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What you're telling me is that music is about to stop and we're going to be left holding the biggest bag of odorous excrement ever assembled in the history of darkness. 1974198792972000 and whatever we want to call this, it's all just the same thing over and over. We can't help ourselves. I say when we. Sell. Hey, OK, I say when we sell. All right, welcome back to the last trade. This week we have James Von Schotten joining us from Coindesk and I'm joined by my Co host Michael Tanguma and Brian Cabela's. Great to see you, gentlemen. James, thanks for joining us this lovely evening of all time highs. We were joking before we hit record that when we recorded the last three last week, we were breaking through 93,000 but really didn't have the momentum to continue on. So we're kind of edging up against 94K right now. James, it probably has something to do with you joining us today and a lot of the bullish takes you'll be bringing to the table. But James, great to see you. How are you doing? Thank. You for having me, guys? Yeah, I'm really excited to just dive into the world of Bitcoin and all the all the derivatives that surround it. But yeah, I'm doing really well. It's an extremely exciting time to be in this space and it's something that I think all of us have been gearing up for, for a number of years now. And I think this most surprising thing is really that I haven't got any text from so-called normie friends or it is relatively quiet. And the sustain. This is another reason why I think the the interest is reasonably low, which is why we can go higher. One of the many reasons. You know, I did get one text on Friday afternoon last week from this individual I met at my buddy's wedding in June and he is like, hey, can we talk about that crypto thing? So I got one on the scoreboard so far. But you're right, James. It's I've gotten a couple, but it's nothing, nothing like you would expect. Like there are people who should certainly be reaching out to me that haven't yet. So. What I found was the catalyst because obviously the with COVID, everyone was sitting at home, nothing to do buying. But even if I'm getting that slightly bit of retail interest, they're not doing that conversion. They're not actually buying Bitcoin or buying crypto. Essentially this. They're just like, oh, it's hit all time highs. Oh, it's whatever. But they're not actually then going and buying it, which was different to COVID because I think everyone's now back into that nine to five mindset and completely leaving us in this new in this other realm. The ears are perking up, but there isn't that actual like, you know, smashed by or like the version of I think where everyone goes down the rabbit hole is they start to wonder like, wait, what's actually happening here? Because that's when everybody starts picking up. It's like rather than just a little by, it's like, let me re evaluate what the Hell's happening. And then that's when you get that like FOMO start chasing and the momentum and then it starts that reflexive feedback loop that were way, way early on. I think it's also hard for us to grasp because we're we're so deep in the space and and to an extent in a, an echo chamber or a bubble. But for the average normie person, like they up until this point where we're making new all time highs, they like legitimately thought it was dead again, right? Like so it's and then the other component of that too is like, even though it's making all time highs, then there's that natural psychological aversion of like, oh, do I want to be buying now at all time highs? And then that's really what you hope just sparks the curiosity to dig a little bit deeper and understand where this actually all potentially goes. And you know, if it keeps not dying and making new all time highs, maybe there's something that you've you've missed previously. Yeah, for me it's once we hit another big round Number. Humans love round numbers. Yeah, 10 Ki thought, OK, Bitcoin's this mainstream asset cements himself. I was wrong. It will be 100K, but the the alarm bells for retail will be Bitcoin at 100K and it's not going to be gold at 3004 thousand, $5000 an ounce. And I think that's the difference because if you ask retail what the price of gold is, they couldn't tell you. But Bitcoin will be on every single mainstream media headline at 100,000. Yeah, that's exactly right. I've long thought I like the framing of the ET, the IPO moment. People reference it as the ETFI, think it's the 100 Ki, think the 100K is that that you kind of invert well, what why can't this go to zero? It's like now where can this actually go to? Can it go to a million? Where is that not to throw more bullishness on kind of what's probably already going to be a very bullish pod, But I, I had some interesting, you know, Bitcoin conversations over the weekend shopping with very like high net worth individuals that I think it's going to be the easiest to the point that we discussed here that it's ever been because of what happened in the past couple of years. And so there's at least that embedded frame of reference that people know there's an asset class that's here, but maybe it's just, it's all like snake oil, whatever. But then the here seeing previous all time highs get breached and then into the 100K and then because the two big lever points was 1 is like, did you know it's 91 K? And then that everyone's ears perk up to like wait with $91,000. But then the second part is just figuring out the way that you reference. It's just a proxy for the amount of money printing because like they already know that the money printing is there. Like 4 years ago it was still kind of taboo. Everyone knows that, like, all this is unsustainable. It costs too much for food. And when you tell them that this is the solution and you break it down in a very concise way, they're like, oh, shit. And then what I found is very helpful is giving them the reason why nobody tells them this story, because they're telling them, you know, they're the Ponzi to buy all these other things or like, go park it in the wrong way. It's like, no, no, like you have to be very serious about this and thinking about your counterparty and also what you buy, and you don't need all this trash. And it's kind of like where our offering comes in. But I think like the market's super prime for this whole thing. So yeah, it's going to be fun. I'm going to take, I'm going to take the other side of the coin and. There we go. This, this reminds me actually, over the weekend, my buddy had a few of us together for his birthday and he was like, you know, I bought $20.00 of doge and I was just like, what the hell, man? I, I had no, I had no words for him. I was just so disappointed because Oh yes, he knows. I know. Well, it's unit there's. I think, I think Jackson's just doxing who his friend group is. I don't think this is a proxy for like, I don't think this is a proxy for like the sophisticated sentiment of investors. I think he just he. You know, I'm, I don't know, Michael, I actually do think that we're, we're still in this weird period where Bitcoin has certainly awoken a lot of very credible allocators in the space and a lot of that has to do with the ETFs. But I would say that majority of people still couldn't fully majority of people that you just would pick off the street, I think would have a hard time discerning the difference between Bitcoin and Dogecoin. But maybe for the people that we're speaking to and you know, James, the people that you're in circles with in the industry, people are really starting to coalesce around the idea that Bitcoin is very different than the broader crypto space. But for most people, they're they're still conflating the two. You're right. I, I, you just jogged my memory. There was a lot of conversation during the one I was referencing around CBDC's and other crypto currencies and had it like, but, but I think those are getting easier to dismiss. But yeah, you're all right. There's also. The conflation there. There, I think it's right, Jackson. But I think at the risk of saying this time is different, I'll say it like no one's talking about a DOGE strategic reserve, right? Like the geopolitical sovereign level game theory is playing out for a specific asset and it's Bitcoin. So I think subconsciously or consciously, I think that's some air cover or signal in the market that Bitcoin is different. I I was just going to say a joke that we dodge government department now. Right. