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What you're telling me is that music is about to stop and we're going to be left holding the biggest bag of odorous excrement ever assembled in the history of darkness 1974198792972. 1000 and whatever. We want to call this. It's all just the same thing over and over. We can't help ourselves. I say when we sell. Hey, OK. I say when we sell. Everyone welcome back to the last trade. This week we have Brom Constine, Bitcoin for Millennials podcast, among many other things and always joined by my Co host Jesse Myers and Michael Tanguma. Brom, thanks for joining us. How are you today? Yeah, I'm good guys. I'm excited to to chat with you. I think we've had several individual conversations, but this four way is something new. So I'm, I'm, I'm excited to see where this goes. Yeah, well, thanks for making the time. And I know we were just chatting beforehand. We first got connected maybe over a year ago. So it's been a lot of fun just to follow the growth that you've had and the success you've had with your podcast. And I appreciate you carving out an hour to speak with us today, especially since you're feeling under, under the weather. So we'll be mindful of your time. And you know, thanks again, Brahm. Let's we can get into it then. Yeah. So maybe the best place to start just generally for those who don't know you would love to just to hear a little bit more about your professional background. It's quite fascinating. It's very impressive on the growth and marketing side. And then ultimately, what led you into Bitcoin and starting your podcast? Yeah, So I was always just this geeky Internet kid, I think, you know, like as a, as a millennial, like I, I grew up without the Internet and then with the Internet, of course. So I was always like online and my mother would shout upstairs, like, you know, can you get off the Internet? I need to call, you know, like, like that. And later in life, I, I realized what I actually like to do and, and what I still like to do is to just try out new stuff. Like I'm just fascinated by kind of like the power of the Internet and that when you create things on there, there's, there's so many ways that it can travel to so many different people. But of course, I wasn't super aware of that when I was younger. But for example, like I was always trying out like Limewire or Kazaa or, you know, any of these file download like peer-to-peer the products. And then, you know, I would burn CDs, sell them in school. And then we would host like parties from the revenue where people could also buy the CDs. And I had a friend who who would then play the songs and stuff like that. So I was kind of always into this. Yeah, just into, I always say computer ring, like I like to computer and just do that. And later also combine that with with business. And I think at one point when I was like, I don't know, 22 or something, I actually at only at that point discovered like what startups were like Internet startups. And, you know, of course, my first understanding was, OK, you have an idea, someone gives you money, you launch and then, you know, magic and then you're rich. You know, like, like, like the meme. But it was also at that moment that I realized because I was like, really down there, like, what's his name again? Sean Parker Rabbit hole and I saw that like Napster at his at its peak had like 15,000,000 users. And I was like, oh, I was this geeky kid from the Netherlands in this little town. I was one of these 15,000,000 million people. And that made me realize that I'd like to be early, like I like to try out new stuff that's launched on the Internet, right? Like, and just know and, and try to understand what, why are people spending their precious time on, you know, this idea or this thing that they're, that they're building. So always been into trying out new things. And eventually that also led me to, to the discovery of Bitcoin. And like my professional career has all yeah, for the last 12 years, I'd say has really revolved around these, you know, new digital business ideas basically. And I've seen it from several angles. So my first job was at a big tech publication in Next Web. I worked for an investor, had my own marketing agency and just also tried a lot of my own ideas, failed at a lot, sold a few. But yeah, over time really specialized in, yeah, the zero to one phase. Like, OK, you have this idea. What's that worth? Why should you pay attention or spend more time, money and energy on this idea, right? Like that is the most important, I'd say, challenge or assignment that you have when you have a business idea, because I believe, you know, the, the business ideas just float around in the universe, right? And from time to time you get struck with inspiration. But you see a lot of people that make like big plans and they, they lock themselves in for two years, they build something and then they're like, you know, now I'm here. And then there's all these crickets because they didn't really talk to customers. They didn't challenge their assumptions like all these things. And yeah, I, I just really focused on that and, and worked with a lot of companies on that. So from traditional finance companies spent four years in banking to like startups and, and scale ups and yeah, just through these Internet journeys and, and, and this computering hobby, I, I also discovered Bitcoin in, in 2014. Yeah, I always say like I bought at 400. I sold everything at 4000. I now have less than than before, But you know, that's kind of the flow and the journey that, that everyone goes through. It is a pity though. If I look back at my old tweets from 2013, I did that a few months ago. I, I tweet something like Bitcoin, it's a synthesized digital commodity and I'm like, damn, I got it, but I didn't get it, you know, so that's kind of how it went. And I think maybe to add to that, a fun thing is like one of the first Bitcoin that I bought was true Second Life actually. So, you know, I'm in the Netherlands, we have a really good payment infrastructure. But I was a student, I had a credit card with, I don't know, probably like $700.00 type, you know, limit. And I wanted to buy Bitcoin, but it was, it was really hard. But one, at one point I realized that Second Life had a currency, I don't know if you know that, but that was called the Linden Dollar, which was a currency that was used in the game. So if you would go in the game and walk to an ATM, you could use your credit card to get these Linden dollars and then use them in the game. And why I wanted to get the Linden dollars is because I found out that you could trade them for another token or, or crypto coin at that time. And I could transfer that crypto token to another exchange BTCE. I don't know if you remember that one's like a Chinese one or eventually went bust. And then I could transform it into or, or, or, you know, turn it into Bitcoin. I don't know how much I bought, but I think if I bought for like $100, I ended up with like $50.00 in Bitcoin with all the fees and all and all the stuff. But yeah, I think it's a fun example of just, you know, trying stuff out. I remember looking at the at the, you know, transaction pages, you know, and just having no clue what's what I was reading or, you know, what was going on. But yeah, that's kind of how it started. At Onramp, we believe that Bitcoin is the most important asset of the 21st century. The hard part is securing it right. There are shortcomings with keeping your coins on an exchange, but also with setting up your own self custody arrangement. Onramp solves for these concerns. Our multi institution custody solution maximizes security and minimizes counterparty risk, ensuring that your Bitcoin remains securely in your possession and provides built in inheritance planning to ensure your family is protected as well. On Ramp provides Peace of Mind for your Bitcoin journey, whether for your whole stack or for part of it as a compliment to your existing self custody setup. For more information, check us out at on rampbitcoin.com. Yeah, that's, that's fascinating. I mean, there's so many different threads to pull on. I know Michael has something to say, maybe business building related. One thing, Brahm, that you stuck out to me was just the idea of the digital commodity and how you're able to come to that a decade ago like that. I think that's almost, that's extremely early, not only to be early to Bitcoin, which I think we would still agree that we are today. But the ability to take this information and this obscure Internet money a decade ago and be able to create or to pull those pieces together and actually come to that conclusion, I think is very remarkable. And you must have gotten a lot