The Last Trade E020: Building the Bloomberg Terminal for Bitcoin with Alon Shvartsman

What you're telling me is that music is about to stop, and we're going to be left holding the biggest bag of bodarous extras ever assembled in the history of doubtless 1974198792972000? Whatever we want to call this, it's all just the same thing over and over. We can't help ourselves. I say when we. Sell, hey, I say when we sell. And we're live, gentlemen, another edition of the last trade. It's a very rainy, rainy day here in Austin, TX. And wake up at 6:00 AM To drive my brother to the airport. Usually takes 30 minutes round trip. Get to the airport, drop off, get back home. Took me an hour today, double the time. People in Texas don't know how to drive in the rain, apparently. What's up with this, Mr. Tangoma? Why don't Texans know how to drive in the rain? I don't know. I just, I got lost in thought when you mentioned your brother. And I just, I always laugh at, you know, your brother coming into the scene a few years ago and people being confused at conferences or on Twitter and and AD reads and people's heads exploding and not sure if they should bring it up. Is it like to Marty change? Is he the same? Is he work for Unchained? Is he not? That's my brother. We look a lot. There's another. Marty Dent or Marty Dent? Man of mystery, Man of mystery. We're not here to talk about mystery today, though. We're here to talk about hardcore facts. The data of the Bitcoin network. Big launch at Onramp. Today the onramp or yesterday this week the onramp terminal terminal. Dot onrampbitcoin.com if you guys wanna check it out. We are joined today with Elan from New Hedge, which is the back end infrastructure of the terminal that that onramp is using, and we're gonna dump into it. We're gonna dive into the data today. Elan, welcome to the show. Thank you so much. I'm really happy to be here. And speaking about, I guess you're talking about Austin Bergstrom Airport. Is that the one you're talking about? Yes. Yeah. So. Raised in Austin, TX and I think the problem is, is that Texans know how to drive. The problem is that people not from Texas are coming to Texas and they're ruining the roads for the Texans. That's that's the main issue. Is this a dig at me? Is this a dig at me? It's it's a dig at non Texans whether that's you. Yeah, that's been that's been me before and will be me again. I guess that's me right now. Coming from the Northeast, so you were bit more aggressive drivers in the Northeast. Not everybody's strapped up there, so everybody's everybody's willing to be a bit more aggressive. It's funny how everybody's a lot more, a lot more polite when when violence is is is a is a draw away. That's the basis of Southern hospitality. We talked about not getting off the rails before we hit record. We're a little bit off the rails now on. What you've built is incredibly impressive in new Hedge. Before we dive into what you're building, what I would describe is the Bloomberg Terminal for bitcoiners. Let's talk a little bit about your journey and how you ended up building New Hedge. Specifically, what were you doing before and what made you decide? Like, all right, I'm going to go build the Bloomberg Terminal for bitcoiners. Yeah, sure. So I was actually part of, I guess, the class of 2017. That's when I was introduced to Bitcoin and immediately became enthralled. And I actually took, I guess, a similar approach where I kind of didn't understand what was I looking at. And in 2017, you already had a lot of crypto assets as well. So I kind of assumed naively that, you know, Bitcoin is old technology and there's newer technology out there. So let's let's start looking into that. So I went down the, you know the I had a bear market which kind of put me in my place and then that's actually when I started going very deep down the rabbit hole. So I think Safe Dean's The Bitcoin Standard was kind of like my first stepping stone into that to kind of realize that I'm not just looking at technology, I'm looking at I'm looking at economics. I'm looking at philosophy. I'm looking at human nature. And then like like everyone else I guess in the space I wanted to contribute as well. I just, I didn't want to be on the sidelines. So I wanted to do something to kind of contribute to to Bitcoin. So around 2018 I started building a educational site called Bearar. It's one that probably a lot of bitcoiners have not heard of cuz it's geared more towards newcomers and newbies. But essentially what the site does is it helps people find. The best place to buy Bitcoin based on their country. So when I got in in 2017, it was a little bit easy because the only options for, you know, for someone from the US was was Coinbase. So that was kind of like a no brainer to just kind of dive in as someone who doesn't know anything about the space. And as that became a little bit more rich, I started noticing that there's a lot of countries where they have their own, you know, exchanges, their own regulations, and people aren't using the exchanges that I'm using. So I kind of built out this. This really cool website that helps people. So they would kind of come in, they would say okay, I'm from Albania, Croatia, and we built me and my cofounder just a small ranking algorithm that would take all the exchanges that work in that jurisdiction and rank it based on web traffic fees. We would take the live price from the trading book, add the fees onto it so people could gauge exactly like at what price they're going to get it at premiums and stuff like that and. So that was so that was fully launched in 2019. So that was that was like a big wow for me to to to actually contribute to to Bitcoin in in the way that I could coming from kind of like a web development and programming background. So that site now gets around 2 million organic visits per year, and that kind of started my kind of like my Bitcoin business journey. But obviously on the side, I've been delving into podcasts and books and I've been kind of like a full time bitcoiner since 2017. Awesome. So what drove you to data particularly? Did you notice? Yeah, so there was something missing. The mark is obviously we have things like coin metrics, glass node, I guess you can say men pulled out space. There's all these types of different data sites. Drove you to build new hedge specifically in the way that you did? Yeah. So I'll try without not, you know, without digging too much into kind of like other, you know, other sites and other players out there. But I kind of saw that not looking at them pulled up space. But there was a lot of these like really, really cool cryptoanalytic websites that gave you like deep insights into what's happening. But it looked like. From my perspective that they were kind of looking at, you know, the whole crypto space as one conglomerate. You know, obviously you don't know the ideologies behind the people who are working on these projects. But it just kind of seemed like I would jump onto Masari for instance, just to take a look at some Bitcoin data and I'd get like a pop up like do you want to see our, you know, full in depth research on Solana And I'll just be like, well that's not what I'm, I will never be here for that so. So, so around 2020, just because my personal site bearer was getting a lot of traffic and it was helping a lot of people, you know, take their first steps into Bitcoin, I started saying with my cofounder like, you know, like Bitcoin is open. Like let's let's run a node, let's let's try to see if we can create some of these like really cool metrics. So we first started off with trying to recreate like Plan B's stock to flow, which actually has nothing to do with the node, it's mostly just price. But then we started building a lot of these really cool things with like the node that we were running and we started seeing a lot of the traffic from just kind of like the retail side that would just come to visit the site just to see, you know, what's the best hardware wallet to store their Bitcoin and where's the best place to buy. It's actually these charts that we were running, which was mostly like Bitcoin and SMP correlation or. You know, we started building a very early version of like companies that were putting Bitcoin on the balance sheet. So like that was around Michael Saylor's time in 2020. So we started building a lot of these metrics and a lot of the website traffic started gearing towards that. So, so I kind of realized that we were in the early stages of building a Bitcoin focused terminal and when I started looking at what everyone else was doing, you know they had amazing metrics and they had like these amazing data scientists and Python scripts running. But I always saw that it was, it was, it was almost taking the user and leaning them into crypto as like take a look at everything that's happening. And I didn't really get a lot of deep insights into Bitcoin. And when I did, I would have like 20 tabs open and I'd be looking at different websites, one for nodes, one for mining activity, one for, you know, price action and stuff like that. So I'd have these 20 tabs open and I kind of realized, why don't we just? Condense this all into into one terminal. So give kind of users a Bloomberg Terminal esque experience and keep it Bitcoin focused, which allows me, my cofounder and now our team to to really dig deep into Bitcoin and to create a lot of metrics that I would assume that a lot of people haven't seen. So. So we have like a lot of proprietary metrics and a lot of things that if a team wasn't solely focused on Bitcoin, they'd probably just skip over it. They would have never gotten to it so. That's how the Edge came about. Yeah, I love the sharing about the Origin because I think I started to get a little nostalgic in that like we're getting ready. I think if we've been around long enough, we know this like next wave of adoption comes and I think we've, I've said this multiple times. We've been in this like phase for the past almost five years. And if you'd like, if we can discuss a little bit about 2019 and anchor back to that. I think there's a lot of folks that weren't around. And it's kind of like really beautiful to see when you think of like a Bitcoin only terminal or Bitcoin only companies were very rare back that multi sig was just like coming out of like OK maybe this might work but the user it wasn't very user friendly. So it's fascinating here like you were in the midst of it. There was, you know the crypto the block and Masari, but you had got push this and then take a Bitcoin from first principles thinking of like OK, I understand data. This is interesting. Now I need to like build it and eventually it'll come and it feels like this is right about the time where when they're coming because. We talked about this a few episodes ago with Chris Kuiper from Fidelity and he said exactly, almost exactly what the Bloomberg this terminal would be for is that to institutional allocators. If you just take your eyes off the price and you look at all the fundamentals that we'll dive into, it looks like all time highs. It looks like this thing is never going back. That's. Exactly right. And that's exactly what you can see with the on terminal as well. So I guess we'll dive into those metrics and then you'll see that that's exactly right if you just. To remove kind of like the the crypto hype cycles and focus on Bitcoin, you'll actually see that you know this is the 600 pound grill in the room, this is what's moving the market, whether that's, whether that's trading volume, whether that's long term holders, whether that's miners entering like we'll see, everything is becoming all time high and that's completely adjacent to price. And it bears repeating that for almost everyone in the world. All that