The Last Trade E035: The Bitcoin Heritage Blueprint with Matt McClintock

Before we get into the episode, a quick reminder that this podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes only and nothing should be construed as investment or legal advice. If you are enjoying On RAMP media content, please like subscribe and share as it goes a long way in helping others find the signal through the noise. Now for a word from on RAMP. On RAMP is a Bitcoin asset management platform built on multi institution custody leveraging our partnership with Bit Go and their 10 plus year track record in securing assets and Coincover the premier digital asset risk mitigation company. On Ramp's multi institution Custody is a segregated institutional grade vault requiring two of three institutions at any point in time to sign once a client's unique permissions have been met at on RAMP We understand that your Bitcoin journey is a multi generational pursuit catalyzed by the ideals of perseverance, aspiration and legacy. That's why we're proud to introduce on RAMP Heritage, a suite of private client services dedicated to ensuring your Bitcoin legacy is preserved and passed on, embodying the true essence of wealth that goes beyond mere numbers. If you would like to learn more, please schedule a consultation. As we prepare for the Bitcoin having and the next wave of global adoption of this nascent and growing asset class, we are halving all annual maintenance fees for clients that secure their wealth before the next Bitcoin epoch. What you're telling me is that music is about to stop, and we're going to be left holding the biggest bag of odorous extra ever assembled in the history of governors 1974198792972000. And whatever we want to call this. It's all just the same thing over and over. We can't help ourselves. I say when we sell. Hey, OK, I say when we sell. Jesse, it's nice to have you this week. You know, I I thought it'd be fun to come back on the show. We need you, Michael and I were Soul is the first three person last trade episode we ever did. Well, I won't. I won't leave you guys hanging this week or next week or the week after. No. Well, thank you. And it's very important that you're here this week because we have a repeat guest and Matt Mcclintock from Bespoke. Matt, welcome back to the show. Thank you guys. Thanks for having me back. And as Michael was saying after our first episode that we recorded with you a few months ago, many months ago now, at this point, there was a lot of very interested listeners who were enthralled with what you were saying and your perspective on how to protect Bitcoin wealth and pass it on to your family. We figured this would be a good time to get you back on the show, to just continue that conversation about estate planning as a bitcoiner and the things to to look out for. Michael, I don't know if you want to add any more context to this. No, I think that's exactly it. I think there's there's two parts. The world's you know moving so fast and now we have an ETF approval and obviously Matt lives in world with his peers in the space and you know hearing the interest and how it's kind of the windows shifting now in that area of the market. And then obviously the goal posts are moving can continuously when it comes to regulation and jurisdictional looking at the US and different landscapes and we're we're seeing you know we announced last week a partnership in the Middle East region with a firm called Coin Meta and just the like movement of mine share and also capital into that region for whether it's mining or just people building in there instead of just thought it'd be a great conversation to have and hear more. And there's so many actual things that I think everyone knows inherently they kind of have to do when it comes to protecting wealth and thinking about how do you make it seamless for your loved ones to at least absorb it if something happens to you. And we all are young and feel like mortality is far away but the reality is it's right around the corner sometimes. And so I think just knowing these things and having a framework is really helpful for from our our audience perspective and we talked about it before, the POD is like one of the most actionable kind of like inquisitive things. Post the POD, we had texts and messages and I saw group threads from folks that were like, hey, we should really think about this. You know, general 35 and 40 year old men just realizing again that we're not going to go anywhere. But the reality is you have kids and you have you know, grandkids maybe and everybody did all this work and spend all this time away from their family to build the wealth. And it's really important to like think about how do you like, pass it on. So really excited for you to spend your time. It's very important. Matt's a busy man. You know, he gets sometimes hard to get him on a call, but I would appreciate him taking time to to jump on with us and share all the wisdom he's learned. Well, I mean, I'm, I'm super humbled and honored to have the opportunity to come back and and share with you guys. I'm, I'm encouraged by the level of interest that the listeners of God have demonstrated. I mean, obviously I think this. Is a super important. Topic I wouldn't have dedicated my career to it. I mean I do feel really strongly that Bitcoiners in particular you know we we have this low time preference you know we're we we see a long horizon when it comes to wealth specifically and that means that we. Probably. Most of us probably expect our wealth to outlive us. That's why we're still stack, right? I mean we that's why we keep stacking is because we think that the value proposition of Bitcoin, at least as a store of value is you know unlike anything human technology has come up with to this point and so. You know, even. Even more so than our equities portfolios, our real estate portfolios or any other element of. You know, family wealth. We have this, you know, kind of long. We have this Longview of wealth for ourselves. And so I certainly expect my wealth and my Bitcoin among the most important part of it, to outlive me. And so then making sure that I have equipped my loved ones, the people that I care the most about to not just be able to physically take possession of my Bitcoin once I die, but for them to have a framework around that so that they can get the most out of the value that that that builds. And so, you know, hopefully we'll get a chance to talk a little bit more about some trust frameworks, think things to think about when it comes time to, to plan for this kind of transgenerational wealth, so. Yeah, always happy to come on. Always happy to share my thoughts. I try not to be coy. I'm a I'm a pretty open book. I've got to be got to be careful kind of right up front. Might as well do the disclaimer now. You know, I'm AI, am a practicing attorney, but I got to be clear that nothing that I give in this podcast or any other podcast or any of my, you know, 2:00 in the morning tweets, nothing like that is intended to provide legal advice. I also am an owner of a registered investment advisory bespoke group which is a multi family office catering specifically towards clients with significant crypto positions, especially Bitcoin. And so nothing I say is intended to be financial advice either. And I guess the final thing I'd say is if you're if you. If you if you take what you hear? On any podcast, even a podcast as this podcast, if you take that as legal advice or financial advice, you kind of deserve what happens. So this is not advice, This is just you know, education perspective, you know, 20 years in the industry talking here it. Sounds like you got everything covered there. Not legal advice. Not financial advice. No advice at all. Really. Let's, let's let's just be clear. Come on, guys. Not here to give advice, we're here to educate. It's funny because Marty's been talking about Bitcoin since 2017. I've never heard him on his other pod talking. TFTC give a disclaimer. Well, see, Marty, you don't have to give a disclaimer. No, I gave it. So it's. Disclaimer Very bullish on Bitcoin. You should all know that. It's worked out pretty well for any listeners, so. It has no, but we're here to talk. I, I, I wanted to piggyback on on what Matt was saying that that you know one of the things that has struck me the last six months at on ramp as as we've been talking to our you know our our earliest clients and and bringing our product out into the market is, is how this topic matters to so many bitcoiners. And I think it's this interesting convergence of of a lot of different factors in in our lives, our our individual lives. How you know to be a bitcoiner is to be a two marshmallow kind of guy, to be a saver, to be someone who's trying to you know store value, propagate it, preserve it, grow it into the future. And and you know like we're the types of people who plant trees for future generations to benefit from, like that's just part of our DNA, it's part of how you become a bitcoiners. You see the value proposition of this thing that if you don't consume it now, it grows in in value over time. And people who find that attractive are compelled by the idea of how do you preserve that and set up your future generations the right way to benefit from, you know, all the hard work and and you know, nurturing that you've done with the this acorn that has grown into a tree. So you know, there's there's that whole psychology of bitcoiners and there's also the life stage of bitcoiners too. I mean the reality of a lot of early adopting Bitcoiners are are Gen. X and millennials, and I'm a millennial, you know, we're we're in the prime of our early family lives. And so we're thinking about how, you know, how do we protect our families, how do we take care of our families into the future. And if you're Gen. X, you've been, you've been, you know, in that phase of life for a decade or even 2. And so this is top of mind for for my cohort for for Gen. X as well, for Bitcoiners in general. And it's and yet it's a topic that hasn't really been brought up a ton in Bitcoin because we're so focused on the asset. We're so focused on, you know what Bitcoin versus the US dollar, what this does, the central banking. And and we like the idea of growing our purchasing power into the future. But, but nobody wants to think about like OK, well what if I die, you know and and that is part of aging and doing it right I think and and doing it responsibly for your family is grappling with that a little bit. Just enough that you're preparing for that eventuality for that possibility And you know eventual certainty with this asset that you know as Matt you pointed out is is unlike any other asset we've ever had before and will outlive us and grow during that time. So I think it's this interesting convergence that I've been noticing over the last six months of like this topic matters so much and it it might be the the most under talked about topic relative to how much it matters in the Bitcoin community. I think that's right. I mean you you kind of land on that too there. It's like