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's, it's not helping our case here, gentlemen, but James, we, we kind of jumped right into it, which, which is a ton of fun. And you know, it's, it's kind of a hot start, which I appreciate, but I don't want to do a disservice to you as well. Just would love to give the audience a better feel for your background mentioned at the top of the show. Your senior analyst at Coindesk, you're focusing predominantly on macro and Bitcoin, but really what you know, how did you get into the seat that you're currently in? What what were your experiences that kind of primed for you to be adopting Bitcoin at a personal level and then, you know, taking the plunge professionally as well and covering the asset class I've. Always had an interest in money, finance, economics, probably through my parents and I first bought Bitcoin already. Actually only really heard of Bitcoin in 2017 so I bought in December. Right at the very top. I think the price was about 19,900 and something and I was like, yeah, it seems like a good buy. So I bought the exact top that you could buy a couple of months later, bear market. But in those couple of years, being really early 20s, didn't really have anything else going on as much. It was just studying, learning. I didn't really take a liking to any of the crypto. I did love the 24/7, the volatility like from that aspect, but I kind of understood the, I understood the gold narrative pretty well. I actually bought gold before I bought Bitcoin, which is quite weird at like the age of 20. And then I realized like shit, like I can't really buy a house over the next couple years unless I put down like half £1,000,000 worth of debt in London. So I thought, OK, this is probably the best way to do it, probably fully understanding Bitcoin at that time. And then not until 2022, I was in normal normally jobs doing a nine to five. And then I thought, OK, I've been learning about Bitcoin for four or five years. I want to take a full plunge at this. I went to Seidler and Co, which is a hedge fund in their research department. So they were just onboarding Bitcoin as a treasury asset for themselves and wanted to understand on chain analysis. And that was kind of the stuff I was just doing on Twitter by myself and just putting charts up where we are in the cycle, that kind of stuff. And started with them and then was there for about a year and a half or so and went to another media publication, Crypto Slate, focusing again on Bitcoin and macro. And then, yeah, just join Coindesk a couple of months ago doing similar stuff and just really understanding the intricacies between Bitcoin and the the macro landscape, really. Are you ready to secure your future with Bitcoin? At Onramp, we're revolutionizing how you can save for retirement. 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On Ramp provides Peace of Mind for your Bitcoin journey, whether for your whole stack or for part of it, as a complement to your existing self custody setup. For more information about our services as well as our new Bitcoin IRA product, check us out at on rampbitcoin.com. Yeah. Now that's awesome and really excited to dig into some of the topics that you've been covering recently. Fascinating to hear that you were at a hedge fund a couple of years back that was already thinking about Bitcoin as a treasury reserve asset. How did, how did that kind of coalesce within the within that organization? Was it kind of driven top down by leadership or was that? Yeah, the CEO at the time, he was a big bitcoiner. They acquired a custody service called Numbers. So they were well ahead of the game. I think they were there since 2013, but they wanted to really like branch out their research department. So that's kind of where I'm, I learned about glass node and all of that kind of other data stuff. And why it was so interesting is like when you trade any of these US equities, you just don't get the granularity of the data that the on chain analysis on chain analysis provides you. You can go so granular with this data and I'm not saying it gives you an edge in the market or anything, but from a data perspective, it is fascinating because it's just a story. And there are so many charts and cycles and metrics that not saying that they time bottoms or tops perfectly, but they give you such good understanding of Bitcoin as an asset and the story of, of its 15 years of adoption and what monetization from zero would really look like. And yeah, it's such a beautiful way of portraying the data. But like 1 metrics for me that just really resonates with this cycle. Comparing it to previous cycles. I'm sure you've seen the, when you look at the Bitcoin price from the cycle low, which was the FTX class November 2022, and we're up about 550, 4-5 hundred percent from the cycle low. But if you take those two previous cycles before, at that point in the cycle, we're exactly where we were. And that to me is just human psychology. You buy Bitcoin when it's depressed really low because you're like, it's so cheap, I just have to buy it. And then it obviously does that whole rebounding phase and the consolidation phase and then that disbelief phase and it's picture perfect, which is one of the reasons why I still ascribe to that four year cycle theory. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there, there's a lot of, I guess debate at this point just how much the having plays into the Bitcoin cycle dynamics. I I would tend to agree with you that it still plays a pretty crucial role and it has to be in part due to investor behavior and human psychology. James Spit to your point is like this chart, there's an interesting one to look at because you can kind of see that we're tracking fairly closely the third and 4th epoch. So the price performance since having right like for those who aren't taking a look at the video for this podcast, we're looking at a chart that shows the first, second, third, 4th, 5th epoch and the price performance after the having. So we're how many days into this one? 238 days and the performance is pretty close to obviously that the first two cycles were disproportionately large just for obviously many reasons, but we're tracking pretty closely to the previous two cycles. James, do you have any thoughts on that? Yeah, I think this kind of goes back to the human psychology. I do think the halving decreases in its relevant cycle after cycle, but again, I think as long as the theory or the narrative continues to stay up, then it's relevant. Until we break the four year cycle, it's not relevant. Yeah, we have these new players in the game, the ETS, MicroStrategy, all the other Bitcoin crypto equities that are doing this playbook. We've never had this sell, this demand sell side imbalance before ever. So that would be one reason why, yeah, we should just break to the upside. You have the other theories of no, we have the diminishing returns theory where each cycled returns get less and less. But again, we're valuing that in a denominated in a Fiat currency that has to inflate in a credit in a in the credit. So you can you can go back and forth with it, but as long as human psychology plays out, I think we're still ascribing to this theory. I'm I'm. Curious to you agree with the notion that the previous cycle was somewhat muted due to what FTX was doing and in various forms of paper Bitcoin? Because I think it was interesting at the beginning of this year when, you know, the ETS were were going live and there was, you know, this thought of oh, we made all time highs for before the halving for the first time. And in the back of my mind I was like, well, yeah, but what if the previous cycle had just played out like it should have? Would we really be above all time highs before the having? Probably not. Curious if if you ascribe to that that line of thinking. So, so two things I do ascribe to FTX muting that cycle on the basis that I actually count the all time high in April is the real time high, not the November all time high from an on chain perspective addresses transaction 3 per everything was yeah, that's a normal all time high. And then we had the China mining ban, which saw that hash rate 50% correction that really stunted any kind of meaningful growth. And then that second-half of 2021 was purely a derivative play. It was just pure leverage. I think it was more from AI think everyone knew inflation was here to stay. the Fed are tightening, central banks are tiny. Let's just get like one more juice out of this cycle. So that 2021 second part completely took me off guard. I wasn't expecting that. So I played it as April was the high and the the next six months kind of threw me because I was so bearish kind of because of the China mining band. And then going into the all time high before the halving, that was one of the calls that I did make because one, I was so bullish on the ETFs and the impact they would have. But what was really interesting was in October of 2023, buying from just before October 2023, Binance was the number one futures exchange, which is completely retail driven. CME, the institutional exchange, was second from October. It became #1 and that's when Bitcoin started to climb. And I was like, OK, these