further than other people. I know it wasn't the you didn't fully piece it together at that point, but you're able to pull it together enough to be early enough a decade ago, which I think is crazy. And then also just the idea of all these exchanges that have come and gone over the years. I was not familiar with BTCE, but it's not surprising just how those inefficiencies existed in terms of tapping into the market and all the fees and whether those are fees on exchange, but then also FX fees and the fact that they're not around today. I think just as an anecdote that we hear time and time again over those past 10 years or 15 years total, there's no shortage of those stories. So it's really remarkable just to hear over the course of a decade how these different interactions you've had both Bitcoin, crypto directly, but then also just the early, early years. Being kind of an Internet pioneer in some sense as it relates to your personal interest and professional interest is very interesting. But I'd love to add to that full transparency, right? So I, I got it, but I didn't get it right. And, and I also, of course, sold at at a certain point where I was like, OK, that's great. Actually, you know, I really looked at it from, from this kind of like technology angle. I think Jack Dorsey has talked about this a lot, right? Like, OK, the, the Internet needs a currency. That's kind of how I looked at it from the beginning. So I really looked at it from a, yeah, kind of like technological angle. So when I found Litecoin, I thought this is the better Bitcoin. I actually did a presentation at the bank that I later would work at where I did a Litecoin presentation and presented why Litecoin was the better Bitcoin. I have no clue what my arguments were at that time, but I think that that does show, you know, using one dimension to look at Bitcoin is not, it's not the right approach, you know, and I think that is actually what is this? What represents this flow of understanding and study and challenging yourself or asking you big questions? I think, I think Jesse talks about that a lot from like his his perspective, right? Like, how far do you have to zoom, zoom out, right, to understand why this thing should exist or why it's better than any alternative. And yeah, I think it's also nice to share, right? Like, like I am, I, I, like, I got it. I didn't get it. I was not a maxi from the start, you know? I did all the ICO stuff and all the NFT stuff to eventually get to the point, you know? And that's what the altcoins just like rely on or, or they're based around is, is technologists being sort of hoodwinked into like, oh, there's, there's better technology, you know, and rather than and, and I think for you, Brahma and for me, like the, the thing that we both needed to do eventually, because I had my altcoin phase two was to zoom out enough to understand Bitcoin in this like much bigger context rather than like looking at the little details of transactions per second on chain, you know, yadda, yadda. But you're always going to lose that battle. If, you know, if you get into the, into the, into the mud with pigs, you, you know, the pigs love it and you get dirty, right? Like like that's, that's what altcoins are kind of banking on you doing. Yeah, yeah. And also it's when I went down the more like finance and economic like dimensions of Bitcoin. That's where you find the reason for existence, right. Like I think the technological aspect is more about like when you find the reason of existence, then you will ask why questions afterwards, OK, but why is this better? Why is this superior money? Why are there 21 million? You know, why is the supply capped? Why is that enforced? You know, you know, that's when you get to that part, because then you can explain why the technical well, the technologies that are combined are combined in a good way. I want to say in a perfect way to solve the problem that is the reason of existence, right? And I've only seen that the last three years that I really understand that part right? So, well, you. Know, yeah, and. That ties into our relationship with with you Brahm and your podcast and working on it. I think I'd love to hear how that started. I think one thing that you mentioned that I think doesn't get talked about enough is it it's almost like a blessing that we didn't and majority of people do not find Bitcoin early. Because when you really think about it, it's almost like winning the lottery. And when people win the lottery, it's surely not a good thing because the money came too fast. And you don't really understand what you said a the use case, why it exists and then also the learning. So people know generally whether somebody wins a lottery or gets inheritance of capital, it usually comes in as quick as it goes out because it's not a natural. And we've kind of seen this in Bitcoin historically. There's not a lot of like people that got it in 2010 eleven and have built big businesses anywhere that we know about that also haven't like kind of gone a little bit crazy, if not very crazy. And so there's, there's this notion of I think there's a sweet spot and, and obviously bias, but I feel like 17 to 25, maybe 17 to 20272030, wherever it comes into is the monetization and how big this actually is. You needed that time for the market to catch up and the realization of where does it fit in from an order of operations and an adoption to start to build things that can impact the world. And also like, you know, make material difference in an individual's growth trajectory. The, the revenue, like all those things tying in and that like we haven't, we didn't see it. So imagine coming in at 2012, buying 5000 Bitcoin, like you'd be in a very different spot. And so it's just an interesting dynamic where coming back around now you have that frame of reference of 10 years and you're a different person. But it allows you to do kind of maybe a lot more be a lot more impactful to to what's happening in this space. Your your podcast, you know, obviously has a lot of viewers and listeners that are probably, you know, helping see this. So anyway, it's just a realization. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kind of paradoxical. I mean, that's why I sold that 4000, right? Like, I mean, that's the for me, that was a was was a good point. And but when you look back, you know, that's that's the instant realization I had. I had a similar realization before I sold because then I was trading and I suck at trading. I'm way too emotional to trade now I'm more rational, but but then I was poor emotional, I'd say, you know, so I had, I had a certain amount, then I had less because it was a shit trader. And then, you know, I sold, I was happy. And when I finally wanted to get back in, I had less than than than what I had when I sold at 4000. And I think, yeah, you have to do that to realize what the impact is of this, of this absolute digital scarcity, right? Like like now if you sell now, I think we are all confused looking at the charts, like who's selling? I saw a nice huddle chart, by the way, like in the past few months, I think only 20% of all Bitcoin moved, right? So it's just a very, it's a it's a low supply that's actually been traded probably mostly by by professional people. But like, yeah, if you get in over your head when you think you get it, you know, you will get burned If you get in with not enough while, you know, while you did do get it at that time, you know, you will also get burned in some way because you didn't trust yourself enough, right. So it's just, I love this part of of I don't know if it's the Bitcoin journey. I think it's a journey of adopting something new, right? Like in, in the time of when the Internet came up or mobile phones, etcetera. I mean, it's the same thing like the first mobile phone, you know, that you carried around like a, like a briefcase. There was also like 5000 or $10,000, right? Like some people just tried that and then it broke or something, you know, and then like, so it's, it's always, and I think it's fun to tie that back to, to my introduction. It's, you have to try it to, to, to have an opinion, right? And that is, that has never been truer than with Bitcoin, I would say, because you are fighting against this crazy indoctrination and, and programming about money or the lack of programming, you know, the lack of information about money. So, so this is a really, really, really big personal challenge for people, this adoption of Bitcoin and then the studying. And I feel like that's probably I would. I would guess it's probably the most common shared experience that people who got in in like 2017 or or earlier and went through altcoins, if you then if you got to Bitcoin maximalism, that