the the eventuality is as certain as a 21 million token hard cap. I mean, we're all going to be mushrooms someday. So you know, we know that that's going to happen. We know that we're going to die. We just hope it's going to be many, many, many years from now. Odds are you don't get to choose. It happens when it happens, you know, life just happens. And then it stops happening and just that's the way that's the way it goes. Sometimes you have no warning. We've lived this personally in our family, people taken away at the prime of life. So I mean. I've lived through this first hand with some family members, so we there's life has a 100% mortality rate. We know that's true. What we often overlook is that there is a greater than 50% chance that we will spend some period of time disabled before we die. And so whether that's through a car accident, bike accident, we slam into a tree skiing at Vale, we have some disease that takes us off our feet. Any number of things can happen in our 30s, in our 50s, in our 70s, anywhere along the line couple that. With a complicated asset, especially a complicated asset that the the. Ownership rails, if you will, are are challenging sometimes. Navigating multi sig, navigating, cold storage, self custody, whatever. Providers are scarce. There's some excellent ones, but providers are scarce. And couple that even with the often disparity of information within a family. You know, in in my family I'm the Bitcoin expert, which, you know, God help them, but my wife knows that we have Bitcoin, my kids know that we have Bitcoin. My kids have differing layers, different levels of sophistication when it comes to that. But if something were to happen to me, then my wife, my kids are going to be at a bit of a disadvantage when it comes to managing this asset. And and I'm prepared. There are, you know, vast majority of bitcoiners out there who are not prepared. They, they are the Hodlers. They're the ones who understand it. They're the ones who know where the signature devices are. They know where the seed phrases are and maybe their spouse or partner has some working understanding. But there's usually one expert in the family, and if it's that expert who dies or is or is dealing with an illness or something that takes them out of Commission, it's really challenging to get to be able to manage this asset that is profoundly complicated, profoundly valuable, and and challenging to deal with very often. Yeah yeah that that that I I might be jumping the gun a little bit here but that's been one of the learnings for us with on ramp is you know we we've really kind of trailblaze this new form of custody is multi institution custody and originally you know the thinking was this is going to really appeal to corporations or institutions people where there's more than one person involved investment committees and and this is a perfect solution for for that use case of of who's going to hold the keys. Well you don't want anyone individual to hold the keys you want it to be outsourced to an institution who's responsible and the multi institution custody format is mitigates all the risks involved in like just trusting Coinbase So we thought it was it was about that but increasingly we've had individuals reach out saying you know I I want to make sure that my family is protected because because one I'm afraid of a wrench attack today while while I'm alive and and my current self custody set up doesn't fully protect against a wrench attack. But then also and and I think this is probably the bigger worry that people keeps people up at night is if I die will my wife and kids be able to figure out the Bitcoin the custody you know go on the on the treasure hunt to figure out where the the keys are kept and your multi Sagan and you know the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow is it turns out a few different plastic devices don't screw them up don't break them. Hopefully that whole process works out but that keeps people up at night and we've talked to some you know well known bitcoiners who where this is a concern of theirs and and then this solution this multi institution custody solution becomes a part of how they're thinking about diversifying their risk for their own self custody. And so part of that recently has been you know we've been adding making sure that our product is is meeting the needs of individuals who are interested in inheritance and and making sure that they can pass on their Bitcoin seamlessly through this multi institution custody model with the right planning in place in advance. And and to be clear this is this is for bitcoiners with a few 100,000 in Bitcoin or maybe several million in Bitcoin and not not quite the tier that that Matt is the perfect person to be working with if you're on the higher echelons. But yeah, this is for the the, the the bitcoiners who have a a nice nest egg and they want to make sure that it, all of it, or some of it has, you know, is stored in this different form of custody that is guaranteed to propagate seamlessly to the next generation in the event of a disaster. Yeah, there there are two thoughts on there too that and I feel like I'm kind of dominating the conversation maybe, but a couple of thoughts there one is. How prepared are the recipients for Bitcoin custody? And you know, if we're just dealing with the mechanical transfer of assets. You know, it's it's one thing to know how to. Put a lump of gold or something else, you know, like a piece of art or something, into a vault somewhere. It's another thing altogether to know how to securely manage Bitcoin that you received from somebody else. Especially if dad was a bitcoiner or Mom was a bitcoiner and the kids say, well, I don't know. What this is? I know it's valuable, but. OK. Are they are they prepared for that? And the other thing aside from just the how prepared are they to receive the that particular asset from a from a legacy planning perspective, the the world I really inhabit is not how prepared are they mechanically, and that's part of it. But how prepared are they, psychologically or emotionally or just situationally to receive any meaningful amount of wealth without strings attached? And here's here's what I'm getting at here. You know, again, I've been. Doing this for a little over 2 decades now and I've seen my fair share of things that just go off the rails. You know you have. Whether it's 10s of thousands of dollars or hundreds of thousands of dollars or hundreds of millions of dollars, when wealth changes hands from the the person who built that wealth through whatever sacrifices, innovation, risk taking, hard work to build those assets, and that wealth passes into the hands of an inheriting generation. The inheriting generation may have had a front row seat to that experience of building that wealth, but they didn't build it themselves. And so there is not the same level of appreciation. There is a certain sense of entitlement that often not always, but often accompanies being an inheritor. So there's there's that, you know, are they, are they really prepared to steward this, this wealth and these particular assets over time in a way that would really honor the the sacrifice that went into building in the first place? But then also. What else is lurking in that inheritors life that could separate them from the wealth that they receive? So classic example is a beneficiary who receives an outright distribution. Mom and dad die and they receive 100,000 dollars, 500,000 dollars, $20 million doesn't make it the the number doesn't matter. But then a month later, after they've inherited this distribution that was going to come out right, their spouse says, you know what, honey, it's been a great ride, but. I'm out of here. I'm going to. Divorce you. And by the way, I'm going to take a claim against that inheritance because you just received it outright. Or they're in the middle of a business bankruptcy or a personal bankruptcy, or they just got in a car wreck and hurt somebody pretty badly. And there are no guardrails around that wealth. Or that beneficiary has a pattern of self destruction. They've got substance abuse problems. They might have mental health issues, they might have gambling addictions, whatever. Life just happens to people. And if any asset, if if all we have thought about with planning for an asset is the mechanical transfer from a dead person to a living person, we haven't even solved for the most important part of the equation. The most important part of the equation is how prepared is that person, the inheritor, to receive that asset in a way that, one, it honors the legacy that built it, and two, it protects the inheritor from just the crap that happens in life. Because if if I plan you know, really consciously about my wealth, however vast or frankly however modest it might be, I have the ability to set those assets aside for the benefit of the people I care about, without the problems of ownership that go along with just an outright distribution and so. You know. We're talking about some type of trust. There's innumerable variations of trust you can use. But at the end. Of the day, we're talking about putting assets aside in a protective trust framework that allows the beneficiaries the opportunity to sometimes mature into proper asset management or maybe whether some headwinds that are coming their way and you can do those. You can design trusts in a way that are very liberal that are very free with the beneficiary's access to the assets. So you can really enrich the beneficiary's lives as again as liberally as you want to be. But unless and until the assets are distributed out of the trust to the beneficiary, you have the opportunity to be better. Ensure that the wealth you built during your. Lifetime is preserved as long as possible to make the most meaningful impact on the people that you leave. Behind and that's that's really what the other day that's what we talked about when we talked about legacy planning that's that's why we named our law firm Evergreen Legacy Planning. That's what we that's what it's all about. It's not just the mechanical transfer. It's not just solving for taxes, although we do that too. It's solving for getting the best outcome for the people that we care the most about, so that what we spent our lifetimes building has the most positive impact on the people that we care the most. About Yeah, it's. Fantastic. Yeah. And that's where I get really excited Matt and you coming and sharing this because Marty's been around I think longer than probably I wouldn't say all this combined, but he's been around, he's seen a lot of stuff and we think about like how do we get here and you know, we're still so early. So how do we plan around this is growing from like a technological perspective in the the tools and what you know Jesse was alluding to. But then I think about it takes people that have seen things and you had a background and were experienced in this and generally to see things you have to have some you know tenure you reference, you know you're a little older than us. So you've seen more