they know is the Bitcoin price. All that they know is the headlines about Bitcoin. And for for almost everyone in the world, Bitcoin is dead, right? As it has been several times before, many times before. And it's been dead for at least a year, right? Like we had the crash, it it's dead and done, it's been flatlined for at least a year. And that's the perspective, the mentality of almost everyone in the world at meanwhile, all these. Actual fundamental metrics show the the opposite is very much true. And and so you know, I just think it's I think it's so interesting how people who are paying attention to Bitcoin and have taken Bitcoin seriously have just such a fundamental mindset difference versus people who are just listening to the headlines. Because the people who are listening to the headlines have no idea that there's any merit under the surface here. All they think is it's tulips and that there's a price and it's dead and and anybody who's paying attention has a massive advantage over 99% of the world who's not paying attention. And all you have to do is look at these metrics in order to to show yourself to like build conviction in your own mind that you know what, there is something happening here. I can see it. It's in the data. But 99% of the world is not looking at this data. So that's your, that's your opportunity to have an advantage in this market. Exactly. And actually it reminds me of an article that you actually wrote and I had not made the connection that you were Creases BPC until actually a couple of days ago. But I actually read your article and this was back in 2020. The Why the yuppie elite dismissed Bitcoin. And then you accompany that with a podcast with Preston Fish, which which I found fascinating because that was a, that was a concept that like I think we were all thinking. But no one put it into words like why are all these people just missing this and just following I guess kind of price and headlines and not understanding that underneath there's this like fundamental shift of what like monetary policy looks like on a, you know, when you get central parties out of it. Like that's that's what we're looking at here. And yeah, I just want to say that I think that article was amazing. I can't help but think, but think. And Marty, I'd love for you like thoughts on this because you're in the middle of it. But like, there's the data that comes in, right? And the data is, it's almost like it's out there, you're pulling it, you're seeing it, you can't really touch it. But there's this thought of, like, what happens in Bitcoin, how do we live in this world where we get to that point? And it's it's never it's assumed the world will be different, but it's not known. Because like $1,000,000 BTC in the world's difference just inherently will be whether it's the price of other assets or the dollar. But then if we think about from back to 2019 to today, think about how much has changed from like minor percentage in China to. In this reference, Marty, Marty, like we were in New York City that was the capital of the world for Bitcoin, no matter what anybody says when it comes to developers and it's not anymore. And it had to move to a different jurisdiction. And all these things that have like completely changed over the past three years that are underneath the data in the real world that like it meets. It's just an interesting thought that like we're sitting here and it's very different than 2019. Yeah. If we go back to 2019, I mean, I was deeply immersed in the mining industry back then. Beginning my mining journey or the year into my mining journey 2019, just to think of the mining industry learn, I mean you mentioned China, the China ban and the great migration of hash rate across the world in 2021 was pretty massive. But then also in parallel, you had this sort of shift in the industry where up until that point it was a bit of a cottage industry where you had the bunch of these digital wildcatters, if you will, just plugging in machines. Where they could at the cheapest electricity, with the chip, with the cheapest electricity cost. Everybody thought miners were crazy, but over the last four years we've really seen the theme of energy companies beginning to grok Bitcoin mining and implement to get into their operational stacks, take hold, which is massive for the industry. And then likewise, in 2019 the Lightning Network was only a year old. We're now 5 1/2 years in. And so and it's becoming mature, it's becoming much easier to build on. It's got more liquidity. I mean River, Alex Leishman Sweeting out yesterday, their node facilitated 4 million transactions in the month of September. So those metrics are going up. You mentioned Multicig earlier, Michael. It was very nation then and now obviously on ramp exists Unchained had the big announcement for their key list Multicig. Solution This week it's becoming abundantly clear that that Multicig is an incredible primitive to build off of. You have companies like Anchorwatch and the the Wizard Sardine guys in Lania bringing their products to market. That the landscape is completely different and this is just the technical aspects of physical infrastructure, the mining industry, the technical infrastructure at the lightning layer, the technical infrastructure at multicig and then all the while. Even though the price has gone up and down over that time and I think we'll dive into it, the metrics, the on chain metrics in terms of the amount of wallets that are holding 1,000,000 Sats, 10 million Sats, one whole Bitcoin are going up, people are holding for longer, people are pulling their Bitcoin off exchanges. And so the fundamentals from mining at the protocol level, at 2nd layers and at the adoption have all significantly increased up and to the right over this time despite. The volatility and price running up to 65, whatever it was down to 16 and a half 15 1/2 and currently sitting at at 28,000 during that that price roller coaster, all these fundamentals have gotten significantly better. And and part of that also is like the greater sophistication of business models. You talked about how the mining industry has evolved, but a great little tidbit from from just yesterday from. Riot is in September. Pierre Rashard tweeted about how in September Riot produced 362 Bitcoin from mining and received 511 Bitcoin worth of payments for demand response, Stabilizing the Texas grid. You know, so, so Riot has cleverly incorporated playing ball with the Texas grid to help stabilize it, you know, using the programs that they have available there. To make that part of their business model help stabilize the Texas energy grid and improve their, you know, economics as a result of that, that's like that's the the mining industry going from wildcatters just four years ago to like an integral part of how Texas is approaching grid stabilization and making money for it. It's it's fantastic to see in just four years. Yeah, And when you think about that time scale, four years, it's really not that long. It feels like an eternity in Bitcoin, but it's not even a it hasn't even been like a whole presidential cycle. Biden's not even done his first term yet, and all this has happened. But I guess let's look at the data. Elan, you've been building New Edge, really trying to surface these metrics and these high signal data points in the Bitcoin network. As you were building New Edge, what were some of the metrics? That stuck out to you. That really emboldened your your conviction in Bitcoin. It's, it's it's kind of good that we were talking about mining right before this question because everything related to mining was absolutely amazing to see because as you see price drop around 50 to 60% from all time highs. If you're looking at these mining metrics like hash rate and difficulty, we're reaching all times high in those. So, so you're you're putting a strain on minors where they're actually it's harder to mine, there's more people mining the hash rate is going absolutely hyperbolic and and the actual rewards minor revenue is actually coming down it's it's almost it's like you know we can show it on the screen minor revenue is absolutely stagnant. So it's it's actually really interesting to see that even in times where price price action is suboptimal I guess and you would you would assume that that's kind of what minors are looking at. Minors are actually doubling down and they're plugging in and they're and they're pushing network difficulty to all time highs and hash rate as well. So I think that was kind of like the most interesting just base layer just kind of like when we were looking at the data like that was insanely interesting. So, so yeah, so there you can see in the blue and that's the hash rate and then obviously the price is in orange and you can see from that all time high, you know we've, you know prices drawn down 50 to 60% yet in that same time hash rate has just absolutely been on a rip. Yeah, I think. Looking at this chart particularly, you can see the China ban in 2021 with that 25% reduction in hash rate. And I think the Shard is beautiful because it just highlights the anti fragility of the Bitcoin network. Hash rate fell by 25% and it recovered within a year, within six months back to where it was before the China ban because the economic incentive to figure out where to plug those miners in was so high. And it's worth that. It's worth. Reminding everyone of of what it felt like then and what the narratives were in that 234 month period where hash rate. You know, at that point in time, the the chart looked really ugly because, you know, it had been up and to the right. And then suddenly it's it's Thanksgiving. Turkey's Wellness. So, you know, suddenly dropping off precipitously. And it looked like this could be a mortal blow to the Bitcoin network. And that narrative people ran with that narrative. The the people who. Who frankly want to see Bitcoin die were were loudly proclaiming its death at that point in time But then the antifragility of of economic opportunity on Bitcoin for for anyone who had hash rate available and could step in to take advantage of China going offline, you know that one in the long term but at that moment in time it felt like Bitcoin could die. It felt like it felt like people thought Bitcoin could die and that we were in some sort of negative headline news spiral as a result of that. And then, you know, a few years have passed and you can look back on that moment in time as just another blip, another test of Bitcoin's antifragility, where Bitcoin passed with flying colors. And you know, I think it's for for longterm holders. You live through a bunch of those. Narratives for different reasons and different points in time why Bitcoin is doomed. And time and again they end up amounting to nothing. And you stop putting any weight in those. The next narrative that comes around, you know, maybe, maybe it's going to be with the 2024 election, politicians are going to ban Bitcoin. And you know, who knows what it's going to be next, but. It ends up not working out because the fundamentals of this thing are just so, so resilient to and and and rooted in human behavior and in human incentive rather than anything else. And you know, the China mining ban is the perfect example of Bitcoin's antifragility and why whenever the next FUD comes around, the next narrative for why Bitcoin is doomed, You have to. Take a step back and and think about from first principles, Does this does this hurt people's opportunity to make money by adopting Bitcoin? And if not then Bitcoin will survive. And the answer is always there's opportunity to adopt Bitcoin or or mine Bitcoin and make money and that's why Bitcoin keeps surviving. And I don't want to hog the mic too much, but I do think. That period