Transcript+
Before we get into the episode, a quick reminder that this podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes only and nothing should be construed as investment or legal advice. Now for a word from on RAMP on RAMP is a Bitcoin asset management platform built on multi institution custody, leveraging our partnerships with industry veterans BITCO and Coincover on ramps. Multi Institution Custody is a segregated vault requiring two of three institutions at any point in time to sign once a client's unique permissions have been met. Our industry leading best in class approach to custody helps individuals and institutions secure new and existing Bitcoin positions. All keys are held in deep cold storage and kept 100% offline. Managed with institutional grade security best practices. The custody solution eliminates single points of failure and reduces counterparty risks, ensuring maximum security and Peace of Mind. Onramp's suite of products includes our custody offering, a spot Bitcoin fund, private wealth services and inheritance planning, and managed wealth for advisors. Whether you're new to Bitcoin or a veteran in the space, we would love to connect with you. To understand your needs and how we can serve you, please visit ourwebsite@onrampbitcoin.com or you can schedule a consultation and connect directly with our team. What you're telling me is that music is about to stop, and we're going to be left holding the biggest bag of odorous extra ever assembled in the history of Darkness 1970? 4. 198792972. 1000 and whatever we're going to call this. It's all just the same thing over and over. We can't help ourselves. I say when we sell. I say when we sell. Gentlemen, we're on the last trade and we just had the last trade of Bitcoin without an ETF. Today's the first day of the ETF. There's your corny opening for the week. It's. Good. It's all good. Dave and Larry, we're pumped to have you here. Is this a momentous, is this a momentous occasion? That's the that's the big question. Yeah, see it. You know, there's $100 trillion depending upon who's measuring what you're measuring. Let's say there's conservatively 40 to $100 trillion of RIA money that couldn't buy a Trezor and couldn't buy GBTC and couldn't buy Bitcoin in any other form that now has the ability to just click a button and buy Bitcoin. I mean paper Bitcoin, admittedly, but it's not the same as holding your own keys. But you know, assuming the auditors are not corrupt, you're actually buying Bitcoin with one of these things. So you're saying you're saying of maybe 100 trillion now there's suddenly demand to get maybe a 1% allocation into an asset class that is currently $1 trillion? What's the marginal? Well, and and it's better than that Jesse because as we all know $1 trillion asset class today, you know 70% of that or what we would consider to be pretty damn strong hands that haven't moved their key their coin for over a year or maybe in some cases two. So they're really bidding on, let's call it 300 billion of what I would call tradable coin today, you know, soon to be in April to be growing at you know 8 tenths of a percent per year and now growing at 1 1/2% per year. I I think, you know, I think people are going to be shocked. I mean I, I, I think Samsung might be onto something here. We'll have to see, I think. The other thing is you know you look at like a Galaxy, you know obviously real smart group of people there that are estimating 13 to $40 billion of ETF inflows over the next three years. Like that just sounds too light to me, like way too light when you think about, I mean all sorts of things like you know like we're all getting caught up in the flows and ETFs. But what what no one's talking about in the last five days that I see is this whole macro backdrop which I'm sure we'll get into that might have a Black Swan event that then catalyzes real movements into this asset class. And so the good news is the on ramps to this asset class for those Rias that used to do the traditional 6040 equity bonds. You know if we ever get a, you know a real upside down bond market this beyond ramp to this asset class got really easy. So I I don't know I'm, I don't want to be hyperbolic but I thought Galaxy was way too conservative than that until Larry's point. You know if if if there's a trillion dollars at a minimum over the next few years chasing an asset class of you know call it 300 billion is he saying of of you know call it a third of the Bitcoin market cap. But you know I I just it's unbelievable kind of how much demand over supply this will be and then we don't even and then we could even get into the scarcity and the happening and all that. So it's it's all a lot of interesting things happening. Well, not only the macroeconomic landscape, that's a tailwind behind this right now, but what does the ETF BlackRock coming in? Galaxy Valkyrie, ARK 11 ETFs getting approved. What does that do for FOMO from other types of large investors? Like I wrote this in the newsletter last night. How many nation states does this send a light bulb off in their minds? Like, oh maybe we should get Bitcoin. Like that's a whole slug of capital that I don't think people are even talking about. Everybody's hyper focused on the RAA market, the institutional capital. But what does this do for other layers of the hierarchy of big capital allocators? Yep. Yeah, I mean you think of the sovereign wealth funds that probably haven't really embraced it, you know in in the Middle East and other places. I mean other than El Salvador, there hasn't really been another country to embrace it. You know, none of the big corporations have embraced it other than, you know, MicroStrategy. You know there's there's just not enough coin to go around at these kind of prices and I I think people are going to be shocked at you know the prices that that emerged as a result of that fact. I mean I I can't see how we're not at 100,000 soon and and you know 2 to 500 within a year or two, I mean maybe less but certainly you know within a year or two. Yeah, pretty, pretty incredible. Recent stat from Microstrategy's recent buying spree. They purchased 35% of all the coins mined in the last quarter. Right. And that's and that's a company that's a $10 billion market cap company and it's the 15 hundredth biggest company in the world. Small potatoes really. Right. And he's not stopping. You know, yeah. And now who's joining him is it's Larry. It's it's your old classmates, people who run, you know, BlackRock and other large Trad 5 firms who suddenly have a vested interest in getting their clients to think that Bitcoin should be part of their portfolio. Hey Larry, you know who else isn't stopping? None of us. None of the people listening on the pond. I've you know a lot of times I'm sure we've all experienced this in regular world or like Bitcoin world where you go full circle Once you get educated, you kind of like end up back at like the meta level of oh this isn't like good for me or this was like good for Bitcoin and I had this realization we've been talking about. I think we all agree here these products are inferior to holding spot in various forms or fashions. But had this idea of like man, this is a trap and all the things associated with what happened to GBTC independent of like government intervention. Just the fact that the Bitcoin you know is sitting somewhere where you can't take delivery of. But then I had the realization it's like we look at this space so long, we've been looking at it so long that we think about it in the terms of like our allocations versus what a traditional individual that is sane for all intensive purposes. It's a like 1 to 3% alternative asset that sprinkled on top of their 6040. And my hope is and I think this is what we've seen play out as as you get educated with that one 3% whether it's somebody buying on cash app, buying a little through a river or looking at it through their brokerage account, you start to actually pay attention to like what is this thing I'm buying, what am I doing And then you learn about its properties. And that's why I think like this is always long term bullish for the asset, it's underlying fundamentals and companies building the right way because over time that kind of like cream rises to the top of oh wait, I don't want this all thirty 4050% sitting with Coinbase or BlackRock and and that's