Transcript+
Before we get into the episode, a quick reminder that the last trade is for informational and entertainment purposes only and nothing should be construed as investment or legal advice. Now for a word from on RAMP on RAMP is a Bitcoin asset management platform built on multi institution custody. We serve high net worth individuals, institutional investors and financial intermediaries with the best in class suite of products which include multi institution custody, a spot Bitcoin fund, Onram Wealth for Rias and private wealth services for high net worth individuals. Leveraging our partnership with Bit Go and other industry leaders, Onram's Multi Institution Custody is a first of its kind institutional grade vault requiring two of three institutions at any point in time to sign once a client's unique permissions have been met. Our multi institution vaults utilize cold storage, key signing and authentication at the direction of the client to maximize security for client assets. This pioneering approach to custody is the foundation of On Ramp's financial products which reduce counterparty risk associated with trusting a single institution. To learn more about how On Ramp can help you secure a new or existing Bitcoin position, please visit our website at on rampbitcoin.com, where you can schedule a consultation and connect directly with our team. What you're telling me is that music is about to stop, and we're going to be left holding the biggest bag of odorous excrement ever assembled in the history of Doctors 1974? 1987 92972. 1000 and whatever we want to call this. It's all just the same thing over and over. We can't help ourselves, I say when we sell. Hey, I say when we sell. Gentlemen, I'm sorry. We're five days late. It's my fault. It's on me. It's not. It's not on you. It was like there was a lot of travel last week A. Lot of travel. How was Vegas? I I heard this term once. It was What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas. I've only heard it once. Just once. I caught. I didn't tell Mitch or Alex this yet, but I caught Michael. I was going to Missouri. He was coming back from Vegas and the Austin airport. We ran into each other. Yeah, it. Was a handing off of the baton to go orange pill other people? Yeah, it it it was very cool to be honest. It was great to, you know, probably talk more about this, but it was awesome to meet Alex and Mitch in person along with a lot more of the BET Go team. You know the the orange coin the the the Bitcoin side there's some work that on ramp can help with some of these these firms. We had some late nights and we're able to you know kind of pull people help get their allocations outside of these alternative currencies into the you know to where they should go. And I think we did some work on Mitch. Mitch is you know in in in New York and he's hanging out with with these groups and we're talking about Texas and land and a lot of the the freedom that we have here and that was part of the the sell when I we landed. Hit you and Parker in the the airport was like, oh, guys are headed out to go spread some more orange, orange coin. Good. And then texted Mitch was like, yeah, you know when you land in Austin you just find some bitcoiners, they're heading off into the thing hand off and go go back home and you know that the the world's in good hands. He's like, wow, that that kind of helped with the the pitch. And there probably couldn't be a a more different type of conference. I went to Jefferson City, MO, a town of 30,000 people. For a small conference of 200 Missourians to Orange Pill the pensions in the state on Bitcoin, it was a great day, very focused on Bitcoin. That's the beauty of what we're doing here, right? We recognize that we have to meet people where they're at and they're everywhere. That's true. It was funny. Me and Michael, we're we're texting. I think it was was Monday or Tuesday morning just looking around the conference and we were just, I don't know probably 80,000 people were there. I don't know the real number, but it was it was tremendous and just looking around it was it was significant portion was trad fi and we're just you know saying we're we're just seeing a whole lot of people wear short Bitcoin here. So we got work to do. I mean, trad fi barons cover over the weekend, time to buy bonds. All the trad fi guys are like, hey, blood in the streets, we're buying bonds. We're aping in as the US government's about to print 1.37 trillion this fiscal year. It it is wild. I've never been, to be honest. I've been to a lot of conferences, you know, being in like traditional cells in my career and I've never seen the amount of kind of like just like wealth and money and people moving around in that conference. But that was part of it. It couldn't like help but look around like all these people are very short Bitcoin. And also there wasn't like a big. I know Mitch can speak more to this because he's attended previous ones, but there was a crypto presence. It was interesting. I went to go listen to a David Marcus talk, which happened to like coincide when they launched this new UMA protocol or whatever it is. And I thought there were, there was a group sitting there waiting for him. I thought it was waiting for him. But it was like digital wallets that Google and, like some other, you know, large conglomerates were setting up across the globe. Or whatever they're digitally doing in crypto. And then they all got up and laughed when Marcus came to talk. And so it's just like, you know, we really are early. Like, nobody even cares about this whole Bitcoin or Lightning thing. Yeah, you send a picture. I was like Oh yeah, there's nobody in there. The like money 2020 in general payments is a is a significant significant portion of of the attendees and you know from a crypto perspective you know lightning you know we're we're we are starting to mature there. But you know compared to the the volumes that you know you're doing in stables you know we we are we are certainly lagging you know from that perspective. So we've got work to do, but at the same time I I saw you know, very, very, very little, you know, lightning presence in MI 2020. Alex, what's your perspective going to Vegas from the UK? You know, it's interesting. One, it takes a special kind of person to build a city of that size in the middle of a desert. That's my UK take on that whole thing now, just like comparing the conversations that we were having at our joint launch party compared to trying to get into conversations on the floor of the conference. There's a lot of work to do, right? People still asking, oh, like, hey, what's coin cover? OK, cool, get that. Can you tell me a little bit more about crypto? OK like, where does Bitcoin come from? How do I know it's backed by anything? How do I use it? Where do I store it? Like that is the level of understanding where a lot of these very senior, very accomplished treadfly people are. And like there's a big gap in educating them. To get them to the point at which they're able to even, you know, understand, OK, some some very simple concepts around what sound money is and what it could be in the next 5-10, fifteen years, right. So there's a huge, huge gap, which is exciting because it means that we've got a lot of work to do, but sometimes you realise that this really is 15 years in still just scratching the surface of what it's going to be. And that was really my take away. Was that, OK, cool, I came away with, you know, I had a different job that wasn't just hanging out with you guys all week. I came away with zero leads and a big understanding like, Oh my God, there's there's a lot still to be done here. We're still early and you mentioned it 15 years in it's October 31st, 2023 white paper was. Was emailed out October 31st, 2815. Years. Nice. Number divisible by 5 it's it's pretty crazy to think. It's crazy to think I've been in it for 10 years now at this point. That is crazy. That's a lot of, it's a lot of time. A lot of like, it's it. Yeah. I can't imagine what it's like. I would think like, let's say half that time for myself and you start seeing patterns recognized. It's almost like you know. Kind of an edge, especially in like the business sense because you get to see what's what's working, what, what hasn't worked. But yeah, for 10 years. I can't imagine what it's like to be able to see the same And then also the Groundhog's Day or the, you know, alternative the what is it? The eternal September of, like every, you know, couple years you've seen this insane kind of like. Mining death spiral. It's not backed by anything and you're just gonna, you're just gonna live this for