Transcript+
Before we get into the episode, a quick reminder that this podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes only and nothing should be construed as investment or legal advice. If you are enjoying On RAMP media content, please like subscribe and share as it goes a long way in helping others find the signal through the noise. Now for a word from on RAMP. On RAMP is a Bitcoin asset management platform built on multi institution custody leveraging our partnership with Bit Go and their 10 plus year track record in securing assets and Coincover, the premier digital asset risk mitigation company on ramps. Multi institution custody is a segregated institutional grade vault requiring two of three institutions at any point in time to sign once a client's unique permissions have been met at on RAMP we understand that your Bitcoin journey is a multi generational pursuit catalyzed by the ideals of perseverance, aspiration and legacy. That's why we're proud to introduce on RAMP Heritage, a suite of private client services dedicated to ensuring your Bitcoin legacy is preserved and passed on, embodying the true essence of wealth that goes beyond mere numbers. If you would like to learn more, please schedule a consultation. What you're telling me is that music is about to stop and we're going to be left holding the biggest bag of odorous extremism ever assembled in the history of Darkness. 1974, 198792972000. And whatever you want to call this, it's all just the same thing over and over. We can't help ourselves. I say when we sell. I say when we. Sell. All right. Well, welcome to this week's edition of The Last Trade. A little bit different format today Marty is it was unavailable for this for this time in the end. So I'm going to pretend to be Marty as as the the pseudo host of the show today. And also this week we have Michael Tanguma, our Co host is is out for a family engagement. So Mitch is joining us, is in Michael's place and our guest today is Michael Goldstein otherwise known as Bitstein, who's a bit of a meme legend and and I guess curator of important Austrian economics and Bitcoin thinking and writing via the Satoshi Nakamoto Institute. So I'm super excited to have Bitstein here today. Haven't figured out if I'm going to call him Bitstein or Michael. It's going to be a tough one for me since I've only known him as Bitstein on Twitter. But before we get into that, Mitch, how are how are things for you? What's new with you lately? I think you have some news for our audience. Yes, I've been on the show a few times when I was working at Bitco, but I I've joined on ramp to be Chief Revenue Officer. It's been been incredible last few weeks you know working on this side of the business after helping build you know the the core infrastructure of on ramp at Bitco but mostly just wanted to be spending my time helping make a multi institution custody of the standard and focusing my energy to to make that a reality. So it's been a privilege, yeah. We're we're super excited to have Mitch on board and I think Mitch like like the rest of the team at on RAMP has gotten gotten hooked by the idea of what multi institution custody can can do, can do for Bitcoin can be for the world and and and what it can represent for this new era of Bitcoin finance and all the possibilities that come out of it. So you know Mitch has the bug like the rest of us at on RAMP do and super excited to have you Mitch appreciate that. All right. So today we have Michael Goldstein. And Michael, I'll let you, I'll let you introduce yourself. You'll do a better job than me of all the all the things that you are have done over the years for Bitcoin and what you're working on these days. If you want to dip into that too. Yeah. The the, the man, the myth, the legend, the the best memes, the best meme videos in all of Bitcoin. If you haven't seen them, you probably have seen them and you may not have realized that they're from Bitstein. But Michael, welcome to the show. Hi, Marty. Yeah. Thanks for having me on. No, Jesse, Yeah. No thank you for the the, the, the kind introduction. Yeah, my name is Michael Goldstein. I've, I've been known as Bitstein for about a decade now I guess. But yeah, in Bitcoin, what have I done? Mostly just sit around and post on Twitter. But yeah, I, I, I founded the Satoshi Nakamoto Institute in 2013 as a way to curate, as you said, the sort of best ideas in in Bitcoin and the different intellectual traditions that went into either making Bitcoin what it was or allowing us to sort of best understand what Bitcoin is. And so that's drawing from the the cypherpunks and the crypto anarchists that preceded Bitcoin. It comes from the Austrian economic tradition, which I think is the the sort of best economic school of thought for being able to make sense of Bitcoin thanks to its incredibly brilliant and robust monetary policy or not monetary policy, monetary theory. And so I I that's that's what I've done. That's actually been that that was in rather a bit of a dormant state for a number of years. But recently with the growth of Bitcoin and watching Bitcoin actually do what we always thought it would has inspired me to take it on much more seriously. So we've now formed A5O1C3 tax exempt nonprofit as a vehicle for expanding the Satoshi Nakamoto as it is is instituted as it is today into hopefully a premier world class educational. Platform Fantastic. Got it. And for for those who so I wasn't around in 2013, I came. I arrived in the scene in 20/16/2017 and the people that had been inspired by Bitcoin in the in the years before I arrived it sort of seemed to me that there were a few different channels where they like either got orange peeled or or found the rabbit hole however you want to describe it and and it seemed to me that those main categories were either Andreas videos maybe using Silk Road or perhaps they were they were originally a cypherpunk and so then stumbled into it through through that Channel. But then the last big category was the Satoshi Nakamoto Institute and the the Compendium of information that you and and Pierre Richard put together to present the case in a coherent framework for why this thing makes sense and what and what it what it is really. Because I think you can speak to this, Michael, of back then I I don't think most people engaging with Bitcoin understood that Bitcoin was digital gold in the spirit of Austrian economics and that that still had to be sort of surfaced and bubbled up to the top in terms of how people thought about Bitcoin and how it fit into the world. Is that a fair characterization? I think I think there's some truth to it. So we were certainly not the only and certainly not the first to talk about Bitcoin and Austrian economics. If you really go dive deep into the the the old history of you know Bitcoin talk forum and and such, you'll find plenty of people discussing various ideas in Austrian economics. What I think that I think we're we're we're among the first to do I think more systematic analysis of like actually trying to breakdown concepts in Austrian the Austrian theory of money and relate it to Bitcoin and show how how nicely Austrian economics can explain Bitcoin and also what that means for the future of Bitcoin. We were heavily inspired by pre-existing literature. So there is a a wonderful master's thesis by by a man named Peter Serta on the economics of Bitcoin and he did a great job laying out all all these sorts of concepts and in many ways a lot of our our stuff is kind of lifted from from what we learned from from him. So we we were not the the first but we were the ones. I think we we were probably the most vocal and shall I say like Hardline you know on on that topic. Yeah. And and so so we can I guess now dig into my favorite piece of yours and and probably the the piece you're best known for which is everyone's A scammer which is a fantastic title. First of all it really makes the sorry that's my dog. Anyway, I think that's a a fantastic title and an even better article and Michael, I'd love to hear your explanation of of where that came from. I guess the the the short synopsis of what of what that article makes the point about. And then in particular, I'm very curious to see if that has stood the test of time in your views has was it predictive of of the continuing trends in Bitcoin and crypto? Yes. So everyone's a scammer is actually one of the few articles I've written that people like it so much that they think I've written much more than I have. So I wrote that in September of 2014. So it was a little after I had gotten out of college, which, you know, college. College was a wonderful time, not because college education is worth it, but