really where you know companies building the right way step in so. One of the. Realization. Would be true is that investors chase performance and I mean we're up 150 some odd percent last year and I suspect this year is going to be as good or better. And I mean, I was at the gym this morning with a guy who just, you know, he's kicking himself from missing the $15,000 buy opportunity. And his logic was that, well, I thought when FTX blew up that was it, all this shit was going away. And I said, well, you know, he didn't do the time to, to differentiate this from FTX. And he said, well what about Ethereum? You know there are use cases there. And I said, you know, OK, maybe but you know the monetary policy there's totally flawed. I noticed this morning they were talking about another 33% dilution in the Ethereum base. So, you know, just, and this is a guy who's a very sophisticated money manager, he knows what he's doing, so to speak, and he's not, he's not a bitcoiner, but I bet she's becoming one. So and there's just going to be a lot of that. I mean it it goes back to how early we all have been and how, you know, people have painted us as being crazy. And yet what we've really seen was quite logical. And we knew we weren't crazy, We were just early. And that brings up a good question. Is this the crossing the chasm moment for Bitcoin? I think that's been a big topic of discussion. And is this the inflection point that really thrust Bitcoin to a level where there's no going back? We're sort of leaving the early adopters phase into mainstream adoption over the next three to five. Years feels that way to me. I mean, if you that that model, Mark Malcolm Gladwell's model says when you get as many years as it takes to get to 10%, it takes the same number to get to 90%. And I it's hard to know where we're at, but being at it would strike me that we might be at 10%, maybe we're a tad lower, I'm not sure. But boy, this sure opens it up to everybody and it just makes it super easy, you know? Absolutely. So I think it's way earlier than 10% and and that's where that's where the numbers come in that are. It's kind of hard to to believe them really. But you know, you can look on chain at how many addresses have 0.1 Bitcoin in them, right? So that at this point that's $5000 and that might be too high of a bar at this point, so maybe we should lower it. But that that's the easy cut off to see on Chain. There's 4 million addresses with 0.1 Bitcoin in them. Which is to say, there's there's at most 4 million people in the world who have saved in an address they control, $5000 worth of coin. To be to be completely fair though, to be completely fair though Jesse, there there are some addresses, there's some people who own it in Coinbase or Gemini or other pieces. I mean you're right that's 4 million self custody people who own 1/10 of a coin or more. You know there's they're probably in all those brokerage accounts. What I would guess I wanted Coinbase say their customer count was like 15 million, 20 million. They've got to be you know 20-30 million brokerage accounts as well that have some right and we don't and we don't know how much but. Absolutely And and then it becomes a yeah, it's it's a bit fuzzy there of like where do you draw the line on what is adoption And you know I think it's I think you can make the argument and I've made it in the past that that you know if you really understand Bitcoin you will have used the network to secure some amount you know to. Have deep, deep understanding. Owns. They're 4 million people with deep understanding I agree with. You exactly And so that's a high bar but that that's zero point 0.05% of of people in the world like how low we're talking I actually. Will push back. I think it's 110th of whatever you guys just agreed on. The four million, I think with the the measure is material wealth because material wealth basically signals you've looked long enough to at least say if it's on Coinbase and it it evaporates or understand it because a lot of people just have accounts with 100 bucks or $1000 or 4000. I think material wealth, IE over 10% of a single person's personal account or portfolio, is less than 400,000 people globally. No, I find that hard to believe. Jesse, you done some work like a year ago on some of that, right? Trying to figure out that that that was a good day to you had. Yeah, yeah, I I triangulated that you know the the best source we have is, is the Ledger. You know that's the only transparent data that we have out there and and that's where that that 4 million addresses comes from and it's been ticking up nicely over over the last four years that went from 3 million to 4 million. So more people are adopting and you know, despite the fact that that that that in dollar terms has become, has gone from $1000 to now $5000 to to meet that 0.1 Bitcoin bar. Yeah, that number is going up. And then from there you have to triangulate like what percent of people have, you know, understand Bitcoin, have meaning meaningfully saved in Bitcoin, but they've done it in GBTC despite, you know, despite understanding Bitcoin and and realizing that it probably shouldn't just have GBTC. And then there it's kind of your classic, you know, back of the envelope consultant math to come up with something. But yeah, the hard and fast numbers are on the Ledger and and and and that's where it's kind of incredible how early it is. You know, if you if you look at just those numbers which really reflect like deep level of understanding of Bitcoin, it is so, so early that you know there's that's when no surprise there's only one Michael Saylor, you know doing this with the corporate balance sheet. There's only one El Salvador so far. We're just so early still. As I recall, I mean, apologize if I'm wrong, but I thought one of the conclusions that I remember reading your analysis was that if we counted people with 10,000 U.S. dollars of net worth in the world, it was well less than 1% of the global population had exposed to Bitcoin. Is that something like that? Yeah, yeah, I was using AI, was using a data source that that said that 2 billion people in the world have a net worth of $10,000. And so that to me is realistically the market for who's going to be interested in savings technology and Bitcoin and savings technology. And so of that number 4 million of 2 billion is half a percent of that group has sorry, less than half of of a percent that that's that 0.05% number because sorry, the other direction I'm. Putting the 2%. Yeah, that's .2% of that group, which you know. However, however way you cut it, it's incredibly small. Larry and David, I'd be curious like you guys have backgrounds in, you know, tradify. You've seen the markets like what has been your pre like dispose or kind of like thoughts around how stuff starts get a little getting a little weird. Like I was, you know, pinging some people before pre trading started, right. And you're looking at 25% up. It's like, did they buy that Bitcoin? They had to buy the Bitcoin because nobody's going to take that risk. So like, you know, you're looking at markets that trade within certain time frames. You have a 24/7 hour, 24 days a week, 724 hours a day, seven days a week global asset. Like walk us through kind of your understanding and at least to the extent you do have it, just the market structure from the authorized participants to the shares and like where things can get dislocated. I don't have that background, but it feels like it's not going to be clean long term as these things start to mature that we're talking about and demand increases. And so be curious if you guys have any thoughts on all that? Well, yeah, I mean, I don't know, Michael, it's funny like Larry and I actually had a conversation yesterday about that of and I'll get to that in a SEC. But I I woke up in the middle of the night thinking about this like I get I think back to the Microsoft, sorry the the Facebook IPO from 12 years ago or whatever it was. And and I don't know if you go back and look at a stock chart actually I could share the screen if you want and pull it up but you know basically well I I won't bother but but but if you look back at the the the Facebook IPO the thing kind of moon shot it up the first few hours and then bang the next three months absolutely got cut in half down 50% and it was the classic like well there