guys are front running this ETF launch. The exact same thing happened in the gold ETF in 2004, just before the ETF launch in gold. Gold hit a 16 year high because all the hedge funds traders were taking a long position on the futures market from running the ETF. The the narrative of the gold and Bitcoin ETS is so similar it's scary. And for the seven years from 2004 to 2011 when gold peaked, the ETF inflows were just inflows, inflows, inflows every single year. And this is I think Bitwise to this unbelievable chart where the the Bitcoin inflows just destroy the gold inflows. And yeah, for the next seven years or however long we are going to get inflows and they are only going to accelerate in my opinion. So yeah, it's, it's so hard to contain yourself and you always have to justify how why you're being so bullish. But yeah, these ETF's have just been just a tremendous success. The sorry, the last thing that I just want to talk about about the ETF's just because it's on my mind is. The basis trade which was the where, where you along the underlying asset and then you'll shoot it short in the futures market and you're capturing that premium that was prevalent at the beginning of the launch that dominated most of the ETF inflows. That's why we were kind of consolidating for other reasons. We were obviously drawing down and consolidating after the all time high. But now these ETF inflows are not basis driven, they are long plays. And I think it's taken almost a year for the hedge funds and these traders to be like, OK, we've developed a big enough liquidity in the market. I'm now comfortable taking a net long position in these ETS. And I think with these launch of options on I bit today with and that's going to grow the spot market, that will grow the options market, that's just going to grow everything and it means bigger positions for these bigger players. Yeah. That's something we talked about all summer long because we weren't seeing that retail interest or demand and that had come up with some folks closer to Wall Street as the basis trade for a lot of these like absorbing these inflows, but also makes sense post that consolidation and what we're seeing now is actual positions being established. Yeah. And this is something like Bernstein these the private asset manager was saying that it takes time for these guys to get a liking and accustomed to this kind of market. And yeah, I think we're here. I think these next 12 to 18 months is the part of the cycle that is the hardest part just essentially set on your hands. But yeah, it's we're now seeing the, the full, almost the full monetization of Bitcoin within all these financial instruments now. Yeah. Curious on your side being so close to the analysis on the listed companies, but then also on the institutional side, where do you see the inflows or majority over the next 12 to 18 months? Because we have a lot of conversations and just from anecdotally, the institution still seem they're very far. Obviously like there's on the margins interest, but they're still like trying to develop a thesis and then the air cover to establish how do they not get because the 2021 is still the top of mind with everyone and like how everything went down where on the treasury, it feels like we're seeing, you know, on a daily basis new firm stepping into the market, specifically listed companies. Curious how you think about that. Yeah. I think if you look at the 13 F filings and the top holders of, I bet they're pretty much all hedge funds and investment companies that are probably doing this basis trade kind of play. And we're not seeing that many net long positions. You've got the Wisconsin pension fund, I think maybe one or two other pension funds, but not many are doing that kind of play. So I think it is dominated by retail. You can see by the size of trade, it's relatively small, OK, comparing to the other ETFs. And then it's really interesting, their cost basis is around I think around 60,000 off the top of my head, the ETF investors and each time we had a 2030% correction, the their cost basis was almost the support for the price. So these guys are really momentum driven. So I'd like to say that is primarily retail, but it is encouraging. Like when we had that yen carry trade unwind in August, I think it was August, the Ibits saw like no outflows like for two days there was no outflows and these guys have stomach 2030% corrections over the year. And I think that just builds that conviction and it yeah, maybe these institutional guys take longer. We know that quarters years. But I think this next quarter coming of the 13 filings, because the one we just saw was the one that wouldn't have the Trump victory and all of the recent price action. I think now we're going to see people and companies scrambling to to actually kind of get a position now because I think the market is now dictating them. They can't really dictate the market. Yeah, those are great points. We're actually taking a look at the ETF data or the 13F data yesterday and kind of digging through the largest position sizes. James, to your point, a lot of hedge funds that are probably, some are long, others are probably have short futures on to hedge out some of the exposure. But taking a look specifically at 13 F filings that came in for firms that have greater than a 5% allocation to Bitcoin or to the ETF specifically was like about 2% or so. And those are ballpark numbers. So only 2% of, let's say, the firms that were in captured in the third quarter filings for the Bitcoin ETFs had greater than a 5% allocation. So it's still in most cases very de minimis. Like you see 10 bit exposure here, 30 bits here, percent here. James, I'll be really curious as well to see what the fourth quarter results look like because I agree with you that markets really like certainty. And we I think now have a lot more certainty as relates to how the political landscape will shape up to be for in favor and supportive of Bitcoin in the broader crypto space versus being antagonistic. So I do think now that that that was probably the biggest impediment to not seeing more institutional adoption and now that barriers been lifted. So it'll be quite exciting to see what happens for the fourth quarter filings because I think it will look vastly different. Yeah, I think, I think we're going to get some form of announcement from someone within the next 6 months will transfer us 100 days. If there is the rumours of the strategic Bitcoin reserve that I've been looking at these, I've just been looking at the Bitcoin price and every time it goes down, I'm like these, there's just bids relentlessly every time it drops. And if you look at the bull market correction draw downs for this cycle, our biggest draw down this cycle has been 25%, maybe 30% of push. If you compare it to other cycles, OK, Bitcoin is becoming more mature as an asset class, but we were seeing 50, sixty, 70% draw downs in bull market. So that's it's normal. And to only get maybe a 30% correction like once, it's just insane. Like we're so used to this volatility and we just haven't really got it this cycle. Yeah, you can talk about the the one or two days where Germany sold or the yen carry trade unwind, but those are like one off events and they kind of rebound straight after again showing that demand for these bids. And we've now been around 90,000 for a week and the market hasn't given up anything really below that and anything below 90,000. But as a joke, a couple of days ago I tweeted that the Bitcoin price went down -0.77%. So I'm going to buy. And it was at 88,000. And that was like the, and that was literally at the bottom. And now we're at 93 1/2. And to me, that is so indicative of like this is relentless bidding. And This is why we're marching on Higher. Yeah, the momentum seems to the structure really changed post election. And to your point being around never seen bid like this where to like the correction's usually there and it's wild to see it run like this and then barely correct and then start marching again. So. This is different, sorry, is in this regard. This is something that US equities and gold do. So gold is made like an all time high this year and like 30 * 35 times like. But every time that Bitcoin makes an all time high, every time people like greed euphoria must sell. It's going to go down again. It did in March. But again, This is why this part is different because we didn't get that correction and all the holders were in profit. Yeah, we saw a lot of profit. Well, actually there was a stat when we broke the all time high for the first time, I think around say 85,086 thousand two weeks ago. There was more realized profit in the 2017 all time high than we saw when Bitcoin broke the $86,000 all time high. And Bitcoin is 4 times greater in nominal value than 2017 all time high. And that to me is wild that there