the next. It's like a curse for the next 15 years, Marty. What Alex just described is the eternal September. It's like, we're so in it. We're like, yeah, this thing's gonna change the world. And you go up to somebody, they're like, what? What do you what is this thing? They're not ready. They're not ready to understand, right? Did you, did you say it was emailed out? So that's a part of the story. I don't know who who received those emails. The. The cypherpunk mailing list, I believe. Or no, It's the P to P The P to P mailing list it's. Like an E Cash. Like an E Cash right I. Think it was an E cash thread? Maybe on the P to P mailing list. We can be specific here. I'll go to the Nakamoto Institute. Or actually, Logan, you look it up. Nakamoto Institute. Satoshi Email's first one. But yeah, it is crazy thinking, Alex, he said. What's this gonna be like, 5-10, fifteen years out before we even? Project out into the future, I guess. Since we're sitting here on White Paper Day, let's reflect 1st 15 years. Even though people in Vegas don't know what this is, it is pretty crazy how far this has come from an idea on an obscure mailing list to a software implementation a few months later to a $600 billion asset class within 15 years. Yeah, so that top one. Yeah, yeah. The Cryptography mailing list I think reflecting on the last 15 years and sort of where we are at today. I think the the two pretty breathtaking amazing things to me is #1 the fact that you know, obviously we're we're on the cusp of ETF approval and asking to have momentum going there. But #2, you know, I think we've always dreamed of Bitcoin being that safe haven asset that flights of safety. And you had Larry Fink on on CNBC doing the marketing for us and telling that. But I think, yeah, in watching Bitcoin price action when things go wrong, you know Marty, you've been doing this for 10 years generally, you know we the correlation reaches one and you know Bitcoin, you look at crash in in 2020 and you know we we tend to be correlated to the stock market in equities when you know when things do happen. But I think the amazing thing for me was when Silicon Valley Bank went down, I think we really had the moment where Bitcoin was the flight to safety and we actually were what we you know, it proved out to be what what we had always hoped for. And I think we're seeing some of that with the movements that are going on right now compared to what's happening in the bond market. This is what I'm you know obviously with you got the ETF and have been coming up but Bitcoin performing as that digital gold as that flight to safety as that non sovereign money, you know actually taking place with supply demand in in the marketplace. That's the beautiful thing that I'm seeing 15 years in and what I couldn't be more excited about. Yeah, I actually wrote about this last night, 2023, the year the Great Bitcoin Decoupling. This is a chart that exemplifies exactly what you just described, Mitch, which is the divergent between Bitcoin performance and these are the big banks and Logan. If you Scroll down, you'll see the regional banks. Which are faring much worse. And that's, I mean, I sort of played coy in the newsletters like, well, you know, only thing we know about Bitcoin's outperformance this year is that there's been more buyers than sellers. What's actually driving that imbalance in in supply and demand? Who knows. But if one were, yeah, to put out a reason why Bitcoin's to succeed, it's exactly because of the banking crisis and. Considering what the bank's balance sheets look like with a bunch of toxic assets, also known as Treasury bonds, as as their liquid reserves, it's it's makes sense that Bitcoin would outperform It's up 107% this year, while most banks are down more than 20%. The. BDS it's like these little inklings are slowly getting into people. The traders minds of I got a note from a mutual friend. Very tenured Wall Street individual worked for one of the largest hedge funds in his his note was the more it goes up when other stuff is going down, the more it goes up. It's the most reflexive asset I've ever seen because this is his first real cycle seeing kind of like not only the market but also just seeing the alternative to like what's happened in traditional space and it's just getting. Started. Yeah, just the beginning 15 years in and. What we're here to talk about today. I mean, Mitch was on the last episode, wasn't last week. I almost said last week, but we missed last week. Sorry everybody. No this is last week. We're gonna we're just we're it's it's a little extended. We saved it for White Paper day. There's a lot of travel people flying all over the country orange peeling. So this is part of last. Week, OK, I like that. Excuse we'll use that. But we've got Alex, as you may have picked up from coin cover on the show as well on ramp Coin cover bit go. Are working together to bring this multi institution multi sig custodial solution to the market. We got Mitch's story on the last episode, but Alex, let's learn more about Coin Cover, what you guys do, and why this partnership between On Ramp, Coin Cover and Bitco made sense for you guys. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me on. Yeah, and an absolute pleasure to get to spend some time with both on ramp and bit go last week in Vegas as we launched this partnership. I think you know a good place to start is really in outlining what Coin cover is, how we communicate, what we do. We see ourselves as a risk mitigation company and really we've built a core business offer offering around. Mitigating the risks around losing access to private keys, I think, you know, it's it's the stat that everyone likes to spout off that 20% of Bitcoin is last forever. Great for everyone else, you know, Decreases the supply. A very core part of our mission here at Coincover is making all crypto. I won't say just Bitcoin. All cryptocurrencies safe to use and hold for everyone. And when you think about what that means, right, We were looking ahead doing some crystal ball, gazing 5/10/15 years. If we really want to see mass adoption of Bitcoin and other currencies, let's talk about Bitcoin. That risk around losing access to a private key, losing access to your Bitcoin must be solved, must be abstracted away in the same way that. Money, Fiat money that a lot of the problems around losing access to that have been solved. We must do the same thing for Bitcoin. And so really when you think about Coincover that's what drives us. There are other bits of tech that we build and we deploy to keep assets like Bitcoin safe And so when we were approached by on ramp to take part in this multi how, what are we describing as multi institution custody right? Yeah, we absolutely jumped. We jumped at the opportunity for a number of reasons, right? One, we see it as absolutely driving the state of custody forwards. We like and we can go into that in a minute, right? I think there are. There's a whole wealth of reasons why we wanted to get involved in it. But then on the other side, we've been partnered with Bitco for a good kind of four or five years now, offering all sorts of services through through to their clients, but again primarily offering hot key recovery, right. So on the hot wallets, when you sign up with Bitco and you want to use their hot wallets, you have to set up some way to back up this wallet so that if in any scenario if you lose key material, the very small chance that Bitco goes down for whatever reason. There is a way to then go and sign recovery transactions to get your assets back. And a very common option on that platform is to use Coincover. Toss that away to a trusted third party, abstract away the risk, abstract away the complexity around you having to look after these keys and then if anything goes wrong, you can give them a buzz and they'll help you get your assets back. We've been doing that for kind of, yeah, 5-6 years. I hear stories from our founders, Adam Smith and. David Genchewski of sitting in a meeting room in the big offices in Palo Alto with Mike Belchi kind of hashing it all out over the weekend and they definitely tell their stories with a kind of rose tinted glasses glory days look in their eyes, but it's amazing to see whether it's come and the kind of opportunities that have come out of that. Now working with on ramp to to really try things forward. What I will say is there's a lot of similarities. Around how we operated with Bit Go for a long time now looking after those wallets, we should dive into those right The the the narrative in the space has been focused on MPC for so long, it's refreshing to see the strength of multi