you go it was too much hype going into it institution sold to retail sting craters And so you know having touched the stove like that and market over years you you get nervous when you see this hype and build up to this ETF and and whether it's going to be 40 billion and you know of inflows over how long will it be be and where will the price go. It it just naturally gets me nervous in the short run. But in the medium term we we look at kind of those flows we talked about and just how early we are in terms of global adoption like Jesse just talking about and just how easy the on ramps are. Now for your regular folk RIAA to do these portfolio construction analysis now to realize that better risk adjusted returns happened to your portfolio. If you get away from an old 6040 equity bonds and you start adding in Bitcoin and then and oh by the way Mr. Jones you can buy you know this ETF and and own some Bitcoin and have that portfolio like this just becomes this virtual positive feedback loop over the next 6 to 9 to 12 months of money coming in and and and those ETF forced to go and turn around and buy Bitcoin and and suddenly you just get this virtual feedback loop. So it feels highly probable that while there is some risk that this has gotten overhyped and people could get disappointed seven days from now because the money isn't as flowing in as fast. I do think that over 6 to 9 to 12 months, as Larry was saying earlier, the money is going to flow in and then we haven't even got into a Black Swan event, which again, we'll get into macro, I'm sure. But eventually you're going to have people running to inflation hedge assets when the money supply of the Fed begins flowing again. And Lori Logan, who I think is one of the Dallas Fed chairs, probably one of the most important people to listen to. She's the one who was the big architect around all of the programs from 2020 that the Fed used to go throw money in the system And here she is saying over the weekend this you know four days ago that it might be time to to stop with QT. She's seeing some of the issues in the repo market and reverse repo market. And so I'm being long winded but to land the plane we just see more high probability of positive catalyst for Bitcoin and flows of capital and macro backdrop that I think that you know as Marty's asking about to an inflection point. I think we will look back at this as a key inflection point and in the Zen philosophy too, I think we'll look back and say that Sam Bankman freed, we might have been one of the best blessings ever for Bitcoin because it began to teach the global markets about the difference between Bitcoin and crypto. And Gary Gensler and the SEC helped to kind of further educate that through processes like this. So let me pause there. But you know, I was excited. Let me add a few things Michael. So I think the job of these guys is to make the price of their product, you know, their ETF, track the price of the coin, you know, one for one with as little slippage as possible. And so I'm, I'm guessing I don't know this for a fact, but I'm just guessing based on how these things typically work that that they've got, you know, internal algorithms designed to kind of instantly buy as they get more flows in, they get more purchases, they attract money into their, you know, into their bucket. They literally have to instantaneously turn around and buy the coin. Because if they don't, you know, the coin does a God candle goes up 10,000, well then they're going to slip. They're not going to, you know, they're, you know, at the end of the year somebody's going to measure how they did against the coin and they don't want to have a lot of slippage if any. And so I think it's going to really be kind of one for one, they see, they see new flow in. They instantly buy coin. Where it gets interesting is, of course, they close down at 4:00 PM because the market shuts. And So what happens if a God candle happens overnight? Well, you know, everyone who's in it already participates, but you can't go buy the ETF, you know, in the middle of the night. And so, but that's fine. In the morning, the new price opens up and you want to bring new money in. Fine, bring it in and you're paying the higher price now. So I think that it'll actually be, you know, if they do it right, and I presume they will. And another thing, another two other comments I want to make. One is that some people say, well this is going to be paper Bitcoin. This, you know, look, we know who we're dealing with here and I've dealt with the gold guys for 30 years, so I can, I know how good they are at screwing around with this shit. But I think that in this particular case they're going to be auditors involved. And so for these people to, you know take money in and not buy the coin IE create paper Bitcoin I think is going to be a problem unless they can find a corrupt auditor which is possible but I wouldn't rate it as highly likely. So I I think that they're going to, they're actually going to it's not going to be paper Bitcoin and there's nothing in the filings and all that. And and so I want to move to the GLD which is the gold ETF which is very similar to these things and and create a lot of problems over in the gold space. But you know in that particular ETF filing, there are all kinds of outs where they could have custodians and sub custodians, they could buy paper gold, they could have futures contracts. And of course one of the things that a lot of us who looked at that thing said is these guys are buying paper gold from Lehman Brothers and if Lehman Brothers fails, the gold's not going to get delivered. And these don't have any of that language in the ETF filing. So I think they've actually got to legitimately buy the coins. Final point, Nikko on Twitter had it this morning, a really great chart and I retweeted it. I don't know if you guys have the ability to pull it up, but it shows basically when the gold ETF was approved in 2004 and then what happened to the gold price between 2004 and 2011? And it was pretty substantial. You know, the the appreciation in gold. So, you know, people weren't going out and buying gold coins. That was a pain in the ass in the early 2000s. You know, to go to your, I mean, the people just didn't do it. But suddenly, you know, ETF arrives, you can buy a gold proxy. Turns out it was quite flawed, but you can still buy a gold proxy. There you go. And you know, look at that, right. What was that November of 2004, the first, you know, GLDETF comes out boom. And so you know, will this repeat exactly? Probably not. But I think the trend is, is pretty indicative of what's going on. So we're, you know, we're, we're incredibly pulled up on this whole thing. I mean and you know, Sailor is too, right. I mean he's the one of the smartest guys, if not the smartest guy in the space. And he just said, you know folks, this is a once in a generation opportunity to front run a lot of money that that you know, wants to own the ship but can't because of the structure. Your typical RIAA cannot own Bitcoin or could not own Bitcoin until today. And so that's that's really, that's the news story here and I think we're now in uncharted waters And you know, Samson Mao says he thinks it's going to 1,000,000 bucks. I mean who am I to say he's not right? I mean, you know, I mean, I'm not sure, I bet on it for sure, but I mean obviously I think it's getting to a million eventually, but what's the time frame? I don't know, it could be faster than we think. So those are kind of my thoughts on how it's working. And anchoring back to the analog of Facebook's IPO that you explained, Dave like that's people have been calling the ETF launch the IPO moment for Bitcoin. But like we all know and there's exchanges that trade 24/7 365. Like the difference here is that Facebook going public has a bunch of insiders that want to liquidate some of their stock to monetize all the work they put in for for many years. And I think this is a different animal in the sense that everybody that's bought in has bought in just because because of what Larry just explained that you have the chance of front run immense amounts of capital. And I I don't think there's dynamics of like an IPO launch insider's dump is going to play out and things are going to get really weird. Yeah, it's a great point Marty, that that in that case of of Facebook you