during the China ban, since I was in the mining industry, that's when I became most convicted. I mean, I was pretty convicted, but being behind the scenes, everybody over here in the US and the mining industry was brokering basically the facilitation of the migration of the A6 from China. Either they here in the USI mean a lot of people with the Kazakhstan, South America, the Nordic countries, but just being behind the scenes and literally as soon as the ban came down. That's what a lot of people don't realize is yes, China is a communist country, but there's very hyper capitalistic aspects of their economy and so the I make the argument that the Chinese Bitcoin miners in the 1st 15 years. Of Bitcoin's existence are probably the most hyper capitalistic subsect of the whole market, and it was crazy to see as soon as the ban came down, just how creative they got and how quickly they moved to to get their ASICS out of China into, say, for shores outside of the Ccp's borders. Isn't there like a case? I haven't thought deeply about it, but just from a, you know, first principles like don't tell me or. The whole saying like show me your portfolio, I don't want to hear what you say. It's like minors are the old ultimate bullish on the network. They're putting all their capital in it. And that's where like when you see that chart with the hash rate continue to grow independent of the price. It's like they're as long as you can be physical, you know mental professional in it and continuing to like plan for that growth of the the price because eventually you can be upside down there. What's your. Yeah, I'm just curious like the thought cuz that's always been in that thought in my head, but I know there's probably other bullish charts are fundamental, but I'm curious like the thoughts after looking at that chart. Yeah, so actually on top of that chart, if speaking on anti fragility, I think another chart to just actually show how anti fragile the network is is the Bitcoin node map. So I don't know if we could pull that up right now, but after that mining ban, so we were running this script that was actually put together by the team of bit nodes, which was a methodology to actually gather the amount of reachable and listening nodes in the network, extract their IP addresses and put that in kind of on a globe. So that's exactly what we did here. And if you spin over to China, so you'll see that there is still what is that number, is that 50? Yep. So there's still 50 individual IP addresses running Bitcoin Core. So we don't know if they're mining nodes, if they're archival nodes, pruned nodes or full nodes. But this speaking on antifragility, this was kind of like an amazing metric to see. Obviously the number was higher before the Bitcoin mining ban, but to know that there's fifty individual IP addresses still running Bitcoin Core is absolutely fascinating. And I think on the one year anniversary NASDAQ was actually looking into into you know the one year anniversary of the Bitcoin mining ban and actually featured that chart that we that we produced in their in their kind of research. So that was kind of more testament as to, you know, like this thing is unstoppable. Like even when you have the most authoritarian government banning the act of mining, you still have IP addresses running it, which is amazing. That would only be the non Tor nodes right? Like the Tor nodes wouldn't be like Geo located IP, right, Exactly. Yeah. So if you actually go back to that chart and scroll a little bit down, we actually identify the amount of the percentage of nodes that are actually Tor. So I think, yeah, if you scroll a little bit down, OK, yeah, node exactly. So the torrent so around 63% are actually running through Tor and those are ones that we cannot get IP addresses on. And so there could be a ton of Tor nodes in China, and they just don't show up like, you know, And that's part of why you can't stop Bitcoin, because the Chinese authorities would like to find what nodes are running in China and stop them, but they can't because of Tor. There's a impossible thing to. I mean, and it should be it should, Michael, before you join. It should be highly the fact that more than half the nodes running in the world are running behind Tor is extremely bullish. They're hard to identify. Yeah. And these are just reachable. So there's other methodologies. So there's you can obviously run a node and have it not connect with other nodes, which is I think what most people are doing. So I actually think that this is a very small percentage of the actual nodes running Bitcoin Core. It's. A good distinction. What's also really bullish, there is and we talk about this a lot as soon as we get in trouble about where Bitcoin adoption will ultimately, you know, come from or grow. And you see like 1600 nodes in the US on this chart. And it was good that Logan pulled it up, because it looks like second, which is kind of surprising. I didn't expect Germany to be. Like 21 Germany's. Number one or two, I think it's #2 number. One US #1, the point in that, the point in that being that that. The US really leading the way and like innovation you because you think about the nodes as a number of like a proxy for the number of individuals that are facilitating other things other than just running a node, right. Whether it's businesses they're they're putting in like intellectual thought to like set that up. But anyway, it's just like a it was a common thing that's come up if you actually look in this ties into discussion on emerging markets where emerging markets are important, but if you go to the back to the top Logan. Look at the the, the number. So we have 1600 US, 1200 Germany, 400 France and then drops in Netherlands, in Canada. But this is where you'll see Bitcoin adoption from an actual like activity and innovation. I would expect in these top ten countries before you start going to, you know other markets that you'll hear a lot of the focus but ultimately won't move the needle, at least in my opinion. Well, this is probably indicative of business formation too. Because you're running a a proper Bitcoin business, you're going to run your own node to ensure that. You're validating the data that you're providing your customers, or using to facilitate businesses as well. I would say that's a part of it. But at the same time, if somebody's facilitating their safety or like their savings, they're inherently educated if they're gonna put money and capital there. So they would inherently like part of that be running a node to make sure that it confirms so. Yeah, it's certainly correlated. People running nodes or orange peeling the people around them and maybe starting Bitcoin businesses or incorporating Bitcoin into their existing business. And so it certainly correlated with societal Bitcoin adoption. Yeah. What are some of your favorite non mainstream metrics that you guys have in the terminal that sort of stick out to you. So obviously we have some fun ones just to kind of like play, you know play into kind of like the memification of a lot of these, you know, Moon Boy metrics like we have the rainbow charts which is just kind of like a fun one. It's a log logarithmic regression with these colorful bands just to kind of just to, you know, I guess people use it just to kind of gauge on a on a log scale tops and bottoms. That's kind of like a fun one just to look at and just to. Jesse, Love. Jesse knows. Jesse knows that chart very intimately. It's the stock to flow chart. No, Marty, not. Yeah, it's the chart that lampoons stock to flow rather effectively. Yeah. Yeah. So there you can kind of see just just bands and this is just logarithmic regression. And then you kind of see the price moving through the bands. And I guess, I guess what like the only I guess interesting thing here without it being a meme is that you can kind of see that based on this, there was no blow off top in the 2021-2022 kind of bull cycle. And I guess that's the only interesting thing to gather from this. I guess, like, I also obviously like looking at some fun metrics as well. I think another really cool one that I like to look at and update a lot is Treasuries, which is the amount of Bitcoin being held on public and private balance sheets of companies. Yeah, so this is kind of a pie chart just kind of showing where most of that Bitcoin is being held. But if you scroll a little bit further down, you can actually see each company when when they purchased their cost basis, today's value, the amount of Bitcoin that they hold a percent of the 21 million. And this one I really, really liked like obviously, like we've probably seen Bitcoin, a Bitcoin treasury table before. What I kind of noticed was that it's kind of community sourced. So people just kind of drop in and say like, hey, I know this company that's holding 66 Bitcoin on the balance sheet, but there's kind of no proof of that. So with this approach, I kind of really wanted to look at filings to see like, all right, if it's a public company, is there like SEC filings and 8K that I can look at to actually see if they're buying or selling? And then obviously with private companies like I think block one is there. So not block, but block One that is a company. They're the ones that launched a shake coin called EOS back in 2017. And what's actually interesting is that a lot of the proceeds that they got from selling the ICO, they converted to Bitcoin. So they're actually holding, I don't know if we can see that. Yeah, block one is actually holding 140,000 Bitcoin. That's a, that's a huge amount and that's a private company. And what we did is actually linked to where the CEO of that company actually made the announcement that this is how much they hold on their balance sheet, which so this one I really like to look at. Yeah. And that. Yeah, Sorry. Go ahead. I was gonna say just the whole just thing about 1 caliber of holder like corporations holding Bitcoin on their balance sheet this is. One subset of the potential Hotler base and that is a theme that's increasing, especially as we have treasury markets going haywire right now. There's definitely people looking for different assets to hold their liquid reserves in. Yeah, we're actually interesting. If you go further down, you can actually see the amount actually being held in treasuries and it actually is correlated with the amount of Bitcoin that's actually left the mine. So, you know, we only have 92 percent, 90 or close to 93% of the Bitcoin supply actually circulating. So we have another, you know, 7 to 8% that's going to be mined, which equates to around 1.4 million Bitcoin that's left to mine. And so these treasuries actually started with Michael Saylor and that was in 2020. So since then they've accumulated these public and private companies $1.6 million, that's, I'm sorry, 1.6 million Bitcoin is being held on the balance sheets, which is, Which is actually incredible. That's 44 billion USD value today, yeah? It's awesome. I'm just going through the the terminal right now on the on the side panel of all the various charts you have and I've never seen this Never look back price chart which is a pretty cool metric. Logan, if you want to find that and pull it up, the the chart just shows the Bitcoin price chart. And if you if you click you know the all year's view, you can see how you know there's a lot of noise and there's bubbles along the way. But over time it's kind of the never look back price, the price at which you know the the the, the price that you know, you never go below. It never returns. It rises in a stepwise fashion over time and it kind of lines up with the havings a little bit. Yeah, you gotta click that all at the top right Logan? Yeah, cool metric to see. This is why a Bitcoin terminal is so valuable to