was more profit taking seven years ago because every, because that was a bubble and everyone was like, yeah, take profits. But people like, no, I'm not taking the profits here. Even on an inflation adjusted basis, we're just above. But people were like, no, this thing is going higher. Yeah, there's a, there's a this notion of like, like, you know, this idea of like energy can neither be created nor destroyed. Like the volatility has to exist somewhere always. And so going back to 21 or 22, there's a lot of demand that exists that people don't, don't have exposure or didn't have exposure right from like the paper Bitcoin and whether it was the payouts from Genesis and the other firms. Like there's a lot of people short Bitcoin that want bitcoins independent of like net new market, right? Usually it's like goes back to the FOMO and the, the, the like there's a lot of people going to be chasing, I think even right now and going into it that I don't think we've historically seen willing to step in and then not sell because they have long term conviction versus just looking for, you know, some kind of price, short term price appreciation. Yeah, it's a very weird dynamic. Like you said earlier in the call, this, I think the COVID mentality is kind of changed. I was at a conference last week in Slovenia, a mining conference, and not only obviously everyone's bullish about Bitcoin, but they were also talking about the Fiat currency being like, I don't want it, I don't want to hold it. I don't want to, I just don't want it. And it's not even that they wanted Bitcoin. They were learnt, they had to learn about Bitcoin. They were just like, I don't want this. And like, that's the first time for me really that a lot of people were like, don't want it. And they just outright like just rejecting it. And again, that's part of the mentality, probably the game theory of what is your denominator in this world? And it was again, interesting to see that the All In podcast with the four of them talking about what do you actually do? You see Bitcoin as a denominator for the world against goods and services. And again, that's a mindset to have as well. So I think this all takes time, but it's mad how this is all happening and it's happening quickly. And COVID did accelerate this by a number of years. It's funny you mention all in because we've talked about this before and like, you know, it's it's advantageous or hell, easy for them to not talk about it or think it's a joke when the price is low, because that's just who. And then also the debt cycles and they have investors and they have to just kind of appeal to them. But I've always had this contention that like Chamoth is probably the smartest one on that call and he he grocks what's happening, but it's just not in his best interest to explain it to like long large investors that the dollar is going to end and all the things associated. But on this last call, he kind of hinted at it in like understanding the dynamic of like, it's like, hey, guys, like right now we're not the dollar's not ending. Like, so let's just not talk about it. It's not being used. That's OK. That's your vision of the future. And it's almost like he bought into it. But it's like, right now we have to live in the present and this is what it's used as a store of value. But that was very subtle and nuanced and understanding this notion where most people just think that these guys don't get it. It's like, it's like, you know, it's the same thing as Elon where people don't think he gets Bitcoin. It's like we get it, like we get consensus, we get there's only 21 million. Like the one of the smartest people, you know, that this guy just like fundamentally doesn't get all of this. Like I, I don't, I just don't buy into that. No, I believe Elon fully understands it. He holds 12,000 on Tesla's balance sheet. If he didn't, he'd sell it. He's. And SpaceX, I believe. And yeah, and SpaceX as well. So yeah, he probably holds around 20,000 Bitcoin. And personally, I, I assure you he probably holds a lot as well, But it was also from the all in podcast, the two things. The second thing was the opportunity cost. And this is what a lot of people can't understand that I have friends trying to flip flats and the work they're trying to do. And that's not even their primary job. They have no experience with real estate, but because they've seen their parents do it, they're like I always say, I could go on about an hour just on about real estate, but the the the work they're doing and I'm just sitting there. I'm just like, just buy a bit of Bitcoin. Like it'll be it's just a lot less work and do the work, but it's less work holding it. But it's either stubborn ego or and I think that general or my parents generation just kind of skewed everyone else below them's values, visions of what the world should be. And but yeah, it's again, it's another mentality and a way of thinking about the world. It reminds me of one of the slides in Sailors recent presentation he's been giving where he just has a slide of 22 columns lists of all the different costs and frictions associated with owning property. And when you put it in that light, it's like, yeah, no, this is this is just the best form of property. There's no cost associated, no upkeep. You don't have to get after your tenants like it's, it's very simple and straightforward. So I think that's been an, an effective one for reaching these segments of the market that, you know, it sounds like your, your friends or, or peers are in where it's like they need, they know they need to do something right. And they've landed on, you know, what their parents did let's, you know, flip some flats. But it's like, no, there's just a much, much easier, cleaner way to do this. Were you, were you referring to the say, the presentation, the one he did at Cantor? Yeah, it was. It was that one, I think it, I think the one he did in Nashville was similar. It had some of the same slides in it. But yeah, it just goes through all the costs associated with owning property. Yeah, that, that presentation was absolutely incredible. Really. I heard that this past week from somebody and I and they made a note. They were like called out, like you got to go listen to it. And I wrote it down. I haven't gotten to it. Yeah. Yeah, so I've been, I've been the biggest Mike Shashi ball since almost October of 2020. But one of the reasons is for the as the UK don't have access to an ETF or anything like that more. I'm sure we'll be getting on to that later. So you have all this Fiat essentially sitting in a pension and I was like, OK, this guy is buying it. But it was more it was a defensive play for Michael Saylor. He's like, I've got all this cash done, what to do with it? OK, I'll buy Bitcoin And then some of us in the UK are like, oh, OK, that's quite cool. We'll just give him our money and see what happens. And it's thank you to the FCA because without them, our our returns have just been magnitudes greater than anything that we could have hoped for. But what what Michael Saylor has done in this past, I can say week, but he's just rewritten the financial playbook and I I just don't understand how how anyone isn't talking about it. It's it's it's mind blowing. It's when you first find Bitcoin, your mind's blown when you actually first understand it. And then when you read about microstretchy and the whole play he does, it's like it. It just blows your mind like multiples more and how it all converges with one another. It's just, it's, it's insane. It's so hard to even talk about this to other people because it's just a completely different way of thinking. It's very true and it's crazy that the average normal person still has no idea who this Michael Saylor guy is. Like maybe they saw I remember because it always comes up on on Twitter of like, I guess it was some maybe New York Times or some other mainstream media when it was like basically the depths of the bear and it was like sailor bet billions and lost. And so everybody references that now that he's, you know, obviously way up on the position, but it's like for most people, like I think they they probably don't even know who this guy is. So it is mind blowing to your point. And yeah, you've done a great job of sort of covering everything going on with with MicroStrategy on your Twitter. I'm curious like what is your any thoughts around the most recent sort of announcements of the 42 billion and do you think that he gets through all of that like in the next couple months and and issues another announcement or what do you think? 