had institutions selling to retail, but then the mom and pop got held holding the bag. Now look to be clear, Facebook went down 50% in the next three months. It was one of the most phenomenal buying opportunities. It's up literally like 100 X from there and and so you know I I think that that's similar thing I I'm just saying could play out in the short run where you know I think you're kind of it just feels like the market's broadly in the last two months since the Halloween bottom has had a little levered speculator citadel type trend following investor pop in the markets. Right. And and ignoring now global economy And so I'm just saying that you know and partly because I'm hoping I'd I'd actually like to see Bitcoin settle back in and then be able to keep adding and just buying more Now like you guys we're always dollar cost averaging and ultimately it won't matter we'll look back someday on these prices they got what a bargain this was at 48,000. But I think you're right Marty to agree that the irony is we're selling a mom and pop retail on that Facebook IPO. This is the exact opposite. This is now the IPO of Bitcoin as you're saying. But for the institutions now to start getting involved and all of us that have been here for a while now you know we're we're kind of riding that way. We front random as Larry's saying. So yeah I this is in in general let me be clear on the medium to longer term like as Larry said we couldn't be more bullish. I mean this is this is really a huge catalyst to allow anyone in the world to buy it and the beauty of this asset class is anyone in the world can buy it so long as you have a mobile phone. And one last final point this guy was just listening to someone overnight was making this point that you know if 50% of the world is supposed to have CBDC's thrown upon them in the next year. Again in that spirit of that Zen philosophy of if same bank and freed might have been ended up being the best thing that happened to Bitcoin to to to create that delineation between crypto and Bitcoin here maybe these CBDC's as this gentleman was pointing out each creates a a a tutelage for people in the world to understand how to trade digital cash and therefore the eventual run away from Fiat currencies to Bitcoin become that much easier that they're doing a favor for Bitcoin ultimately by introducing CBDC. So you know, again, I don't want to get too philosophical of that, but but sometimes the things that you think are so bad aren't they're actually they're actually really good. And that. I mean, I just saw a stat on Twitter or an hour into the trading day, there's $1.7 billion of volume across these 11 ETFs. How many? How many new Bitcoin? Not maybe not Bitcoiners as we would define them as people holding their own keys, but how many people, new people have material exposure over $10,000 to Bitcoin today? Yeah. I don't believe. Did we just add? Looks like there's been 600,600,000,000 billion in or or million in no billion in in GBTC as well, right? Yeah. No counted in that. So there was an interesting tweet the other day that said can you say you're early if you if you got in after the ETF. You know we joke around being so early I think that would like to your crossing the chasm point it's kind of like this is it's it's a mainstream it's as mainstream as you can get from like. Yeah, it's absolutely a new a new era, but but yeah, to to to that crossing the chasm point. Weirdly I I still think that that is way in the future for us. We're still in, you know based on the numbers I was talking about firmly in the innovators stage. It just feels like we've come so far 'cause we have but you know the next 15 years will be going through the the the steep part of the S curve the adoption S curve and and Larry I was, I was just reflecting on you know the the chart you brought up about about gold was an amazing one to show the power of adding a a channel of buying power to an asset. But the the you know the the big difference you've already pointed out and done a great job of highlighting how bitcoin's more auditable and that you know creates this barrier to to the paper Bitcoin problem. But on top of that gold is has kind of historically been the domain of nation states right. Like it's it has such a long history that it has become so centralized over time and Bitcoin you know doesn't have any nation states hoarding it at all yet and so it's it's kind of hard to you know who has the authority to to meddle in a paper gold market and and muddy the waters really only nation states are are are able to do that and get away with it I think or you know with with the blessing of nation states at least and there's no in order to muddy the waters you have to have you have to control some of the supply. Or at least be a. Player in that market and there there's no nation state player in Bitcoin yet, so I think that's an additional barrier to. Effectively I would agree with that. Yeah, I would agree with that. I mean I would also assume that the on chain analytics people will be able to see and figure out. I mean look, you know, we just figured out earlier there's all, you know the the Black Rock Trust is already to date, we're going to be open a couple hours now has already bought $400 million worth of Bitcoin. You know you can't hide that that's you know there's got to be some on chain transactions going on. Somebody's going to be able to figure out where they are now they can kind of keep adding addresses and doing different stuff and I'm sure they will try and mask what they're doing as much as they can. But, you know, there's a bunch of great people who do on chain analytics that are going to be able to, I think, look through and see some of this shit. And you can never do that with gold. I mean it's the gold is just completely opaque and and frankly, I think a lot of people, you know, a lot of the nation stays lie about the gold. I mean, I think, you know, the United States is supposed to have 261 million oz or 8133 tons. And I don't think we do. I mean, Ron Paul told me personally he's pretty sure that Fort Knox is empty. So and I, you know, I, I I can't dispute that. So you know, yeah, this is a much better mechanism all around. Can we talk about Franklin Templeton putting laser eyes on Benjamin Franklin? Is that does that mean we? Does that mean we won? Or like what is? Close. There's so many great things that are coming out of this. So the other one I love is of the Valkyrie guys deciding to name their checker symbols Burr. I mean, how great is that about trolling these guys? You know, there's just a lot of, there's a lot of good stuff. And then, of course, you know, yesterday's debacle. How about SEC nodding have not having a 2FA you know check on their on their website I mean. It's poetic. It's poetic. It's beautifully poetic. It's just clown world all over the place. And yeah, maybe it's a good chance to move into kind of the other side of the macro piece, which David and I are writing our fourth quarter letter about. Thanks for tuning in. If you're interested in exploring any of these topics further, or want to learn more about how we can help you secure a new or existing Bitcoin allocation, get in touch with our team at on rampbitcoin.com. We look forward to supporting you on your Bitcoin journey. The December numbers just came out and the December U.S. Federal deficit is 20%, up 20% year over year. So for the quarter ended December the US ran a 500 round numbers, 510 I think $500 billion deficit and and the first quarter is typically small. So that would imply compared to the other. So that would imply that you know for the year or next year we're going to be over 2 trillion. We were 17 last year would have been more but the student debt thing got turned around. But anyway you know $2 trillion deficit in a theoretically healthy economy, you know with 34 trillion of debt, you know they they we think that in our letter talks about this. We think that what happened last week or I should say maybe not two weeks ago is before you know Powell pivoted on the 13th. But before that, you know the the US Treasury bond melted down 20% in September, October and went over the 10 year, went over 5%. And we think that that set off alarm bells and that's what led to them all coming out and say no, no, no, we're probably done with this rate hike cycle and it brought the 10 year