journey probably involved ending up with a lot less Bitcoin than you had or could have had. And that painful realization is part of understanding how precious Bitcoin is and that like, and you're not going to trade it anymore. You're not going to hot potato anything anymore. You're going to put it in cold storage and you're going to hold on because now you understand, you learned the hard way. I, I would guess that's the majority of people who were altcoiners in 2017 who are now Bitcoin maximalists have that kind of 10X loss that you know, and, and it hurts every time you think about it, but but it helped you get to Bitcoin maximalism. Yeah, Yeah, I think that's true. Yeah. And maybe to answer also my quote, you just said that that about the podcast, right? Like eventually you get invited by yourself, I think to do something to contribute to this thing, right? Like you guys, you are building this company. I think that also starts at a certain time, right? Like, like The Pioneers from really the early days, there's a few left, but you know, if you look at technology, there's always this, it's, it's like a wave, right? And, and if you see it, but you're too early, then, you know, you, you, the, the wave will basically move away from you. Like it will go faster than than how fast you can build your company, right. And some people are right on the tip of the wave, you know, and then the waves, you know, slams and some companies die, but you want to be, if you want to jump on a technology wave, you have to, you know, kind of like do it at the right time. And it's really hard to to think like where that is. But what I like with Bitcoin is that, yeah, just invite you, right? Like if, if I don't think there's any Bitcoiners or like people that really got it and then went back to their old life or back to the old money, right? Like you see that people are moving their attention to this thing. I started a podcast. You guys are building this company, right? And I think that's all part of it. I think it's a signal that shows that, yeah, this is a serious thing. It's not the two thing, It's not the Ponzi thing. Like it's people are moving their energy and and and intention and and time towards this thing. And that's, I think, a big signal. Did you guys see Hosh of his name's escaping me from bull Bitcoin Francis's tweet last night? This is so good. I don't know if you saw Jesse or Brand. There was a vice president's vice presidential debate from last night and yeah, this guy JD Vance, and they showed a picture of him four years ago and he's like pudgy and kind of like, and then like the next picture is like last night look really good. You know, like buttoned up hair in good shape, probably like 30 lbs lighter. And Francis was like, I know a Bitcoiner when I see her, some of that's gone through realization. It's like 4 years ago. He read the Bitcoin Standard and like just. Completely. Yeah, it's, it's, it just ties into what you said, like you can't go backwards in this. Once you see it, you can't Unsee it. And then it kind of impacts how you, you know, think professionally and personally, but. Have you guys ever had that with anything in your life like like this? Never anything on this scale, that's for sure. You know, like and because, because what does it mean to be like a technology adopter for anything else? It, it's, it's a, a shadow of what it means to adopt Bitcoin. You know, adopting Bitcoin means making it your savings, a savings pillar of your financial planning and adopting, I don't know, adopting a Walkman player means going to the store, dropping $50.00 and walking out with a little device, You know, like any, any other technology is amounts to consumption, some sort of device or thing that you're trying out. And it doesn't really matter. It's if it doesn't work, if you don't like it, if you get rid of it, you're going to give it a shot because it's, it's not central to your life. So it's easy to try. And then Bitcoin is this totally other thing where it, it is a radical, it's, it's hot swapping out the foundation of your existence from a financial perspective while you're, you know, while the plane is in flight. I would argue it's not only this financial, it starts with the financial part, right, But I think this is exactly why Bitcoin is it's a technology, yes, but when you adopt it, it becomes your life philosophy, right? Like it's not like, and I think it's fun, but like, you know this MKBHD guy, like I'm the gadget guy, right? Like I like to try out new gadgets or new cars like that's, that's fun, but it's you know, that's why I liked your article, Jesse so much, right? Like why, why doesn't the yuppie elite understand Bitcoin? It's there's so many super smart, analytical people that like to tinker around and do real research, you know, with Excel sheets and all that stuff like this is the best TV or this is the best phone or this is the best whatever. But from what I've seen, a lot of these types of people, they don't like Bitcoin where so, so kind of my conclusion from that is like they are intelligent enough, but they, they don't challenge their faults, right, or their, their beliefs. So I, I, you need to be somewhat intelligent to understand Bitcoin, but it's not an IQ test. It is eventually some sort of ego test. It's just common. Yeah, it's just common sense, but I think like to go back because if somebody you've stumbled into what we're talking about right now, it would be like, man, these guys sound nuts like this sounds like a cult like. So I think it's worth re anchoring to like 2 fundamental things that exist. One is the reason why people don't get Bitcoin is because they're our brains are. It's the same reason why like there's only a small cohort of venture capitalists that are really good at venture capital or seeing the future is that our brains are preconditioned to look at more of what exactly will be close to what exists today than the future. So when you take a radical thing like changing the money, just, you know, you're just predisposed to seeing it. That's why we love this business because everybody's taking a grafting of like self custody and saying that's the end all be all. It's like, well, no, you have you're just taking what you initially have heard. You're not thinking from a first principle perspective like, well, how does this go? The second part, though, is which you referenced about this change, like past a Fiat system. And I've been talking about this book, like Henry Ford's book. It's like if you go back 100 years, everything we're talking about is pretty straightforward. They'll think about everybody else's nuts. Yes, right. So it's just like everything we're talking was actually like baked in. If you just get out of the water, that is kind of like the Fiat muck. And it's because built into like businesses and it's built in. How do we save and spend in consumerism? But if you go backwards, you're like, Oh yeah, that makes complete sense that you just want a unit. That money doesn't grow on trees. So anyway, it's just just trying to re anchor it. So like. I love that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. So if we take that brother, right, like true Bitcoin or true getting Bitcoin, I realized that I'm not this emotional guy that, you know, I just said I was, I'm very fucking rational. Sorry, can I swear like I'm a very rational guy, You know, like I, I, I just ended up with this conclusion about Bitcoin because of a rational approach, you know, and you just mentioned the word cult. I think it's fun. Like I'm gonna have an episode of the podcast in two weeks with a guy who emailed me because I talked about is Bitcoin a cult on the podcast. And he said, I survived five years in a, in a, in a, in a cult. And I can tell you Bitcoin is the anti thesis of a cult. And I, I tweeted that and then people replied like, oh, you need to talk to this guy. So I I talked to him, but it's so funny. And Thomas Trolley told me the same. This is a cult where everyone says, please think for yourself and don't listen to me. Yeah, so and, and, and so I wanted to address that. But also what you said, yes, Bitcoin sounds too good to be true because exactly what Michael just said, it's such a rational, simplistic thing. And that's why it sounds so ridiculous in the world that we live in now. That's the only reason. Right. It's the world's crazy around us. It's typing. That's what people in the cult would say, right? But, but I, I really think it's that, right? Because the, the Fiat money is so it's so obfuscated, abstracted, you know, I mean, I talked to a guy in a podcast, Leon Vancombe. I, I maybe you know him like he's really into real estate and Bitcoin. He's a masters of economics, OK. And he told