sig. Sort of coming back to the fore that's sort of a a false narrative around it being a weaker set up. And so yeah, being able to leverage the expertise that we've built with bit go now deploy that through on ramp is is very exciting. Let's dive into that. The differences between MPC, multi party computation and multi sig. I think we may have done it once or twice in the past on this show, but it's always important to refresh because MPC has dominated. In a market of third party custody of crypto assets more broadly, and I think mentioning crypto assets is important because that's probably why MPC has dominated, because it's a sort of 1 solution for all these assets where multi sig is very particular to Bitcoin and so people would argue that. Just because MPC can do custody for all these different crypto assets, Bitcoin's sort of just been bucketed into that as well, and many would argue that it's a suboptimal solution for custody, Bitcoin specifically. And Marty to to sort of dive into that a bit. I I think we're where we got lost on sort of MPC superiority is is in the altcoin space. Bitco actually does multi sig for for all coins and even by all kinds of I'm I'm actually saying anything you non UTXO based. So there are some altcoins you've got like coin Bitcoin Cash that are UTXO based, do have native multi sig support. We previously actually did you know and still have a multi sig implementation for for the all coins. It's smart contract based. But what you what you have in that multi sig setup is it's expensive to do and that's when you know the MPC, you know companies are you know declaring victory because it's it's a costly transaction to to go use multi sig for for those wall for those transactions on the Bitcoin or UTXO side. Multi sig has always been superior. You've got you know transparency on chain for for who's signing the transaction. You know all three of those keys are are held on chain and you know true distribution of you know each of those keys takes place and you know none of them have to come together to go send that transaction. You can go sign from your own location and once the chain has both signatures, you're good to go and can broadcast a transaction. Yeah, I think that the two big ones, we're working on some real good material because I think like ultimately to help educate on this and Mitch and I were chatting about it in Vegas because it came up and is. Sometimes it'll get confused with MPC and multi sig because folks that use MPC will think about the sharding of keys and hear about how they can have multiple, you know, keys sharded that need to come together. But that's that's basically providing it's still a single key it has it's very different than again multiple signatures which we're going to have a basis of multiple private keys. But the two things that come to mind to make it like super simple is interoperability. And then auditability. So to Mitch's point, multi sig is part of scripting language that's native to the Bitcoin protocol. And it's my understanding that it goes back to cryptography decades previously, even Bitcoin. So it's it's been battle tested, it's hard and it's where Bicco leverages it for Bitcoin. And also if you think about like a coin base will leverage multi sig for their cold storage custody of Bitcoin while they'll leverage MPC and their proprietary instance of it for all coins. And then the interoperability, while it hasn't been as important, I think that if we can start to look at the landscape and we'll probably talk about this today of like why multi institution makes sense and why other products around you know effectively multi institution with just distribution of keys makes sense as you can't do that inherently with MPC because it's proprietary to the instance that's being leveraged for that institution. We're multi sig. If us three on a call wanted to set up a three of three or or three or four or whatever it might be, whether it's a institution, multiple institutions, multiple countries, it allows for that flexibility that doesn't exist in MPC. And so when you start thinking about just trying to build more resilient financial products, you're inherently going to be based on a closed network and a good example of this and not to like you know, throw shade at them, but it's just it is a product that exists. I'm sorry, Copper's loop network which is like a trading settlement layer, but it's within they, they have other parties that participate in it. But at the end of the day it's within their closed source ecosystem. It's not something that is open to other participants and the the keys that are participating in it and the just sort of windows. We referenced it in the last part but partially signed Bitcoin transactions. It's it BIP 174 which gives us the ability to have a standard where on ramp can can sign a transaction, Coincover can sign a transaction, we go can go receive that transaction. Because we have this agreed upon standard in you know the Bitcoin ecosystem where I can go receive and and understand and see that I had that half signed on chain and then goes counter sign on chain to send out a multi say transaction. Yeah, interoperability, it's very important. Yeah. And it might make sense like just to take a a bird's eye view to step back from like the minutiae because it is important from the the technical perspectives. But we talked about the past 15 years and the things I wrote down and there was a few mentioned which was SVB which was the the latest and that was like from the money here in the States. But then, you know, we think about what happened with. The treasury market with Russia's treasuries or the the trucker instance like this, this value prop around why Bitcoin matters is has increased and we've seen it the past 15 years. But you know the WikiLeaks, I mean it's no shortage and we think about our part, you know participate in this. The same can be said for custody. And so it's really. Special to be here today but also just like in Vegas in the conversations we're having and to launch this multi institution at this like precipice of this time where I think we all feel bitcoins appreciation and price will occur. But imagine having the existing model that's been that's that's lit with all these poles. As the only option and there's been people that have done it the right way. Coinbase had you know to our knowledge has been OK well, you know probably people have lost funds. It's by their own instance, not not not Coinbase but it goes another. But to offer the market another product that is native to the protocol, that's interoperable to that is, is really incredible and like to make it really whole while we are setting this up and doing the testing. You know we're part of this multi institution product is not a name only where there's you know keys distributed and then in on RAMP or a third party can just go and start Willy nilly directing the the keys and the movement of funds. And it was really like powerful to get on a call as part of the process and testing with the Bitco trust team to go in and verify that the authentication when you think about all the process. So on RAMP has its own process? And then to go to bet, go and have somebody in a completely different location under a completely different entity have to verify before they would produce that signature. And then understanding that and then knowing coin covers best in class operator that they've been doing under the radar what they've been doing. Because it's almost like when I talked to, I think it was always from your team. Have you referenced it was very like thankless job when you think about Coin Cover's role because they're out there protecting but they're not at the forefront because you really want it to be known if you needed Coin cover, but you know that they're there and they've kind of changed some of that. You know we can probably talk about it, but knowing that those keys are distributed and really sitting there and and almost obviously I'm biased. But being able to go to the market which we've been chatting and say this is the best product in the market. This is the best way to custody Bitcoin from a large scale if you need redundancies and to know that like 1 institution or one entity can't rug you. It's pretty cool feeling. I think the model we're talking with banks, we're talking folks and they all see it and they're going to come in and we're excited about it. But to know that we're here like being at the forefront and participating is just really, really exciting to say like we've seen the value prop of the asset now we're seeing the value prop of understanding the custody solution and