back in and it created liquidity in a lot of areas which they needed to do because you know something was breaking. And our view is they're right on the edge of something breaking and we don't know when it will formally break and break in size. But you know we Silicon Valley Bank was an example of something breaking. They stuffed that one back in the can, but they're going to, you know something is going to break here. And if you read you know the Zero Hedge premium stuff I mean you know as David was alluding to you know Lori Logan and and the basis trade and you know there's there's a lot it's it's it's pretty complicated stuff but there's a lot of there are a lot of indicators that would suggest that the monetary plumbing is getting really messed up and that things are quite tight and that they're already starting to loosen. And I'm, I was surprised, we were surprised by this morning CPI report. We thought they'd have it rigged to come in low and it didn't it kind of came in slightly hot and that's not going to help them. But we think we think that they they don't want to pivot because Powell doesn't want to be Arthur Burns. But we think they're actually being forced to pivot because of the the US federal government interest expense and how much of the budget it's chewing up. If they don't get those short term rates down out of that 5% range, you know they're they're going to, they're going to run into a complete, you know, bond market disaster. And so our view is that they will declare whether they have it or not, they're going to declare victory on inflation and start you know unwinding QT and or dropping interest rates even though they say they're not. You know, they also said they weren't going to, they weren't even thinking about, thinking about raising and they said inflation was transitory. And you know, they're they consistently lie and are wrong. And you know at the end of the day, their number one mandate is keeping the system functioning. And it seems to us that there are a lot of clues that suggest that the system is close to not functioning and and by the way, gold and Bitcoin smell it, right. I mean that's why Bitcoin was up 150 last year. Gold was up 13 or 14% last year. I mean you know in in a in a very negative real interest rate environment, you know I mean I'm sorry in a in a in a positive real interest rate environment or close to positive real interest rate environment where they've really raised aggressively. You know these two monetary, sound monetary assets have done pretty well. And we we think that's only set to continue and it's you know to us it's a matter of when not if and and we think the win is probably sometime in this year 2024. I ran the left side of the bell curve analysis last week and in but at the end of 2008 the ratio of national debt and two money stock was 1.29 and today it's 1.63. So we've expanded the debt way more than we have the monetary base. And as Parker Lewis likes to say, there's too much debt and not enough dollars. So you just think again left side of the bell curve looking at that ratio, they're going to have to revert back to the mean by expanding the monetary base? Yeah, this is this is Lynn's famous chart. That's just you've got to have the monetary base go up in in concert with the debt or else the whole thing blows up. You know, so it's it's it's coming and you know that's that's enormous, that's a macro event that's enormously positive for sound money assets, just enormously positive. And but they've held, they've held it off. I mean, I and I give them credit. I thought it was all over with Silicon Valley Bank and they they managed to stuff that one back in the can. But if and when a crisis hits and they have to unleash the monetary spigot that will ensure that Fed will be Arthur Burns in in this. Oh, absolutely. There's no question. That's where that's where they're headed. Although, you know, there are some, I mean gunlock and others who say we could get some low inflation prints. I mean, David has done the research and pointed out that, you know, some of the housing stuff has come in a lot. I mean, the food was a problem in today's report, but the housing and other things have have come gotten a lot softer. And honestly, I mean, the difficulty in navigating all of this is we're dealing with numbers that are, you know, they're cooked. I mean that are, you know, we're dealing. I mean they they lie about all this shit. So it's fuzzy at Beth, right? You know, housing is 38% of the housing and rent owner's equivalent rent is just like 38% of the CPI. And just looking at kind of where those numbers are trending here over the next few years, few months because of the lag effects like we're definitely good despite today's surprise of CPI. The number is going to keep working its way down it it most most highly probable that it will play out that way. And so you know but you know I I think that we're talking about as more just that bigger issue. I mean like I I think probably the there's there's some black Swans out there that no one in the world even none of us are even thinking about that could pop up. But I think the biggest thing that I'm hearing that, you know, a lot of major Wall Street banks worry about is when does one of these auction, treasury auction things really go afoul And and and then suddenly you get what we witnessed kind of early fall this year with the 10 year moving toward 5%. When do you see that happening throughout the curve, even in the T-bills, and suddenly now people start losing real faith in the bond market again? That's why I think the CTF is a big deal because I think then it's going to be really easy for the RIA to say maybe you should go buy some of that Bitcoin ETF Mr. Jones and and and and with with 2% of your bonds and and we'll see just an easy flow out that that's probably when the treasury will be mad as hell that Gensler allowed these on ramps to happen so easily so. Hey, Larry. And you mentioned cooking the numbers. The one of the stats that rung out to me I saw earlier in the week was from Peter St. Ong about why are GDP like we keep being confounded about? Like what? What's happening? Why are the numbers what they are. It doesn't make sense and like anecdotal references. And he tweeted GDP and jobs to find slow down predictions. Question mark because most new jobs 56% last year were disguised as government spending in in New York and Chicago or Illinois. It was 113% in Illinois and 50 or 121% in New York. So all the economies shrinking, you know, government spending, government expenditures. And so when I heard that early in the week, it was a little, it's kind of scary in the sense of like you're at this like tail end of this cycle where the government is basically taking up over 100% of jobs in these two states. And how many are below that right on that cusp. But you just threw out those two numbers. Yeah. And the government has never been a bigger percentage of the economy except World War 2 where it was a huge percent. But and that's that'll be in our quarterly report as well which we're in the process of finishing up. But you know one of the things that we found interesting and people wonder what the biggest surprise to us last year was the stock market held together and the GDP held together kind of grew at I don't know call it A2, 7% rate annualized. And and the thing that we found a chart that we put in our report that we thought was very interesting which shows that you know in COVID the the spending kind of took a real quantum jump up. You know government spending was in the mid fours and went to 6 plus and seven actually in one year a trillion dollars. We're talking about U.S. Federal government spending crisis has passed by a couple of years and yet we've only come down from that peak of 7 to 6.1. So you know, what's really keeping the economy going is, you know, bionomics and this inflation control plan and all these, you know, all these government programs that they're out there spending on and money they're sending around everywhere. And so and of course they're doing it all with that. You know, they don't have that money. They're just, you know we're borrowing it. So you know we've kind of got a a fake economy and and fake GDP numbers based on you know, the the borrowing and you know it it's, I mean something's got to give, right. Either they've, they've