21 billion of of the ATM equity offering, I think he's gone through about 5 billion already and I think he'll be through it by mid-december. So the, the three-year projection sounded normal when he did that earnings presentation, which was again, one of the best earnings presentations I've ever sat through just from a visual learner, just to see all those charts and graphs is insane. And the transparency is, is also incredible. But yeah, he's going to go through that ATM, definitely before the end of the year. And then he's just issued another convertible note for 20/29 at 0%, which is insane because it's essentially saying that these, these bond buyers don't want any interest on the debt. They'll just take like the 2027 note, it's above par by 170%. It's the volatility on these products is, is insane. And that the performance of these bonds, I think on a blended basis, all 5 convertible notes have outperformed Bitcoin since he's issued them. And we're talking about bonds here. Like that's not meant to happen in, in today's what whatever. So yeah, he has 6 convertible notes going out from 2027 to 2032. Two of them I believe are eligible to be converted. I, I don't know the specific details of I believe by mid-december, around mid 7 to end of the year that they could all be eligible to convert. So that could be short term bearish that the they get converted into equity just increasing the outstanding shares and with the ATM as well. But I think issuing a convertible debt with 1.75 billion repricing is going to go to 2 billion which is going to be their largest convertible bond by over 1 billion. Just shows that the institutional demand again, so many institutions and people cannot get access to this product and like me, you essentially are have to buy it. And there's probably all people, all investors all over the world scrambling for this kind of instrument. And then you've got people crying about enough premium that's trading at like 3X. I'm like, yeah, so I'm buying it at 170 two, 100,000 a coin like that's cheap because where else is my money meant to go? And I don't know one company that trades at book value and you look at any of these companies and we're again, we're denominating in Fiat. It makes no sense to. He's thinking, oh, it's got a trader, it's book value, it's insane. But what's really important is to keep looking at its Bitcoin per share, which is the Bitcoin holdings against its shares outstanding. And that made another year to date high or a new all time high. So again, that's accretive for shareholders and that that's I think that's all that really matters. It's going to get harder for him. But look, he's going to, he's going to tap this ATM. He's going to issue even more convertible debt. It'll be in huge new rounds for every single year again and more ATMs. But as long as people need access to these instruments, the demands there, that's evident. Does your Bitcoin custody setup keep you up at night? Maybe you still have coins sitting on an exchange worried about hackers. Or maybe you've set up your own self custody, but don't feel safe with your Bitcoin savings stashed on a little plastic device in your desk drawer. 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You're always just waiting for the shoe to drop and it didn't drop, but there was sailors stepping in and it feels very similar to like this run up where people were talking about maybe there was a sovereign stacking, but it's like sailor was picking up all that coin from 70 to 90. And it's just a curious thing to think through like that mental the the exercise of like, what does the market structure look like without a, without MSTR, you know? Should ask the the Bloomberg analyst, he he he he loves ETFs and he he thinks that ETFs without it would be 30 K Bitcoin price, which is just incorrect. The the ETF trade volume is like a couple of percent of the entire market, like the futures and spot market is multiple times greater than the ETF market. Yet again, we can speculate, yeah, the price would be significantly lower without Michael Saylor. But again, I think we need to appreciate how big this market is. So for example, Michael's micro strategy bought 50,000 Bitcoin last week and everyone's like, all right, the price did go up or but was that why did the price not go high? And we have all these ETF inflows, but long term holders. So anyone that's held Bitcoin for 155 days has they've sold about 300,000 Bitcoin. So there is, as the price goes up, you are going to get these sellers and it just has to try and find that balance. But like we were saying that the profit isn't as great as it is and we are getting this huge demand of buyers. So that's why I think the price going up higher than we and quicker than I expect. But for every buyer there's a seller and the higher we go, we will get sellers. So I, I just don't think people appreciate how big the Bitcoin market is when we think it's just ETS, why they like the inflows is strong, why we're not seeing the price go up. It's a lot and it's like, it's like Germany, they sold 5060 thousand Bitcoin within a week. Maybe it was OTC, but the, the market Fram run it, it knew the news or the market was bigger than expected. And it we do need to realize that this is almost a $2 trillion asset now and what is it the 7th largest in the world. It's a lot bigger than we give it credit for because I think we're still in the mindset that it's it's really niche and we're the only ones here buying it. Yeah, and we're going to see Wilder things happen, I'm pretty sure, because if you think about it like you can just insert another firm if MicroStrategy didn't do it, somebody else is going to use the tools at their disposal to go stack Bitcoin in any way. And it's just a symptom amount of liquidity in this in the system, all the, you know, capital chasing any kind of yield where all this construct is developed. So it's just going to get weirder from here. It's not actually going to get tempered. Yeah, we saw Mammoth and also issue a convertible note and that also got oversubscribed and they had to reprice higher. And miners are very different to micro strategy. And something I've really learned this week is I think why the market takes a liking to micro strategy and maybe some of the scientific more than the miners is that their playbook is so clear, concise and coherent. You know exactly what they're going to do. I was reading that marathon just announcement and I was like what, how much are you going to buy of Bitcoin? What's your asset expansion going to be or what do you need to buy? And it was quite confusing on what where the cash is going to be deployed. But with micro treasurer, you know exactly what's going to happen and the markets love that certainty. So but it also shows that marathon's down year to date, but their bonds are getting bought up like no other. So again, the institution appetites there on a 0 coupon. So when is the It's also perplexing how are companies not doing this? It's free money, so yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's just. Insane. It's. Sailor's been doing it for a while. And I mean, he's just like a mad genius. Got to give him give him props for just executing this playbook. And I agree with you, James, there's a lot of, there's still a lot of barriers to entry as it relates to getting access to Bitcoin. And that's why you are seeing so many institutional players gravitate toward MSTR and some are scientific because to your point, they're very transparent about how they're executing their strategy. And there are such limited amounts of ways for a lot of people to participate in this market that, you know, they, they kind of find themselves having to, if they want to have exposure to bitcoins upside, they have to participate in something like that where it's not directly, they're not participating directly in the asset, but they have financial instruments or proxies to do so. I mean, I even just, I even experienced this might have been last week or the week before where I don't need to disclose the firm, but I had brokerage accounts and retirement accounts with a large broker dealer in the States here. And I was just taking a look at my accounts for the first time in quite a while and I'm doing some personal consolidation and I had some cash just sitting in my Roth account. So I was working with the, the FA who kind of manages everything. And I was just like, could you just put all the cash into into FBTC and they couldn't trade that for me. They they still are not allowed to place any of their clients assets into the Bitcoin ETFs. And this is like a massive broker dealer in the United States. So what did I do then? Well, I said put it in the micro strategy. And because I didn't want to be out of the market because I was consolidating things, I was rolling things over. That takes 10 days, 14 days depending on, you know, the process and the custodians that you're dealing with. So I was like, I want to be in the market. I know I feel pretty confident that we're going to continue to tick up higher from here. And I don't want to be having to, you know, buy things two or three weeks down the road. So just a personal