things than we have and you have been building in this environment of legacy planning and how you know estate tax legal implications and how you you you transition and and make sure your yourself and family are taken care of. And so you found Bitcoin and seen this theme generally like we had Gavin Fury who's also another amazing attorney in a different respect. But this idea that you you saw it you were curious enough and then you mapped and dedicated kind of like sharing this message which is fundamentally I think transformative to what's happening in this industry because what Jesse alluded to it doesn't get talked about enough. I'm convinced because the demographic it's whatever that much alluded or Lord like tech male white demographic of like Bitcoin holder. It kind of is true. Like whatever it's 25 to 44, whatever that number is and most people are there speaking from experiences like you just don't feel like you're gonna pass anytime soon. And so you get that wealth and then it continues to appreciate. But as the appreciation, they're correlated with time is your age. And so this is like this natural thing. Going back to Marty, he's seen this like year over year, the growth in maturation, it feels like this is just a maturation of the market and being able to figure out how do you plan for this? How do you think about it from a long term perspective? What are the primitives you use? How do you pass it on? And in the last part, because I'd be curious, Marty's thoughts, but you have AI. I'd encourage everybody to go look at evergreenlegacyplanning.com, Matt's website on the main page. It's too long to to share, but I'll paraphrase. He has this thing says your wealth is more than money. It's a story. And one of the line says along the way there's been costs associated with accumulation of that wealth, time away from your family, sweat, tears, sleepless nights. And it basically is telling the story that the money is more than just, you know, it's just more than capital. It's a story of like all the things you've done and so this importance to be able to make sure it passes and then that gravity that he's alluding to on the education and and the importance of you know, not inheriting $10 million in market selling is such an important part of while you're alive educating. So I really like it's it's awesome that you've kind of like mapped this to your experience because there's just so much information education to be delivered here that I think will impact people for, you know, years to come. Yeah, Yeah. And and I'd add to that that you know also speaking from experience of like I haven't thought a bunch about this topic. And then Matt, hearing you explain like the importance of solving for the outcome, solving for the intended result of like your heirs responsibly managing this windfall in that holistic approach to it, the like. The 360 view of inheritance planning is not something that I was thinking about at all six months ago until until we had you on on this, this show. And a big part of that, which hopefully we can just do as like a recap for whoever didn't listen to that first show is you talked about, you know, revocable and irrevocable trusts and the options there. And and a big part of that in my mind was, was that there's this window for bitcoiners who are sitting on some Bitcoin where you know, if you if you end up wanting one of those structures in place like a irrevocable trust in particular, you're going to want to have done that before the next bull market basically or or the bull market after that. And if you want to recap some of those considerations that that could be very helpful for everyone. Yeah, happy to, Happy to. The I guess the TLDR on the revocable trust is that that's pretty much just table stakes for everybody. Honestly, I think that you you do not have to be wealthy to need a Revocable living trust. What the Revocable Living Trust does for you is it privatizes the process of managing your affairs. If you become incapacitated and when you die, you can avoid court involvement in private family decisions. If you have a really thoughtfully designed Revocable Living Trust and you have gone so far as to make sure that the assets that have a title are titled in the name of that Revocable trust, that's you know who doesn't want that you know? And you can, you know, probably find you know, a decent estate planning attorney worth their salt to do one of those for a few 1000 bucks. I mean, you know, a 10th of a Bitcoin. She's going to get that job done more often than not. You know, you may have to educate that attorney around Bitcoin, but you know it's there's not a ton of Bitcoin specific heavy lifting you need to do in a revocable trust. You know, we do do that when we're doing that as part of a broader state plan for clients. We think it's important. But you know, everybody needs a revocable living trust. If you three guys don't have it, you need it. I've got it. You know, everybody needs it and. That's. Just table stakes for frankly being a being a grown up the but Jesse, to your point the you know the. Revocable trust provides you zero asset protection during your life. Why? Because you can revoke it. The Revocable Link trust provides you 0 tax benefits during your life. Why? Because you can revoke it. You created it for your own benefit. You do whatever you want to with it. You have not changed your relationship with your Bitcoin or other assets at all. What you have done is you have privatized the process of managing your financial affairs and you can create a framework. For the continued benefit of your spouse, partner, kids, grandkids, whomever. That will spring into effect after you die. The revocable trust becomes irrevocable after you died because you are the one who retained the power to revoke. If you're dead, nobody has the power to revoke it. But you can also create trusts that are irrevocable during your lifetime. And the reason you would do an irrevocable trust is to get some type of tax benefit and or privacy benefit and or asset protection benefit. And so again, there there's far more than we can go into. On a On a. Podcast like this, but again just kind of been broad strokes. What a lot of people think about when they are creating an irrevocable trust during their lifetime is they want to get the value of an asset or get get part of the value in their estate. You know basically their total balance sheet out of their taxable estate for federal and sometimes state level estate tax purposes. Which means that you, you create an irrevocable trust, you can put your assets in to that irrevocable trust. Under most circumstances. That would then 'cause you to file a federal gift tax return that would then use up part of your estate tax exemption. And from that point forward, all the growth on the value of the assets inside that irrevocable trust. All of that. Growth can escape estate tax for many, many generations to come. So let me. Some quick numbers on this just to make it real. Every US taxpayer has a 13 point. I can't remember. It's just a little over 13 million bucks federal estate tax exemption this year, and that's a lifetime exemption. You can gift up to 13 million and some change into an irrevocable trust during your lifetime. And there's no gift tax, no estate tax. You're basically claiming the use of that credit that you have. And then from that moment forward, every dollar, everything that accretes inside that trust from that point forward will forever escape estate tax treatment. You know, for generations, depending on how you design this trust, you don't have to do all 13 million. Maybe you don't have 13 million bucks, but maybe you've got 1,000,000 bucks or a couple 1,000,000 bucks worth of Bitcoin. And you say you know what, this is probably going to go parabolic, at least during the course of. You know the next. 20-30 years I want to put a stake in the ground. Get the future growth of that Bitcoin out of my estate because I don't plan on selling it. I want it to be there as a nest egg for my family for many generations. That's fine. You can create an irrevocable trust. Put a few 1,000,000 bucks in that irrevocable trust. If that $2,000,000 worth of Bitcoin goes to 20 million, or 50 million, or 100 million, or use your imagination, then all of that growth on the asset is out of your estate and probably out of the estates of many, many generations to come. So then you escape the 40% estate tax erosion that will happen? At every ensuing generation. So, so you got this $13 million exemption this year. Let's say you use 2,000,000 bucks this year. That means you've got 11,000,000 to play with. You know, for future planning purposes, if you've got a huge estate, if you've got, you know forty $50 million estate, there are other trusts we can use. There are other structures we can use that can get you more leverage on that $13 million exemption. So just understand that you don't have to be an ultra high net worth like you know, giga whale for irrevocable trust planning. One other thing I'd kind of land on here too is that often when we think of irrevocable trusts, we think, well, I don't want to put it in an irrevocable trust. That means I can't benefit from it anymore. You know what happens if I need it Well. There are different types. Of irrevocal trusts that you can create at least for the benefit of your spouse. Your spouse can create for the benefit of you. You can create, you know, back doors in these various plans that provide a lot of flexibility. But that that really kind of gets us into a nuanced series of rabbit Warrens that we probably don't want to to go down. But just understand that you know there, you know? There are so many different variations of irrevocable trusts. Once you you know. Once you get and let irrevocable trust world. Yeah, I never really thought about it from that perspective of like especially right now given where we're at and most holders aren't fall into the camps, they're probably on this podcast that are having you know single digit percentage allocations. You have like other producing income assets, whether you know, your, your job, your business where if you lock in those gains, if you don't plan to sell it, you're already set, you know to pass it on while you still have all these other productive assets And you can still accumulate outside of that, you know, core position or the irrevocable trust position. Yeah. And it's and it's not and it's it's never an all or nothing proposition either. I mean it's like you don't say, well, I got to get all my Bitcoin to this trust. No you don't. You just whatever you want to. And it I mean it's like and it's and it's not like, well, shoot, I wish I'd put more in there. Well, you can always put more in there. You know, it's like maybe you just want to put a placeholder of a couple 1,000,000 bucks in there. And then you say, oh gosh, it really is, you know, mooning because of the having, you know, ETFs or, you know, firming up and now get the halving cycle. And then, you know, we got months past the halving and things are looking rosy. You know, might