got to stop borrowing so much and try and close that deficit or you know or or worse things will happen in terms of you know, people will lose faith in the currency. I mean the the way to, to go back to the inflation point, you know, the dollar has been very weak and understandably so because of, you know, this tilt toward easing. And I think that's going to continue. And where I think it all becomes relevant is eventually the dollar will weaken enough that the dollar price of oil will go back up again. You know, it'll be kind of hanging around in this 80 range, 7080 range. And when that starts to happen that that'll be the beginning of the Next up wave in inflation. But that might be, you know, three months, six months, nine months from now, who knows. And the other, the final point would be that it's an election year and I saw somebody tweet out, I don't know how accurate it was. It could be wrong. But there was actually discussion going on in Washington DC about some kind of a tax break this year in an election year to try and grease the skids for the like, which which it would just be shocking to me. I mean they they absolutely, positively need to get more fiscally responsible and yet you see almost nothing in that direction. And of course they kicked the can on the on the whole debt ceiling. You know, it doesn't have to get addressed now until January of 2025. S you know, they can kind of do whatever they want between now and then. And my my sense is they will. And that's why I think a deficit this year of 2 trillion, that's the low end of the range. I think it could easily be 222426, maybe even three who knows. But you know in an in an election year, they're going to pull out all the stops, right? And if we keep the pace? Of Q 4/20/23, it could hit 38 trillion by 2020. Well that's that's exactly right. That's that's another thing we discovered and I wish somebody, maybe somebody smarter than we are in terms of government accounting, there might be some inter government accounts but you know they had a deficit last year of 1.7 trillion. But if you look at the debt at the beginning of the year and you look at the debt at the end of the year, you know the difference is more like 2.5. So there's, you know, there's something like 678 trillion, $800 billion. It's not, I mean the debts going up, the deficits, either the deficit's under reported or there's some kind of funny accounting going on. But yeah, I mean and if you look at the the OMB reports, I mean they were saying maybe we'd get to 3840 trillion dollars in 2027 or something. Well, hell no. We're going to, as you point out, Marty, we're going to be there next year. We're going to be at the end of next year. We'll be at 38 probably and all of this stuff manifests. Manifests itself in the real world like you're amiss to not talk about like the degradation of like products and services in society. We talk a lot about it here and other individuals. But you can see material effects of like products and services being delivered and the the most recent. It's not funny but it it kind of isn't like complex systems. This was it. Delta the airplane like the. They're blowing up. Yeah, they're they're, they're falling apart, right. Yeah, exactly. And. I think another. Landmine from the macro backdrop that we haven't discussed yet, it's just the geopolitical situation in the world, what's going on in the Red Sea right now. A lot of the BRICS countries becoming emboldened and sort of banding together, not being happy with US foreign policy. You have the Red Sea coalition, which is a Western LED coalition in the Red Sea that has no allies that are actually in countries that border the Red Sea and I think the only one that's involved may be Oman. I could be wrong, but we're we're really expanding, trying to expand our influence and doing it pretty sloppily right now. And you can see that situation, the election year, and the geopolitical situation forming for a perfect storm of a shit show that could just really like the US and the S Oh, absolutely. Yeah. No. And it's. It's interesting. Everyone's kind of ignoring all that stuff, right? It all that's not even on the, you know, the radar screen right now for a lot of people. Everyone's thinking about just the election and the economy. And yeah, we could, we could easily have a Black Swan in some other country or or at a larger level. Interestingly, China, though, has been having a lot of troubles and I saw some data that shows that they're printing like crazy too. I mean, in fact, I think it was Preston who had a really good chart on Global M2 or maybe it was incrementum that showed that, you know, in spite of the Fed tightening and and the USM two actually declining at a global level, it really hasn't dipped all that much. And and this isn't uncommon, I mean all these central banks like one one guy will get tighter and then the other guys will loosen the compensate for it, right. And that's not uncommon. Yeah. And I keep coming. Back to how the the history of rate height cycles they you know, they they hike, they hike, they hike, they pause and then you know ten months after the the last hike they start cutting and everybody is excited that oh OK great we're going to we're going to see relief. Now markets will boom, but if they tend to start cutting because they know that some that the system can't take it anymore, you know they're cutting. Because things are broken and very bad and they've generally always gone too far. And yeah, David's got a great chart on this. I don't know, maybe we can pull it up. It shows. Share. Let me share my screen. I. Know Is this working guys? Can you see it this Bloomberg chart Logan's got? It we're still seeing it. There you go. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, it's exactly. That point Jesse just made that this is going back to 50 years, right? The white line is the federal funds rate. The red shades are recessions going back to 1970. Here we put in the blue line, the SP500 and gold as the sound money proxy here over 50 years. And the key thing to look at is look at the white line that looked from left to right going back to the 70s. Every time they Jack the federal funds rate, invariably there's a pause at the top. And so if we look at, yeah, good. You can just see the arrow here like like look at, I mean let's just stop here kind of in in 99 two thousand, right when they raised rates in late 99, two thousand, then there's a pause and then the recession lag effect kicks in at the higher rates and the stock market begins to break kind of in the later phases of the pause. That same thing happened with Bernanke here in O4 trying to pop the housing bubble. He paused for a year. Stock market had to blow off top before then the recession kicks in, the stock market falls over and then they have to cut rates rapidly to try and you know, steady the economy and this levered fragile economy. And I think that even happened here in in 1817 and 18 with Bernay Powell takes the baton from Yellen as the Fed chair. He tries to, you know end some of this shenanigans and pauses. But then everything was breaking down in the repo market. We had the December of 18 stock market collapse and they they stop that and then obviously COVID happened. But look here, I mean here's this rapid increase of the last year and change and and here's our pause and yet the stock market's marching on the economy, ignoring all sorts of geopolitical risk. But you know, our view is that there's a definitely a high probability of maybe the soft landing thing doesn't play out like Yellen's been skating with the Stanley Cup on and recession ensues, stock market begins to collapse and then all your Luke Roman theory of now deficits really expand and the Fed is forced to kind of really not only cut rates but do a lot more QE. Here we go again. I mean that that's that macro catalyst we were talking about that could absolutely begin to moon shot Bitcoin rapidly at that point in time. But yeah, I think go ahead and then you get the one of those. Pauses. Gold did. Extremely well. And gold was the proxy for Bitcoin in the olden days, right? And and. You know that that would cause the repeat of the 70s, the the inflation spike and then and then it seems like it's it's coming down. Oh, turns out you got to do a lot of stimulus and then you have an even bigger second wave of