me I never learned what money is in my entire study. So how should a normal person understand what money is, right? Like it's just that is the paradigm that we grew up in and that's why Bitcoin just sounds too good to be true. Yeah, it really is such a big idea and I forget who made the point earlier, but most people don't even understand a, a 10th or 100th of how big of an idea Bitcoin is, right? Most people are stuck where we where you were Brahm in 2014 or where I was in 20/17/18 and even a little bit maybe 2019. Just trying to figure out what actually is important here. And I think it does tie into a how big of an idea it is. And Jesse's done great work in terms of looking at Bitcoins pulpit full potential valuation and the idea that Bitcoin is not an investment, right? It's it's a savings technology. And if you're looking at it as an investment, then naturally you're just looking for a return on your capital. You're not actually looking for a better way to preserve your wealth or a better form of money that can let you transact globally and freely. You're merely looking for something where you could park euros in or dollars in and you can get a return on that capital, you know, a year or five, ten years from now. But it realistically, when people think about crypto, they're thinking about very short term grades, maybe algorithmic trading. So it is just the idea that we're talking about a better form of money that is fundamentally a savings technology. And we're all using that. And I think it does tie into BRAHM, what you're working on with the podcast Bitcoin for Millennials, right? Because I'm really curious, maybe it's obvious and it's because you are a millennial, but why did you choose to focus on the millennial cohort? And really what is what are you trying to drive at? What is your mission of the podcast? And does it tie into this idea of Bitcoin being a savings technology that we, you know, we all have easily accessible to us? Yeah, I'll, I'll create a bridge to get there because I wanted to share, you know, like I only found these other dimensions of Bitcoin like this, this the, the economical part and the financial part. I really got that three years ago. But in, in 2017, I worked at a big bank. I was 30, I had a mortgage. I was already in the Bitcoin. I was walking around in this big bank. You know, I always felt undercover with my little Bitcoin pin on my, on my, on my, on my backpack. And then I talked to a colleague and at one point he told me, I don't know how we can, how it came about. But he said, like, did you know that the money in the bank is not yours? And I was like, what? Like, OK, how, how, how does that work? And then we had lunch for an hour and he told me, you know, fractional reserve banking. And I, I remember walking away from that conversation being like, I'm an idiot. Like I work at a bank, you know, I have a mortgage, I'm participating in this system, I'm looking into this other system, but I don't even see this bigger picture. Like, how do they compare? Like, why, why do I participate in something that I don't understand? Right. Like, remember, as, as I said before, like I like to tinker with stuff to understand how it works. And, and this was really just one conversation where I was, I don't want to say shattered, but really confronted with my own, yeah, inability basically, right. And so I was participating in something in, in not such a conscious way. Well, eventually, you know, I found this financial and economical angle more and more and I started studying it. But I wanted to, I want to share a tweet that I, I, I shared yesterday was from a screenshot from like a forum where someone said, you know, I lost interest, etcetera. And so I said, if you look at Bitcoin from just one perspective, as we talked about, right, like only tech or networks or money or economics, like you will not fully grasp it and eventually you lose interest. And that's why you really need to study, right? And someone replied, he said, you know, I spent countless hours at the Internet intersection of economics, tech, etcetera. But then someone replied and said, monetary, spiritual, health, wealth, religious time, psychological sovereignty, freedom, free speech, like energy, abundance, investment, accounting. And I'm like, you had all these topics relate to Bitcoin and that is, you know, eventually it's very simplistic. But you need to study these things to to grasp why the simplicity is so beautiful and to get them to your question. I think that that's the bridge. Like when you are young and especially, you know, as millennials in a Western country, I think we grew up in the best time to ever grow up of anyone whoever lived, OK, you know, housing, food, schooling, protection, all these things were all there. And when you would go to a store or you wanted like an ice cream or a lollipop, whatever, you got some coins or, or a bill, right? You went there, you just gave this thing, you got the ice cream bag, OK. You know, apparently this is how it works in in my country. It's very techno technology forward, so very early Internet. We have one of the best payment infrastructures in the world, right? Like everyone thinks it just works and it does work, but that is why you never question it. And the people for who it really worked, like our parents or the boomer generation, like they sold us not in a malicious way, right? But they sold us their story of how they built Wells, how they built their life, when they got married, when they got children, you know, how they went through school and got a job and like just the, the, the, the, the classic picture, right? But the reality shows us that that is not attainable for most millennials. And the millennials are now in ages, right? For millennials, I think that started like 7778 till like 9094. You know, we are in this age range of either starting families or having a young family, you know, people are certain, you know, amount of years into their careers, etcetera. Like you're thinking about how do I build out my life. And yeah, in reality, it's just not possible in the way that was told to you. And for me, yeah, that was just a really big reason to, you know, tell people about Bitcoin because I think Bitcoin, I had Keith Laska on and he said to me, Bitcoin is the S&P 500 for millennials. And I thought, you know, that's a that's a good idea, a good a good term. And I also had AI had an event where we had dinner and I said across from a guy who said, I love your podcast. And you know what I think is brilliant? The name like it shouldn't exist. Bitcoin for millennials. I shouldn't be explaining Bitcoin to millennials. It shouldn't be necessary. And when he said that, I was like, damn, that's a good. I never thought about it like that, but it's that we really need it. But it's a real life raft for millennials. That's kind of how I see it. I. Mean it's really noble that you you're working on this and explaining it because we're all millennials and it's like you said, you kind of got sold a bill of goods and then we all know no matter where you're at, specifically Western countries like lack of marriage, lack of birth rates, home ownership, and you get all the tech like you reference. But we the bill of goods we were sold is like the meaning of life or happiness comes from like things that are value, not from like the, the fastness of trading or the the bank job where like you know you have the debt from school and then you go get the big house and the car. And so there's a there's a proxy of Bitcoin saving from a capital perspective and like you're not on the hamster wheel so you can have freedom to to think and move, but then there's the other side of it. It's just like, think from a first principle perspective, like what gives? Because once you have enough money, then you're like, wait, that's not the thing that actually provides. Exactly. And that's what, so you got robbed on both sides before you don't have money. You think money is the only thing that makes you happy. And so you can't have kids and family then once you get money, if it's not the real money, then you're you're still unhappy because you're chasing some like things that are fleeting always. And so on both sides, people are just very unhappy. And we kind of see it in society. But I think just this topic is so interesting. Our grandparents probably got married at 20 or 21, and they got their first kid, right? Just think about how that is now. Like who? Now we think that's a mistake, right? If people do that, right, just just see how that changed. Yeah. In three generations. Totally. And, and, and I think that comes back to like what you could afford on like a entry level salary. You know, in the 50s, sixties, you could, you