because quite the opposite. It gave me way too much free time which allowed me to deep dive into Bitcoin and and these topics. And it was in that time we had a group called the Mesi Circle, which is sort of the proceeding organization to the Satoshi Nakamoto Institute and that it was an Austrian economics reading group I had founded to just dive into all kinds of random topics. When we learned about Bitcoin it, it quickly became the Bitcoin circle and that's where a lot of this, this thought was, was fomenting. So over the course of 20/13/2014 was when the bulk of our sort of economic analysis was, you know, put together and like really just how how to think about Bitcoin and further why we think Bitcoin is going to go to the moon and why, you know, even even in early 2013, as soon as we as soon as we learned about Bitcoin, there was this feeling it's like, OK, well this is clearly the greatest money ever. So it's going to replace the, the Federal Reserve. Let's get on it with all of that in mind. You know by by end of 2014 there was this feeling it's like if if everything we're saying is true about Bitcoin and its potential, you know there are there are no back seas in Bitcoin because let me step back, Bitcoin is is destined to become the global reserve currency. What that means is like at the time the the price was I I guess that may have been around the the top bubble so we could even call it as much as $1000. That is well below what the final price would be expected, would be expected to be if Bitcoin became the global reserve currency. And it is that this this time period that we live in is a very unique one in that we don't experience very much in history the rapid monetization of a new good. And our place in that history needs to be taken seriously because it only happens this once. This is a sort of once in AI mean with Bitcoin you know it's arguable that this is a once in humanity event. You know that that's the extremely bullish case but you know that's that's very well possible. So it needs to be taken seriously. And so everyone's a scammer was a was was basically about taking that very seriously and taking your long term vision of Bitcoin very seriously at the time, just as there is today. There is this view, but I think it was even stronger back then because there wasn't as much there. There wasn't as much meaning around like there there was no stacking sats. Meme huddle was still a a new meme. Obviously people knew to hold. But, you know, a lot of these memes that we take for granted today that, you know, tell us to stay humble, sex hats and all that, that didn't exist at the time. And a lot of people were under the belief that in order to make Bitcoin become the global reserve currency, you need to start spending it. So you need to go, you know, you need to go find merchants and you need to be giving them your bitcoins in order to, you know, get the get the economy going and spur adoption and such. And we had written a number of articles that presented a a different way of thinking about this. So there's another one with a provocative title of I'm hoarding Bitcoin. And no, you can't have any or or something along those lines. And it was pushing it back against this idea saying that actually, what what drives Bitcoin in the big picture has more to do with the increasing reserve demand. You know, just like demand to hold Bitcoin rather than the trading itself. And in fact, when you're when you're selling Bitcoin, which is effectively what spending Bitcoin is, you are now stating to the market that I value Bitcoin less than what it whatever it is that you're buying. There can be incidental, you know, benefits to adoption when this happens. So maybe a merchant who accepts Bitcoin will be a more steadfast hobbler than you are. But if that's the case, then they're kind of scamming you in the sense that they've gotten you to believe that they or at least they've like enabled your belief that you should want, you know, a Lambo instead of Bitcoins for, you know, longer into the future. Because once again it's like well if bitcoins, I guess today it's you know, 66,000, if in the future it's going to be 10 million, that represents a very large opportunity cost. So yeah, basically the the article was a way to kind of you know in a in a somewhat cheeky fashion look at all of these all of these ways in which people might find themselves putting their short term interests ahead of their long term interests. And the heuristic of everyone's a scammer was was meant as a way to kind of use your long term interest as the default and just assume if someone wants my sets, they're probably just like they're just scamming me out of my sets because I care more about my my long term interest. Now that doesn't mean that there's not, you know, a reason why you might want to actually spend your Bitcoin. But you have to keep that in mind very seriously because of that fact that there's no back seas once you've spent it is it is unclear that you will ever be able to get those that that amount of satoshi's back because you know, we don't, we don't know when the price is going to go up at a meteoric rate it it could happen tomorrow. And so you really have to think carefully, carefully about how you engage with the Bitcoin economy. And that's that's basically the the, the purpose of the article. Yeah, it does. It's so effective in in flipping people's natural thought process about, you know, trying to make more dollars, but, you know, by speculating on Bitcoin and instead flip it into no, this is the this is the gold rush, this is the land grab, this is the the, the thing you want to end up with. And I think that actually I think it was inspired me in part for when I wrote Bitcoin in the American West which I I you know did a did a deep dive into how the development of the Bitcoin frontier is sort of tracking the same sort of trajectory that the American West. The development of the American West over you know the 150 years post the Louisiana Purchase also also followed. And you know the core theme there is that that that's ultimately a land grab right where you're people who see the opportunity in the in the American West go and stake a claim and you know we we get we got memes out of that era too of go West young man is sort of the equivalent to stay humble and stacks ATS in my opinion because it's ultimately just good advice in an era in a in a time when the world is changed because of a new a new frontier a new asset landscape that people should should seize the opportunity of and it yeah weirdly I have to credit your your piece for sort of inspiring that like gold rush mindset of of here's the right way to engage with how to think about Bitcoin from a personal. Financial perspective and then importantly how that game theory plays out of like it's ultimately a competition you're you're we're in a global competition right now for staking a claim to Bitcoin and you know folks like entities like MicroStrategy are, are are the ones that understand that and most of the world is still sleeping on it. What I I really appreciate about sort of like pieces of the piece and it it's a couple years before, but it does strike some of the nerves that ended up I'd say impacting the block size war and the clash of store value versus medium of exchange and the use cases there and ultimately if the infrastructure would change on block side to facilitate medium of exchange better compared to store value. So I think, you know it was a couple years early and and noticing that. Yeah on on that theme Michael. So I think this is one of the like the harder things to to wrap your head around if you're coming from the like classical Keynesian understanding of money that a new monetary good has a path dependent trajectory from collectible to store value to medium of of exchange to unit of account. And and you, you have to go in that order in order for it to become to to to make it to that next stage. And I think that that's actually something explored well in in Shelling out, which I read on the Satoshi Nakamoto Institute. I wouldn't have found it otherwise. And that one sure sure hit me hard was that something was that idea of like a path dependency of a monetary good understood like in the Bitcoin space at all back then. It sort of feels like it's still not well understood that in, in my opinion, medium of exchange and like getting getting businesses to accept Bitcoin kind of doesn't matter at this point. And that's because I'm such an adherent to the idea that Bitcoin's big use cases store a value and being a savings technology that allows people to store store their purchasing power today and and have it grow over time in purchasing power