take a look at the data and find the signal in the noise, right? Cuz the Bitcoin price chart has a ton of noise and it's easy to not make sense of it. But by looking at these various metrics, you can say. You know what? There's something here of of Bitcoin is frankly Bitcoin is monetizing, right. It's going from Internet Monopoly money that's not worth anything and and it it is bootstrapping itself, monetizing its way to becoming digital gold for the Internet era and that never look back. Price shows that process with the noise removed. I think that's really cool metric and one of the gems in here that that you guys have made. Yeah, it's it's a great call out Jesse about part of this and investing in this and we're glad to meet Alon and work together on this is really like I think there's a subset of individuals listening to this that this could be helpful. But it's really individuals looking to, to Jesse's point about like this common thought that the price of Bitcoin at any given time, whatever the number, is right now $27,000. And you know. Allocators, skeptics, there's this inherent bias because if you didn't get in when you heard about it at 3K, it's like, oh, and probably going to go to 0 at a certain point. And that this realization that there's a lot happening between zero and $27,000 and it's all in this terminal. And so to the extent that somebody's interested, you can share this, we'll get them access and then they can go in and pull through and we'll be producing content and reports to go and show that. Some of the most bullish, I think Jesse shared 1 Logan, if you can pull up on the market tab, the one that's always stuck with me and it was really cool. I don't know if we added. Feedback or you already had it along, but it's Bitcoin profitable days because it's it's such a great like snapshot of just like looking at this thing and you just have this, like you know, we're a little bit more in red than you generally see on this chart. But still it's just a great like 15 years and you have these like little periods where you're just if you if you didn't hold long enough, you're sitting in red. But as long as you can have a longer, you know, lower time preference, longer term view, you're going to be okay in preserving wealth and value. Michael did clarify. We just said that. I mean, there were times in Bitcoin's history, if you pulled the chart back up, Logan, where it looks similar to this where you had red at the end, like that red that is red right now will eventually be green. Like if you go back to 2018, everything to the left of that was probably red. Yeah, that Marty. I think that's a good distinction. Really to to me, what this chart says is even though it feels like Bitcoin is dead. This has happened before and and everybody who bought at the top in 20/18/2017 in December 2017, they're they're sitting pretty now, right? Like they're even though it was a painful few years, they are in the profit. They are in profit now. If you bought the top in 2013 at $1000, you were an idiot for three years and and now you've made a 27X on your money. And so, even though right now people who bought at the top probably regret it, history shows that that you know, as Bitcoin keeps doing its thing, you will be happy that you bought at at 65,000 in 2021 in a few years. Yeah, and this goes back to another point too. Like, it could actually have been more read. Alon, you brought it up during? The part of the show we were looking at the rainbow chart, but we didn't have a blow off top in 2021. And this is The funny thing about narratives in the market, particularly around FTXA lot of people were trying to proclaim that FTX was artificially pushing the price higher with their wash trading. But the reality the situation is they were taking Bitcoin and selling it to buy real estate in the Caribbean, to buy politicians, to buy shit coins, whatever it may be. You know you could. Arguably it went higher if FTX wasn't participating in overt fraud. Another like a totally different type of Alon has so many cool metrics in here. We've been talking purely about the the market section. But you know, on the on the side panel here there's a bunch of different categories and one of them is derivatives. And there's another chart in here that I've I've never seen pulled together so cleanly before. So, Logan, if you want to go to the derivatives category and go to the BTC Futures open interest chart, this shows align. Correct me if I'm wrong here but this shows the nominal futures contracts on Bitcoin across these various exchanges at every point in time over the last few years really since the the advent of futures markets in Bitcoin. And you can see how there are certain moments in time like like recently futures interest was was ticking upwards in I I guess that was probably August of 2023 and right then we got a a bunch of longs long leverage wiped out with our our drop from 30 down to 25 or whatever that was thousand per per Bitcoin. And this tells I I think this is a very helpful dashboard to be able to pull up and take a look at is the market perhaps over leveraged right now or what explains the recent drop, was it leverage getting wiped out And and that we can see to hear that that was the case with the most recent drop about a month ago where we took off a fair bit of leverage out of the market and it hasn't really returned which is while meanwhile the price has been slowly ticking back upwards towards 30,000 which to me is a very bullish indicator that the price is drifting upwards. Leverage is not being added, at least not to the level that it was. And that is a healthy market, a healthy Bitcoin uptrend, even though it's very modest at at this point in time. So it's a cool metric along that. I don't, I don't know. Did you guys, did you guys build this from scratch? I I've never seen this anywhere else. Yeah. Alon's nodding. Yep. Yeah. So this was, this was a difficult 1 to get and we're still, we're still building it out. So we want to add more exchanges. Obviously we kind of started with the ones that we know have I guess more reputable numbers of kind of trading volume. So there's no spoofing, there's no watch trading something like that. So we kind of started off with four or five, but it's it's quite difficult to get this data and to to plot it you know with with a little bit of like historical, historical data as well. But yeah, we plan on really going hard in derivatives. There's a lot of really, really cool data there that you can also kind of within the terminal also look at other metrics and kind of combine them together and get like a a bigger picture of what's happening in Bitcoin, which was, you know, the initial idea of having a Bitcoin focused terminal. So it's kind of cool that when I was looking at these metrics, you'd have to go to, you know? 10/10/15 different sites and kind of have one of those, you know, old school, you know, setups to just kind of get a picture of what's going on. So yeah, it's kind of cool that you can see this here with mining with network, with all this other kind of cool data that we show. Yeah it's awesome that you pulled this all together here and and and you're right I think that derivatives is is sort of it's the the tail that often wags the dog in in Bitcoin and I think you know Dylan Leclair who's on ramp advisors often putting the spotlight on derivatives and how that is is the explanation many times for when a certain when a sudden price movement happens it it can it can often be explained by changes in the derivative market and with this chart you can you know come check that and and see ah yeah it was derivatives making a you know that's responsible for the the recent drop or the recent pump whatever it is and I'm just really cool chart here. And it's got me wondering, Elan, do you think getting people access to this data in a more consolidated form will lead to a more, I don't want to say efficient market, but better actions within the market. You have better equipped individuals with better data making better decisions at the end of the day. I think so. I think I think what happened in 2020 and 2021, there was a lot of kind of VC plays into the analytics space in crypto. And what you ended up seeing was a lot of these, you know, massively overvalued companies that were just throwing massive Nets over crypto data and spending so much time researching NFTS and Luna and Solana and things that kind of are all noisy, that are all going to trend to zero against Bitcoin, that's for sure. And I think the market, you know, like someone enters the market and just it's very hard to delineate, takes a little bit of research to understand that there's Bitcoin and then there's a crypto industry which is 2 very separate things. So I think to have a product that's Bitcoin focused and it's gonna continually have a team dedicated focused on Bitcoin only metrics. I think this is kind of where smart money is going to end up filtering through and we kind of like we don't know what's gonna happen in the next hype cycle. I'm sure the crypto VCs and the insiders will create some NFT like hype that's going to bring the next cohort of users in, but I think. After that hype dies down, which it has this time, and in the 2017 era with IC O's, they're going to come back and see that Bitcoin all this time has been just moving up and to the right, and I have to understand why. Yeah, can we actually unpack that a little more on the, like, social aspect because we talked about this last week with the intermediary advisory firm for pensions that he felt very comfortable in coming out because he ultimately had his, his boss. You know was there giving air cover and exposure and talking about it openly. And I I think back of like you know my personal journey and being, you know in 2017, eighteen and I'm sure we've all gone through this, whatever the time period where you you're going on the rabbit hole and the price is also going down and you're just like am I dumb? Does not make sense and that's where like the pods and a lot of this information comes in. But your point along you referenced smart money coming in and you've created social aspects of this whether it's incorporating you know your background the individual you know allocator enthusiasts background their Twitter handle things about them, the ability to chat with other folks inside the terminal research to help add more qualitative reports and quantitative along with the data. Can you speak some of the speak to the vision around that we we? For the listeners, we're gonna incorporate an onboarding emails, maybe a few to help and share this so you don't just get thrown directly into the mix. We did it at this launch, but maybe along can walk through some of the things that we will help in educating when you sign up so you can get the best use of it from the data, but then also to interact with other folks in the industry if you want to, you don't have to, but I think that this could be a very valuable tool for that as well. Yeah, exactly. And that kind of plays on what you're talking about smart money is that I think that? The social aspect is very interesting because if you were to have just the static site kind of showing charts that update regularly, well you kind of want to know what's happening and what the community says about them. So then you know, the natural next step is to maybe go to Reddit or to go to some forums or to go to Twitter. But then you don't know who to follow. You don't know whether they're reputable. You know they're you go to YouTube and I think the YouTube Bitcoin slash crypto communities as a whole generally is, is, is. There's really not much to learn. There's maybe like a few like BTC sessions that actually creates amazing content, but it's very hard to get