how we can participate in a different form of it for the next like chapter in bitcoins adoption look. I think. Go for my Mitch. No, you got it. Sure. I look I we we all see what's coming you know with you know the potential price appreciation you know and the new institutional players that are coming into the space and it's on us right now to go build those rails to to go handle you know like I mentioned the last one the the trillion dollar wallet rather than the billion dollar wallet and it's solutions like this that ultimately give us the capacity to to handle and reduce counterparty risk so we can handle the maturation of the industry. I I want to give a quick shout out to to coincover and you know I I don't know if there's a company that really fits the the value prop and you know right place right time of you know this this now push and excitement around multi institution custody like you guys you know you you talked about the the hot wallets that you know how you operate with Bicco in the past you know in a sense that was multi institution custody where you've got a key held by you know whatever company was using or had paid for the coin cover services and the BICCO services and you had spread a key across 3 three different companies and I I think that's you know it's we've been doing it for years it's been proved out that that it works and you know credit to you guys and then credit to on ramp for for seeing the vision and saying let's productize this and you know let's make sure we you know let's secure that that that third key you know to the standards that you guys do and productize that and you know build the story around that that this should be the future of custody and and go to market with that. So look the the foundation's been there and excited to see on ramp and you know the other Trail Blazers here go to market with us and and see how we do and. Alex, I'm particularly interested to get your perspective on how you see. Multi institution custody particularly the role of individual key agents cuz obviously you have this partnership with Bitco and on ramp down the hall you guys just announced something with Unchained and Kingdom Trust as well. So how do you see like the proliferation of key agents playing out into the future and how they interact with each other? Yeah, it's an interesting one. Because we have quite a unique take on that for the time being in that coin cover. Throughout its history, through all the various forms of delivering the services that we do, we've always maintained that we will be a non custodial entity. We were only ever interested in holding onto enough material, enough key material, so that we can look after it, take it away, encrypt it, keep it super safe. And then return it so that you've got enough material to either sign a recovery transaction or reconstitute some keys, whatever it is, whatever platform you're using. And we do that so that there are 0 conflicts of interest, right? You don't really want to be parking or seeking recovery services from an entity who's also running a a kind of custodial offering as well. So we've always been very careful to distinguish that and we will always be doing that. That's different perhaps from other key agents that are currently participating in in in this model. And so that I mean that that's one of the ways I'll be interested to see how that continues to play out. I think when you think about an institution entering the space for the first time, right. So this is reflected on the kinds of conversations I have with, you know, entities who haven't quite. Made-up their mind about where they wanted custody assets but they have decided that they want to use coin cover in some respect because what they're used to is you know good risk control, risk mitigations in place. Essentially what what they come to us for looking for is insurance and so we take them on a little bit of journey around like what does that mean in this space And really they go through this journey of OK, but there's the self custody option. I could use a hardware wallet. I could use one of the. And let's call them self custodial or direct custodial options of the market. And they realise that actually that's a lot of risk that they're taking on. And it's not just because all of that risk is centralized with you as the union of your own assets. There is the technical complexity, there's the operational process and the burden around looking after private keys and the knowledge and the expertise around that that you need to have in house in order to pull it off well. So they decide that option's not for them. And then they think, OK, well, maybe I'll go down the sort of QC routes and a lot of people do this, you know, awesome institutions build businesses out of this, but Go is 1, Anchorage is 1. But then again, this year we've seen some failings there as well, right? Just because someone has qualified custody status doesn't mean that behind the scenes, the management of private keys is being run to a high standard. And so enter this model where you have abstracted away the kind of complexities around looking after keys yourself. You've also removed the risk of a third party looking after these keys and having to trust them. And now all of a sudden you've got a set up where, OK, both of those risks are entirely mitigated just due to the fact that there are three parties involved. It's very. Easy to see how quickly someone who's gone through that journey goes. Ah, OK, well, there is a model that totally alleviates the risk for me. I still have the option for a recovery key partner in there. That's cool because I wanted that. But essentially, I can crack on and custody these assets without having to worry about counterparty risk in a way that I have been before, with neither of the custody options really giving me full confidence that. Those risks have been mitigated. So to me like it's a it's a no brainer. I expect, you know, companies who will come along and try to eat coin covers lunch, they should be, you know, kind of dialling up you guys right now trying to get involved in this because it's, yeah, quite quite obviously going to shake up the custody landscape quite extensively over the next 12 months. Thanks for tuning in to The Last Trade. If you're enjoying the show and want to dive deeper, check us out at on rampbitcoin.com where you'll find a full suite of institutional grade research and analytics including our recently published white paper bitcoins, full potential valuation and our new tool, the On Ramp Terminal. Now back to the show. Yeah, just to add to like what Mitch said, huge kind of just you know shout out and also like just. Coin covers like core model. I I don't think honestly could have come up with a better archetype for what we needed in this solution or what somebody would need if they were leveraging. Especially in this role, I think there's different roles in primary, secondary, and then the backup as his current construct. And the three main things are jurisdictional. So if you're looking for something outside of the United States, they sit in the UK, which is valuable for for a number of reasons. That they're independent which is I think also very important where this like key architecture starts to go and multi institution is more from like game theory on who do you want to be holding a key and and ideally you want somebody where it's not their core business from a signing perspective that they have other businesses lines attached to it, but their reputation is attached to making sure that they fulfill those obligations. And this could be banks and other institutions that have a larger trust factor outside of just signing the key and that if they didn't fulfill that obligation. It would be a, you know, it would not be good for their business reputation. And then it's our core competency, which is probably the most important in this respect that they've been due for X number of years. But then also from this exact role of holding a key that does not need to be leveraged operationally while it can, you know on a, you know, T plus let's call it 24 hours or 48 hours that the reality is it's it's they're meant as a recovery agent. And so they have the processes in place from not only like the security, but the when it comes to like communications to make sure that the parties that they're working with. There's always a channels open to to confirm if that recovery is actually valid or not. To being able to authenticate you know annually or whatever cadence is required to make sure that that key is still exists and they're still operationally focused until you tie those things together and