because of increasing scarcity from the reduction of block the block subsidy. But in 2013, fourteen did the Bitcoin community have this idea of of from the Austrian world yet of the path dependence of the new monetary good? Well I'll I'll start off by saying it's like I don't, I don't fully agree with that way of conceptualizing it. I think that there's a lot of I think there's a lot of truths in it but I don't know that it's necessarily I I I don't know if that's actually the the totally correct way to to to frame everything but there there's a lot of language in there that I think has to be sort of sussed out and and parsed and and and such. But to really nail it down, with that being said, I I I do think that, you know, in the past there really was this very strong I feeling among bitcoiners that you got to be spending Bitcoin, we got to get merchants involved and so on and so forth. I I was basically the same like I remember in 2013, anywhere I'd go and say, hey, do you accept Bitcoin? Do you accept Bitcoin? And, you know, it never worked. And you know, there's no reason for them to be accepting Bitcoin for a variety of reasons, especially just not having any clue what it is 'cause if you have to think like today, everyone knows what Bitcoin is, or at least like they in the sense that they've heard the word and they know that it's some kind of digital money thing. In 2013, if you said, hey, do you accept Bitcoin, the most common response you would get is I What is that? Like? People have literally never heard of it. And so that that that is something to to to to know about the difference between then and now. But yeah, at the same time, yeah. So there was a lot of people who were, you know, gung ho on, you know, trying to get merchants to accept it because that's that's how you know something's and money is because people are spending it to to buy things. And you know, colloquially people call that medium of exchange. I I think that these words are somewhat misleading in the sense that a a medium of exchange is not based on specifically the thing that you're handing over during a trade per SE. Because like it just as an example, is you. When you go to a store and you swipe a Visa card, you are not handing over dollars, you are handing over like a Visa database transaction or something and dollars get settled later. So the medium of exchange in a in a praxeological sense. So in the the study of human action medium of exchange is more precisely defined as a good acquired for the purposes of indirect exchange. It is it is a good that you acquire not because you want to use it yourself or not because you want to consume it or or put it to work, you know as as some capital, but because specifically you believe it's a good that others are going to want that you can then use to trade them for what you need, you know. And of course there's all the you know double coincidence of want stuff that I'm sure your listeners are are aware of. And so when people talk about medium of exchange versus store value, I I tend to in my head the way I think about it is, is not medium of exchange versus store value, but more method of payment versus you know savings vehicle. And I view those like method of payment is just a specific technical way that you're transferring medium a a medium of exchange and store value. You don't literally store value. You can't, you can't like you know value is not this quantifiable metric or like a thing per SE. That's like I'm going to go put value in this box and it's going to stay there and when I come back it'll be the same value and stuff. Store of value is more of a, it is a a shorthand that is used to describe a lot of market dynamics that goes into, you know a good a medium of exchange. I tend to think about it more in terms of a medium of exchange over the long run. So the reason we have a medium of exchange is because we're uncertain about the future. We don't know. We don't know what's best right now. You know, I could, I could go invest in this. So I could go invest in that. I don't know. I'm going to hold on to money because that way when I see something that actually, you know suits what I need at this moment, I will have the good that is most likely to be accepted on the other side to to to be able to to to spend and acquire that good. So store value is asking the question of when I look at the different potential media of exchange that exists, everything from wampum to cows to shells to gold to dollars to Bitcoin. When I look at that, what are the media of exchange or the specific medium of exchange that I believe will have the most demand in the future when I want to use this thing. And so there's there's a sort of speculative aspect to all of that is there's a speculative aspect to to all of human action. But when you're acquiring a a good and you're acquiring it for the long run, you're effectively that is what we kind of call a store of value because it's like you're you're thinking about what will the value be of this well into the future in the marketplace such that this can presumably allow me to acquire whatever it is that I might need in the future that I don't know yet. So the I I don't really see that that path dependency only because at least in those terms because I I think that they're describing just the functions of money as you're always using money. I think that even today you know we have Bitcoin as a medium of exchange because I I acquire my Bitcoin for the purposes of indirect exchange. It's just not indirect exchange today. It's a quote store of value because of that very fact that I'm thinking about my indirect exchange into the future. So I'm choosing to hold the medium of exchange that I I think will best suit that need. Not just not just tomorrow, not just 1/4 from now, but ten years, 100 years down the line and then unit of account. We also have on the Nakamoto Institute a an article called Bitcoin is the best unit of account and it's about how and this was written in 2013. It already is the best unit of account and you don't have to go through this process. That process is more of the process of everyone realizing that it's the best unit of account because on an individual level, what is a unit of account? A unit of account is me doing my accounting books. You know taking stock of what are all the what are all the things I own, what are the all the liabilities I own, what is my cash flow and and so on and so forth. You know, basically running, running a business, whether it's as a personal finance matter or as an organizational business. And when you Add all those things up, there's a question there, which is how do I denominate this? And in the United States and in a lot of the world, people denominate in dollars. It would be very silly of me to start denominating in pesos. I I probably would not do very well in the United States if I was, if I was doing it that way. But I could. So people have to ask what do I want to denominate? Because profit and loss ultimately is a is a psychological thing. Anything can be profitable if you prefer it, given you know the subjective nature of value and such. So with with unit of account you are making the decision of how do I want to count up my profit and loss, how do I want to determine how I'm doing economically. So everyone today and all the way since since January 3rd, 2009 has had the choice of do I want to use dollars or Bitcoin as a unit of account. Now at the very beginning Bitcoin probably would not have been a good unit of account because there wasn't even a price attached to it in the marketplace, so you would have no way of of doing that accounting. But ever since, you know, 2010 or so, there has been a price and you can do accounting. And ever since that moment, if you chose to look at all of your economic activity and price it in Bitcoin and make the decision of today, I want to have more Bitcoin on the books than I had yesterday instead of the typical I want more dollars on the books than I had yesterday. Anyone who's done that and done it with a a long term view in mind you know four to five years into the future at least all of those people have have done tremendously well relative to had they chosen the dollar as a unit of account. So in that sense it's like unit of account is not the capstone except in terms of for the other person that you're trading with how how much can you expect them to also be using Bitcoin as a unit of account for for themselves. So there's a bit of that distinction there of looking at it from the individual perspective, which I think all of those sort of functions, so to speak are already present in Bitcoin. To looking at it from a network perspective of what is it