want to move more and then move more. And then these trusts just become a vehicle. For owning assets and so you can still retain the power to direct investments. You can, you know, sometimes serve as the trustee of a trust that your spouse created, or, you know, whatever. Again, there there are a whole lot of different design elements and considerations that you need to think about. But there's people are people are afraid. Well, if I, if I put my Bitcoin or other assets in this irrevocable trust, it's like this, you know, it's like this black box that I can't understand and then I can't really touch or do anything else with. That's doesn't have to be the case, you know, There are some creative trust designs that allow a high level of flexibility and a high level of benefit while still getting value out of the estate and providing these other benefits like privacy and stuff like that. So it's like it's listen, I mean, I I get it. It's complicated. But it shouldn't be scary. And you know, estate planning attorneys are not scary people. We're, you know, we're problem solvers. You know, if we weren't problem solvers, we'd be litigators or something like. That but you know we like to, we like to solve problems, we like to think creatively and Michael something that you that you alluded to is a jurisdictional question I want to make sure that we spend some time on because. You know the the trust laws of the 50 states can vary wildly from one state to the next and that's not even before we think about non-us jurisdictions. You know here in the US you've got the luxury regardless of where you live, you've got the luxury to invoke the law of whatever jurisdiction you want to interpret your your trust. So you know we help clients established trust in South Dakota. The clients who have never even been to South Dakota might not even be able to find on a map. We do a lot of trust in Wyoming. As you guys know we've done trust in Nevada. We've done trust offshore, We've done other entities offshore that are owned by trusts offshore. You can be a resident of some other state and you know if you're if you're don't happen to live in a state that's got particularly favorable trust laws borrow somebody else's and I'm I'm sitting here in Colorado that's you know this is where our our office is I'm working from home today but you know our office is right here in Colorado. Honestly guys, I can't tell you the last time I used Colorado law for a trust. You know we we use these other jurisdictions that I've mentioned because those. Laws are much more favorable. And so when when people are. Starting to explore their estate? Planning. Thinking more long term. From a long term planning perspective, it's important to realize that you're not trapped by the borders of your home state. You know, your revocable trust that I talked about earlier probably should be administered under your home state, just from a practical perspective. But any irrevocable trust that you create for family legacy purposes or charitable purposes or whatever, you know, if you happen to live in Colorado or you know some other state that doesn't have particularly favorable trust laws, borrow somebody else's. And I think that when you're talking to advisors about this, you need to be finding advisors who take a broadview from a jurisdictional perspective. And when we're talking about Bitcoin custody, you know, if you're going to have Bitcoin in an irrevocable trust, you're going to have to have a third party trustee of some sort, most likely. And that third party trustee is going to have to find some way to manage the key signatures for the Bitcoin. And that's spooky for a lot of people. But there are trustees out there. We're not. We're not a. Trust Company, we don't serve in that capacity. But there are, there are trustees that can serve in that capacity and they're all there are other structures. That you can build, I mean very often we'll have a, we'll have a limited liability company that owns the Bitcoin and the trust owns a limited liability company and so then we can manage the key material at the LLC level while the trustee just babysits an LLC interest. So again, that's you know. Getting a bit granular, but my thought my my point, my broader point is. You know, we we focus a lot of our energy understanding this complicated asset like Bitcoin. We follow global markets, we follow the Fed, we follow the SEC and all those other complicated stuff. I would encourage. People to do the same level of due diligence on their own personal wealth and legacy planning that they do on anything else. Yeah, these are extremely good points. And every time I talk to him, I'm like, God, I need to get better at this, but. I think get on it. But because really like it really I think we're digging into an emotional aspect. It gets overlooked in a day-to-day basis if you're running a business or investing, we really think about this concept of opportunity costs. And in the moment when you're weighing the opportunity cost to do I put my money here or there, there's like very hard decisions. And that is not not only a capital decision, it's also a time decision. What Michael was getting into earlier, like the opportunity cost of spending your time with your family, are going out and working trying to build wealth and to think that you could get to the end of your life and not have that really tough opportunity cost decisions that you made throughout your life not be respected is something that scares the shit out of me. I get it, dude. I get it because it's like, I mean, first of all I'm just going to make. Sure. The elephant in the room. Lawyers suck. And lawyers are expensive and nobody wants to talk with lawyers. I get it. I get it. You know, it's I I try to suck less than other lawyers. But you know, it it does suck when you have because that stuff is complicated and it it you feel like it shouldn't have to be. You know, we don't make the rules. We just, you know, we interpret the rules and we try to interpret them creatively for the benefit of the people who we're fortunate enough to work for as as our clients. And so, but yeah, it's nobody wants to spend the money. Nobody wants to spend the time to think through a bunch of confusing things, feel like they're an idiot, and end up paying thousands of. Dollars for a bunch of. Confusing legal documents that they don't really understand. And I get it. I mean the the legal industry is broken and it's been broken for a long time, you know. Part of what we try to solve for on the. Family Office. Side of the. Equation again, which really is only appropriate once we're dealing with significant like really significant wealth. We try to mitigate those kind of ongoing carrying costs because you know, estate planning done properly is like building a home properly. Yeah, you can. You know, you could go find some, you know, blueprint off of the Internet and. Hire. Some nominal license contract has got a 3.5% review on Yelp and he's going to build you a crappy little house that's never going to pass inspection. And your septic tank is going to back up on you all the time and your cabinets are going to fall down. But hell, at the end of the day, you got a house or you can, you know, really do your due diligence and say, you know what, this is a house that I'm going to live in, that I'm going to shelter my family in that is going to be meaningful. You know, maybe I'm not going to go hire, you know, whoever, you know, built the most exotic, you know, museum in the world out there. But I'm also not going to find some freaking blueprint off of, you know, buildyourhome.com. And I'm probably not going to hire somebody who's just, you know, they say they do a little bit of estate planning, but they also do divorces and, you know, car wrecks and dog bites and workers comp. You know, it's like this is not to be trifled with. You know, we are talking about building a metaphorical house for your family's wealth. And you want that house to still be standing when you don't live there anymore. And the people that you left behind do, how sturdy do you want that roof? How, how firm do you want that foundation? That's what we're talking about. And so, you know, look, I I get that I'm talking my book. You know, we've got plenty of clients. It's not like I'm trying to, you know, drum up business or anything like that. I just think that this is often overlooked. People hold their nose and, you know, go to some yokel who's, you know, their mom and dad used or somebody who says they do wills and say, well, I'm just going to do will and get it over with. Well, you've accomplished virtually nothing other than lightening your wallet by, you know, a couple 1000 bucks if you have a will or certainly if you have nothing. If you're going to do it, do it right. If you're not going to do it right, don't do it. Thanks for tuning in. If you're interested in exploring any of these topics further, or want to learn more about how we can help you secure a new or existing Bitcoin allocation, get in touch with our team at on rampbitcoin.com. We look forward to supporting you on your Bitcoin journey. Yeah, it's it's an important thing. I know you mentioned talking your book, but it's important to reinforce because it reminds me of the same thing with custody where folks generally like, don't they wait till the last minute in the sense of, like these moves are so dramatic, whether it's a price appreciation or the mortality or, you know, the health, you know, degrading and then being in that position. And then it's like it becomes acute, unlike what the changes need to be made. And I hear in your voice how you describe this. And you've been describing this for for years to me. And it's finally like I think, Marty, your reference point of you always think about this, trust me, like this stuff, it's just like it's starting to actually become clear that, you know, for for years has been describing this. And it's just, it's not, it's not that it's complicated. It's just it's like opaque. You kind of hear it and then you're still trying to map how it maps to like your world, the appreciation, your, your your children, children happen. And then that obviously becomes a bigger forcing function to like understand all of this. But I hear that that like tone of it's serious because it will make sense at a certain point and it's better to get ahead of it. In the same way it's better to get ahead of like how you protect the asset because it will appreciate. And then you're going to be thinking oh shit, I wish I would have done it and it's just better to do it and majority of people won't. But if there's a few that do it, everybody's kind of better off. I think that's I mean I think that's right. It's you know, I mentioned this last time. I I think that this is again, often often under emphasized by my colleagues, and so it further makes things opaque. It's like this, It's just an iterative process. Everything, everything changes. What makes you think your plan shouldn't? Change. I mean, that's where the metaphor to a certain degree of of building the house breaks