inflation. No, that's exactly right. They're. Always behind the curve. And they, you know, they really, they really don't know what they're doing. And This is why, you know, just we should never have had a central bank. I mean they, you know, they started off, they blew a bubble, they financed World War One. You know, we had this, the mini depression of the 20 of 1920 and we had the big depression of 29. I mean it's just, and these guys just do it over and over again. I mean, I, you know, I tweeted a week ago, you know, Bernanke, you know, pours gasoline on his neighbor's house and then lights it on fire and then calls the fire department and writes a book and claims he's the hero with the courage to act. I mean, you know, what the what the fuck? I mean, you know, I mean these guys just they just keep doing it over and over and over again, which actually that was interesting. In the last Powell press conference, he said something I thought was interesting where he said, you know, that they were willing to start cutting before inflation, headline inflation got to 2% because there's a lag effect. And it's like the first time I've ever heard him, you know, talk about a lag effect. And then, you know, it implied that maybe he's thinking of trying to get ahead of this curve knowing what's coming. But we'll see. It's he does not want to be perceived as burns. And yet I I don't really see how he can avoid it. I mean the reason we're all so comfortable in our investment thesis over a longer time frame is just that the math is, is what it is And you know one can't continue to grow the debts in excess of the underlying money supply without having eventually you hit a hard wall. And so as a result we know with you know as as Foss used to say or says you know it's you know, Fiat debasement, it's 100% certainty, it's just how much and what time frame. So it's coming and you know, the good news is, you know we'll have $1,000,000 Bitcoin. You know, the bad news is we might also have $70.00 gasoline. We'll have to see. Larry, how do you perceive? Or how do you, how does your guys network perceive what's happening? You know, we know some friends mutually that introduced us and you guys made it through and you know, I think being recognizing gold value early helped with that. But just curious, kind of like the scene up in Boston, the Northeast, you guys been around the the yeah. It's you. Know it's kind of. Amazing how well Fiat has treated so many people. I mean David's got a brother who has a very Fiat job, very high high level position and you know it Fiat's been really good to a lot of people And so they don't really want to recognize or or you know, that they might be wrong or that they might be on the wrong side of this trade it it kind of threatens their worldview. We do have one SMA client who was a Fiat guy I used to work with in the venture business and they went off and he did extremely well and he's he's probably worth half a billion dollars and he gets it. He he completely gets it. But I would say he's the exception, not the rule. I think the rule, you know, in the neighborhoods that David and I live with, the people our kids played sports with, etcetera, is that, you know, what are you guys talking about? You know, everything's great. You know, we're rich. We just bought a new Land Rover. You know, we make a ton of money but it's it's all going to change. You know it's the first shall be last is is what I think and can't happen soon enough from my point of view. It's been a it's been a long time coming. I mean, as you guys all know I've been fighting this battle long before Bitcoin existed. So which gives me the perspective to know that we are right and to also understand that there are times when it's a shitty battle to be fighting. You know, And you know, I've been pleasantly surprised with the Bitcoin price this year. And you know, we have Bitcoin in the fund. We have Bitcoin companies in the fund. I I'm personally half my half my personal assets are in Bitcoin, but the other half are in gold and silver. And I must admit, the gold and silverside is driving me nuts. You know it's like come on guys, let's let's get going here. And and Dave and I were, Dave and I were discussing this yesterday. I mean there's no doubt that Bitcoin is taking some of the shine away from gold and silver. I mean, gold and silver market's about $13 trillion, but really only probably 3 or 4 trillion of that is tradable cause a lot of it's on, you know, women's necks and jewelry in India and China and maybe 25% of it's in central banks. That's not, you know, they're adding, but they're not. They're not selling, but they're that's not up for sale in any given day. So let's call it $4 trillion on any given day of tradeable gold coins and bullion in the world. You know, absent the paper and you know, at the margin, bitcoin's a trillion dollars of the total market cap. And you know, they're young people, They're not buying any gold. They're buying Bitcoin instead. So while I think they will both appreciate, you know as you guys have heard me say there's no doubt Bitcoin's the much faster horse and I think I think gold will eventually you know become much less important in the entire sound money trade. But I also think that with the central banks doing what they're doing and they're buying and and the and the potential for a reset occurring which I think is reasonably high that the those people will probably try to reset the gold before they try to reset the Bitcoin. Did you know one of the most? Exciting points of all this. We touched on it a little bit is Wall Street's going to get a nice surprise in that they may think they get their bearings of the next couple and and everybody globally the next, let's call it 90 days. Jesse's version of the Super Bowl is, you know, set to happen, I think right now, like April 16th or whatever. And. You're just going to get. Smacked in the face with this supply shock and the flexibility is going to come from that. I don't think they're prepared for. Yeah, I think that's. Super Bowl Yeah, Imagine what? Happens if. We wake up one day and Bitcoin's $300,000, I mean, you know, the think of the FOMO that's, you know, that's going to exist. And I mean, you know, now, now you're a wealthy human being anywhere in the world and somebody says, you know, where are you on Bitcoin? I mean, you got to seriously start to think about it, right? I I joke around that when. That happens. We it's obviously ties in our product and thesis, but I think people throw their keys out of the window, they become so nuclear, they're like, Oh my God, get this amount of capital out of anything that I can actually touch. I don't think we're prepared for it. When that price gets to where it is, the amount of like it's going to be a very different world, 300 KBTC. When you say throw the keys out, what do? You what do you mean in other words, they're going to be just a ton of buyers coming into it or no, I mean like right now we. Sit on, I would say fairly confident in our custody situation. We feel good. Like wherever it is solid, when that price hits 90 K will be one thing but $300,000 I don't think our brains when he thinks about like like in my personal setup or thinking about I was talking yesterday, I had a lot of conversations was about even if I lost it all right now I feel like I can make it back like I can make the money back. Would you imagine like a 10X from here and you lose all of that? You're like, I can't ever make this back like this is there's no coming back from, you know, and that reality of like, well, what do you do with the asset? It's just a different, like, calculus on how you protect something versus how we think about it today. I don't think it's actually just like priced into anybody, let alone people that have been looking at the asset for 10 years, let alone the future buyers. It's just a different world. It's the gravity will completely change AT300K, basically. Yeah, I mean, it's hard to. It's you. Know thinking about how far it can go. I mean and I I love sailors coming you know it's going up forever Laura and I think he's right but I mean to me I can see a couple 100,000 that that's clearly you know within my I mean that's like to me that's falling off a log we get there in whatever time frame but we'll get there and I can actually see a million after that. I I just don't