that we can sort of expect the economy as a whole, just the general economy to be looking at regarding this. The other important thing there, it's sorry, I I see that you're like opening your mouth. It's. It's fantastic stuff. Yeah. OK. OK. So I'll I'll I'll continue the the other sort of important thing here and and what was motivating us back then is like OK guys I you know you're you're saying it's a land grab and it's definitely it's it is it is a kind of of land grab and it's like you have this one choice you know this one shot you know Eminem's getting you know all the Eminem quotes in there you you want to make sure you get it right. With that in mind, if you recognize Bitcoin as such, you've you've studied it, you see Bitcoin a certain way and you make the the entrepreneurial judgement based on your knowledge of how money works, based on on the the current situation of the the economy, etcetera, etcetera. If you've come to the entrepreneurial judgement that Bitcoin is so good of a money that you think everyone's going to want some to and they're going to use it as their medium of exchange in the future to the point where it's a global reserve asset and so on and so forth. If that's your view of Bitcoin, then obviously you are indeed going to want to grab a lot of land. And you're not. You're you're going to go out into the West and you're not just going to grab, you know, the, you know, 40 acres. You're going to try to grab, you know, a whole territory. And so a lot of the arguments around, you know, so-called Bitcoin maximalism, which we effectively, in a in a sense, championed. It wasn't. It wasn't named. It was. It was. It was named as a sort of pejorative. Point. Of view. But you know, what I've always argued over the years is that it's more descriptive than it is prescriptive. It's not, you know, saying like, oh, you must do this. It's more, I believe people are going to have these ideas about Bitcoin and that Bitcoin as an economic good is going to have a given performance such that people are simply going to want to hold it more than more than they're want going to want to give it up. And this is something if you, if you go into the literature, you know Ludwig von Mises talks about this, Karl Menger talks about this. When a good is being identified as a medium of exchange, like a a sort of new medium exchange on the market, entrepreneurs are going to want to hoard a larger amount than they otherwise would because of this sort of speculative entrepreneurial judgement of what the future holds. And so that is the process of what we've we've seen and also the one that you're probably going to want to make you know choices based on and and why everyone's a scammer if they're trying to get in your way of of getting there. So yeah, so I, I, I actually sort of disagree just to to sum that up, I, I kind of disagree with that particular way of at least the the labels around the past dependency. I don't think that they're as as clear as they should. And you know that also puts it on me to to try to come up with a a better way of of really nailing that down with the economic terminology and concepts. But at the same time the basic argument that you're making that the the market we would expect it to want to hold more than be you know spending. I I fully agree with that and I think these are the reasons. Why that's fantastic. Yeah I I loved all the nuance in there and I think I think ultimately we're we're on the same page there it and it is around the labels specifically like I agree that I think that objectively Bitcoin is the best store value the best medium of exchange and the best unit of account. And I think in many ways to be a Bitcoin maximalist is to recognize that sort of how you how you talked about it of to be a Bitcoin maximalist is to adopt Bitcoin as your unit of account fundamentally and. That's. A recognition of it is objectively the best unit of account that I could use. And that means that we are as Bitcoin maximalist, who knows how many of us there are in the world. Maybe there's 100,000 that might be generous or might be less. But I think we're the the the 1st, 100,000, the first point O 1% of the world population to recognize that this is objectively the best unit of account to reach that end state. But it is. It is simultaneously the best medium of exchange and the best store of value. And I think that the store of value function is the thing that imposes itself on the world as economic reality specifically because of the having's as you you may know bit seen I'm a I'm a fervent adherent to the importance of increasing scarcity as the the the prime mover of why Bitcoin gets more valuable over time and and induces adoption out of self-interest. And so I think that that objective reality is something that the world is slowly recognizing and they and that'll be that people will figure out that this is a good store value that helps me grow my purchasing power by saving in Bitcoin much sooner than they will realize that this is the union of accounts that I should organize my entire life around. And and I think that that how we the the labels are are the difference here of like it is a a gross generalization to describe the evolution of this monetary good into four discreet buckets like that when it is really a function of how the bell curve of technology adopters progress through each of those independent stages of how to view Bitcoin. You know, I think, I think a large portion of the world would view Bitcoin as a as a cute collectible that has some value, right. So like a huge portion of the adoption curve has reached that stage of understanding of Bitcoin, but very, very, very few have reached the unit of account and state. And I think that the the store of value function because of increasing scarcity is how Bitcoin forces the world to adopt it. And then in doing so creates the network effects that are the bridge between store of value and medium of exchange, because it's the intra subjective value of. I recognize that somebody else wants Bitcoin. That helps change how you transact from dollars into a a currency that both sides want right. The the the double sided thing that you alluded to earlier. And so you're right. It's ultimately about labels, but I think we're kind of talking about the same thing from different angles and and ultimately you know it's it's it's the most beautiful topic in the world because it's the whole story of bitcoin's monetization and and conquest of the financial landscape. I think that yeah, just to pull pull on one little thread here. The idea that you know that small group of the Bitcoin maximalists that are living on a Bitcoin standard that understand the they inherently, in every single purchase or economic decision they're making, they're making a sound economic decision of is this do I need this good more than I, you know where is that more valuable to me than the the idea of holding a Bitcoin for the future with the expected value of what I anticipate that Bitcoin to be. And I I think the, you know, when you talk about the land grab, there are so few people today that are viewing Bitcoin with that framework that are making that sound economic decision, you know, every time that they are transacting. Yes I I I invite people to go read a a rather long article that I had written called torta node world order they can find in my sub stack or or on the Bitcoin times where it was originally written for. And I kind of in many ways like make like a kind of high high view of of my my sort of entire Bitcoin world view in a sense. But one of the things that I always like to do and I I, I tried to focus on in the the the first bits of of that that article where it pertains to to Bitcoin in particular is I I I always like going back to the the fundamentals of of economic concepts and such because it can bring us more clarity as as we build up and and try to understand this. So I had mentioned the concept of uncertainty and I think in Austrian economics this is really one of one of the key things needed to really understand monetary theory. And it it kind of gets to this like core logical reason why we would want to use a medium of exchange at all. And so when you start to put things in terms of uncertainty and how different properties play into bitcoins, ability to be more certain and you know the the market goes towards the good that can provide the most certainty around that particular good. And so when you're talking about scarcity as a a prime mover, well, one of the biggest uncertainties, especially if like you're holding the dollar, is at what point are they just going to print a third of all money that exists? It's like, well, you just wake up and