down because you're everything is going to change. It's like you know, you got these documents, you got this, these series. It's not even the documents. All they do is memorialize a strategy. And so the strategies, the essence of the strategies themselves just evolve over time. You know your your needs, change the markets, move the you know, regulations, change, legislation changes, you move from 1 jurisdiction to another, people die. Shit happens. You know the the The planning process has to be iterative. You know it's and and unfortunately. Again adding to the opacity of it. And adding to the fact that lawyers are pains in the ass is that every time something major happens, you should be thinking well. How does this impact my strategies that I have in place and then, well, I guess I need to talk to my attorney. About about that. Issue and see if something needs to happen and hopefully. The attorneys aren't cynical. Hopefully the attorneys are creative and pragmatic and say, well, you know, maybe the changes that you've perceived aren't so profound as to as to need a change. Thanks for the conversation. Let's pick up this conversation again in a year. Or what? Or unless something else major changes, that's the way we approach things in the law practice. And I think again, again, I think it's the right way to do it and that's why we've done it this way. But it's like everything we do is a fixed fee type of deal. It's like, you know, let's, let's have a series of conversations and if there's an opportunity for us to work together, that's great. Let's figure out a scope of work. Let's size that and let's just set the fee, and then you get that. Ugly part of the conversation out of the way and then you've you know we got to set fee for a. Defined body of work and then unless you change the goal posts, you know if you if you change the goal posts or if I perceive your change the goal posts, we're going to have a conversation about that and. If you do, change the goal. Posts. We'll just revisit the scope of work and we'll. If you don't make changes to that fixed fee, but if you don't move the goal posts, the fee is the fee, then let's just solve the problem. And the way our the way we. Take it. I mean, it makes us. On the one hand, it makes us pretty inefficient from a time perspective. Because, you know, we we want people to be knowledgeable consumers. We want them to understand the choices that they make and the strategies that they establish. And we don't want somebody creating something that they don't understand, that they're not comfortable with. So you know. If we have to have five conversations, 10 conversations, half dozen meetings, whatever. Let's have it because I, you know, I want you to understand. What it is that you're? Committing to and then once. Those strategies are in place, at least the way we approach things is we just say, we just say, hey, let's just have a dialogue, you know, let's, you know, if something changes, just. E-mail me. Call me. Let's just have a conversation about it. I don't charge for that kind of stuff and in part, you know our fees are high and so we get paid well for doing that fixed body of work. But we also want our clients to have a high level of comfort and confidence in what we've done for them. So when something changes, we talk about it. And if something needs a. Minor. Tweak. Maybe there's a fee and maybe there's not a fee. But the clients never have a surprise bill. That's the way I think any lawyer who does legacy planning ought to operate. It ought to be completely transparent. It should not be hourly. That's my bias. I think hourly billing is just stupid. I think the incentives are completely misaligned if you're paying me by the hour. It's my. It's in my. Financial best interest to drag this out and it's you in your financial interest for me to get this over with. And so we say, look, you know, if we're going to solve a problem, let's. Figure out how big this problem is, and then let's you know. Do the best we can to establish a, you know, a known price. So then you can have your sticker shock, you can swallow that and be done with it, and then we can solve the problem. That's much better than, you know. Give me a. Retainer all bill against that and then every time you e-mail me. Every time. You call me every time I have to explain the same thing to you in legalese. Five different ways you're going to get a bill. I mean that sucks. I don't, I I wouldn't want that. So I don't, you know, I don't do that and I think that the majority of estate planners. Who are out there do not do hourly. I think the majority of people who are my colleagues in the estate planning industry do fixed fee work and that should be one of the criteria I think you look for when you're trying to find somebody who's going to do the state planning for you. We're not splitting the atom here. I mean, these are, these are known strategies, known solutions. There are a lot of tweaks, there's a lot of tailoring that has to get done. But it's not like litigation where we've got multiple parties, there's a lot of back and forth, a lot of negotiation. It's like, tell me how big the problem is you want to solve for. Let's roll up our sleeves and figure that out, and then I can size that. That's really pretty straightforward. Is that unique just to this like area or is that across law how you feel like it should be billed that way? Like, does Bitcoin fix this or is this just one unique example? Because, you know, Jesse and I don't really like getting billed by attorneys and surprise, so we're just curious on this lot. I was just about to say like, you're the second lawyer I've heard say this in the last three months. When we were at the Blockchain Summit up in Fort Worth, I met with a lawyer and he was describing like how he's going to start his own firm and really just go into a flat fee rate or a fixed fee rate per client instead of billing hourly. Because like you said, incentives are just completely misaligned. Yeah, I think it is more common in the estate planning area than like in another transactional or or like. Negotiated, mediated type of things. Because you know, in the estate planning realm, the attorney should be able to pretty much control the environment. You know, we should know our craft well enough to know what solutions we're going to bring to bear. We should have enough experience to say, well Jesse, if I'm solving this problem for you, let's have a look at your balance sheet. Be as transparent as you can be. We're going to talk about a whole bunch of stuff that's going to make you squirm a little bit, but that's OK. That's part of the process. And then we can say, OK, well it's going to cost X to solve for that and then you know what it is in a transaction in a you know multi. Party type of. Transaction A mediation sometimes like business matters where there's a whole lot of back and forth. Unfortunately that kind of does tend to be hourly. I mean again I think that sucks. I don't, I don't like, I mean I don't do that kind of work. So I can't really throw stones at the model in that in that case. But you know I share the pain, I share the, the concern about that Marty as to your point, you know I I kind. Of need to know more. About that particular model, but one of the things that is one of the one of the models that's out there is the private client lawyer model made popular by this guy named Russ Allen Prince. And that is kind of like the family consuliere. And I've, I've served in that capacity families as well where it's like, you know, got a problem, got a question, want to solve, you know solve for it. And so I mean sometimes you're just like a standing monthly retainer and it's pretty much all you can eat for for that retainer. And some months it are not as busy as other months, but you know you try to size it and it kind of becomes part of this like ongoing console era type model. Now I'll be to be you know part of this we do in the family office space. Again, we've got to be clear, you know Bespoke is not a law firm and so there are like limitations on things like attorney-client privilege within Bespoke, whereas you do have attorney-client privilege within the law firm. We just have to paper everything up and be super careful about that. But a lot of what we provide to our family, to our families inside the multi family office is just going to ongoing consultative strategic. Support, you know, because very often our law, our law firm or some other law firm. Would have set up a whole bunch of convoluted, complicated strategies that solve for a whole bunch of different things. And I mean, you think that basic estate planning is complicated. Just wait until you've got 10 different strategies that are intended to do, you know, 10 different things across five different jurisdictions. It's a lot to keep up with. And so rather than have. You can't create a fixed fee for that because you have no idea what you're solving for and rather than create an hourly. Model where the incentives are completely misaligned. Echoing Marty here, you know in the family office space we can do that on a small percentage of the assets under administration within the family office. And then we've got like this longitudinal strategic thinking for clients and a lot of it goes something like this. It's like I'm having this conversation right now with a with a client. A whole lot of unencumbered real estate. So no mortgages, you know, 10s of millions of dollars worth of real estate with no mortgages on. Them mountains of Bitcoin and no cash. And so the real estate is in a series of limited liability companies in a series of trusts and so part of what we helped solve for on the family office space, which is not. The law firm It's not legal services. It's not legal advice. If you want us to solve a legal problem, we shift that over to the law firm. But if you just want strategic thinking, then we say, well, your trusts, your limited liability companies can borrow against the assets inside those entities. Why don't we see if we can negotiate favorable terms, so you can take out favorable loans against your real estate and then take the cash and invest that into tax efficient high yield income generating investments so you can now actually live and not have to sell Bitcoin in order to pay tax liabilities or otherwise financial lifestyle. And so some of that stuff seems like fairly low hanging fruit. But honestly for for a lot of, you know, sophisticated highly affluent family, they just don't think about this stuff and they they wouldn't even know how to do it with these trusts in place. They need the trusts for the tax and legal reasons that they set them up in the 1st place. But they need a family office with kind of some estate planning expertise to help them think through. OK, well how do I how do I get out of this gilded cage that we've got? You know, if we've got, we've got high value illiquid real estate with no debt, we've got high value zero or very low basis Bitcoin that we sure as hell don't want to sell, especially not now. We don't want to be forced sellers