could start of a family and on one salary and buy a house. And, you know, that was that was totally viable and that allowed for family formation to happen in early 20s. Whereas now it's like you just don't as a millennial, you just don't feel financially secure even now. Like if it wasn't for Bitcoin, I wouldn't feel like I had my feet under me. Yeah, you know. But how bad is that? It's insane, right? That is crazy. We are immensely privileged and lucky that we got here already. Yeah, the I saw a stat just earlier before we started recording that the income required to Ford the average house in the United States in 2020 was about 50,000. It was $53,000 and in 2020 $421,000. So just to the point you're all making, I, I don't know me personally how, where I would be right now in terms of my hopes and aspirations for the future if it wasn't for Bitcoin. Because look at that $75,000 increase in the price of homes in a matter of four years. Very, very small percentage of people are making, you know, maybe even 10% more than they made in 2020. So Bitcoin truly is it's many things, but it does allow for us to level the playing field in some senses. And Bram, I agree with the sentiment that you had growing up in the 90s was was awesome kind of living both in the analog and digital worlds. But unfortunately now with central banks and governments and they're just the centralization around the money, there's this continued incentive to really not allow for, I guess, a reset of the financial system, right? There's the incentive to continue to kick the can down the road. And what that means for anyone who's around our age and 30s and 40s is there needs to be another way to grow your wealth. And I don't think I really don't think unless you're phenomenal at finding, you know, the best demographics to purchase real estate or you're a fantastic equity researcher can find companies that are far undervalued in public markets or private markets, whatever it may be. Most people are going to continue to see their quality of life decrease year over year. And it's really just a sad thing. And I think that's a used Michaels word. It is a noble effort that you're on Braun, just in terms of education and ultimately you might have not even been been here, right? If you in 2014 into 2017, you thought you figured it all out with altcoins and maybe you contributed your expertise and knowledge to build out other businesses or other podcasts that weren't focused on such a great idea and kind of a monetary revolution that is Bitcoin, right? So I guess it's all to say that this culmination, this journey that we've all been on has LED us to this point now. And we're able to hopefully distill and share our learnings with with the folks who listen today so that they can get a little bit further ahead and at a faster rate than we were able to. Does your Bitcoin custody setup keep you up at night? Maybe you still have coins sitting on an exchange worried about hackers. Or maybe you've set up your own self custody, but don't feel safe with your Bitcoin savings stashed on a little plastic device in your desk drawer. Gain Peace of Mind with Onramp and our Multi Institution custody solution. Here's how it works. Onramp creates a dedicated multi sig vault just for you. 3 separate institutions each hold a key, Onramp bit go and coin cover, but none can move funds unilaterally. Instead, only you have control over your coins with Onramp's multi institution custody. You'll sleep better at night knowing your Bitcoin is stored with best in class security on chain with fault tolerant multi sig. 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I think post 2020 with the amount of money that's flowed into the system, it just keeps pace with inflation. Like the real price, maybe you get some like large moves, but you obviously like it kind of smooths out when you start to look at, you know, year over year. Specifically things that you want when it comes to like real estate or anything that you want to buy from a sizeable. Imagine buying 60, you know, $65,000 Bitcoin a day and three years from now where that price kind of like Nets out at and what's inflation? And we kind of see it today, right? Everybody's excited about all time highs, but like inflation adjusted, I think we're still underneath where we were in 2021. So that just kind of puts the focus, even if it's not exact, it's directional of like we're moving so far backwards. And unless we adopt Bitcoin, you're basically just like out of the game when it comes to being able to stay alive. The other thing that's like really fascinating, it's kind of like a meta concept of like if Braun doesn't exist, Bitcoin doesn't exist. And what I mean by that is this sense of like, it's obvious that Bitcoin can't exist without the Internet, but let's pretend there was no like actual podcast videos or content that existed on the Internet. So you have just telecommunications protocol where you can send the Bitcoin. It's like we don't get to this point. Maybe we get to 100 bucks, whatever number, but it doesn't get to where it is. And it gets to where we're at in the same way that, like everything on the news now is very questionable, where you see stuff on Twitter and you're like, wait, is this real? And then now most people probably on this Potter in their fringes, a conspiracy theorist for their family. And I and I believe that's to be true. It's because the Internet now just like allows you to get in the information that wasn't, that didn't exist before. So these concepts about money and banking and all that, they just didn't exist. And now you like, it's all there. And so you have podcasts and you're synthesizing all of this information in the form of an hour and it lets you get up to speed. That would have taken you 30 years to read a book that like Henry Ford had to figure out. Now you can come to it. So it's just, it's a fascinating idea that like the more the content gets better and more distilled build, the faster this all happens. And even though you could have a landline to send Bitcoin through or whatever, you couldn't really get here until the Internet was available in the concentration of the content like Jesse's writings and and you know, Michael Saylor's and all these things had to happen. And then we've seen it's gotten tighter over time because like 10 years ago is nowhere near now. It's like, it's excellent. You can give somebody probably a couple hours and they you probably at least give him a string to pull on to be interested. I think this is the explainer of why Bitcoin is an idea whose time has come, right? We, we talked about the reason of existence. That is why this is, this is manifesting at this moment, right? Like people are more open to talking about money or questioning the money because it's really bad, right? And once you go into it, and I don't think you have to get into it that deeply, you know, some people can explain it in a very rational way as you guys just shared, like they have to kick the can down the road. Debasement is a mathematical fact, right? It is going to happen. It's not going to change. And I think the bigger team is kind of like centralization and decentralization, right? I think AI is going to do a lot there, but it it's yeah. And this is how I also, I don't know if you want to go this way guys, but like more the spiritual or like the even higher level part, right? Like if the the pendulum swings one way to towards this centralization, you know, of control and power and we are moving in this other way and people feel that right? I, I do think we are guided by something that is bigger than us, not necessarily in like, OK, you have to do this And, and, and you know, Obama does this and Jesse does this, etcetera. But it's the awareness of what is going on, how our lives are captured in a certain way. How you know, back to that millennial topic, how your future is basically stolen from you, right? One, one of my biggest inflection points was when I heard save Dean say save Dean a moose from the Bitcoin standard, say like everyone discounts the future, right? Because you don't know how much time you have. And then I thought, OK, that's true. But what if I do something now that gives me a certain monetary reward and I want to save that towards the future to spend it on something else, whatever that is, whether it's in a month or a year or three years. And I think that was right around the time when I saw the startup. So I, I, I got some money and I was like, yeah, this, this is, this is really it. Because if I, if I'm not able to, to take what I have now towards the future, then it, it kind of discounts the future even more because I have this opportunity to move towards the future, build towards