then in 2020-2021 they do exactly that. And you know, today we we are dealing with the fallout of such a thing, whereas the Bitcoin monetary policy has not budged even a single Satoshi. And all of this can be fully verified. And This is why the coin is so important. It's why it's so important that people learn about nodes and why they might want to run a full node for themselves is because it gives them more certainty about the thing that they are trading, which lets them overcome more, you know, economic problems that they face into the future. So do I need, I I I want to have goods that can handle, handle trades that I need to do today. I want trade. I want a good that I can also hold on to to trade in 100 years. I want a good that I can trade in very small amounts and I want a good that I can trade in very large amounts. Because sometimes I want to buy a house. Sometimes it's just, you know, you know, a a burger, sometimes it's a house. You know, I want it to to, you know, basically all of these different uncertainties on the scales, like on the dimensions of of space and of time and of scale play into what good has the properties most capable of handling that. And it's from that that I do fully agree with you that scarcity is such a a core part of of what makes Bitcoin tick. And it's why 21,000,000 is perhaps the very most important meme in all of Bitcoin. Not because the other things don't matter. In fact 21 million can only happen because of of certain other things but it's it's 21 million that is sort of the the the sort of secret ingredient and that that that makes it all function together. Thanks for tuning in. If you're interested in exploring any of these topics further, or want to learn more about how we can help you secure a new or existing Bitcoin allocation, get in touch with our team at on rampbitcoin.com. We look forward to supporting you on your Bitcoin journey. I love it. Yes, totally agree. It does make me wonder, what are your thoughts on the Infinity divided by 21 variant of that meme? So it's it's been a while since I've I've thought about this because it's it's not a meme that's ever really stuck with me. On the one hand, I appreciate the idea of like, well, literally everything in the universe will be priced in Bitcoin. That being said, I don't think that it's an accurate portrayal of what the price actually is. Because not like you can have more material wealth than the total value of the monetary economy in. In that the the total the total value of of wealth can be higher because not everyone is selling all the wealth at all the same time. So there can be a stock of it. Now if they started selling more stuff, the price of Bitcoin would go up. But at any given time it's like, you know I'm I'm, I'm on a computer right now having this conversation, it's like as much as I should sell all the chairs and everything, it's like well, I I actually do want a computer because I want to talk with my my friends online. And so there's still wealth that's just stored as wealth. And you can price it in Bitcoin, but it's not necessarily representative in represented in the Bitcoin price itself completely. Or like it kind of is like there is this grand order book of everything is like, is this making sense? Like it's like everything is is priced in Bitcoin, but not everything is actually the the the current price of Bitcoin. The actual market price of it does not necessarily reflect literally everything, because the current market price only reflects the people actually buying and selling things for Bitcoin. The. The small subset of available for sale supplies isn't doesn't accurately encompass the true the total value of of or you know, doesn't neatly encompass the total value of all the Bitcoin. Yes. So I would just caution people from from treating it as literally the price is Infinity or something like that because that's that's not the case but it is it is true that so we we could see a world in which pretty much everything humans are pricing in Bitcoin. Yeah, that's that's interesting. That's a that's a objection to it I haven't heard before. I I I agree with you. I actually don't. I don't like that meme overall because. But for me it's because once you introduce Infinity then the implication is that all other assets go to 0 value you know in the in the in the pie and Bitcoin becomes 100% and it's. And I reject that. Yeah, right. Anyway thanks for for everyone letting us get into the the semantics Bitstein and I dove into there. But at this point I think it'd be really interesting Michael to to get your perspective on so you you know you've been you've been in the game for 10 years. You've been in Bitcoin for 10 years and have seen the value of Bitcoin for 10 years and you know at the start of that journey that's inherently involves a recognition that this system is better than the current system. And the current system as of 2014 was in a pretty different place pre pre COVID stimulus printing in 1/3 of all the money that it's ever existed in M2 and all the other things that have happened. I guess would would love to hear your thoughts on how the your, your thesis in 2014 has tracked versus reality in terms of the the relative direction of the existing conventional system versus Bitcoin. And and I think it also would be valuable to get your thoughts on like what that or or I guess personal experience on what that has felt like for you to hold through the FUD and the uncertainties of 10 years of being a Bitcoiner. And you know with in particular with respect to like what lessons have you learned about what it takes to hold for 10 years. And you know, has that made you more or less certain at the end of that 10 years? Yeah, I actually realized that was something that I didn't cover with everyone's a scammer like how how it held up and I will say on that one, I think it held up tremendously. The only the only caveat is Ethereum did launch after the the article came out. And so there there were a lot of people who did very well against Bitcoin and certain people who held early on and if they held they'd still I think be you know up against Bitcoin. But as as a general rule, I think the general rule holds and Even so I think based on everything we've discussed, obviously I I I don't think that Ethereum would be able to maintain that thing. So it's like, yes, if you got in at $0.05 you'll probably not not get as as harmed or like, but. You're a scammer scamming people out of their Bitcoin. Yeah, yeah, so. But, so that. That's the one little funny thing is, you know, Etherium did happen, but I still think that Bitcoin was the right thing. And I mean that that plays into this, this other question. So funny enough, I mean when, I mean, I was, I was young and and much more idealistic at the time. So when as soon as I got into Bitcoin, there was a feeling it's like, OK, well everyone else is going to learn this tomorrow and you know we'll have full, full global reserve asset status in in 5-10 years Max. That clearly didn't happen and I think I had to I I I had to learn through that process that actually the market is a very dynamic thing. That's that's what we can learn from the Austrian economists like that that the market is, is is very dynamic and people are always learning and and so on and so forth. But the actual process is not necessarily as fast as you always might want it to be because the economy is also very large. And so there's there's a lot of work that has to be done to actually see ideas percolate through the entire economy and that that's that has its own, you know, humbling aspect to it. That being said, at the same time, Bitcoin has done tremendously well because it's it's grown exponentially since since then. And I I think I just had in my mind a much steeper exponential curve than the reality. But in terms of thinking that, oh, this thing is going to exponentially grow very rapidly, it it really did it's it's it's it's absolutely crazy to think where Bitcoin is relative to then and not see it as being total vindication that hyper bitcoinization is completely real. Because there's there's there's no other way to describe just this incredible growth and you know seemingly extremely sustainable growth too. The fact that every time someone comes out and they're like oh, bitcoin's going to go all the way down to 20,000, it's like that you think that's bearish. But when you zoom out enough and you've been watching, you know, for as long as I have, that is incredibly bullish that you as the ultra Bitcoin bearer, that's like the, that's the worst you're coming up with except for like a, you know, obviously the person who just says it's going to go all the way down to 0, those people