to that. So the idea was like, so this is a terminal, we should build a social layer on top of this as well. So we want users to talk about the metrics. So each metric there's a small little chat icon there and users are able to chat about the metric. So they can also while they're looking at these charts updating, there's kind of a feed going on from the community of just gathering sentiment about what they're looking at. Maybe something that you wouldn't have known or it would have taken you hours into, you know going through Twitter threads just to find a specific information about that certain metric, network difficulty or hash rate or nodes or something like that. So, so I think we we built the terminal with that in mind where we wanted this Bloomberg Terminal esque experience. So we do have like a research tab, which takes research from a lot of a lot of like very reputable research groups and it consolidates them, so you can kind of pick and choose which one you want to read. It updates I think every 30 minutes as new ones come in. We also have a News tab, so you're able to search through news and see. As it's coming and you're also able to chat there with the community as well and you have profiles, so you're able to, I think. I think the bigger vision there is like if you're familiar with Seeking Alpha, you're able to like write an article and go through a paywall to write that article. So the idea was you have a profile and let's say a Lynn Alden comes in, or a Will Clemente or a Dylan and they want to write an article. We could put a small paywall behind, maybe like a lightning invoice. And then everyone within the terminal can pay that lightning invoice and then get direct access to that article. And all of it is kind of just creating this stickiness and to be synonymous with Bitcoin data. So this is kind of like, I guess the way I like to see it is Bitcoin's front end to its massive back end network. It's so cool. I was just looking at it and there's already people talking on the news articles about this is awesome. And then? Yeah, you could just see how that kind of grows with I lost my train of thought. But there was also like video I I could see a world where to. To your point, like YouTube, it's a it's accessible, it's it's a mess for people to find the the signal. Except for the show. Well, of course, but to to be able to like aggregate the best content from like the video, because I think a lot of individuals consume the media. You know podcast via this format and to be able to go into the terminal and just see like the thumbnails from the most relevant or the things you're following and just have an aggregator, not have to be sleuthing all over the Internet trying to just dodging bullets on what is noise and crap cuz that happens a lot. I've talked to a lot of potential clients or people come through and they're just like looking at YouTube. Just like especially in a bull market. It's different in a bear cuz you have more time, there's less people out there, but in a bull you're just getting thrown. You know, moon Safe Moon. Or, you know, Dave Portnoys out there chilling whatever he is. I just couldn't imagine a smart money investor sitting on a terminal and just getting all this noise thrown into their face and completely missing like the the, the huge revolution that's happening just with all these, all these like the noise happening above it. And I guess we kind of see that with the YouTube community you have like the bit, the bit boys I guess. And and people like that and it's just terrible that like when someone enters this community and there's an actual idea and problem that's being solved with Bitcoin and there's a lot, a lot of deep knowledge that can be that can be kind of sourced from that. You get kind of, you know, the grifter community and stuff like that. So I think having a Bitcoin only focused product for smart money is, I guess kind of like the natural progression of where Bitcoin goes. And. Again, a lot of what you've built is incredibly impressive and obviously we're using the Bloomberg analogy a lot because in my opinion, it is like the perfect analog to what you're building. And that's something that Bloomberg shifting gears toward putting your founder hat on and actually producing a product and historically. In the Bitcoin industry, it's been hard to create a profitable business. But I think what you're building with New Hedge could be extremely profitable. People need the data, they need the social aspect, they need the signal, and then adding that social aspect where people can communicate. And that's one of the biggest drivers for the Bloomberg terminals, all these traders being able to talk to each other, to DM each other directly in the terminal. And so just having that functionality I can only imagine like the. Amount of high quality conversations that will go in with the data right there that you can just share, hey, this is what I'm seeing. This is what's happening in the market, like it's happening. And we actually closed a. It was like a small precede. This was back in February, March of this year. And it was actually very interesting because I kind of reached out to traditional VCs and then crypto VCs as well. And then you have the Bitcoin VCs. And obviously, Bitcoin VC's are hard to come by. There's maybe a handful of them that are that are actually allocating capital to, you know, like lightning companies and very cool things that are happening on Bitcoin. And then crypto VC's are plentiful, plentiful. And when when I came to them and show them this product and show them that there's kind of a gap here in the market that I've noticed that there's really no Bitcoin focus terminal. That's. Going to be helping the new cohort of Bitcoin users to kind of get this rich and deep information. They kind of said, okay, cool. But like, when's the token coming? Let's do a token grant. You're gonna decentralize this? And I was like, no, no, no. We're running like. Huge AWS servers we're we're not decentralizing that for for what purpose like the purpose we're we're presenting data that's that's what we want to do we're we're a data company and it was it was it was a little bit difficult to kind of come around to kind of show people who aren't in the Bitcoin space what the vision is because they all because of what we're talking about earlier they just kind of see the whole crypto is this massive altogether same thing Bitcoin old now we have new you know why are you doing the old. But fortunately I was you know lucky enough to find some some great investors that did believe in the project and and I think it's being validated. I think that like the feedback that you have gotten in the one day since launch of the honor and terminal has been insanely positive and and I think that that's kind of like a validation that that something like this needs to exist. And that's not to say that there isn't amazing places that are also showing Bitcoin data, but you you really need a dedicated team to to really build it out because. Bitcoin, I think, is the market. Everything else is just kind of like it's an industry made to profit. Bitcoin is, you know, the new financial system. Yeah, absolutely. There's there's chaos out there. There's so much noise and what you have done is created a little walled garden of curated Bitcoin only content where it's like this is the place where people can really learn and get high signal Bitcoin only focus and then you know even even socialize with other people who are on the same journey or maybe have you know already established themselves in the in the Bitcoin community. That is like that is what's necessary when there's when there's so much noise out there. You need a curated walled garden that you know is is being lovingly curated really like the. You have to have somebody managing that in order and and and letting people come into their environment rather than being like exposed to all the the snake oil salesman on YouTube or because the YouTube algorithm incentivizes whoever can you know shout the loudest and create the most drama like that gets the most eyeballs. And that is not a a good barometer for signal. You know, that's a good barometer for controversy and the Bloomberg Terminal approach is to provide actual signal underneath noise and that's that's the like the fundamental difference of what you guys have done and commend you for it. Yeah, you'll know, New Edges officially made it when there's a bunch of Twitter accounts. Just just take the tape headlines from New Edge and tweet it out. Yeah, Walter Bloomberg. New hedge, huh? Yeah. Not to. Not to get too sentimental, but like, This is why we're going to ultimately win, because really, like, if you think about it, Alon, he said. Bitcoin only, this is what we're going to do. The market is here, but we know where the pucks going. So it takes people to take a chance. That's entrepreneurship. But then ultimately you need distribution. You need to get it out and independent of like there was two sides to making this happen because when I approached Alon, he could have said no. We're focused on other things, but on the same side, even if he would have said no, just personally. And I think you guys know me well enough. And just like this idea between Marty and what you've developed on the content and media side, it's like it would have been the right thing to do to get this out and distribute it to the market because it's just a better tool and it's what they've needed. And so as we think about that and like grow different products and services to the point that, you know, maybe a crypto VC doesn't see it or get it. There's enough of us out there now that want to see like success and be able to make the introductions and to facilitate you know, incorporating different products and services into other businesses that you don't find that in other industries or another you know, way that people are building. It's more of like a 0 sum game. So it's just it's exciting to be able to like partner with the lawn on this. And I think that this is just the beginning. We're going to have a lot of interesting things that are going to come about, and I think the lawn is probably going to, more than likely not just because of this show, but other things that we can support each other with. Get more exposure for this which ultimately helps Bitcoin when at the end because we're talking about smart money. Like this whole game's about trust. And the idea is a lot of people don't know what's happening. So they're looking for trusted individuals to support them in saying okay, this is where you start your journey. But then if they come in, and I remember this very distinctly when we, you know, had Unchained people came in and it was almost like a I would, I would say. Very boldly. And it might even been arrogant, but I really believe that. I still believe it's like you found your end point here on your crypto digital asset Bitcoin journey. If you choose to like, let it be that that's up to you. But we can provide all the signal, like all the signal on education, custody, don't go to block FI, you know all those things. And so I think of like what we're ultimately that extends to what honor I's doing, that also extends to this terminal in the sense of, like, if you're coming to the terminal because you believe there's something here, there's some trust being developed, then when you just see only Bitcoin, you only see only Bitcoin research. You may not fully be bought in, it's only Bitcoin. But you're at least willing to like, extend that, like leap in your mind versus going somewhere else and seeing all these things. And you just start off on the wrong basis, which I think is ultimately what's rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. And