the future. But if I know that the energy that I gathered right now, at this moment will be worth less in that future, then yeah, why would I even do that? Because I already discount the future and you know, then I, I am lucky that I found Bitcoin, but there's, and so, so I'm protected in that way, but many people do not have that. And you know, I think the saddest thing is, is I, I had a real life conversation. So I, I know people talk about, you know, not having kids and all, all these things, but I had AI had AI, had a real life conversation with someone who shared that he didn't want to have kids like my age. And I asked him like, OK, but what is like, why, why? And then just, he shared, you know, he's pretty nihilistic about the world and, and you know, about the future, etcetera. And it really hit me. And I also asked him like, OK, but like, this is a with all due respect, but like, did you give up or like, what? Like how, how do you get to this, right. And I, I understand that it's annoying when someone with kids talks to someone without kids, right? Because you don't understand etcetera. But I really just wanted to know. And then he said, yeah, I do. Like it's just, that's why I don't want to have that have them, you know, I just take care of my girlfriend and, and my parents and I work and blah, blah, blah. And I really walked away from this conversation. I don't know, a bit shocked, right, Because I know as a parent that, you know, this is the only thing why we're here. And and it does not revolve around money, right? Like you can raise a kid with all the love in the world with some money or a lot of money, you know, like it's not about that. And I feel that once you kind of get touched in that thing that like biological urge that everyone has that we all share, if that gets corrupted, man, then we are very far away from what we are, you know, supposed to be doing, right? And perfectly said corrupted there. And I feel like it's it at the heart of of human psychology is the belief that we can make a better future for our our children, right. And and that like drives everything in about how we operate, what we do everything and Fiat money is inherently this philosophy of, of the future will be worse than today. And that's so incompatible. So fucking stupid, yeah. And so it's so. Irrational. It doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense forced into this world where you like, you live within those constraints and then you end up with nihilism and people don't want to have kids or start families. But and then Bitcoin presents this opportunity to just like switch back into a philosophy of the future will be better than today. Yes, exactly. Also for me and then for my children. Yeah, right. Like it's. It Brent, something you you nail or you hit on that I haven't talked about is like we know the demographic changes and you know, lack of children or few less children in marriage. But the thing that I I was interesting, just like not particularly religious into anyone particular religion, but just went back randomly. I don't know why, but started reading all these religious texts and you see all this everybody knows like sacrifices and that they sacrifice children, all this crazy stuff. And at the you read it, you're like, this is this is insane. That makes zero sense. But at the time, if you think about it, it made complete sense. They had their reasons in the same way, like we'll look back at here and there'll be different things that are that won't make any sense in a future state if this all plays out the way we believe that Bitcoin is sound money. Where I'm going with that is effectively what is described or your friend described as like the sacrificing of children, like it's sacrificing himself or not having a child. And like we see these things play out and manifest and we don't know necessarily why at the time, but that's effectively what what's happening is that we're sacrificing children for money. That's a that's. A good point. That's basically what's happening is saying, because I remember going to the dentist and having a very like wealthy or somewhat in from western side wealthiness. And this is what I think really hit me was the dentist was telling she had two or three kids and she's like, Oh, I'm done. And she's like, we love more. And he's just like, well, what do you what do you mean you're done? And it's like, well, because we can't afford it. And So what do you mean you can't afford it? And it's just like, they're so literally, like, again, it's not maybe it's not literally sacrificing control, but they are sacrificing bringing in another human into, into this world because they do, they believe that they won't get the extra DoorDash, the extra vacation, the extra retirement. And so again, it's not apples apples, but it's directionally what would probably have been thought of there is like, This is why I'm doing it that way. So yeah, it's, it's, it's really messed up when we're how we've gotten that far that it's just, to your point, just built in our DNA to reproduce. And now it's like, oh, it's OK, I'll just get the dog. I'll, I'll be all right. It's so crazy. Yeah. I mean, perhaps this is a nice bridge to, you know, another inflection point for me when I don't know if it was on Breedlove or Knutes Funholm. Like they were talking about like Austrian Keynesian economics when someone said, you know, economics is not a science, it's a social study, right? It's how people communicate and interact with each other, how they defined value, etcetera. Like on top of that, yes, you can calculate about like all these things, but but in essence it it's like a social study and the Keynesians, they create all these rules that eventually they are manipulating all the time because fundamentally it's all flawed, right? So to keep it alive ego wise, they have to manipulate all the time. But by manipulating the rules of this, what would occur as natural marketplace of ideas, right? Ideas that people eventually spend their time on and, you know, build things or, or have a job. That's that, that natural occurrence basically that, that organic behaviour is influenced by rules that are set by just a, a few, you know, a centralized group of people basically. And people are following that. And so they are trying with rules on paper, they're trying to change this. I don't want to say biological behaviour, but let's call it organic behaviour, right? And because it's such a bad idea, this permeates into everything, literally what we just talked about, right? The result of having such a bad money is that you're influencing the natural choices that everyone before you, before your life made. So you are here, right? And then you say because your money sucks. Well, this was it. You know it insane. Really insane. That that does cross my mind with people who, who aren't going to have kids, especially for like the sort of political reasons of like, you know, global warming or whatever, the world's going to be a bad place. And so I don't want to bring kids into that world. And I can't help but think about the millions of generations going back that they, you know, they are their family tree goes back for millions of generations, you know, into chimpanzees. And they are breaking that continuity because they've been hoodwinked by the politics of our era. Yes. Like what a what a colossal tragedy that is for their for their family line. Imagine I think about this a lot. Like I'm really into like ancient civilizations and stuff like that. I think about this a lot, right? Let's say we are hunter gatherers and every day we are busy getting food and not trying to get the women killed by the animals, right? We are constantly aware of not dying, either food or protection, right? At one point. So these people are living, you know, the sun comes up, the sun goes down, the moon and the stars come. They look at the sky like, what the hell is going on here, right? And at one point it stops. The sun stops shining, you know, it rains, the snow comes, the children die. And they're like, huh, OK, well, next year or they just continue. They don't know about years or time or whatever. OK, we'll try again. And then it happens again, right? And then the sun comes up and goes down. And I feel like this is the biggest thing that we need to understand, you know, or what I think we all eventually want to understand. That's what I hope I think somewhere within us that is there, right? Like if you look at the sky and you zoom out, like Jessie can zoom out really well and just think about where we are in this tiny speck in Infinity and you know, this, this what is going on? These extensional big, big questions. I, I kind of lost my train of thought, but I I'll try