anecdote that really speaks to like there's so many people who literally go to their financial advisors and say, I want to be allocated to this asset class and they still can't do it. They can only do it through MSTR or other public equities. Yeah. And you've also got Vanguard not offering it, another a number of asset managers not allowing investors to buy. I was reading something about ibit was only approved for only 25,000 contracts as a position limit. I haven't actually dug into this. I just saw it was a top line thing and I think Jeff part from Bitwise was talking about it. So I haven't dug into the details. But again, there's a limit or there's something that, OK, it's not just here you go and we're going to replicate how we've done for other asset classes. So it's that barrier to entry like you were saying, it's there's always a restriction, there's always a limit. And I think Bitcoin just hit 94,000 and it's it's almost like it doesn't really care what these Trav 5 people are trying to stop exist. Yeah, it's such a key point that I was going to, I was going to bring up is like anecdotally, I've so we try to be very diplomatic and buttoned up in the sense that we want to work with a lot of the traffic. I help them get their, you know, solutions in place. But at the same time, to your point, it's the whole notion of it's just like the Internet, like you either jump on board or you don't. And it's not the perfect analogy, but it's like this notion of like the travel agent and like how you can now go online and get everything. It's like in a future world, if you really dig into the monetization of all these assets, do you really need a financial advisor to break you down how to manage your 60 board and take your X percentage and what's happening? I'm starting to see anecdotally from like this, this group I was talking to this week and I've heard it from like my mother in law's, they're getting really annoyed when you bring up exposure and that their financial advisor is get them out of like other exciting or more interesting things. So imagine like you have this like, you know, format where you take their advice, but they're actually like at best not losing you in real terms. Maybe they're getting some small return, but in or nominal terms, some small return in real terms. You kind of feel that you're kind of coming backwards because everything's getting more expensive in your retirement isn't actually like outpacing it. And you know, like you're not dumb. You made all that money. It's always been weird to me that you people just give all their money to somebody else to manage. But that's a different note. Like so they accept that and then they kind of know intuitively something's not right. And then you kind of tell them about this and like, Oh, I can't. Or I've tried to ask them and they don't tell me anything. There's this pent up like like frustration that's happening and it, and it's I don't care because I'm not a financial advisor. But if anybody's listening, it's like it's it, it's to the point people doesn't care. It's like the Internet doesn't care. It's going to do its thing and you get left behind and you got to figure out a way to get like them involved because people are going to literally leave that. It's their money. And we, we've talked about this in the past, but I think we are now really approaching the point of, of the career risk flipping from you're worried about getting fired for allocating to Bitcoin where you should be worried about getting fired for not allocating or at least having it on offer to your clients, educating them about it, you know, having thoughtful responses when they inevitably ask you about it. Like that is I think we're pretty much there. And, and, you know, as we were talking about before, like the 100K mark will accelerate that even further where if you are acting in a fiduciary role, you better have a good answer why you didn't bring it up with your client because they will leave, they will leave your firm, they will pull their money out because, you know, their friends, their peers have, you know, gotten some exposure and, and they feel like they, you know, were LED astray, which they were. And so I think we're we're now finally approaching that point where that that career risk does flip. Yeah. And to that point as well, I mean, it's not even Brian, you're right in the sense that some clients will probably get fed up with not being able to access Bitcoin directly through their FAA, but they may even just passively or actively start moving money away from their advisor, right? Or like as they continue to earn direct deposit into their account, they're just, they're coming to on ramp and they're buying Bitcoin through on ramp or they're opening up an account with Swan or Relay or, you know, and they're just acting, accessing Bitcoin directly rather than, you know, working with their advisor and having the Bitcoin exposure tied into the rest of their portfolio. And they're more comprehensive financial planning. I still think there's a lot of value in that because people need someone. In my opinion, most people will need help in terms of thinking through like estate planning and more complex considerations. But I do think that Bitcoin plays an interesting role as it relates to the demonetization of other asset classes, allowing people to preserve and grow purchasing power without having to allocate to all these different financial products and asset classes. So that is an interesting dynamic, but I do think that people are just going to start moving if they haven't already, which a lot of people have. They'll just start to continue to allocate to Bitcoin away from their advisors, which that's not the best situation for for either one of them. I think you just hit the nail on the head. It's like, so you've got rampant inflation, you've got rampant currency debates when you've got people trying to work out. All right, I'm getting screwed, but I need to do something. So I'll flip flats or they're working a nine to five job or they have to work multiple jobs and they're like, I can't really get ahead. Even for me. You're, and I say this with my brother. So you do a full time job, you're then managing your own assets. You're so you're such your own financial advisor. You're doing like, and then you've got to deploy the capital. You've got to do like 3-4 jobs just to keep up or try and beat the inflation. And I think people are just getting sick and tired where they're working that nine to five job and then they come home like I can't even afford, I can't, I'm not even laughing, but like, you can't even afford food or the basic necessities in, in first world countries. And I think people like I was doing are just going to stop. They're just going to be like, I'm not doing this. And they're, they're just going to find another alternative. The the what protects me is people like choose gold because I just don't understand at all from the 21st century how that's even remotely possible anymore. But yeah, I think people are just going to stop playing the game. I just think people are just going to be not. Yeah, what you said is interesting because stop playing the game. We can kind of we can kind of like see how with equities and things that are movable to sell and buy Bitcoin. The one that we were talking about earlier that I wanted to come back to is the real estate in these flats, flipping and commercial real estate. That's the one that scares me because if for some reason it's the physical nature of it that it's, it's kind of the same thesis, right? Scarcity. It's just at a different, you know, magnify that Bitcoin has or accentuated, but like they miss it. They're they don't see it, but it's the one that's going to be harm the worst because of the it's the door just gets smaller and smaller. And you see this already with interest rates increasing like in hot cities like we're in, you know, Austin or these other markets where they're already down from like 2021 when the market was crazy 20 to 30%. And there's this fear like that only accelerates, especially as people like, why was I holding this? And all the like, you know, that whole notion that door is just getting smaller and smaller because we know how much it's just like bonds 2.0 and that it's a, it's a horrible asset to hold. We have, I, I keep a really close eye on the Florida real estate market and that looks like it's just, I haven't seen anything like that. It's quite insane, to be honest. But yeah, the, the, everyone describes a monetary premium to property because that was the, the apex asset to do before the Internet and it made sense. But I think there's like 8090% monetary premium to real estate and it, it's this thing will shrink really, really rapidly. And if I told you some of the government schemes that went on in the UK that have now actually stopped because they