are going to just continue to exist. But the person who wants to be super bearish and all they can come up with is like you know 20,000 or whatever that's extremely bullish and thank you for vindicating me. So I I see, I see us as having lived through hyper bitcoinization for the past you know since since 2010 when Bitcoin got its first price and and we we just continue to see it and you know the the way that you know exponential and sort of hyperbolic functions work is as you go the the slope increases as as well And so we we've always been in hyper bitcoinization but you know we could always see more hyper the other side of it. Another another thing to consider too is that I've had to recognize is that, you know, when Bitcoin is, you know, a few 100 bucks or a few 1000 bucks, it is good for individuals. Like individuals can start thinking about it. But a large corporation, a micro strategy, I don't think could have even really happened until micro strategy happened. Because Bitcoin has to get to a certain amount of liquidity before an organization can look at and be like, oh, it's possible for me to get in on this without totally, you know, cornering the market because like you want to corner the market in the sense of getting a huge land grab. You don't want to corner the market in terms of like I just have this big thing, I completely move the market and you know with the money you sort of just you actually want to get in without affecting the price if you can help it. And from that perspective it's like it takes a certain amount of time and growth for it to get to that point. And so I also had to learn, learn that. And so it's, you know, there's a reason El Salvador took until it did. And it it it, it stands to reason why it was a country like El Salvador and not the United States. Because El Salvador could afford to take on a certain amount of risk at such a low liquidity. Whereas it would it would make no sense necessarily for for the US to to take that sort of action, even if I think they should, and even if I think that it would ultimately be good for everyone if they did. Yeah yeah I love that the the mental framing of like Bitcoin wins from the from the edges you know it's like it El Salvador is kind of if you if you were to a few years ago stack rank the economic power of of all countries in the world. El Salvador would would be lower on the list and that meant they had a greater opportunity to to sees advantage of the the Bitcoin opportunity. And you know similarly like we see politicians from the fringes have been the first ones to embrace Bitcoin. You know seeing Senator Lummus have success getting into office by embracing Bitcoin as part of her platform and then inspired you know RFK Junior and Ted Cruz. And you know even now Trump starting to tiptoe into crypto as as part of this platform which is is you know winning from the edges until eventually it becomes something that the mainstream has to adopt as well. Also the other thing I wanted to to dig into there was I love how you characterize I think accurately that that we are we have been living through hyper bitcoinization this whole time because I think in Bitcoin people trick themselves into looking forward to a God candle sort of thing right where you some overnight the price is going to go from where we are to $1,000,000 and and I think that the the history of Bitcoin shows that's this is never how it's going to be. It's a slow iterative process of of three steps forward 2 steps back and the the volatility being the human condition that the human psychology that we all bring to trying to understand this thing and price it and speculate on it and trade it and and we are the volatility, not Bitcoin. Bitcoin is certain as you and Pierre Rashard like to point out and and so yeah, like I think it's hugely helpful mental repositioning to recognize that we are in the midst of hyper bitcoinization. It has been playing out. It it stands to continue playing out. And then the other piece in there that that I that I want to ask you more about is you insinuated that you believe that that rate can will accelerate and you know with with the recent popularity of the power law stuff and you know kind of stock to flow model being a little bit. Passe I guess at this point in time in the Bitcoin landscape what are what are your thoughts on do we have diminishing returns do we have an S curve that you know we we're where we're going to accelerate faster or what do you see for the for the future of how hyper bit colonization plays out. I I I don't. Know it's also an impossible question. Yeah, I I I I really, I I really don't know. I I think, I think Bitcoin will continue to be exponential and the reason that I think it'll be it'll continue to be exponential is just simply that it is a network good and networks have a a sort of exponential factor to it in the sense that you're you're dealing with you know multiple you know peer peers connecting with one another. So it's like, you know the the, the number of lines that connect, you know when you have an increasing number of dots and you draw lines between all of the dots, that number grows exponentially. And you know an economy grows that way and also means that an economy shrinks that way as as people move away from another. So that's been our basic argument as to why you know Bitcoin will be exponential is that that network aspect of being a network good like a money And so yes I think it will be exponential but what specific exponential curve that will be, I don't know. My, my point is, is that exponentials just naturally do sort of speed up in, in the sense that, you know today, you know, if Bitcoin went up $2000, I mean just the other day it went up a a few $1000 and it's like, Oh yeah, that's a fun day, but that's also kind of like normal in Bitcoin. Whereas in the past going up a few 1000 bucks would have been nothing. Sorry, sorry, the opposite of not, it would have been like the most insane thing ever. And so in that sense these, these magnitudes are are going up. So yeah, I I don't, I don't know that I want to like get into prognosticating a particular curve. I just think that it's it's important to think about these these fundamentals. Gotcha. Thing to me about like magnitude going up is less. I mean I I totally agree you know $1000 swings you know were definitely harder to come by when when we were in priced at like 5K compared to TO65K as we we are right now. But the the magnitude is is to me like what we're seeing on the political spectrum right now. You had the the House of Representatives just vote to to repeal SEV 121. The fact that we we actually have bipartisan effort and people who actually care in government right now to to put regulation on you know digital assets in Bitcoin to help you know financial institutions step into the industry to mature the asset class Like that's that's the magnitude right now that's fascinating to me that you're seeing political chess moves you know take place at presidential elections. Obviously the the Senate's going to vote on today Schumer told Democratic senators to go vote their heart like there's a real chance that Biden has if if Biden who said he's going to veto any any repeal of SAB 121 like that might actually have to happen you know over the next you know coming days or or or week or so. I I I can't believe the order of magnitude of how quickly I'd say you look at where we've come the last two years from the FTX fallout to now meaningfully impacting elections and dynamics in government. I I think it's incredible to see the progress we've made since since by that that that low moment. Yes, with with every step of the way, you have that much bigger of an amount of of people that can be invited to partake in Bitcoin in a way that they had it previously then, then in the past. You know, in the past it was just like, you know, at best you're going to like convince some libertarian nerds to to put in some money and just kind of see it as this cool thing. But as it grows, you know, different events happen that reveal something to the world, about the world, to people, shows them an underlying uncertainty within their the the way that they're doing things now, and gives them an opportunity to learn how Bitcoin can plug up that uncertainty. And that's whether it's like seeing the the fallout, the the monetary fallout of of the the COVID or the, you know, even things like, you know Canadian truckers and just continual rising prices and and so on and so forth. Each one of these things is a, isn't it an invitation for people to to reassess. And it's always like it's it's a larger and larger pool of people at that at that point. Because even if people