to finish. This is, I feel what we should be talking about, right? But instead there's all these distractions that go against all these again, like organically organic questions or quests or challenges that would come up for any human that we all share, right? And it's because the the rules of a technology that we are using to said Bunny told me this express our express what we find important with each other, right? So what you buy shows what it's you kind of express something, right? Because these rules of this technology change all the time. It gets us further and further and further and further away from this natural, yeah, questioning of or or attempts of trying to understand what the hell is is going on here, right. I see what you're getting at. It's like like humans want to be and should be spending their time on self actualization. Like at the top of Maslow's pyramid and, and because of Fiat and, and how it it makes it harder to, you know, save and build financial security. It forces people to spend their time surviving in the middle of Maslow's pyramid and not being able to spend time self actualizing at the top. And that like to tie it in eloquently, it appeared Peter Till's quote is we were promised flying cars and spaceships or whatever, and all we got was 240 characters because that's effectively what we were supposed to continue to be progressing. And we've just kind of like stopped and we're just kind of hanging out and it's kind of like going back to the cult positioning is everybody feels it here. It's like you kind of have a, you know, or, and the matrix deal. It's like you kind of see through stuff after you get. This because everything else. Is like, it's like I, I, I can like I can see what things for what they are and it just lets you put you in an advantage. Maybe not with it's like the whole dinner conversation. Maybe it's not a great dinner or not great dinner conversations, depending who you are. Maybe just speaking for myself, but when you get to a group like this, you can just speak freely and you can actually talk about the ideas that will ultimately matter once we kind of are done trying to survive. Yeah, but that's also the fun thing of the of the podcast is I talked to so many people and I hear these ideas, right? Like so I talked with Seb Bunny who said we are consumers because the value of our money is the highest in the present moment. One minute from now, it's already worth less, right? So in the present moment, what I just gathered, the economic energy that I have is worth the most. That's why I'm a consumer. That's why we are stuck in this physical consumerist world. We are not thinking about these higher planes, right? And I think, Michael, you know the matrix or I think the Fiat money is the matrix. We are in this constructed paradigm. That's also why Bitcoin is too good to be true, because it's an it's not in this paradigm. It's another thing, right? And and people, you know, this is Jeff Booth talk, right? He, he says you cannot look at the new paradigm from the existing paradigm. You cannot see that you are captured in this thing because you are looking from the thing you know. And what's, what's crazy like to make that one really tangible is, you know, there's there's no shortage of really bad stuff happening right now, like with the floods in the, the southeast of the US and then Lebanon right now there's like invasions. We have a colleague that his family's based there. And the, the longer end of it is that it's like, why don't they leave? And it's like you were to your point about going backwards, like you don't leave your home because it's where all your value is. It's where everything so the looters will come for. It's like you just hold it and where all your wealth is stored. But it's this out of the out of the center in a different plane or paradigm. If you can just leave and you're not anchored to it, you always know that like that is your home, but you're not leaving everything your your home is constructed of like your family and like your wealth and being able to take it and propagate into the future and knowing that you can do that kind of changes the dynamic. We've never had that before. At best, you can trust another bank to do it. And then you're hopefully you know, they'll fulfill the obligations. But I think that's like a key thing that most people haven't woken up to yet is that you're not tied to a geographic location. If things get bad, you can leave with all your money and you're not leaving everything behind. Yeah, that's so true. I mean, even even for things that exist digitally native, like when we look at the numbers on our screen at a our bank account, like Michael you'd shared at some point the I think it's Bank of America outages today, right? So even if you have money that in theory you should be able to access digitally, or if I fly over to Europe, I should be able to use my credit card and purchase things there, But it's still a permission based system. And it's a system, Brahm, as you pointed out that every day that I'm holding these dollars or EUR or whatever I have is a day that I have less of that that tomorrow, right? It is, it's a little hyperbolic to say that because it doesn't necessarily happen in the Western world the next day, but it does happen in other places within a matter of days or weeks. And fortunately, we're not quite there yet. I don't know if we will get there. In Lebanon there were there were people that robbed banks to get their own money. Yeah. And they, they have the same monetary system as we have, right? It's the same field money system. So there is no difference. It's we are just lucky that we are in these Western countries. You even more than me, right, having the world reserve currency. But maybe one more example, like you, you talked about the matrix, then you talked about the number in your banking app, right? Like that's also such an interesting realization that I had that the number in your banking app is just a number in the database. And I've been to the data center of the bank that I worked at, and they have like a twin data center like 2 miles away or five miles away, and they are connected with a wire. So the 1 is a copy of the other. That's basically where all the money is. It's just numbers in the database. There's nothing physical. There's nothing real. There's no save like Scrooge Mcduck, right? There's nothing and literally nothing. And you bet that the Russians or all the adversaries know where all these data centers are, right? So if you sabotage one data center, the money that is not existing is really gone, right? It's for me that is this matrix thing. Like you look at this at this banking app and you see this number. It's literally computer code that shows you here's the value. This is what you, you know, yeah, value in your life. This is why you make certain decisions in your real physical, biological life. This computer thingy right here. And yeah, I just find that so fascinating, so fascinating. It's an. Impressive veil and system that's been constructed because if you think about it, you work your whole life and you create physical value, you put it in the digital database, then you hope when you retire it's going to be there. I think if like again, a brother-in-law, it's like enough dinner conversations and she became a spike coiner because she's like, I can't like if I retired and this all gets wiped away, at least I have like he was maybe a little right. It's just a hedge, which is at least something. But it's a, that's just basically what people believe. It's that's they work their whole lives. They're going to put it in the database and it's going to always be there when they need it and it's going to retain its purchasing power, which is like the first part we already know is fleeting. The second part is for how long. Yeah, but that's why I say Scrooge Mcduck, right? Like people think it's, it's a bank. Like Scrooge Mcduck has, you know, the coins in his, in his vault, They're like that. Yeah. It's just that's not what it is, you know? Yeah, That could even be applied to equities or other securities held within a brokerage account as well. I mean, we kind of assume that we can sell those securities and we can get Fiat money out of the account fairly seamlessly. But there could be a world where there could be some sort of bail insurance, right? Or that the tax laws could change in the US as it relates to retirement accounts and how you can access your funds. And then to Michael's point, physical land as well. Jurisdictions change their laws all the time. Tax rates could change. So there really is nothing like Bitcoin in the sense that you can truly you can own it in a self sovereign way and it actually is a