realized that all these buyers are now essentially underwater. So this really quickly. There's something called the Help the government Help to Buy scheme for like essentially my generation who wanted to get on the property ladder because apparently getting on the property ladder is the most important thing in the world. And that's what you should aspire to. You would only have to put a 5% deposit down on a flat. You couldn't, can't buy a house, you can only buy a flat. And another stat, 75% of all the properties available in London are flats. So there is just so many flats for sale. So all the idea was you get all these property developers to build all these really poorly manufactured new flats and you could charge a premium to them. These flats in London or just outside of, we'd go for £600,000 at its maximum. You only have to put a 5% deposit down. So that's about 35 grand and you have all these people that were flocking can't afford it, but they only had to put 5% down. And this is obviously when rates were relatively low. You then have rates, say at 5%, which is historically average since 1950. And because our wages are so suppressed and especially in the UK, that I think the average wage in the UK is probably about four, 40,000 lbs, maybe 50 at a stretch. Yeah, about 40,000 lbs. So the wages now don't even cover the mortgage payments. So then after five years, you have to not only pay your mortgage loan on the 95%, you then have to start paying interest to the government on top. You pay a mortgage to the bank and you then pay a mortgage to the government. And every year you can't sell that flat, it goes higher and higher and wait for the kicker. That is in line with CPI inflation. So if we think CPI inflation is going to run right, which it probably is, you're looking at mortgage rates of like 10% on flats that are worth no more than 250 grand. But they've obviously X 2 1/2 times there on people that can't afford it. So they're all at the moment now sitting in negative equity, stuck in a flat. And they've actually just scrapped the scheme of like last year. And it's this is like, this has to be like the start of some form of real estate contraction, which it is. But it's mad how this is like just playing again, or people are still very happy because it's property and they're very happy to buy a property and have that that assigned property ownership. And I think that's a complete, again, it's psychological, it's the mindset, but it's just, it's insane of what warped world we've created and trying to buy a flat, rent it out, earn the yield. And it's just, yeah, for me, it's insane. Yeah, it's in, It's in a sponge for liquidity. There's a similar story, like you have to go look through it because I don't know it's in detail, but basically how Fannie Mae was created. And it's very similar to what you're describing. It was like created to absorb this liquidity, like because that's effectively what it is. It's a sponge for dollars in taxes and. You know, we ended up on the fair balance sheet. Yeah, yeah. This is what? Yeah. And I actually had a really good start. I think globally, central banks, the top central banks around the world, no, the top 15 had about 40 trillion on their balance sheet through this whole quantitative tightening cycle. I think they got about down to about 30-4 trillion. So like they managed to get like 6-7, eight trillion cumulatively together. And you're like, all right, when's the next crisis and how much are they going to have to print? And when you were sitting there in COVID and they just printed 40% of all the money supply, you're like like, I didn't even know what to say. I think I was in shock. It's. Transitory, it's going to be. Transitory. We're good. It's going to be. Transitory it's there's no accountability, you're all liars. It's again, I don't want to play, I want to opt out. And everything they do is just it it, it's come to the realization like for me that anything like they say, I just do the opposite and it kind of just works out way better. Don't buy Bitcoin, buy Bitcoin. There is a, there is, there was an interesting anecdote as well, might have been from this week, where someone that works with us here at Onramp mentioned that there's someone who owns real estate, who understands Bitcoin, you know, allocates and has allocated the Bitcoin for quite a while now and has a material position, but continues to own real estate, right? Because there there's uncertainty with the, the Bitcoin stack. Historically, there's only so much you could own because you were either were trusting 1 institution or you had to take on full responsibility, right? And you, you bear the burden of potentially messing that up yourself or your heirs not being able to access it, or you're welcoming violence into your home, especially as Bitcoin continues to appreciate. So there's also this interesting dynamic where people want to own more Bitcoin in some cases, but they don't because they think that it could go to 0. Not because they think Bitcoin could go to 0, but that because they can mess something up where they could have the wrong counterparty exposure. And then that could result in catastrophic losses and a massive hole in their balance sheet. That's a big that's a big component that's going to be like something that individuals are going to have to grapple with of you mentioned, James, like you don't get where people still allocate to gold. I think that we missed price the latent like it's in our DNA, right? You think about for 1000 of years, you got to figure out like fight or flight and all these things and like gold is just money forever. So there's the natural version of like, how do we decide on gold being money and people thinking about their grandparents and all the things. So I think that's where that kind of is built in. But a cousin of that is what Jackson just references. We are very it's we've been told diversification our whole lives, right? Like, you know, don't get knocked out of the game. It's kind of put on with this podcast. It's called the last this podcast called the last trade is because once you get it, it's like, what else do you do? You allocate to it. You put all your chips in a basket and then you watch it very closely. But it's part of where we get excited about what we're working on is recently started thinking about the mental model, especially with normies that aren't in. It's like, let's not talk about why bitcoins not 0. Let's talk about why it's not ten trillion. And the reason why it's not ten trillion is because you've never had a you've always had a single point of failure. If you're going to allocate because you have a single point of failure with yourself. And God forbid you get hit by a bus, you lose all the money or you have a single point of failure because it's Mount Gox or Celsius or block fire. You can go down a laundry list. And that's where we get excited about this multi institution notion. And we're just seeing crazy demand coming up to this 100K is because people are waking up and be like, wait, I don't want this in my house. There was a story and it happens everywhere, but in they're telling London specifically that like they're spotters that will watch when people come out of their house and rob their Potech Philippe like off their off their, their wrist. And it's like, what do people think is going to happen when they find out that the plastic devices are sitting in people's homes like it in next to their family members? And nobody tells this story of like there needs to be risk mitigation around that. There's AI have a friend that his dad was in real estate and he was adverse for a while to Bitcoin. And what he said is his dad would say, you know, the thing about real estate is it's not really liquid, but it's always there. And his response is, you know, think about Bitcoin is it's not really there, but it's always liquid, Yeah. It's James. Maybe before we wrap up anything, anything you'd want to just flag that we didn't discuss today top of mind, you know, heading into 2025, what's exciting to you? Yeah, we've actually probably not taught the greatest story so far. That's that that Ethereum is literally dying in front of you all. I'm looking, I'm looking at the chart, It's 2 1/2 percent down. If BTC is 6% down, it's at 0.033. And the market cap spread between Bitcoin and Ethereum is about to hit 1.5 trillion. And it's incredible that this asset has been going for so long at #2 it seems like Solana, this is definitely not a crypto, but it's, it's insane how long con the Ethereum trade was essentially. And again, that's actually quite nice to say. Like if Bitcoin is tulips and it's been going for 15 years, the Ethereum's actually only been going for what, 7 years, like half Bitcoin's time. And that trade is kind of done. So again, it kind of shows that strong narrative that Bitcoins actually not a