know I mean I you know I've seen 50 million a coin and Carlos sorry I said that I've seen 10/20 you know who knows it's it's nuts right you just you don't really know. Well, I was going to say what one one data. Point we've looked at historically is in the late 1970s, call it 7980 after that whole inflationary and chaotic period of the 70s, you know you had global sound money assets, gold and silver at that time. If we just isolated those two, it basically got to high single digits as a percentage of global financial assets. And so if you take gold, silver and Bitcoin today and say, OK, what percentage of global financial assets are those? We're we're under 1%. And and so again, in the world in the 1970s, you only had 35% debt to GDP. You didn't have 125% like you do today that this this is a much more fragile system that now than it was then. And so, you know, when we do the math on that and say, OK, well, what if you just went back to 8% of global financial assets on Bitcoin, gold and silver? You know, the it's pretty easy to get the prices like 405 hundred thousand a coin and Bitcoin and having gold and silver go a hell of a lot higher as well. But that's where that math's pretty easy to see if if over the next five years. I think the one thing that people have to remember is. I think we, we live in a microwave world where we're used to having our food in 15 seconds. And I think people think, well, OK, Bitcoin will be at 400,000 by December of this year. But these things take time. And you know, Michael, you're asking about the Boston crowd and and I'd say, you know what I would say that the soccer mom, soccer dad test that I see is everyone's in this Fiat world. Like Larry's saying, like hey, the stock market works. These, these 12 central bankers seem to have the market. What what's the Fed going to do to save us this time And it and it scares the hell out of all of us because we know we've studied this in financial history enough to know like God, this is this is not going to end well. But I think what happens is Jeremy Grantham, a great value investor up here in Boston has pointed out that commodities are where the great fortunes are made. And and Bitcoin is a commodity and it's the scarcest commodity in the world. And if if you knew and if you just have an 8 year patient low time preference horizon, you you'll make fortunes here. Given this backdrop of where we are as a percentage of global financial assets, these inflows that are coming, how commodities work, what the global central banks are going to have to do to support the global economy, the demographic challenges with baby boomers maturing, things like that. You can't kick the can much anymore. And so like this to us seems just like the highest probability like I can't imagine on any other asset outperforming Bitcoin over the next 10 years or even maybe five years than than this asset class given the scarcity properties and and given that backdrop. So like I I think everyone to answer your question Michael is just you know too caught up in their stock market 40 year old model world of of the feds got your back and rates come down but they're they're not watching all these other trends that that we're all early on it's amazing. To me. How? How? Well, you know, the average investor has been trained to buy the dip because in 40 years of deflation, it basically has always worked. And you know, that's the advantage of being 66 and you see a bunch of cycles and it's as if bear markets have been outlawed or something. Bear markets and stocks have been outlawed, you know what I mean? And that's just not realistic. I mean, you know, you're going to have labor cost pressures, You're going to have falling margins, you're going to have falling demand and you're going to have tighter money and you're going to have and you're going to have better alternatives. I mean, I I know many wealthy people who are like why do I need to mess with the stock market? I can buy a one month treasury and get 5 percent, 5%'s a nice yield on all the money I've got. So, and by the way, I think, I think that 5%'s going to go higher and I think the tenure's going to go higher. I mean, I think the big, the other big macro thing we haven't really discussed, but you know, we feel it very strong is that we are no longer in a deflationary world. We're just not, I mean there are deflationary aspects of the world as Chuck Booth points out, the technology and so forth. But but right now we've under invested in real stuff for 40 years and real stuff is about to come back with a vengeance. And so you know that's going to, that's going to change what works in the stock market. I mean the stock market in the 70s was a bad place to be. The the bond market in the 70s was a terrible place to be. I mean, Henry Kaufman called them certificates of confiscation. And you know, we think this is the 70s on steroids. So you know, to me, the biggest decision everybody's got to make right now is, is they look at their asset allocation, you know, how much they want in stocks, how much they want in bonds and then how much they want and what we consider sound money assets. And you know, we talk to people all the time that have nothing in the sound money asset bucket and we scream at them that they're idiots. And of course, you know we've got 100% in the sound money you know, bucket and and probably we're idiots too for being for being so overweight in one category. But we believe what we believe and you know it's what's that irresponsibly long in a Business School sense we're extremely irresponsibly long. My HBS professors would would criticize me massively, but you know what I I mean, I just don't give a fuck anymore. He probably should buy some Bitcoin just in. Case it catches on, Yeah, well. David and I were at a macro conference up there. And I mean it's, you know, you want to talk about, you want to be the turd in the punch bowl. You just talk about Bitcoin or you talk about a sovereign debt crisis. I mean, you got to remember. I mean and that's what leaves these people vulnerable, by the way. You got to remember just how fat, happy and stupid all these Fiat masters are. I mean, they think they're geniuses. They just, they think they're absolute geniuses And and and to be fair, they have been, I mean, they've crushed us. I mean it's, you know, playing that game has been an extremely lucrative game to play, but history would suggest that things are changing. So that's that's. That's how we see it. They're changing. And they're changing rapidly. Right now, ETF is here, Marty says. We're gonna win. Right, Marty. Oh, we're gonna win. He's let me just look at the state. There are days you know. There there are days. They're weeks. They're months sometimes during the bear markets where where your spirits get low sometimes it doesn't always feel fun. I mean, you know, it's really nice to be at this landmark where this ETF got approved, but you know, kind of the run up to it, it was just like, oh, really? Are you not? We're gonna have to go through all this shit again. Yeah, it's behind us now. Now we're in the winning. Phase We're always winning. Dave and Larry, it's. Been a pleasure. I wish we had more than an hour to talk, but likewise. It was great to have you 2 on today. Momentous day whether you think getting Bitcoin exposure be the ETF is right or wrong, there's nothing you can do about it. It's in the world now. People are going to buy it and it seems like there's a lot of people buying it right now. Or probably it's a good thing there's there's no. Way it's there's no way it's anything but a good thing it it does open the the door to possible games but I I think it'll be harder to game this than it is was to game gold and so I think that's a good thing. Awesome. Great. Thanks. Jenny Thing. Thanks guys. Good to be here. Yeah, fantastic. Dave and Larry, thanks for for joining us. Let's do this again when the when the crisis really hits. Yes. Yeah. That'll that'll happen and some rivets going to pop and it's going to be you know March of 2020 or 2019 all over again. You you know it's coming. We just don't know when we'll talk about whatever acronym. They come up with to plug the hole. Yeah, I'm sure they've got a few figured. Out. Yeah, BTFP 2. Yeah, exactly. Thanks guys. People see. You all thanks guys. All right. See you guys next week.
Transcript source: fountain