for anything, but we've got tax obligations. And you know what? We don't want to live in these beautiful homes and have to worry about how we're going to pay for the next vacation to Europe. That is just dumb. You know, we and we don't want to go through all the crazy, you know, stuff that you might do, you know, with Bitcoin options and whatever, where you end up being a forced seller on options or whatever. So, you know, we, you know, we can kind of provide longitudinal strategic thinking in the context of estate planning strategies and we do that within the family office context. One thing to add there is it's so important that family office context understands Bitcoin, It's appreciation because anybody else in that respect and Matt, correct me if I'm wrong, would tell you to sell the shit out of that position because it's like you have these realized gains or these unrealized gains. You can live your life there. You should take something off the table. You should re, you know, allocate versus understanding that which is so important and actually creating a solution versus saying this is your problem, you know, which is like nobody does that and it's what's needed. I, you know I agree we've got there. There are basically two different types of investment frameworks that people will go, will go with whether it's with us or anybody else. In the family office context, there are discretionary mandates and non discretionary mandates. Non discretionary mandates mean that we don't, we cannot move any asset, we cannot sell anything until the client says sell or until the client says buy. Then there are discretionary mandates where the client then provides an investment policy statement or a more detailed mandate that says under these certain circumstances, under these conditions within these guardrails you guys have a lot of freedom to act. And so with our clients we operate under one of those two broad frameworks and it it depends on what the client wants. You know, you know we are unusual I think on the family office side in that the overwhelming majority of our clients made their wealth in Bitcoin or other digital assets. And so you know we're not going to tell them to divest to this asset that you know, built the family wealth. We'll have conversations with them about alternatives, you know, you know, and we're also savvy enough to think, you know, if past is prologue, you know, having Cycle Plus, call it 150 days, you may be getting close to the peak, you know, but we helped them think through that. And, you know, but it's like, if you want a 90% allocation to Bitcoin, you want a 98% allocation to Bitcoin, fine. You know, we're not. You know, you're the ones who built this wealth. It's your it's your money, it's your wealth. And I guess also importantly, we have no. Products to sell. The majority of family offices out there. The again the overwhelming majority of family offices, at least in the United States, by which I mean multi family offices, single family offices are a different animal. But the vast majority of multi family offices out there have some fund or a series of funds that they want you to buy. And so Michael, I think you should sell your Bitcoin. I I think Michael you've got a 70% allocation to Bitcoin. That's just gosh that's awfully aggressive. What we do have for you is we you know again this is again this I'm I'm a role-playing here. This is not what we do but it's like most multi family offices say Michael sell some of your Bitcoin. And by the way here is a series of tech heavy hedge funds. We're all into AI. We're all into you know, you know sexy thing du jour and you can pay me a 2% management fee and a 20% carry and you're going to have 18 month lock up on your limited partnership interest to just sell your Bitcoin, recognize the capital gains tax liability and then lock it up in an 18 month lock up that I'm taking the 2 and 20 on. And by the way it's profoundly correlated to your Bitcoin. I mean that's asinine, that's I thought you're going to complete it by, you know move some out to the multi coin top ten cryptocurrency basket. That's that kind of crap passes for multi family offices that talk about. Crypto, I mean I've guys, I've seen this and so it's like that's that's asinine and it's not and it's not being a fiduciary serving the best interests of your clients. So the way we approach things is we believe in liquidity for our clients. The vast majority of our clients are illiquid because they've got real estate, they've got Bitcoin or other low basis highly appreciated assets. We're going to a liquid position is really painful. So when they give us an opportunity to help them make new investment decisions, we ask them what they're passionate about. You know, a lot of them are passionate about. You know, non. US development, a lot of them are passionate about AG Tech, a lot of them are passionate about robotics and other stuff like that. Cool. Well we can create, we can create highly liquid non fund stuff. It's like we create baskets of publicly traded. Equities for clients, you can get in, you can get out easy. There is No 2 and 20 carry, there is no 18 month lock up. You know if the market moves you can move, if your position changes you change it. You know we believe in liquidity, we believe in freedom of capital for our clients and we believe in a global perspective. And so you know a lot of what we do is non-us correlated, a lot of it what we do is non-us market, we do do a lot of U.S. market too. But you know we we have no funds to sell. We do not have a 2 and 20 on anything. You know we we think the clients are much better served by you know by liquidity and by keeping options open and by non correlated investments. Yeah, that's why I think it was very savvy undertone I was alluding to about moving out of like the client you reference that had hard physical real estate being able to lend against it and then invest it in cash producing investment so they can have some liquidity. And it's kind of like this framework I've thought about from a financial advisor. And if in a future state, I think that's really where it plays into like how do you navigate the assets appreciation versus what historically it's existed with a 6040 and kind of just like sitting there on your hands, it sounds like you're kind of living in the future in that sense. Well, yeah, and and again, a lot of. What we're thinking is multi jurisdictional, so like if you're a client in California for example. You've got. You're subject to one of the highest state level income taxes in the country. New York is the only one that comes close. And so you know if you're at the top level, I think you get hit a little over 13% on your state level income before you even get to pay Uncle Sam. And so you know, if you imagine that you are this client with a lot of highly appreciated illiquid assets and having a hard time generating income, you know if you do generate income, well now you're just going to be paying. Close to 50. Percent or more than 50% in taxes for your income. So why don't we think about as well how do we generate tax efficient income so we can, again, we can encumber things like real estate. We can go out to the private lending market and get pretty favorable terms even in this current interest rate environment. We've got one of the biggest income investment partners in the world. We've got, we've got some of the biggest private banks, some of the biggest asset custodians in the world that are experts at income investing. So maybe we go into a bunch of triple exempt muni muni bonds in California that are California triple exempt. And so now we're generating, you know, decent returns on income. It's not as sexy as your Bitcoin for sure, but you're but you're not solving for Bitcoin. You have your Bitcoin, you have your real estate, you're solving for income. Well, how do we then solve for income in ways that are meaningful and that are tax, that are tax efficient And so you know, you know maybe you're only getting you know net 3 to 5%, but guess what you're keeping? All of that because it's triple exempt from taxes. So you know give me 3 to 5% income that's not taxable versus 8% that's subject to a 50% tax rate, you know? That that's just kind of the way we see wealth management on the family office side and I think we've got some interesting experience that that makes us different in that space. And so that's you know a lot of what we spent last year on in Bespoke is was building this out. You know, we we have this mantra that we that clients talk about that. We talked that we talked to clients about that. We talked to ourselves. About. We believe that everything should be viewed through the lens of how to own, where to own, and then what to own. We think that if you only focus on what to own, what to invest in, whether it's Bitcoin, whether it's some hedge fund, whether it's real estate, what you own is not nearly as effective and as. Important as how you own it, because if you get double or triple digit returns but you have a plan for succession. When you die. You haven't planned for litigation if you get sued. You haven't planned for divorce if you get divorced while you're looking at a 50 to 100% loss regardless of your market performance. So you got to solve for. How? You own and that by which we mean the structures. Then we solve for where to own. This gets back to the jurisdictional arbitrage question. You know if you own your assets. You may be a California resident, but if you own your assets in a California structure with a California trustee, guess. What it's not? Nearly as protected as if it was in a Wyoming Trust or a South Dakota trust or a Cook Islands Trust or a Switzerland Foundation company or something like that. So we have to think about how you own your assets, where your assets are owned. So what jurisdictions, laws are we using? What custodians are we using? Are they qualified custodians? Do they know what the hell they're doing with those assets? And are there reliable backstops? And only then, Only after we've thought. About how you own and where you own. Do we really start to care about what it is that you own? Whether it's Bitcoin, real estate, muni bonds, gold, you know, and gold I call gold. Just analog Bitcoin. That's all it is spoken like a a true bit corner in the first principles of how you own it. Like if you you could say that for that goes the same for Bitcoin. It's like if you own it, but it's not FTX, like what did it, What good did it do? Yeah, yeah. And then FTX, you know, shits the market because they've got to unload all their GBTC on a, you know on any given Tuesday. And so it's like, yeah, it's like then you become whipsawed by, you know, can't get with. Party yet? If you if you were unfortunate enough to have your assets on FTX and then you're you know, so now you're unsecured creditor in a bankruptcy claim, you're lucky to get pennies on the dollar there. And then coming out of the bankruptcy they have to start dumping their GBTC holdings, you know. Meanwhile you've been privately stacking your sats and putting in qualified