tell us is. Point it's like if you know we're all right we're going to see more people come to the space and step in and and try to you know re craft or create these offerings and it's I think it's good it's a good thing because we're basically rebuilding a financial system or at least I'd like to think we are. But ultimately they have such a leg up because they were doing this forever and again. Credit to them and Adam, their Co founder who's jumped on multiple calls with us and saw this vision of like, hey. This actually is part of what we've been doing. And if your vision of the future is potentially one that we can participate in and grow or maybe they're not the backup at all times, never heard them say that. But I can see a vision where they participate in other constructs and the economics are different for how they participate. It seems like a great opportunity and and a lot of firms we've talked to could have done this as well. But Coincover said, yeah, we see this, let's participate. So I think it's just really a testament and similar to bit go and just like being entrepreneurial internally while still having Rep, you know, very like sound businesses to say, hey, we see this vision of the future. We'd love to participate because we think this is where the puck's going to. You know, I think we, we've been focused on you know how do we build the best key agents in this model. But to go into a little bit more depth on, on what you mentioned Michael, I think where we fit in the signing process. You know there will be companies that are the best recovery key agent. There will be companies that are the best second signer, first signer in these setups. You know and what's important about each of those you know I guess the attributes that make up a a good key agent you know for for second third signer is going to be different. You know Bitco we've got the infrastructure to at least you know at the at the current point where we're we're best at 2nd signer. You know we ensure that you know policies that have been adhered to. We can do video verifications like we do for you guys to to check that you know the customer that it is a part of this wallet is indeed you know signing off on the transaction. We can broadcast out to our nodes. We we've got all the infrastructure in place to be that ideal second signer and we do have other jurisdictions that we that we can operate out of as well. But at the same time, you know coin covers value prop has been in recovery and has been recovery for years and being that entity that you know that's their core competency. They sit outside the transaction normally but have all the rails and security built that you know in case of that disaster, in case of key loss, you know this is what they're good at. And I think the, you know what we'll see over the next few years is it's not just saying I'm going to be the best key agent. It's here are the attributes why I am you know the particular key agent you need for for this part of the process and I like for for first signer and to to go into that a bit I I think the first signer should have the best relationship with the customer there should be a familiarity there to you know as a transaction takes place to to know that you know no fraud has occurred to see through a you know a deep fake for a video you know I I I know you know some of the Michael we've had a lot of we had a lot of chats in Vegas so sort of are the possible and you know where this goes but. Like ultimately to build out the the most security possible, you need to have a relationship with that customer to you know to to see around all the edge cases and and make sure that it is the customer that is showing up, you know that is asking for for that transaction to be signed. So there's a lot of ways to do it. It's very exciting and I know we can talk about that for a while, but I I do think each of these three companies fit beautifully, you know, in what we do best as our part of the key signing process. I mean, I don't want to give up. Just do a. That plays into it. Sorry, Alex, no way I. Was just trying to tie together to the threads, right? It's Coincover does occupy this unique space. In that it's not glamorous work, It's not sexy. When you think about, you know, buying a car and then you have to buy car insurance, like it's something you have to do, you don't relish that conversation. Backing up your private key is like starting to see, OK, that that is something you have to do. People are starting to learn that they don't relish that conversation. We exist simply to make that as easy as possible and to make that problem disappear, right? We're very privileged to be in that position because we did get a leg up. We started this very early on. Shout out to Adam and our Keys team and our brilliant engineers. It takes a lot of sweat to build up the infrastructure where you can be looking after backups of keys safely, right? Like you, you can't just open up. Vault somewhere, you know, over the course of three months and start tracking material inside and start hiring people and start scaling A-Team without seriously doing your due diligence and vetting every single inch of that process end to end. And you know that's something that Adam has been doing over a lifetime of work. That's what he brings to Coin Cover. That's what he brought through into our work with Bitco, and it's really only possible when you've been. Doing that for kind of 20 years plus, right, That knowledge, that expertise that builds into that core competency, it's not glamorous, but it's super, super effective and much needed And so yeah, very, very cool to be on that journey with coin cover as they found themselves in this unique position I. Would push back on that, I think. I think it's sexier than you think, and it's sexy because it is. An essential fundamental primitive to actually scaling this thing and many people will look at it as boring. But I think in the early days of Bitcoin, a most strong believer that there's an order of operations to Bitcoin's inevitable success. The amount of success that we all believe it can have on this call and services like Coin Cover is providing it is is an essential fundamental to get to where we want to go and even though. It may seem a little boring and unsexy. I think it's actually really sexy because it is an unlock that gets us to the really cool stuff, which gets into a point that you were bringing up earlier, Alex, which I think once you guys prove this model Unchained running with this model, Anchor Watch is coming to mark with this model. There's more and more companies coming with this model and we've discussed this. In the past, but I think it's worth repeating. Like I do think once it becomes glaringly obvious to the market that this is the optimal solution to custodying large amounts of Bitcoin, it's going to be demanded by end users and you're essentially on the tip of the spear of and acting as a forcing function on the rest of the market to get on board with this multi institution model. Yeah, we're, we're. Go ahead. Well, I was, I was going to say yes. And I think institutions will lead the way. Like I I think this will filter down into everyday people who wants to use Bitcoin as well, right? Like we've always posited that until you solve this risk, how do I put it? Being in charge of your own money is a huge responsibility and people have been conditioned over the past. People start banking at 200 years to do in, in a modern sense right over the past 200 years to give control of that over to another entity. What we're talking about is retraining and re educating people to know what that freedom is, to be in charge of your own assets and your own money but also be sensible around what the risks are, right? And that's just something people aren't used to and. When you think about the fact that this started 15 years ago, that is not enough time to generationally bet in this concept that OK, you're in charge of your own money again, what does that mean? How do I treat that? Yeah, well and truly tip of the spear. But you know, I don't know if I'm being corny and saying it's quite a noble aim to be really setting up a way for people to take. Control of their money again, right? And give them a viable way to look after it without being at risk of losing everything. It's extremely noble. No, we don't wanna blow smoke up our own asses. But again, going back to the order of operations, if Bitcoin is to succeed to the level that we would like it to, the the stuff is essential. We're not gonna get to the end goal of what many people think is possible without. Products like this, solutions like this, and