know about Bitcoin, they don't really know Bitcoin yet. But this is an invitation and all of that work of them knowing about Bitcoin, it softens them up as well. So yeah, I I think it'll be exponential. I'm just not going to comment on what particular curve I think it's going to be because it's just that's that's beyond me I. Don't. Yeah, I gotcha. Yeah. The suffice to say on a log scale up and to the right and and we'll leave it at that, yeah. It's number go up technology and it's going to continue to function that I do know. Yeah I I agree with you there I I who knows who knows on that on that front and and yeah Mitch makes a great point that like it's a it's like a tent pole you know Bitcoin Bitcoin can be a tent pole for for politicians and and political parties to you know invite more people in to expand the tent And and I I think and I hope and we'll see that the game theory there plays out in a way where all political corners of the spectrum recognize that this is you know something that that they want to adopt as part of their platform such that it is not a partisan issue ultimately hopefully that's where we're heading and but the Democrats have a little little catching up to do if that's going to play out that way. Go for it. Oh, I was just going to say I think any, any and all politicians should be pandering to me, so. Yes. I'm. I'm fine with that. Yeah, I I think right now obviously I think the presidential level, you know, the dynamic is taking place that it is becoming a partisan issue. But we, we certainly do have friends on on both sides of the aisle. That being said, you know, the game theory takes place that, you know, there's a very real chance that Bitcoin and largely digital assets in general do end up impacting this presidential election. That's the case. If we do, if the data is there, you know that the votes are there, the incentive mechanisms in place so that you know, Democrats don't make that mistake again in the future. So I I think it it's you know as the you know the space matures and as that game theory plays out I I do think you know it's it's going to it's going to have to be table stakes to to be supportive of the industry compared to what we've we've experienced over the last couple of years. That's a very interesting, like, possible arc for this of like potentially the crypto vote tips, the scales in this upcoming presidential election. And then four years from now it's table stakes because you know, they recognize that they, you know, if they had just pandered to the crypto vote, then the Democrats might have had, you know might have not lost a contingent that ended up being crucial and and it could be table stakes 5 years from now in the next in the next go round. But in the meantime, probably be a lot of animosity towards the crypto voters that that swung it for Trump despite being young and typically young people voting for Democrats. Yeah I I personally try to disengage from from the political aspect in a in a sort of direct sense and and rather you know this is This is why I I want to do things like the Nakamoto Institute is as people are finding themselves drawn into Bitcoin from whatever angle it might be. Whether it's a a democratic politician who just wants to pander to someone or it's you know actual you know business owners and individuals trying to improve their their economic standing. Or if there's even heads of state out there who are interested in finally leading a country in a in a more with more of a long term vision than we we see in a lot of modern politics. Whatever case that might be, all of those people have to learn about Bitcoin and they have to actually learn how this thing functions, what is it? And so on and so forth. And so my my goal in all of this is not to not to find myself engaging in the direct politics, but for providing the, the educational resources needed for for any of those people to really get a sense of the the truth about Bitcoin and its potential. And why from whatever walk of life you might come from that, that Bitcoin can be a a beacon for a free and prosperous and peaceful future and kind of help people align with that. You know there's there's concern on a few things of of people forgetting like the the true importance of Bitcoin. So they might get into the the politics and such and it just like the the politics begins to overtake the underlying idea itself. And that that would be kind of that would be rather disappointing on that front for that for that to be the case because it's actually the underlying idea that makes the political idea or the the the political strategy even a even one to consider for those who are interested in that. So there's a need to to to sort of continue carrying that torch and being being a good steward for the the information that best helps people get up and running with Bitcoin as well as add to our stock of knowledge. We don't know everything about Bitcoin even after all these years like I'm I'm but a a humble pleb at the end of the day, as I think all of us ultimately are. And so we also have to we have to, we have to take care of the knowledge that we do have and grow it so that in whatever form that Bitcoin continues to to to grow. Those new bitcoiners have have a place to to learn about Bitcoin in the highest quality way possible. Yes, fantastic. Yeah, I you're preaching to acquire here for sure of the importance of Bitcoin education. It's paramount in my in my view. And in fact it's. I think you'd probably agree with this Michael. It's something of a calling once you understand Bitcoin and the mental model that I have of of what it takes for Bitcoin to win. It's just to ensure that we have a positive viral coefficient of of you know spreading the word I guess the gospel of the the facts really let's take the religion out of it but the the hard and fast economic facts of how Bitcoin can improve your life and that's Bitcoin education. And you you had a a talk about the I forget the the name of the talk but about the meme nature and the importance of memes in propagating Bitcoin education and and the and the message of Bitcoin. Do you want to talk briefly on that? Sure, yes. I gave a talk it was at Bitblock Boom in in 2019 called the art of Bitcoin rhetoric How to meme Bitcoin to the moon and the the the talk was was basically just looking into various aspect of rhetoric especially online rhetoric which we kind of we kind of just kind of lump all into to memes that that word itself is is kind of a a broad thing but it's effectively about rhetoric. And you know I I, I do start out saying that it's like Bitcoin is just going to moon as it is. Like the the hard economics are such that there is a a sort of natural organic growth to Bitcoin that's kind of bigger than any particular act of of trying to educate or persuade or you know you know whatever other kind of rhetoric you're engaged in. But I I tried to give a a talk. It was it was a very tongue in cheek, but hopefully very informative talk as well that helped people think about the the sort of battlefield of online rhetoric where you're you're dealing with many different groups of people who have different interests and motives. You're dealing with people who explicitly just hate Bitcoin and you're not going to convince them in the same mix as you're dealing with people who want to have very strong technical discussion of Bitcoin and also people who have no clue about Bitcoin but maybe want to learn about it and so on and so forth. And there's all sorts of rhetorical battles that sort of have to be thought fought in order to get particular signals out through the noise. And so I talk about, you know, different different tactics and and strategies, so to speak, to to how to think about these things. So for instance, people find themselves wanting to sort of cave to other people's narratives around Bitcoin that we have fundamentally no reason to have to like cave towards. An example is with the the energy debates. A lot of these, a lot of these debates are being done in bad faith where there's lots that we could discuss about you know, what are what are the most efficient, you know, ecologically friendly ways of of mining Bitcoin or something like that. There's there's many discussions to be had even among people who are completely in favor of everything being fossil fuels. I I personally happen to be a huge fan of fossil fuels. I also very much care about, you know ecological issues. But to even engage in the debate on those terms with certain individuals is to be seating A-frame where they're able to put you in a spot of weakness as because of the fact that they just hate Bitcoin. They they don't actually. The the energy debate is