody and governance where you know, they're applying the the expertise and experience and learnings of century of accumulated wisdom in traditional markets and saying a few things that you're leaving themselves open to a few. The things that do not jive with Bitcoin and how Bitcoin wants to be treated. One being the ability to re hypothecated whether or not they will TBD but that you know, is it something that that is done with ETFs, lending out the underlying asset to generate some more yield and that's dangerous with the coin. That's how you end up with a block 5 or 10 ft x. One point four billion dollars of paper Bitcoin that they didn't have that they owed. Reverse it. There's also the additional issue of forks and the politicization of forks since Black Rock asserts the right to choose which Fork is true. And that that's something you kind of need. You need you need to have that right establishing documents. But then it does leave this the champion of ESG and angle to potentially politicize which version of future bit. Bitcoin Fork is more in line with their politics. That's a little bit dangerous. And and those are the two big ones in my mind of why that model of the sort of traditional model of how you treat an asset in a fund is, is playing with fire when it comes to bitcoin. So, what we've tried to do with on-ramp is treat Bitcoin, the way it wants to be treated in terms Custody and governance and I think that's first and foremost by understanding Bitcoin, and appreciating its properties and wanting to do right by the end client, in terms of enabling the client to it receive all of the benefits of Bitcoin and all the rights that come with owning an asset like this. So it's a philosophical thing, it's an educational thing. And then it's Also a structural thing because having multi-institution multi-party custody is the best way to shift that the right from Black Rock or the issuer of the ETF and to the end client because when you have a multi-party custody or solution, like we've built with on-ramp, three institutions, hold the key. To the assets. And two of those institutions need to sign a transaction in order to effect control on the Assets in the vault and that makes it impossible to rehypothecation. It also mitigates the counterparty risk of you know, right now the US government could go to Black Rock and say give us your Bitcoin, you know, we know that you or coinbase are the two people that can hand it over to us right now. Now and having a multi-party custody solution makes that harder. It doesn't completely eliminate that potential but it but it requires coordination and, you know, chronological coordination as well. So, you know, those are the ways in which approaching this from a Bitcoin first point of view can deliver a better product for onboarding institutional Capital to bitcoin while and you know, making it so that they don't have to take on self custody right now and develop the processes and and roles and responsibilities of. How are we going to self custody? But enabling that in the future by when people are ready to take on self custody, if they decide that, that is a path that they want to explore. So, I hope that provides a little more color about like, I think that the ideal approach to a Bitcoin ETF is half of what black rock is done and then half of a Bitcoin first perspective and philosophy. Yeah I think just a few things to look. Jesse says the transparency you want to know if a large pool of assets we still don't even know where gbtc is Bitcoin. Is that? It's at coinbase but we never seen an address or no that's just not good for anybody. The you know obviously central point of failure, you want to produce that the ability to take possession is huge because over the course of time as a price appreciation of the asset, appreciate the risk profile changes. And then you want to at least be have that option ality to take it. One thing that Jesse didn't talk about About. And I think it's important and it had, we haven't seen in the asset management space is a, it's very easy to buy it. Like we talked about, I think I'm the last Potter. Matt did about exit liquidity, and that generally people enter into trade when the momentum is going, and then they're selling at the bottom. And, and I think a lot of that has to do in the Bitcoin space because they don't understand what they're holding and why they bought it. And so it's where I big focus at on-ramp and be part of Jesse's contact and others that were bringing on is like the educational focus and understanding the fundamentals. The price moves against your exposure you're saying oh it's not Bitcoin that blew up its Block B ft x and we haven't seen that in the space as partially why we're Bitcoin only because we can actually explain what's happening versus these other firms that are doing the long tail of crypto assets assets and baskets of all this stuff. They're kind of like sitting on their hands. If you imagine because their investors like what's happening and they can't say, oh we put you in all these policies may just blow up another unregistered Securities. They're just like whatever they tell them, they tell them but they can't tell them the truth. I can't imagine because then they're just like what Did you do this? Why did you put me in these positions? And so I think black rock is that's going to be a big part. It's like they don't understand it like maybe one person does, but ultimately the person that's having a call with a pension and endowment and institution, and they're buying the personally, pick up the phone, when it cuts in half, because it never lie will it'll do whatever it does and then something will happen. It's just a private price of the, you know, pricing Mecca pricing exposure in the