it's crazy, I mean, meant you were mentioning it earlier, but this is truly unique to Bitcoin and other UTXO based assets where I think Bitcoin's the most advanced. With the PSPD standard. Like you can all work on this individually and just leveraging the standards that exist in the open source community to create solutions that work together. I I wanna one more time rehash the the the sexiness of of custody I I do agree that you know as far as topics you know fixing money you know there's a lot of really cool things to talk about here how you're storing it. I personally you know have been passionate about but order of operations you know it might be glossed over or glazed eyes you know when when you're talking about holding those funds at at the same time I I you know the biggest black eye we have as an industry right now is what happened at FTX. And you know generally when you're talking to the broader population about Bitcoin about crypto you know that's the first thing that comes to mind. And you know even coming back from the airport they were selling Michael Lewis going infinite cannabis bags at the airport gift shop. We've got work to do to to instill confidence in this industry and and making sure that the coins that that you've purchased are are still there. And you know it's only with telling stories like this and actually getting people to understand how coins are being held and how to check and verify that your coins are there. Are we going to have the success that we all want to? Yeah. I sorry, the weather got a little cold in Texas and so the power went out. So that's where the different different has changed. On Bluetooth, it's a catch 20. It's like two sides, right? It's like the most sexy thing and then least sexy thing in the sense of it's sexy because we're nerds and freaks and we're like, oh, like this is how the world changes. And then it's unsexy because if you think about market participants, they're going to wake up and be like, oh, you mean I can buy this thing and it doesn't get like, put in a Ponzi and get lent out. And it doesn't disappear overnight. Maybe now I can allocate $100 billion or whatever the number is and so. You know, I think it was just a natural evolution where I think that a lot of people haven't fully woken up to and this is what's like the most interesting in my mind. And because we were chatting with Coincover for close to a year with Tom, we got to give Tom a shout out because he was working with us for for a good while and he was in in Vegas with us that you like. Ultimately the vision of where this goes from multi institution to how do the funds move, but then ultimately like what are the financial products around multi institution? Because there's this notion that you shouldn't have your key, the custodian, which I think a single custodian doesn't make sense and there's also a notion where you want to hold your keys offline in your own multi second, I think for a portion of that it definitely makes sense. But if Bitcoin becomes money and you want to participate in a financial world where you either need to lock it up in a lightning channel because you have a certain provider that's going to provide liquidity and give you some interest on that and you have a trusted party or you are going to invest in a bond, whatever the case might be, you need to access that Bitcoin and there has to be nobody talks about, well, what's the way to get access to that Bitcoin other than going into deep cold storage if Bitcoin's money and now you have to go access your keys like you should not really be accessing that capital. That's. Long term, frequently because that's a a tax surface. And so as we think through some of these products and the things we plan to bring to market, it's really this foundation of like OK, well you can trust your parties or multiple parties that participate in this. And then now I can actually participate in an economy of financial services with knowing that I won't get rugged while I also won't, you know, be in, you know, increasing the chance that I could actually have something happen when the price of Bitcoin is 250K. And I have X Bitcoin and I need to go move a Bitcoin to do Y. And now people are looking at me or looking at like my patterns to understand what's happening. I think a lot of these things haven't really been discussed. And are there important factors if this thing actually turns into money and we want to use it, whether it's day-to-day or year to year? Yeah, It's optionality. That's what the market needs. The optionality has been sort of narrowly focused on. The wild early adopters who are comfortable taking the risk of self custody, spinning up their own wallets, spinning up their own multi sig quorums and buying a cold card, putting their Bitcoin in cold storage. And like you said, Alex, that has kept a lot of the institutions at more than arm's length, probably like a AA12 foot pole worth of length between Bitcoin and them as 'cause they really can't. Allocate to this asset in good conscious and somebody who worked at a fund, a fund of funds that index Ctas like even at that level like the amount of due diligence that we had to do just to invest in a fund, literally travel around the world, show up and look at the servers where people were executing trades like and that's something that on the back end of the financial system is really controlled by clearing houses and broker dealers, but you still had to do your due diligence at. The commodity trading advisor actually had the servers they they said they did and then when you bring that to Bitcoin, the the stakes are just so much higher because it's this digital bearer asset. Yeah, I mean, it's one of the most fascinating things that I can get past of like people can't allocate because they don't feel comfortable that the money's going to be there. Like, forget about all the principles of 21 million and the things. It's like they just can't get past the fact that, like, everything that's happened. The most recent FTX but it's like well why would that not happen to X individual because it's happened historically that's all they see and so you like present that to the world And then the other part and all of this is the trust like we talked about this on previous pods but like free banking and this idea of like I in my mind and this could be wrong but like when I think of free banking I think of just like a trusted part, a trusted entity and fulfilling the obligations and so there's this requirements and institutional world of. You know, DE QS and due diligence questionnaires or what are the process that you went through to assess? And while those are necessary to check a box, the ultimate barometer in my mind, and I think where we go, is do you fulfill the obligations that you were meant to do, whether it's like I leant against the Bitcoin you deliver, the Bitcoin you were meant to sign. And we're starting to see that and it'll continue to grow or it won't actually matter your qualified custodian license or whatever it is, but it's actually falls into did you fulfill the obligations in those track records of a coin cover a little bit go where on ramp you know aims to be you look and it's like as good as gold that they will sign. They will do what they're supposed to. I think plays into all this from a reputational perspective, starts to matter a lot more because some firms just won't fulfill the obligations that we've seen, as we've seen. Yeah. Now this has me very curious. Have either of you, any three of you gentlemen, run into an institution that has a pretty fleshed out DDQ for Bitcoin custody cause Again, going back to the fund that I worked at, I was on the portfolio management team and when we were going through the DDQI was again checking those servers. You had like emergency like fall back options like if somebody dies at the firm like who takes over, what is their contingency plan? Like has anybody even figured that out on the institutional side in regards to Bitcoin custody and what would that and what would that DDQ look like if they haven't. So I'd say we, we get very, very extensive DD QS from anyone from U.S. government to financial institutions around the world shout out to my solutions team who fills those out on a regular basis. You know it's a very, very extensive list, you know and I think some companies do great, some companies you know maybe miss the mark on what they should be asking. But you know those ZD QS certainly certainly exist and can be painful at times, but heart's in the right place for sure. But to on the other question, the fact of the matter is, you know it's not just being AQC, but it's