global form of property that doesn't rely on you to ask permission. And that that is true in the sense of self custody. It's also true in the sense of what we do with multi institution custody and just, I guess building solutions. It ties back into the beginning of the conversation, just building solutions with the knowledge that we have and knowing that this is a technology that's only 15 years, you know, 15 years into it's existence. I know there's decades of cryptography and computer science to that predates that, but we're only 15 years into this. So we're still figuring it out as we go. And we need to apply that same level of, I think curiosity and open mindedness that we have as it related to getting into Bitcoin, as it relates to building out solutions as well. And as it relates to education and bringing guests on your show Brahm and exploring maybe topics that are considered more at the cusp of, I guess the Overton window or whatever it may be, right? So I think that just for me personally, and it sounds like for you guys as well, that Bitcoin opened up a curiosity that maybe was suppressed for a long time. And now you can use that to explore whatever it may be, whether it's with, you know, within Bitcoin money economics directly or it's technology philosophy, a lot of the themes that we touched on today. So I think that's just such a fascinating thing about what, you know, why we're all here today. Well, Bitcoin makes me feel again like that 13 year old kid that liked computering and was just on the Internet all day in this endless journey of information. Like, it is that feeling for me, yeah. Yeah. Well, Brahm, I know we're already over on time. So maybe just in the interest of you already being generous with it, is there anything top of mind that we didn't touch on today that maybe you just want to share with the folks, like anything related to the work you're doing with the podcast or anything else? And if not, we could always just do a hand off to where folks can find you. Appreciate your time either way. That's a good question. I think I like that you guys also started this. I think, I think the the one thing as a take away for us, but also for people listening who are getting into Bitcoin or or who are already into Bitcoin, we should not stop talking about Bitcoin. I mean, we touched the philosophical part a little bit, but I really feel like by doing this, we are manifesting this idea, right? Like, as I said in the beginning, I really believe that, you know, all information is already out there. All the ideas already float in the universe. And you know, sometimes you get this idea for, let's say, a business and, and, and it's something you want to pursue, right? I feel that Bitcoin and this, this absolute digital scarcity, it's, it's an invention and a discovery, right? But everything that's created like I just got this. I like the idea of this thing started as an idea in someone's head, right? It started as a metaphysical thing and now it now it now it's here. And I feel the same way about Bitcoin and I feel the same way about education talking about it, trying to I don't want to say Orange Bill people, but challenge people on their thinking right? Like why do you do what you do? Why do you think This is Money or whatever the questions are right? We are doing like collective manifestation all together. Everyone who thinks Bitcoin should exist, yes, it exists, but you know, in, in a way that we think would be meaningful for everyone in the world. And yeah, that, that I think is, is the core of what I'm trying to say is we should just never stop talking about Bitcoin. So I, I think it's really cool that you guys are building a company and building the, you know, out of content, etcetera. Like you never know who you're going to touch. That's something I really learned from the from the podcast and yeah, I think that's just great. So I applaud that. Yeah, this is that's very well said. Excited to go on. I know Jesse, he's been on that's coming out soon with you. And and also to that sentiment of recently you've gotten most excited of like there's a lot of Bitcoin stuff that it will be built needs to be built. But to your point, what happens when the best experts or professionals in their own right learn about Bitcoin and then start iterating and growing on their own thing? Like, it's just such a fascinating idea and concept to think about. So the more individuals that come in, I used to joke around and say, like, the best companies haven't even been built in Bitcoin because the best founders don't even know about Bitcoin yet. Like, they haven't even heard about it. They may have heard about it, but they don't understand what we're talking about. And So what happens when they come in the Bezoses and the Zuckerbergs of the world? Like we're really going to just see amazing things. So Brandon, this was a good kind of preview where I have a lot of things I'd love to chat with you and. Let's let's do that. I'll add one thing to that because this you know, you are also all Internet kids, right? I feel Bitcoin is a true Internet thing, right? And we are acting the meme. The most entertaining outcome is the most likely, right? I mean, we are all tweeting at Michael Dell. Like just show us your Bitcoin holding, right? You're teasing, you're doing. I had a tweet that went viral that said like, if Michael Dell, if Michael Dell buys Bitcoin, I will buy an old Dell computer. I'll make it a note. All these people piled in, right? And, or, and then other people had an idea like, oh, you should refurbish your old Dell stuff, Michael. And then, you know, just start making Dell notes, like stuff like that. I, for me, it's part of this manifestation. Like it's gonna happen. I had another tweet that did really well where I said, you know, Mark Zuckerberg buying Bitcoin will be the top of this cycle. Like stuff like that. It, this is an Internet thing. It and and and I feel that we can really make this happen there's nothing like this Internet culture you know so I. Here's again, on that note, here's this. I was a orange man turned into orange coin. Like, you know, like Trump adopting or embracing Bitcoin is like part of what you just described is just and it's such an insane like proposition. If you would have thought about years two years ago. Yeah, and he doesn't even have to understand it, right. Like he's, he's launching this, you know, stupid coin. You know that that is all noise. You know, if he signs, if if you know and and and shout out to David Bailey, by the way, like he they are in his ear. They are in Trump's ear in in a in a correct way, you know, and he's doing his own shit confidence. Fine, But let's say this there did this strategic reserve bill. I think the first attempt will probably fail, but it draws out people, right? It draws out people that have to create this opinion. And as we know, there are no informed critiques. So why are you against Bitcoin? Show me, you know, give me your arguments. It's going to be, you know, fireworks. I think maybe second, third attempt, let's say that really becomes a bill. Fascinating. Ultimate entertainment, don't you think? Like, then we manifested this 15 or then maybe 17 year old idea from an obscure Internet forum into a law. OK, Yeah. That's a funny thought. Is a funny thought that most of the world will learn about Bitcoin by people trying to say why this bill is a bad idea and people trying to figure out why to oppose a bill sounds crazy. That'll bring in a huge new cohort of people to understanding Bitcoin. I have I have people on Twitter yesterday I had a discussion with a guy who was like super pro EU blah blah. Like I'm, I'm pro EU trade, but not like how the European Union is now. And then he said, oh, you have Bitcoin in your bio or you're a soccer. And then I just quote tweeted a post from me where I calculated, you know, €1.00 in 2000 is now 30 cents. OK. And the euro crashed 99.999% against Bitcoin. I said good luck and then there was just silence, you know. And so this will, yeah, it will draw people out. It will draw people's arguments out and, and we will get the opportunity to counter these arguments. And I think that is the opportunity that we are eventually looking for. That's a great place to stop the show. Brom, thank you so much for coming on. I know we plugged Bitcoin for millennials, but is there anywhere else that you want to send people? Yeah, you people can just find Bitcoin for millennials on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Fountain and they can find me on X Twitter at BR AM K Brom K. Awesome. Thanks, Brom. Thanks guys, enjoyed it. Thanks for listening to this week's episode of the show. 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