custody or collaborative custody or whatever and then FTX and Alameda dump their GBTC on the market. Now you you take a market hit. It's like, it's like, you know, kick me in the nuts and then turn around and kick me in the nuts again. Yeah, there's a lot of landmines out there. Yeah, it's all of yours. If life is complicated, guys, I mean, it's just it's complicated and we don't like to think about it that way, but it is I. Can't help but think about like I feel like most wealth managers or anyone who's sort of in in a similar role as as you Matt in the Fiat world they're thinking 6040 portfolio how to how to have like the Bogglehead approach to investing and you know and managing your variables in that Fiat sense. But what you're talking about is like a totally different approach to optimizing that comes from like having first gone through the the Bitcoin through the looking glass, right, like you're you're on the other side of it, you're in the Bitcoin land and you're establishing what works and what what are the important considerations from like there's Bitcoin in my world point of view. And it's such a stark difference of when you're dealing with any business that knows about Bitcoin versus a a pre coin of business. You know, people who are still in the Fiat world and they're still thinking in those terms. And I think, you know, I think our audience is Bitcoiners through and through and we've all started to realize that in our world. So I think of like you you end up aligning with the vision of people you're working with who think with Bitcoin as part of you know this the the equation and and the the when you're dealing with people who don't have Bitcoin as part of the equation it's incompatible with how you think and what you know is important and what you want to solve for. And so like we're we're living in this early world of like there are service providers who have Bitcoin built into how they do business and how they think and how they solve problems for you as a client. And then there are people still in the old world, and it's it's just so stark sometimes. It it is. I think the 6040 narrative in the wealth management space is shifting. There's a, you know, there's a much broader conversation going on about this, you know, dramatically low interest rate environment that we've seen for decades now is just not normal and clearly not healthy for economies. You know everything is like, you know, everything is still risk on, you know, should things really still be risk on. But they are, I think unfortunately a shift that has taken place in the wealth management industry that I've seen in the last six or seven years or so is what I was alluding to earlier about everybody's got their. Special purpose vehicle. Or their LP fund du jour that you know, you know their fund of funds type of thing because everybody wants to get out on the lucrative 2 and 20 game. You know, devil may care what it means to the clients overall portfolio. Sometimes they're big winners. A lot of them are turds and either way the fund managers often are the ones that that make out the most on that and unfortunately again that's that's often what passes for wealth management. We see it in multi family offices, you know from coast to coast. That does seem almost uniquely AUS based thing, not entirely, but it seems like it really dominates the US family office or multi family office world. These MF OS aren't really Mfos, they're hedge fund shops and they've got their pet fund and they are just dying to get you to invest their, you know your $100,000 into their pet fund if they're going to look for any reason to make you to induce you to do that. What we have modeled ourselves after at Bespoke is much more of an old world kind of European wealth management type of model, where it really is consultative or you have a fiduciary obligation to your clients where you know your interests are aligned and that you don't have products to sell. What you sell is your best ideas and what you sell is your creative thinking and you know, hopefully that will begin to take root in the United States. We have a lot of interest from other money managers here in the US that are interested in the model that we built and that's encouraging. I think they kind of see us as a funky skunk works to see if we, you know, live or die by this model. But for us, you know, because bespoke evolved out of, you know, bunch of, you know, grizzled old estate planners who, you know, think the world is, you know better when people have predictable outcomes, you know, we're just different. And so I do think the narrative is starting to change. I think that bitcoiners are becoming increasingly mature in how they view the asset and how they view the world. And I'm I'm heartened by the number of OG bitcoiners that I get to talk to from time to time who who realize, you know, back when this was just kind of, you know, magic Internet money. You know, I wasn't really that concerned about it. But now I realize that, you know, I I was fortunate enough to have a front row seat at this transformational technology that has manifested a ton of of wealth. And for for a lot of these folks that for the vast majority of them, that wealth has been transformational. They didn't come from money. They just, you know, they made it in Bitcoin. A lot of them did. And a lot of them are profoundly humble about that. These aren't the dudes driving Lambos and, you know, flying, flying around on the citation of the Gulfstream. I mean, these are, these are guys, these are men and women who still work because they're called to work. They raise their kids with a mind towards stewardship. Often they're members of a faith community and they take that very seriously and they want to give back not just because there's, you know, tax benefits to give them back, but because they feel like, you know, they can use their. Wealth to make the world a better place. And those are the people that we have the luxury of being able to work with increasingly. And bitcoiners I think are are a special breed because again, I I talked about it earlier. You know, we we have this Longview. We have a, we have a long horizon that expands well beyond our own lifetimes. You know we we envision a world that's a better world for our kids than the world we inherited maybe. And we we see often that governments and sometimes society writ large works at odds like you know with with that view. But we want to do the best we can to help our children and the people that we care about become the the most is the very best. Versions of themselves, we. Want to make our communities better? And a lot of, you know, a lot of Bitcoiners, you know, decide that they want to use some of that wealth that they feel fortunate enough to have been really at the vanguard of, to maybe shift the, you know, shift the evolution of their community in in a meaningful way, whether again, it's a faith community or a geographic community or a global community. Yeah, beautifully, beautifully said. I mean, it's so good to hear that O GS are thinking that way like that, that it's really a great relief to know that people who have have in many cases stumbled into tremendous Bitcoin wealth because they, you know, plugged in a computer in 2010 have this sense of responsibility to not just their family, but their community and the world at large. It's the goodness and and and I don't think that's any accident. I think it the reality of it is that people who were drawn to Bitcoin in the early days were you know principled people who hoped that this project would work because it presented you know a better a better form of money for society and a sound a return to sound money and and you know and then they end up working with an old European old model wealth manager because that was the the model in the in the gold standard era right. Like it's all it's all returning us back to an an era of a world where there's sound economics at the heart of everything and and traditional values as part of that and and you know through all all of this Matt you know first I guess I want to say that people should reach out to Matt or if if it feels like their particular circumstances are are fit with Matt's businesses because I know I know I would if I was in that that position but I'm not. And then I want to add on top of that that you know this has been these themes have been percolating for on ramp of how do you prepare your circumstances for the future. For inheritance, for making, for allowing your Bitcoin wealth that you're setting aside now, not consuming now. To grow into something that you and your family can use to make the world a better place in, in all the ways that the O GS are are doing now or thinking about now. Like hopefully Bitcoin adopters who are sitting on not an OG stack, but you know an early adopter stack are are fortunate enough to be thinking about these things 10 years from now 20. Years from now can I make two? I know we're running along, but we make. I'd like to make two specific examples from either active clients that I have. One is a single person who I I met them with 10,000 Bitcoin. Biggest one yet I've seen individual and this individual had no planning in place. They were resident of a high tax jurisdiction and just had some some drama in their lives through a series of conversations. That client who their basis in their Bitcoin was $5.00 so OG. That's OG wealth. And so imagine 10,000 bitcoins. That you bought for $5 each. Oh, to have that. Opportunity. You know, this person has a real heart for people who have had severe domestic violence meted out against them, people who have been trafficked, whether it's here in the US or abroad. And so that client. Has put scores of millions of dollars worth of Bitcoin into the creation of a center in California. That's a brick and mortar center with a full staff of people who are serving individuals who have been trafficked, sometimes trafficked by their own spouse or their own partner, sometimes trafficked by strangers. And this is and this funded. 