the proof of work ultimately. And you know you've got a lot of history with Bicco and Coincover here. But ultimately you know the only ways that we're going to prove that an institution is worthwhile and being part of these setups is, is by doing the proof of work and showing you know having clients go in and doing test transactions. Actually seeing that funds move and you know being key agents and doing the roles that we do for a period of time that you know the market you know agrees is is you know is enough and you know builds the trust in you know this multi institution set up that we all believe that that we can deliver here. But it's the same that you know Becca's been around for 10 years and you know flywheel of assets you know does occur. You know as you stay in the industry longer you become the more trusted party and you know the the reputation does the marketing for you and you know that only helps our marketing team by you know being that you know we're still here. It certainly certainly helps and I I think it, you know, will only lend more credence to these multi institutional setups. Yeah, and I'm tying this back to like FTX. The lack of trust that exists out there because of FTXI mean people. Just look at SPF on the stand during this trial the last couple weeks. It's like, how the hell did anybody ever trust this guy with a cent of money, let alone billions of dollars. But going back, the point to make here is that having a low time preference going slow and steady, really focusing on doing things right and doing right by your end customer. At the end of the day, especially again 15 years since the white paper launched, like if the early companies, whether it be BICCO, Coincover on ramp, others in the space execute on building a good reputation and a good relationship with their clients. We're talking about institutions that could be around for more than a century. We could be seeing the emergence of the JP Morgans, Goldman Sachs, BNY Mellons in the Bitcoin space. In this 1st 15 years. Yeah, I never recognize and maybe this is naive me and I kind of use this, these weekly pauses like learning things in real time as we're building this business and and being able to share them. And one of the biggest is like who your counterparty is from like the very top down and founders or executives at a company. Because you just hit the nail on the head, Marty, with like you imagine the contrast between SBF and Mike Belgi. You couldn't literally have different people and the different companies and trajectories of them. And so like the DDQ and a lot of that is going to be coming to life when you think about what does it look like multi institution DDQ versus a single institution and we're starting out those discussions. But ultimately I don't think there's a single bullet for like how you evaluate your custodian in this world. It's more of like you know the leadership, the, the key partner, key partners, the vehicle product, the product vehicles and the reason for that is because. If you look at Bitcoin's past, let's call it 24 months or 15 years, you can probably go to every founder and executive and look at their track record and what they did before and be like. Maybe we should have looked at this a little further versus the ones that are still alive. And there's like this model of the future, this version of what they've been doing. And so I think that's just like this new thing that I've started to like realize like if you go assess a counterparty. You should want to really get into the weeds of like what is the vision of their future? Like where is their cash flow? How are they thinking about, you know, custody in this landscape and the future landscape? What are the other products? Who are their partners? Because I think you start to really put a whole picture around, is this a party, to Marty's point? Do you that you want to have for one year, 10 year, 100 year, 100 years, or is this something that hasn't been fully fleshed out? And yeah, I just like looking back, you can kind of see based on, you know, founders and teams who really can stand the test of time because they just have a foundational grasp and like what is happening here with the future of like this space versus somebody that's coming in and just kind of like duct taping things together and then ultimately we've seen what happens when that occurs. And it goes deeper than that, right? Like, is this the way that you want a custody assets of five years, 10 years, 50 years, whatever? I think it was on the last pod you guys were throwing around this idea that actually you need to be building for you know true trillionaires situations where you have assets consolidated at an address that is worth over a trillion dollars and like that has an insane amount of value to to think about protecting and keeping safe and what's nice is. When you you know, we do this at Coincover. When people come to us, we really like to reset the conversation because people think about, OK, I need this, I need this, can you can you solve this problem for me? And what we like to do is wind back and say actually, OK, let's start from the beginning, What are you trying to do? What are you scared of? What are you as an institution, actually worried about when it comes to risk? And it always comes down to, OK, well, I'm worried about getting broke, pulled. I'm worried about someone getting control of signing transactions and stealing from me. I'm worried about my assets being kind of commingled or mixed or or moved somewhere else without me knowing the same risks all the time. What's nice about this model is actually you have a really nice and simple answer to guide people through getting comfortable with those risks. And so when you think about a custody model that stands the test of time and also the test of having to be able to store trillions of dollars worth, today's dollars worth of assets inside them. You really need to be able to take people through that journey of getting comfortable with those risks and and educating them and allowing them to understand that, OK, fundamentally baked into the set up, you know, it's it's not superficial tools that we're laying over on top to to mitigate these risks. It's actually baked into the way that the solution can get. Yeah, it's it's goes back to what we chatted about the billion dollar like nobody's ever been a billionaire until Bitcoin that like you did. And if you think about it, we're basically getting ahead of where people's concerns are. And the question B would be from the outside is how the fuck would you guys know what my concerns are? And then already haven't shared this because we haven't caught up since Vegas, but I had this unlocked when I was talking about I think it was with Mitch at the event we hosted. And it's the reason we're able to articulate these concepts and build them is because we are either very smart or very dumb that we've been allocating A disproportionate amount of our capital to this space. And so we had to figure out, how do you custody it? Custody that right. And so then you think about, well, what was their early solution That was an early Unchained client. Parker identified Okay. This person is using this. Maybe he can actually go out and sell it and help, you know, get product market fit and develop that because he had internalized what is the risk when you have a disproportionate amount of your capital stored. And in that same respect is how this product and this like multi institution came about is realizing that as you go through thousands of onboardings and billions of dollars in allocation, it's like, OK, that works. But then there's a lot of people that can't do it that way for whatever reason, whether rental blocks or from an institutional fiduciary perspective cannot leap there. And that's ultimately how you come to these conclusions and there will be other ones. There will be different quorum structures and different entities and different regulations that are required. But we're just living effectively in the future because we've looked at this so long that we're like, OK, when that trillion dollar wallet exists, the person can't deal with Coinbase. It just can't make sense. And even though they don't know it, when that happens they're going to freak out. Just like holding a Ledger underneath your mattress when it's $10 million freaks people out today and they still do it and there's going to be an equilibrium point when the price hits 60 and then 72. And then 105 at every point going up where they start picking up the phone and and calling on RAMP or Unchained or any firm that's participating in things like this. Because the