where we've seen the past 15 years be a big problem is that like it's just so much noise and all the VC capital and all the things aren't incentivized to let somebody do just anchored to this one asset. And so it's just kind of like pushed everybody in a like moving backwards. And so anyway, just a long winded way of saying like I think it's very cool and commendable along to build Bitcoin only even though when people are saying you know hey, when's the token, when's this and then have that kind of like visibility is like if you build it they will come and and I think they're gonna start coming. I think so as well, yeah. I actually turned down quite a bit of V C's like, especially ones that are here in Israel. There's quite a bit of, I guess, crypto companies being built here. And one was actually interested in the vision but said like, look, we need a token grant. And I was like, well, that's completely, first of all, almost morally unethical, you know, because, you know, essentially we're just raising, you know, unregistered security and dumping it just to, you know, just for you guys to get quick money. So like that's that's not. I would never tie myself to something like that like this. This is a, there's an ideology I think behind building a product like this. Like you really need to have someone who knows Bitcoin well and believes in that fundamental up and to the right. This is what's gonna bring people in and there has to be a reason for it to build a terminal like this. But yeah, let's get sentimental. I mean, thank you. For building it, #1 but #2, again, going back to just like the entrepreneur entrepreneurship aspect of it, like you described it earlier in the show, I think what's really beautiful about this product too is that you just saw that your users, a bit raw, were interested in these charts and you saw the signal there. You're a savvy entrepreneur who said, all right, there's something here, let's go build around this. And it materialized in this terminal which. As we've been describing is extremely robust, invaluable for for the industry and that's the data is incredible, but it wouldn't be there without you as an individual and your cofounder being sort of widely entrepreneurs were able to see the signal and the products that people actually wanted and needed. Exactly. And I think, I think because we're Bitcoin driven, I think we could pull up maybe like another metric just to kind of show. People may be something they haven't seen before because when we were building it, we didn't see it before. It's the difficulty estimator. And actually what's really, really interesting is that I actually know quite a bit of minors that actually look at this religiously. So foundry, riot, marathon, a lot of solo minors as well. So this this metric is actually trying it's a forward prediction. So we don't actually know what the difficulty will be at the end of the mining epoch, but what you're looking at here. So those those little blocks that you see there that that visualization, that's 2016 blocks, that's the mining difficulty epoch. So every 2016 blocks there's a there's a retarget calculation being made and and we just kind of wanted to represent that and so. So what you're seeing right now is actually we're we're very early on in this epoch. So each one will take around 2 weeks. That's at an average of 10 minutes per block. And what you can actually see here a little bit above is actually the ranges that we're calculating. So we're actually trying to see what's the current pace, the previous difficulty, the current difficulty and then the next difficulty, which gives kind of like a low end and then a high end. And then we're actually trying to calculate what the difficulty will be. Early on, it's very hard to do. I think around the first block you'll get like right when the difficulty retargets and then you you get into the next block, you'll see ranges from like you know -20% to plus 50%. But as you start getting further down into that, the lower end of those 2016 blocks, it becomes very, very, very accurate. And a lot of people use that. And this actually is. Really interesting because the last two adjustments were positive ones and I think that actually ties into another bullish all time high indicator if we could pull it up, which is actually network difficulty. So what you're actually seeing is that, yeah, exactly right. So it's the same thing that we kind of saw with hash rate as you know, the prices overlaid here, prices down 5060%, network difficulties on on the same rip that hash rate is. So minors are doubling down. So kind of what we're talking about the beginning of the podcast. Once you kind of start digging into actually what's happening under the surface, under the hood, everything is, everything's pointing towards bullish. So that's kind of like another kind of cool metric that we built that a lot of people haven't seen before. It's a really popular kind of tool that we have. And you can easily see this being a primitive, I mean one of the big themes in the mining industry as that hash rate. It goes parabolic and the profit margins on an individual operation get thinner and thinner. The whole idea of hash rate forwards contracts, hash rate derivatives more broadly becomes a sticking point, something that's probably going to need to come to market so that these miners can hedge their risk and having. A difficulty calculator like this, I could see being a primitive for creating those products where you want a very accurate depiction of what difficulty's gonna be at the end of an epoch. And then you can use that to price these derivatives contracts in certain ways, yeah. Exactly right. Yeah. That's such a cool piece of math, the difficulty estimator, so correct me if I'm wrong here. So you're taking the sample size of how many blocks we've seen in this epoch. And the the times to mine all of those and that's the sample set. You know that you're extrapolating okay. If we continue at the that average block time then then we're going to need to difficulty adjust by X percent, right. And then as that sample size grows and gets closer to the end, you know that the probability that you're within those air bars, like in the air bars, that's so cool. Yeah, yeah, that I didn't know anybody had done that. That's awesome that you guys built that. Yeah, I actually spoke to the the, I think the CTO of men pulled out space and they actually added a difficulty estimator as well. And we were talking about it over Telegram and he said that he actually took the inspiration from our difficulty estimator. So they show kind of like just a percentage of like where they think it's it's either going to go up or go down by what percentage. And what we actually do is show the visualization and the ranges and what's really cool. Is that Bitcoin talk? There's actually quite a vibrant mining community. They're still talking on Bitcoin Talk about about obviously solo mining and and mining pools and stuff like that. And they they they use this tool religiously. That's so cool. So what's the blinking red block? You know that you've got two blinking ones on the on the chart. Yeah. So if you go down a little bit further right after that 2016 block, yeah, exactly. So if you wanna zoom in there so it's kind of just showing if this block is being mined and expected or unexpected based on previous pace and current pace so. So right now it looks like the next the next block after the one, the one that's currently blinking, is the one that's currently being mined. So if you actually hover over it, we actually link to mempool dot space, so you can actually hover over it. That's the that's the block height, and if you click on it, it'll actually take you to mempool dot space and you can actually see what's going on. I'm having one of those moments where I think I might be about to learn something that I didn't know about Bitcoin. What is an expected Bitcoin block? So, so when you have a difficulty and then you're trying to target that kind of that average 10 minute based on that we kind of know if if that's, if that's going to be the current difficulty, we know if there's going to be an expected block at this timestamp, right. So, so we know if pace, if if the pace is up or down, we know if it's expected or unexpected and that it and that's kind of represents the it's a visualization. Just for us to make the assumption if the difficulty will be retargeted positively or negatively. Okay, I see. So you're just you're taking the extrapolation of the current pace and saying when that's gonna be expected? Exactly. Gotcha. Yeah. There's so much to build the data, like going back to the hash rate derivatives to even get to that financial instrument you need. Accurate data underlying that. And so when you talk about the order of operations and things that need to be built out in this industry, I think new hedge what you guys are building is on the front end of that order of operations. You need good data and good metrics to make good decisions from a financial perspective. Yeah, that's that's the thesis. So I'm I'm happy that we kind of ran with it and I think like the partnership that we did with on ramp just just validated it that like there is a need for this. People do want to see this and smart money. Like we're currently in a bear market right now and smart money is making its way to terminals like this and trying to trying to filter out, like we said, all that, all that noise and find the signal. So it's yeah, cool, go. For it, Michael, I was gonna say I knew, Alon, you mentioned when you launched the, you know, the traffic and just seeing, you know, incredible people coming through and similar on this side, it's like they're out there. We have them on the pod, we're talking them behind the scenes, they're using terminals like this. Everybody's looking. It's just just a matter of time. So it's just very cool. Yeah, I just found another thing I didn't know was in here. Logan, if you want to pull up the in the adoption category, there's a legality map which I've never seen before and that's another awesome. Lens for thinking about Bitcoin on like a on an international scale and and this this more than any other view I've seen before hammers home the like the international game theory of Bitcoin adoption So Alan, you wanna walk us through what what we're seeing on this chart? Yeah. So, so basically what we've done is when I was conceptualizing this, there was a lot of, a lot of data just from a lot of different places to kind of. Look at like regulation in different countries. So we we initially started creating a script that would go through like government websites find find the word Bitcoin or crypto and kind of you know pull that data to see you know whether trading was illegal or mining was illegal or kind of what what you know what the, what the regulatory landscape looked like. So, so this we kind of built. I think it was right after Kelly made. Bitcoin legal tender in El Salvador which is that little, that little orange dot over there, the other one in the middle that's the Central African Republic. But I've been notified that they have since not gone back on the on the legal tender laws of Bitcoin. So, so that and that obviously needs to be updated. But if you scroll a little bit down what we wanted people to do and we're still building this out is for people to kind of come in and search their country and to kind of get a very small. Blurb of just the regulatory landscape. So and then that obviously correlates to the just kind of like the visual representation that we have on the map. That's so cool, yeah. And this will be a shifting landscape in the coming decade. But it does help clarify how like you know you can have you can have China ban Bitcoin mining. You