100% by Bitcoin, 100%. And so we're talking, gosh, I want to say it's probably about 40 million now that's been poured through the foundation and the various charitable devices that are funding this. And so that's that's one example. That we've had the good fortune of being front row participants and helping that come to life and that's a bitcoiner OG bitcoiner. The other example I would give OG bitcoiners thousands of Bitcoin, but feel like, you know they are blessed beyond belief in the opportunity that Bitcoin gave them. And these are people of faith and they're, they're they're people of a minority faith here in the United States and people of of minority faith, its roots are overseas in the Middle East and they're bringing up their children with traditional. It's a it's a form of Orthodox Christianity, and they feel very strongly that this is part of who they are and this is part of who they want their children to be. But one of the challenges that that tradition is facing is that so much of the liturgy and so much of the Scripture is in an ancient language. And so you go to this liturgy and you're a little kid. Trying to follow. Along with what the priests are talking about, you have no clue what they're saying because you've never learned that language. So a lot of what they want to do, and a lot of what they're dedicating millions of dollars worth of Bitcoin to solve for, is translating these ancient Orthodox Christian liturgies and scriptures into English. So that not just their children, but generations of children that will follow can grow up in the traditions that are so meaningful to these people and to these clients and to their community. And it's a gift that they feel. Humbled and honored to be a part of and true to the Bit Corners ethos, you'll never know who these people are. You know, they they they're not doing it for. Fame. They're not doing it, you know for accolades. They they are so humble that they want everything to be anonymous. And so a lot of what we help them think through is, OK, how do we, how do we do this so that nobody knows where the money comes from. You know, Anonymous Benefactor is giving you this. Here are your benchmarks to perform against and if you perform against those benchmarks. More will be forthcoming. And so those are Bitcoin O GS who are, because of the blessing they perceive Bitcoin has been to them. They're making the world a better place and they're impacting the lives of real people, underprivileged people. And they will. They will. Change. They will change a generation. And that's you talk about something that gets me out of bed in the morning, that's what gets me out of bed in the morning is because I get to work with bitcoiners who see the world that way. And while everything else seems to be going to hell around them, they know that the wealth that they have made through risk taking, through savvy investing, through huddling, through terrible markets, they've they've made it. But it's not just for me. It's not just for consumption. It's not just to put my kids through the best private schools and to have a whole bunch of spoiled brats who have no appreciation for this wealth that we made as a family. It's about making the biggest impact quietly, you know, in in a meaningful way that that can change the world and these, these people. Are changing the world. Yeah, I think it's it's beautiful. It's, it reminds me of Maslow's pyramid for some reason of like, you know, wealth is is a hierarchy of needs. You got to take care of yourself. You got to, you have to put a roof over your head and you got to take care of yourself. Then you got to take care of your immediate family, your extended family, your community, then the world and you know moving, moving up that and the O GS are already in this wonderful position where they get to think about those high level things of how do I want to move with an invisible hand to help shape the world of the future. And hopefully a lot of us, a lot of our audience is in that position 20 years from now, 30 years from now, just by holding on to this asset that could become very significant in purchasing power over the next few decades. But along the way, right starts small, like planning for that future starts by what's the next rung on the on the hierarchy that I should be factoring in to how I'm planning for my Bitcoin wealth and how it moves through through time into the future. And for most of us, certainly for me, that next step is how do I make sure that my family is protected and educated about this asset that that, you know, Matt, you were talking earlier about such an important part of passing Bitcoin wealth on to the next generation is making sure that that everyone involved knows what the hell they're holding and why it's valuable. And, you know, you want to protect against that possibility of somebody just receiving this beneficiary, receiving this windfall and market selling because it's against the legacy of what you were trying to do by building that wealth. And and you know, so education is, is a core part of what has to happen for a family to steward Bitcoin wealth through time, through generations. And so you know I'm focused on how do I make sure that my family is protected and educated for you know in the event that I get hit by a bus. And that's one of the the things that on ramp has been focused on recently. And you know we've now crystallized our our our suite of offerings focused on individuals and and you know I guess we can sort of announce here to the audience that we have on ramp heritage as a as a suite of services that we're providing to you as an individual who is looking to make sure that your Bitcoin wealth has a clear beneficiary and and process in place if in the event of your death. And of course this is part of multi institution custody which protects you and your family in life as well because it solves for the wrench attack and and so many other possible problems with self custody or third party custody. So you know we want to make sure that that Bitcoin wealth is propagating through time without with as as little risk as possible and and that multi institution custody is a core part of that. And then a huge part of this is making sure that your family members, your beneficiaries are learning and a part of the journey with you. And so that's you know part of the the the process that we have in place in place the the product for on ramp heritage for those of you out there who are you know sitting on few 100,000 in Bitcoin or maybe it's several million and not yet at at the echelons where where Matt is the guy you should be talking to come talk to us. And and we'd love to share with you what what we have for helping propagate your Bitcoin wealth through time through through generations and seamlessly to the next generation so that you can solve for that thing that keeps you up at night as we as we know so many bit corners. But there's that little nagging thing that pops up at midnight or 2:00 AM and and that you know causes you to not sleep quite as well as you as you would like knowing that the future is so bright otherwise. And so it's an exciting part about what we've been building at on ramp recently and would love to share that with whoever's been kept up at night by these questions. Yeah, that's really well said. I think one thing to add and and Matt alluded to it, it's like these numbers are not binary in the sense when you're setting up with Matt like an estate plan or revocable, irrevocable trust you're you're moving over in increments of what you feel comfortable with. And one of the things that we learned after talking with folks when it comes to whether they're in self custody, third party custody, whatever they've gotten comfortable with, they see a model of custody that's interesting. They don't know how interesting it is in the perspective of what is the allocation. And so this idea of, well, one of the OR one of the ideas is for an individual that knows that they want to make sure some portion of this moves over without an unencumbered to a beneficiary. And then there's other additional things that could be, you know, layered on top from, you know, services to support from a legal perspective and consultation perspective to get them the right whether it's irrevocable, revocable, trust reviewing of documents. But this core idea, there's been significant trade-offs in our mind for the past 15 years in Bitcoin where you think about how do you pass this stuff on. You either leave it on a third party exchange and you hope that they're around when you pass which historically for the past 15 years outside of like Coinbase you know the longevity and a bit go more often than not that that firm's not around. And then on the other side of it and this is like direct anecdotes from clients. It's like we're building this directly for individuals is they say that they created these these you know solutions. But the idea of that having to leave a treasure map for their family to to find the the money is just as wealth gets more sophisticated it's come up more and more as a like a a point And so yeah really excited for this and I think the Heritage name we got a quote we we like to honor and family. It was a little bit too, too straightforward. Brian Cabela's with his you know his savviness was honor imperitage. And the idea really is outside of the core. You get to add other individuals that you want to learn about this in a sophisticated way. So we're starting a whole fundamental series and every month we'll send out a piece and then we'll do an actual private office hours. We've been doing private office hours as probably shouldn't have said on the air, but we've been doing private office hours for for clients in their network. And this will be a part of it where anybody that's you know tied in or will do the the fundamental piece and then we'll do a close kind of Chatham House Rules conversation around an expert talk about that piece. And it's really to forward to the folks that you've been wanting to learn about it but maybe don't feel comfortable and asking the questions to you or they just need to hear. Everybody knows that people are generally tired of hearing it from us about Bitcoin, but they're open to hearing it from a third party. And so that's really meant to be a forum to just help facilitate, propagate a lot of these concepts. So yeah, really excited about this. Yeah, yeah, that that's a little bit about what we've been working on here. And and Matt, thank you so much for, for sharing everything. You know, again, your perspective on all this is just so fascinating and deep and well informed from the Bitcoin perspective. And I find it so valuable. And I know our audience does too. I mean you guys are the best. I mean I really am huge fans of you guys. Really appreciate everything that you guys are doing for the Bitcoin community. There's there's nobody like you guys honestly. So I'm all. I mean it's truly I'm humbled and honored to be invited back to the extent I can add value to what you guys are building and the audience you know don't hesitate to reach out. I love what you guys are building and really and just. Really hat off to everything you guys do. It's, yeah, it should. Be fine. I think we're good. I was gonna say this has been an extremely uplifting conversation. I think the whole topic of stewardship and imbuing that knowledge to your pro Jenny, and hopefully they can do that to their kids as well. It's extremely virtuous and Madam still. Taken aback by a couple of examples that you shared earlier, it is extremely encouraging. It makes me even more optimistic that there are already people out there like that and that with on ramp heritage and what you're doing at Bespoke you're you're really helping people to think that way. Which is I think a lot of why we're here in Bitcoin is to try to reorient people's thinking towards long term thinking and stewarding not only their wealth but their communities and in the world at large. So this great way to end a Tuesday day of work here. Awesome. Love it. Thank you again, Matt. Thanks, Matt. We'll see you guys next week.