market. Finding the, you know, the different equilibriums when it cuts in half, they're not going to know why there's can tell, you know, the The person is going to sell and then they're going to lose out on the games and all the things that we've seen over the course of. So I think that's a big part is like the education and being able to articulate like why the price is appreciating, why it's doing what it does, the supply mechanisms and everything, we know that goes along with it and I think that will be very helpful and institutions and building trust from going from 1% to 5% to 10% versus 1% 20 because they're pissed off that you just you know you just lost they just hit 80 percent return drawdown and now everybody's yelling at them versus this. A long-term place you should size it, accordingly on your first step and then subsequent after that. Yeah. And not do it, not do it, Marty to dinner with you claim earlier, and that he's going to call and tell them to put 50%, or they should, but he won't. Hey, by the way, your occurs to me that I had said earlier, I don't know what the optimal allocation was I think. Actually, some years ago I read something that maybe nine digit put out that something on the order of 10%. Of course everybody has a different risk profile, but but then made sense and I can't quote it verbatim, but that did seem to Nate. So anyway, I just want to throw that out there now that we're talking about allegations again, you know down in Texas. We keep things pretty simple and the sayings and good friend says you buy enough Bitcoin. Where if it doubles in price you don't sell it. And if it cuts in half, you don't sell it. Yes, I love Hornet, you size it accordingly and that's like, should be your first exposure. So you're not freaking out, the price Cuts in half, you just feel good about it, you're like, okay, understand this could happen and if it doubles your not like oh my God just made incredible, gain life, changing You're out, just enough to get your first like bit of exposure and that's perfect. I did have another question which is, is alcohol. The glue that keeps the show together. So this is the July 4th pod. We're all or some of us are different places in the country visiting family, and some in mother-in-law's lake house and to in a corner of a bar, there's kids coming. So yeah, there's a little bit. My favorite part about that sign is, it looks like there's a bit of tape that covers up half of a word that and it should read. Alcohol is the glue that keeps this shitshow together, but it's over there. So bit of tape blocking half of that word, maybe I'll call is the glue that keeps this show together at some point, maybe that's enough. Our as you know, Michael, you're young. Father, I used to drink a lot. Auntie FTC in our HR and the early days early 20s and it's not worth it. Keeping drinking on the podcast anymore. Our good friend, Matt is still coming up that curve on purpose. This is the drinking, you're in the Pod. Yeah. Well, he and Jack mellors were dipping into the sauce on a recent podcast or forgotten who the host was, but they're being reviewed having just emerged from the Oslo Freedom forum. And it was clear that the other enjoying themselves as well, they should be. You got a, it's a heavy, heavy industry to be on, we talk about a lot of heavy topics and stuff like that. Everything in moderation went when appropriate I'm a fan of getting set for your Bitcoin, allocation should be 50% fairness. I kid I kid. Well David thank you for joining us this week. It's been an incredible conversation. I think whether you realize it or not individuals like yourself with your Or background coming out and supporting Bitcoin is massive for the space. If, if only for sending a signal to your peer group to like, hey, there, there is something here. And I think considering the the times we find ourselves in individuals like yourself, going out there and sticking your neck out. Your reputation on behalf of Bitcoin is is a massive benefit to the space overall. Super well, thanks for saying so and it's a pleasure to do it. It was a pleasure to participate. I'm a big admirer both each of you individually but also where you're done with on-ramp and in some of the other Associated Ventures. So thank you for having been such a worthy spokesman for the space because we need your voices and just as I mentioned you know, your writing style is so accessible, really appreciate that and and Marty your your Twitter posts keep me entertained. That too. So value to the space. Thank you. Thank you, David, really, appreciate that. And and I would Echo what Marty says is, you know, this is a game of viral propagation of the message of Bitcoin, the value of Bitcoin, and that's how we get through the adoption curve. And it's, it's everybody. But especially, as helpful when people like, you, you know, stand up and say this thing, This thing is real, it has value and people should pay attention. Yeah. Just like, oh that appreciate you. Joining also the signs of encouragement and in recognizing what we're doing because it means a lot on, you know, we come from the Bitcoin side, we think we're on to something, but then we've had no shortage of folks that have tenure in the traditional world that say, oh, this is how I see this plane out, or this is how we mirror both sides. And you know, traditional finance and then the Bitcoin Finance. Uh thanks for joining and have a good Edge alive 4th weekend and you know, see everybody next week. You guys do the same. It's pleasure that is take, mark, that I take more days end. Yeah, yeah. There we can end it. However, everybody enjoy your July 4th weekend. Do everything in moderation. Don't get too crazy out there except for your big one application. Love it.