can you, they can ban Bitcoin entirely, but it's just one country on, you know, on the scene. And that so long as there are green and hopefully orange pockets somewhere on this map, then then Bitcoin. Bitcoin continues in in legal, you know, out in the open. And even if this map was entirely red, Bitcoin would continue as it has in China, which is. You know, under the radar with Tor nodes and and so on. But I think it's a great, this is a great way to check the I don't know, you always hear like when the Bitcoin mining ban happened in China, the the headlines were all about how China was banning Bitcoin. And you know every other country is going to follow suit soon. And you know, you come look at this and see, Nope, there's a lot of clarity actually, that Bitcoin is allowed most places. Yeah, and it's I'm cross referencing this map with the the node map right now in Algeria, the only red country in Africa right now, even though it's illegal, there are people still running nodes in Algeria, and that's just reachable nodes and we don't know how many Tor nodes are in Algeria as well. And that speaks to antifragility, which is amazing to see. Yeah, yeah, that's a cool map. I'm glad you guys built that. Well, I mean we've touched on obviously the on ramp new hedge partnership integration and before we hit record, Michael was singing your praises for how quickly this integration came together, I think in a little more or less than a month and I guess we could jump into speaking too. Like how you plan on integrating this across the industry, what individuals who would like this type of terminal on their sites or for their products, how they can engage with new edge to integrate it into their stacks? Yeah, exactly. So initially, because I found that there was this gap which there's no really deep rich Bitcoin analytics, I kind of knew that that data would. Eventually be needed to be seen by people who are running other terminals whether those are crypto terminals or or you know traditional finance terminals like like Bloomberg. Essentially we just thought you know if we can hunker down and create amazing metrics and and people want to see those, you know we'd love to give that out in in API forms to to all these places so that kind of more people get to see these Bitcoin metrics. And I think what's interesting is that like with with Onram. You know you have your client base that are custoding Bitcoin and going down the kind of the rabbit hole with multi sig. And then what's interesting is that like well after that they've done that they kind of have a Peace of Mind, you know of their custody solution for Bitcoin and then what do they do? Well, eventually, you know, they're still interested in Bitcoin. They want to see what's happening. So then they have the terminal to kind of fall back in and it creates kind of stickiness. So I'd I'd love for our data to be used in different terminals in different sites. Just because I think it it contributes to the stickiness of Bitcoin. I I like like I was saying earlier I don't want to hit another analytic site to find something really cool and have a pop up of check out Salana Research. I I really would like you know like would love to reiterate the fact that like this is the signal like people are going to be looking for this and and if we can provide data for those people to eventually fall back on. And I think new hedges a success. Yeah, we, we talk about that a lot, Marty. Like in general like the Internet, it's kind of just descended into this like fragmented broken shell of what it used to be. If you think about like before, whether it was like news or sports, you could leave a tab open and then just like go and get every all the content you wanted from a particular area of the market, whether again news, sports, whatever it is. And so Elan's point, like we produce a lot of content research and to be able to incorporate that into the data component where you can go and and this is live now and you edge, there's some other research as well. But to be able to like access it all under one kind of whether it's a tab or within your browser, we think to Elan's main point, it's like there's stickiness but it's also utility that's baked into that because or maybe they're one of the same, but there's just there's utility there versus having to like go somewhere else. If we're reproducing that content, it just maps perfectly next to a lot of the quantitative data. One thought Elan, I don't know if you if if this has come up and it's probably like a bigger ask from what you guys are trying to do. But maybe it's not as like reports like to be able to. And I know there's like a functionality where you can create, you can click a button and and it likes or or hurts it or favors it. And I'm assuming there I think it moves it to like a main dashboard for the user. But to be able to like check off a few and it would have spit it out into like almost like APDF or a slide base. Because I think that's where a lot of the. I don't know if it's virality but I think of a lot of evangelists and it always just sailors my anchor point that read out a bunch of people's stuff and then went into a boardroom and said hey we're going to do this and they're like you're crazy. And he's like, well, he pulled out like laminated, you know, writings from the best writers at that time in 2020 and then said, well, here, read it over the weekend and they came back and they had to read it because he was their boss. And they, they were like, okay, you're not crazy. We're going to do this. And you can imagine a world where you can do that with with some of the terminal insights where you can pull, you know, relative things like this legality map when people are worried about countries banning it. You know, hash rate transactions, all the things that we know profitable days. And then be able to share that in something that is digestible from a boomer standpoint where they still love to like get that PDF in the e-mail and open it and put it on their iPad and read it Sunday morning over coffee. Have you thought anything thought about that at all? Yeah, of course. I think what we've seen with New Hedge is because there's a lot of users and they're clicking different things and they're viewing different things. You you have to kind of come together and do an amalgamation of like what what people are interested in and obviously that changes, that sentiment changes within the market. So I actually think that's like a that's a great idea because we know like as the having is coming, you know more metrics that are looking at having cycles or anything having to do with that for your cyclical cycle with Bitcoin that's going to be the forefront. So it'd be really cool to kind of condense that data, like you said, into a PDF or an e-mail newsletter and just be like, hey. Because we have all this Bitcoin focused data, this is what people are looking at and this is their sentiment. I think that's a spectacular idea. Awesome. Yeah, we go, I mean, we've been doing this for years. You go into a meeting with a large asset allocator and they come out and they have certain things they want. You have to build the decks and reports and emails and imagine just clicking a few buttons you're like here it is you can look at your terminal but sometimes you know it's it's a friction point to go through the sign up. Some people just want it like nicely condensed there. I think that could be that could be big and when we think about getting you know hundreds of billions if not trillions in you just imagine being able to just like make that signal even tighter and tighter just lets the let's it spread. I also think it creates like a base for a lot of a lot of kind of untested Bitcoin projects to build on top of it. So for instance like integrating Gnoster. Or doing lightning invoice payments to talk between users. I think like having a terminal like this is kind of like a like the central meeting point of like, you know, this is where we talk about Bitcoin. This is where we get to see what's happening with Bitcoin as well. It also creates this like you're not gonna get a, you know, let's say like a like a Nanson, which they're also a data provider, but they're raised to kind of create an NST. Dashboard analytics and insights, like you're not gonna get them anywhere near interested in what's happening with Lightning or what's happening with Gnoster or kind of where the Bitcoin community is moving as a whole. So I think that creating that kind of central meeting point and breeding ground, like we can be the base for a lot of these Bitcoin projects to build on top of and to see how Bitcoin users interact with them, I think that'd be also really cool. Yeah. I was going to say going back to the Bloomberg analogy, I mean you have the opportunity here. If we believe that we're going to transition to a Bitcoin standard in the world of finance will be operating via products and services that anchor into the Bitcoin network. Like, you can build the new Bitcoin, the Bloomberg Terminal, the Bitcoin terminal, and then integrate bitcoins, native properties, whether that's lightning payments, whatever it may be, to to actually modernize it instead of paying. Whatever it is. For Bloomberg, 20 grand a seat a month. Yeah, really. And I think the. Users of Onramp, Tyrone, they're gonna see a lot of cool things coming. Like, I haven't even talked with Michael or the rest of the team, but obviously we're still focused on creating like Bitcoin metrics that are hard to come by that you haven't seen before. So I think like in the next coming months. Like you're gonna see that in on ramp terminal. It's gonna be interesting to see like what those on RAMP users, how they interact with that and whether they can find correlations with other things. I think that's what kind of builds this kind of robust analytics platform. Is this like kind of like just to get kind of like a like a story behind what's happening? You just made me think of something really cool and I didn't know the use case and how I do is we talked about YouTube and content and they're both one of the same in the sense of like how do you surface what's the most valuable for the type of individual. It's all subjective but like we know we have a certain archetype that's using this or looking at this and imagine having like YouTube tab. But then based on you know where everybody's like oh value for value and doesn't make sense where just out of the goodness like this provided value whether it's a 2 hour pod that was explained in XY&Z and now you can start either by like you know tags, whether it's mining evaluation of Bitcoin and then you can just see where it starts to filter it's its own self-serving algorithm of the best pieces because people have actually saying that I found value in this, right. And then you go to those tabs and that's a very simple thing. You have a lightning wall that already tied into your terminal. You're just like there now when you log into the terminal you're just seeing the best content. Again, subjective, but the best content by somebody's actually producing proof like proof of work into like saying that it's the best content because they found it valuable could be really cool feedback loop from like content that we produce along with other things we bring in but also like the video stuff, which is the video. Again, I keep anchored because it's just so much noise out there, but imagine finding the best videos because videos are powerful. Like you watch it for an hour and you can learn a whole lifetime of like information that you didn't you couldn't have done or read faster in an hour and then you just get it to the top on specific topics. Like I think that it's crazy education feedback cycle for people coming in. I