reality is like we just haven't put ourselves in the spot or most people haven't to be managing that amount of wealth knowing that if I mess it up, it's all gone and it can't even be there messing up. It could just be like external factors that mess it up for them. But anyway, that was another another unlock. Me, Me and Marty have been chatting like a week and 1/2, so I'm just kind of sharing things I generally would have had behind this. No. But you're you're spot on, right? Like we we've seen this in the past year at Coincover. Has it been a year, has been over a year ago. The moment FTX happened the phone started ringing, right. People were like, oh OK, this risk mitigation thing is real. Like I I need to be thinking about how safe for my assets and who has access to my private keys. What happens when private keys get lost? What am I doing to mitigate, like the risks of my assets being used for other things than what what I stored them there for? Right. And it's until people start to, until it becomes real, people feel a bit of pain and it becomes personal for them, they won't act. And we saw that with risk mitigation and that was great for us. I think you're spot on, Michael, that. Yeah. As that pressure increases and people start to sweat as Bitcoin grows next year and you know, we're all very, very bullish on it, I think people will start to pick up the phone and say, OK, I'm not, I'm now no longer comfortable with the risk here. I now need a better way to custody these assets. Yeah, fully expect to see that and like IA bit of confidence that we saw the exact same thing play out albeit differently, but it it will happen again and again. I think being a Bitcoin or you're acutely aware of the edge cases that turn into the actual cases. But when things go wrong, how to protect against them? There's an inherent paranoia that comes into you know, your keys or your money. There's no, you know, FDIC insurance that that bails you out when something goes wrong. So I think he, you know, inherently and you know, my keys are you know. A very, very significant portion of the of the wealth that you know my family has and you know we plan on passing on to our kids and living off of. So in you know building you know the the perfect or the ideal product and continuing to perfect that product. You know, I think it it is, you know, I don't know if there is anybody better at building for. In that scenario then you know the people who who worry about it or or have to worry about it as you know on an everyday basis because you know they're in those shoes. So I I do think we are building for that trillion dollar wallet because you know ultimately you know we're storing our our, our life force, our our, our earnings here and you know, I I would. Want to keep that with the you know the best standards that that that are humanly possible. Yeah. Like we said last week, that wall gets really heavy when the price starts running. Thank God there's solutions coming to market that make it a little a little weightless if you will bring Peace of Mind to the market. Yeah, I'm really glad you recorded that. On the white paper day, because I think this is going to be like a very good Evergreen like to like basically how we got here and then where we're headed. And I think Mitch, what he referenced is also like, Mitch has been a special part in all of this because he recognized what we're doing and had the autonomy within Bit Go. And bit go has a focus, you know, on Bitcoin infrastructure as well as crypto to build products of the future. And he had that problem in his own mind of like, how do I custody the thing and how do I think about it to see like, Oh well, others are going to have that. And so they're like we're we're sitting here today is like it's just a kind of like amalgamation of like the past, you know, 5 plus years, however long people have been in the space, all with their own little parts in it coming together. And this is a big part of this podcast because we're able to like, share a lot of the like process that goes into it versus looking at a screen and saying, oh, this looks interesting and there's like there's a lot of. Back story and work. That was done to get this to to where it is today. And this is just be one of of what's you know what's coming. I you know we we had the conversations in Vegas. We've been having the conversations of you know are the possible for this whether that be you know truly multi jurisdictional or building and things like time locks or you know Marty flashed the card you know to to prove identity there. There are ways to step up here, and I think only real bitcoiners are going to keep pushing this forward. And you know bringing you know that that infrastructure and that redundancy to to make the best products out there in the industry. And I think that's how ultimately we end up differentiating from traditional finance tradition, like differentiating from the ETF and making sure that, you know, Bitcoin lives outside the brokerage account. Yeah. And with that, considering it's White Paper Day, we're talking about the 1st 15 years. Of Bitcoin where we may go in the future. Let's end it with a treat for anybody watching this podcast on YouTube or Spotify. Michael Goldstein, the meme king of Bitcoin, came out the great white paper video today that I think we should watch 'cause it really puts the context of everything that happened before Bitcoin launched into consideration, which many people don't realize. Bitcoin was birthed on the on the shoulders of giants. Make sure you start it from the beginning. I don't believe that we should ever have a good money again before we take the thing out of the hands of government, because we can't take them violently out of the hands of government. All we can do is pass some sly around the Broadway and to do something so you can't stop. None. The. Goosebumps. Found the slide roundabout way guys. We did it, but if you only need 2. Percent allocation, it's it's OK. Shout out to Michael, the meme God of Bitcoin. That that one gave me goosebumps. Actually had a behind the scenes look at how that was developed over the last few weeks. Could've waited for it to be dropped this morning. Love it. We have to give a shout out to to Jesse as well. I don't know if we addressed he's he's not on the pod today because he is in flight you know we're we like to build redundancies and strength in a in a unit and for having him in Texas is an important function of our operational. Our financial resilience and you know had a good discussion with Mitch and Alex in Vegas and it looks like you know Texas can be on the cards for them maybe to start to visit. But at some point you know I think we're starting the process of getting getting them their their units can be jurisdictionally segregated across the world but them from a personal perspective think Texas is in their. Future Michael was pretty instrumental in me realizing that I've. I'm long New York, in short, Texas. And you know the risk that that provides. Now, I'm not ready to make the jump yet, but I'm I'm at least aware of the risk. Touch points? Yeah, no, I am. I don't know if you remember this, but you did extend an invitation to myself and Tom to get a taste of that sweet, sweet freedom. So we will be coming over to have a look around. It's pretty sweet. It's pretty sweet. Somebody was in New York for a while. It is much different. As Michael says, you get to Texas at the price you deserve. That's. Right. Gentlemen, this has been a pleasure. Before we wrap up, is any anyone have parting notes on what you guys are building? Anything we didn't touch on, we can send the audience away with I'm. Just glad you guys joined. Excited that it was good to see you guys last week and then glad we were able to have this discussion today. Yeah, no notes. I was going to say no real point notes about coin cover, but if Mitch ever offers to play a few hands of Texas Holdem with you, I'd I'd advise to decline if if you. If you care about money, that's only you. Bam, Mitch. Mitch is a killer. Yeah, it was only taken Fiat, so it's OK my my take away from the the week. It was. It was really that this is the V1 here and the excitement is is toppable of that we're we're building the rails here and not stopping and I couldn't be more excited and nothing I'd rather be working on we're. Going to win? Happy White Paper Day, gentlemen. Got a happy White's mentality distributed. Multi sig, multi institution, multi jurisdiction, jurisdictional custody. It's the future. We're building it. Go forth, work hard, let's get it. We got the sly roundabout way. See you next week.
Transcript source: fountain