just something that they can try to just run a a gotcha on when really you know, it's not that they are worried that Bitcoin uses too much energy, they just don't like Bitcoin. So it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter how much energy Bitcoin is using at all. They will still think that it's way too much and it's environmentally damaging even if it was just one guy's laptop because you know, you could also, you know turn off that light after you leave the the room and you'll you'll do so much to help the the environment. So a lot of these discussions that people find themselves in they're very disingenuous. And so I invite bitcoiners to you know, I, I, I talk a lot about trolling but I, I, I also explained that it's like you you ultimately the the point is to spread the truth and so the the the goal of trolling is not literally to be toxic and just you know be be vile and mean to people that that's that's just being an awful person. I'm not. I'm not in support of that. However, understanding the rhetorical battlefield and knowing how to get get around these sort of gotchas that that come from bad faith and also you know not not, you know not being tricked into giving more respect than respect is due is is is very important to be able to to to to to transmit that truth. But I guess the other point that I was trying to make there is that to have the the actual signal that you're wanting to get out in the first place, you have to truly understand what you're talking about. Or at least you know, try to be truly understanding what you're talking about. And so underneath all of that, your goal should be to understand the truth and then be figuring out how do I get that truth out there? And when someone is coming at me with an argument, be able to identify is this person arguing in good faith or in bad faith? If they're arguing in good faith, you should be doing everything you can to help them through misconceptions. They might even have a critique or two that that resonate while it's like actually yes that is a trade off that Bitcoin has but This is why that that trade off is acceptable. Other things might be like the energy thing and then you know you you honestly should just like laugh at it because there's there's people are not trying to have a good faith argument. They're having a bad faith argument and so you have no obligation to take them seriously and and you know I, I, I see no problem in you know throwing around jabs online but that would also be a a call for you know if if that is not your personality to also do not tailor your message to those people because they are acting in bad faith. You might use it as a springboard to to have discussion with people who are of good faith but do not get trapped by people who are are arguing in in bad faith. So like I said, it's a it's a very tongue in cheek thing. But a lot of people have really enjoyed it and gotten a lot of value of it. So I'm I'm very I'm very you know happy that I was able to kind of help people see things in that in the different light. That's part of why it's it's fun to be in tongue in cheek is because it it helps people kind of snap out of their their you know what whatever their sort of current Overton windows so to speak or you know whatever other term you might you know their their their current way of thinking of it. If you're able to come at it from a totally different direction it can kind of snap people out of it and think outside of the box. And and I I always like being able to help people think a little bit outside of the box, because that's usually where a lot better answers are. Absolutely, yeah. And it seems to be necessary to to even begin to entertain the possibility that Bitcoin's right is that you have to 1st get outside of the box that you've been confined to your whole life without realizing it. Yeah, I mean I've had to deal with 10 / 10 years now of of you know every academic, journalist, politician you name it, telling me how how you know idiotic Bitcoin is going to 0 this and that and so on and so forth. It's always been the sort of losing proposition in the the mind of the general public and it requires having a strong resolve and developing a strong resolve based on hopefully a a a conviction built on on firm foundations. But once you're standing there, you know it's you can take on the world. Love it. It's fantastic and I think that that creates a nice little segue to for for us to wrap up here on on the what's going on currently for the Satoshi Nakamoto Institute, what your plans are and also what people can do if they want to get involved or support what you're doing with Satoshi Nakamoto Institute, any any things to say there? Yes, so you know as I said before the Satoshi Nakamoto Institute is now A5O1C3 tax exempt non profit which means that anyone who's AUS citizen can donate to us with a tax deduct tax deductible donation. So you know that's that's obviously much more enticing to to for certain people, for certain types of you know tax you know advantages and such. But then there's of course it's like why would why would you want to get involved with us in the 1st place. So you know, our, our mission is to advance and preserve Bitcoin knowledge, you know of of its history, of its economics, of its technology and so on and so forth and have a place that people can come to and learn all of these things about Bitcoin. And as I've kind of alluded before, alluded to before, we have to think not just in terms of now but also deep into the future. And so my goal is to be stewarding the the finest information on on Bitcoin such that new bitcoiners today and generations to come can still come and and learn what they need to know about Bitcoin to to to best thrive and yeah so. So ways that you can get involved first is it is it is an open source website. So you are always welcome to come help with the code help with content you know actually you know get your get your hands dirty helps helps more than probably anything else because it enables the other things. But we also have launched a translation community. We are trying to we we want our content to be as accessible globally as possible because Bitcoin is global and it shouldn't just be people who can read English that get to enjoy the the wisdom of Nick Zabo and Timothy May and many of the other great thinkers that we've we've showcased on the website. And so we have a translation community if if you would like to assist with translation efforts. And finally there's also you know donations. So being able to you know you can you can donate to U.S. tax deductibly and is if that's the correct term. But and you know with that, that allows us to you know pay for our hosting help, pay for me to to be able to work full time, be able to expand operations to be able to do more work. Currently it's it's mostly a one man show so only so much can get done at A at a given time. But you know, with your help, maybe that can change in the future. Currently one of our big projects, you know, we unveiled a a new logo for the Satoshi Nakamoto Institute and we have a broader fundraiser going on to help fund a redesign of the website. And the idea here is it's almost like a, it's almost like a phase change in a way. You know, prior we were targeted towards like a lot of nerdy libertarians online. There's only so many people who are going to be interested in Austrian economics or cryptography or you know what have you. But because Bitcoin has grown to the place that it is, these topics are now tapping into the mainstream and it is something that the whole world wants to know. And so with redesigned, we want a we we're we're trying to build an aesthetic that helps display to the world our seriousness and commitment to the long term education of bit corners now and in the future. And so you can find information about this on our newsletter and if you if you donate you can help us, you know get this redesign process going so that we can you know, have that have the the aesthetics that match our long term vision. Awesome. Yeah, it's it's fantastic work. It's a vital resource and everyone if you haven't checked it out go check it out and and you know see if you can support what what Michael's up to Michael want to thank you for coming on the show. It was a great conversation, really appreciate your time and I look forward to to maybe having you come come chat wonky semantic stuff about the trajectory of Bitcoin another time in the future. That would be fantastic. Thank you so much for having me. All right everybody and and and Mitch, thanks for joining this week too and everybody will will see you all next week back with the usual cast.
Transcript source: fountain