agree. And I think like most of the new users coming in, especially in the 2020 kind of like Bull Cycle was a lot of a lot of millennials and a lot of Gen. Z. And it's really hard to kind of put the Bitcoin standard or the sovereign individual in front of them and say, hey have fun over the weekend. You know, they're, you know, they're they're probably going to watch a piece of content. And and yeah, I think that's also a great idea. I think like there there's a lot of verticals that can happen with the terminal like this. And I just can't wait to see where it goes from here. That's awesome. Bullish. Bullish. Very bullish. What I mean you mentioned the having cycles, people looking at that data, but to wrap up like what else do you think people are gonna be looking at as we head into the end of the year into 2024? Yeah. So outside of the having we also we have a pretty accurate having countdown which is actually looking at kind of also the pace of blocks. So it's kind of not a hard coded date. We're actually, it's actually changing which is really cool. It was kind of cool to figure out like how you can predict when when the having cycle happens. Yeah, that's, that's it right there. So we're predicting it's happening April 24th. So there's a couple of other sites that kind of say March or maybe a little bit earlier in April. But I guess, I guess because we're recording this podcast now, I guess we'll know, we'll know in April 24th if we were right. But we also have a chart that's actually looking at the price performance since having which is another market chart. But I think, I think what people will be looking at is just the yeah. So this looks at the different kind of mining reward epochs and then the line on the very, on the very right there in red is an actual four year mark. So obviously we know that you know on average it'll it'll be four years, but it's not actually hard coded that it's going to be a four years that it's every 2010 blocks however fast or slow on average those are being mined. But this actually also shows kind of I I guess that that cyclical 4 year. Cycle nature that people look at and I think just in general just when you make kind of like price predictions based on based on historical data. I think just in general it's interesting to see that like you know this could be wrong and this could not predict what the next mining epoch reward will look will look like in terms of like the next four years. But everything that you kind of see in the terminal, you you kind of get the sense that everything in general is moving up and to the right. Which I think that's really cool, just to kind of see. Yeah, and with this particular chart too, it's really fascinating and I've never this is producing new information for me. If you look at it, pink as the first epoch, orange second, blue third, green 4th, which we're currently in, But over time it's gotten closer to that four year target. Yeah. Each epoch, which means. That would be. That would be because like in the first epoch, the. The amount of of the rate of change of Bitcoin mining hash rate was astronomical, right? So, so that would mean that like we were the average block time must have been like 6 minutes or something in that first epoch to to have it be looks like 2/3 of a four year period, right? Yeah, and then over time, as more hash rate comes on, it becomes harder to to make steps or. That's what I'm looking for to make like order of magnitude leaps and hash rate, which means they're gonna be trending closer to that 10 minute target and so right. But we would never expect it to actually ever be at a full four year era so long as hash rate is is on average increasing. Right, yes, yeah. But I think this chart is visualizing that. It's getting more efficient. We're getting closer and closer to that four year target over time. So it'll be interesting to look at this and. 20 years when there's four or five more lines on it, yeah. And we can see how close eg pockets to that red line, yeah? Very cool. The maturation of the entire network and the asset underneath, yeah, it's worth calling out that we worked with the lawn to create a a dashboard that's like on the front facing site. So if you don't want to log in and create an account or do anything, you can actually get access to what we thought were at least on this first version, the most interesting kind of like KPIs. But we'll over time based on feedback and maybe what's happening in the market will move them around and I'm sure Alon has some thoughts on things we can do with it as well. Definitely. I think also looking at the monthly transactions, one if you look at that throughout all time. And you, you know, kind of have in mind that there, you know, the prices dropped at 5060%. Then you look at just on chain transactions, monthly cumulative is just also up and to the right. And you'd have to understand like well why that's happening. And obviously this is without lightning, this is without lightning transactions. So this is base layer Bitcoin transactions. That's a really cool chart to look at as well. Nobody uses Bitcoin. It's just like. Yeah, nobody uses it. You know, it's funny. It reminds me of, you know, who do you wertheimer on Twitter. Of course he was. Yeah. So he, he's Israeli. I actually met him. Yeah, he's my neighbor. Yeah, he's down the street. But he actually got into kind of like a Twitter debate with Guy Swan, and they were talking about how, like Bitcoin isn't actually used in merchant kind of like merchant transactions. And then someone pulled up kind of like I think it was bit refill or bit pay kind of they they kind of had like a just a yearly breakdown of which crypto currencies were actually being used in merchant transactions. And you see number one it was Bitcoin and then number four it was lightning. So and then and then you kind of like look at that monthly transactions chart and you and you actually kind of see that like you know these are real transactions that are happening. That this isn't just kind of like, yeah. Zoom out to all Yeah, the Alls. Look at that, Yeah. There's the fundamentals right there. This is actually the most fascinating to me. We don't talk about it enough and it's, it is somewhat applicable like the cognitive dissonance with all the, you know, hundreds of billions of dollars getting allocated right now to crypto that when the market right now we've been in this like bear for whatever number of years. All of their charts look completely the opposite of this, like the the market when they launch the token or whatever they, you know, trading volumes and they do a bunch of stuff where you can actually it looks like there's a lot of activity, but then once you kind of get into these lulls, it goes the opposite way. And so I don't like these stories. I'm not sure what they're telling and how they go about. And it gets a little bit more complex when the market comes back because then you can play around. But anyway, the the point of that is like this is the fundamental that even at, you know, whatever, 60 plus percent down from all time highs, you still have this kind of like growth and utility and usage are the things that matter when you evaluate like crypto and then digital assets, you know, more general. Yeah. Fundamentals have never been better. You can see it in the data. Very bullish. You had chance in the data. Elan, before we wrap up here, where can anybody who's curious and excited about what you're building find out more? Get involved. Begin using the terminal, incorporating into their own businesses. Yeah, so they can definitely check out newhedge dot io and they can kind of have just a free version to kind of browse around and to see a lot of these, a lot of these charts in the wild. And then they can also sign up to kind of create dynamic alerts to create their profile to kind of just get like the just the feel of what a Bitcoin terminal is. And then I would obviously check out the onramp terminal external dashboard that we created. I think that that's kind of like you know, I'd love to create kind of like a Clark Moody as dashboard for onramp and to have that as kind of just a really cool with visualizations as well to kind of give a really big picture of what's happening. But yeah, I'm relatively. Quite. Also, like on Twitter, I'm not. I'm one of those shadowy super coders that Elizabeth Warren talked about. So I'm not, I'm not in the public space too much. But you know, hopefully I'll be kind of like sharing a lot of the kind of research and the charts that come out from us building a lot of these cool metrics on Twitter as well. And they are awesome. Yeah. So for people who have sat through us talking about charts and are curious. Where the hell these charts are? You can check themoutyourself@terminal.onrampbitcoin.com and you can see the. You can see the landing page there and the selected metrics. If you want to get access to all of them, just pop in your e-mail address and sign up and check out everything that Elan and New Hedge have built there. Yeah, sign up and create a profile. And then I think right now the market's quieter where we can respond. I know, Marty, your Dm's and probably Jesse's, Yours and Twitter are crazy, But I think this is going to serve as a really nice way to connect with the audience and folks interested in whether it's feedback on like the content, the research, the the charts via the terminal. Because it kind of puts a face to a name and a background. If you decide you want to incorporate that. We were even getting messages. So to the extent anybody wants to engage, sign up, create a profile and we're all on there. And I don't know if Marty's on there yet, but we'll make sure to get them on there, so. It'll be on there by the end of the day. Nice. Yeah, Marty, it's got all the charts you need for all of your other podcast chart needs. That, yeah, No. And I mean, I'm gonna spin up the TFTC white label as well. Like we need a dashboard. I'm just thinking like you mentioned, like set up. Alert messages like that's what we need for social is like set up alerts, like when this metric hits this point, like, boom, take a screenshot, tweet it out. Yeah, that's something you could do right now on on Terminal as well. I think what we've seen at New Head, there's a lot of people that difficulty estimator because the ranges are so kind of crazy. They kind of get a picture of like, OK, is this going up or is this going down. What we see is a lot of people actually send dynamic alerts to. OK, let me know if this drops by 2% By 1%. Or when it gets to a certain level and you can do that on ramp as well. So I think and you can do that with the last chart that we did right now as well monthly transactions, you wanna see if it goes above a certain percentage, below a certain value. I think that's also really cool, yeah. Yeah, we're gonna win. Thanks to individuals like Elan here building the tools necessary to get the good data in people's hands. Elan keep crushing it. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for thank. You for having me. This is really cool. Yeah, thank you for the on ramp terminal. I mean, Michael was sending me screenshots of the sign ups yesterday. It came in hot. That's all I'll say. Yeah, we don't know the number is, but it's from 1 to 21 million which is like also the best is the best answer when the best answer when someone asks you how much big one you have. Yeah, that's right. It's always not enough. 21 million wouldn't even be enough, but that's it. Yeah, that's all we got. We'll be back next week. Alon, have a good evening where you are. The sun went down behind you. Thank. You Thank you so much. This is how I spend my Thursday nights. This is amazing. Yeah. All right. We'll catch you guys later. See you guys next week.