Tulip bubble, but Ethereum kind of, it has has changed its narrative one too many times. It's just interesting to see how it has traded against Bitcoin. And again, look, Ethereum probably is going to go up in nominal values in dollar terms and everything like that, like most of this stuff. But again, if we're using Bitcoin as that benchmark denominator, it's just and if you compare it cycle after cycle, it continues to generate worse returns against Bitcoin. So yeah, in any first principle thinker, like it had so many narratives they could hide behind, but now they're, they're basically all gone because you in the market, it's kind of shown, even though it's a it's more nuanced than this, but you just have meme coins that all exist anymore because like Ethereum's narrative was like, well, it does XY or Z better or faster or, you know, sounder or whatever than Bitcoin, But those all have failed to you when you when you get down to there's nothing else because like Solana doing it is a proxy for like what ETH try to do and then eventually fails and you just can go down. And so investors kind of grok that. And so now you there's no utility around anything else except for let's just trade on momentum and FOMO, which is actually fine if that's what people want to do, but call it what it is versus saying that it's competing with money, which is effective what eat This tried to do and kind of conflated crypto and Bitcoin. I think that's been one of the most sort of healthy signals in a weird way of, of this cycle is that the broader crypto space isn't even trying to hide behind these false narratives of decentralization or this or that protocol for this specific use case. It's no, it's like this is just pure gambling meme coin momentum. And I think again, this, this points back to like, this is just the process of, of Bitcoin sort of, you know, diverging from the rest of this market slowly over time in the, you know, the, the minds of the market. And, and I think this is like a a critical moment where it's like, well, Michael, to your point about Etherium specifically, I mean, they just contradicted themselves, right? Like, first they tried to be money, like Bitcoin realized that wasn't really working. And then like losing, leaving proof of work was really the nail in that coffin of, of being money. And then they said, OK, well, now we're going to be, you know, utility focus, smart contract focus. And then they just got, you know, leapfrogged by Solana, which is faster and cheaper to use. So if you're going to be trading meme coins, it's far more efficient to do it on Solana than it is Etherium. So that's where you know that, you know, Solana's found some product market fit, if you will, for gambling because it's faster and cheaper to do and get in and out of positions a lot faster and and for, you know, much cheaper. So it's just been a fascinating development, but I do think the longer term trajectory is very healthy because it's like at least we're being more honest about what this stuff is. Yeah, Capital from Ethereum is going into Bitcoin. Couple of my friends have have sold their wreath, they bought Bitcoin with it. It's it's probably one of the best signals Again, you can see it with the ETF inflows, OK, you don't get that staking yield with it, but is the appetite there? No, not really. And look, you're going to get a Dodge coin ETF, you'll get a Ripple, get a salon or ETF. That's fine. But let the free market decide what they want and what they want to do with it. That's that's perfect. And it's, it's taken however many years, we understood it. But again, it's nice now for the mainstream media and mainstream retail to see, OK, there is literally 1. I don't even like calling it a crypto asset, but it's just one form of money. And then the speculation is below that. You just have the thing that I, the thing that I think it did do, Brian, that's kind of I just hit me, which is actually more nefarious than competing with money is you would with Ethereum. You guys, this is interesting. Like so Ethereum effectively like incepting the market, we're going to tokenize and create smart contracts and all these things. And so to the point that we all just recognize, OK, it's not competing with money, maybe it doesn't store value, but what it did was it created this like like weird malaise or kind of like smoky market of like, well, they're still digital assets. So when you look at like the Franklin Templeton's and all these worlds, they're all building these like blockchain based infrastructure was securitizing all this stuff based on a premise that's still late in there about Ethereum. And so now that's basically like the next narrative of where this goes into, which was I think maybe not like always part of the end game is we're going to tokenize all this crap and we're going to like conflate and obviously, you know, Bitcoin in there. And so it's going to absorb capital in an indirect way because the thing that everyone misses with the blockchain is like, you still have a counterparty. Like that's the difference between Bitcoin and everything else is that you can take delivery for everything else. You can trade it, but you still have a counterparty that has to own the underline. And those are fundamentally two different things. And that's what everyone kind of conflates with the tokenization of like, well, who actually owns the underlying? Because it doesn't really matter who owns what's on the blockchain. I, I think the market dynamics are very favorable now to Bitcoin because you have like this infighting between all these supposedly credible crypto assets and then you just have like the meme coins and then you have Bitcoin, right? So it's like all the serious people are paying more attention to Bitcoin. It's the 7th largest asset. The ETFs have been wildly successful. The Ethereum ETFs have been absolute disaster, just dumpster fire results. And then you have meme coins, which again to to the points made here, if you want to just gamble on them, then you're free to do so, but there's at least a recognition that that's really all they are is gambling. So I think this is ultimately good market dynamics. 100% And the tokenization piece, Michael, is further solidifying what I'm saying in the sense that like they're no longer clinging to these other use cases. It's like, no, we're just going to tokenize real world assets. Like that's all we've got left to do with these, these quote UN quote decentralized blockchains is we're just going to put real estate on the blockchain for some reason. And so it's, it's a different angle, but the same in the sense that like it's an admission of there wasn't anything there, right? Yeah. But I think incepted in the market structure, is Bitcoin still a risky asset like all this stuff and nobody's thinking about Bitcoin as a material asset class yet. They're just throwing it all like the baby out with the bathwater that like this is all speculative because of that, because of that. Sorry, I think why maybe I'm flipping to Bitcoin slightly going risk off as an asset here is the dollar is above 106. It was actually even over 107, which was like a year to date high, maybe even like a two year, 2 year high. And notoriously Bitcoin and the dollar have an inverse correlation. And we've now obviously got strong dollar, strong Bitcoin, high yields, which is very unusual. To be fair, Bitcoins pretty much weathered the quickest hiking cycle in 40 years as well. So is it a 0 interest rate phenomenon asset? No. Is it only for like weak dollar? No. So it's kind of like, is it this American asset now that will kind of grow with this strong dollar? And if you have that, if you ascribe that dollar milkshake theory that the dollar just slurs all the the weaker currencies, which I believe especially with the UK and the pound, and don't even get me started on my country. But yeah, this is really, really encouraging because if the dollar was at below 100 and then the dollar runs, you'd expect Bitcoin to fall. But like, I don't see, look, the dollar probably isn't going to go much higher. Or even if it does, Bitcoin doesn't seem to care. So there's huge amounts of tailwinds for Bitcoin here. Yeah, agreed. I think might have been last week where we kind of discussed that the maturation of Bitcoin with, you know, the 1st 15 years being predominantly driven by liquidity and deficit spending and you know, strong dollar, weak dollar, what's going on in currency markets. And I think the four of us would agree that will continue to play a role because Bitcoin exists among these hundreds of trillions of dollars of other asset classes in currency markets. But I do think that we're at a point now where it starts to decouple. It already has you to think that you've published stuff on recently just related to bitcoins correlation to was it NASDAQ, S&P 500 and for a while people have kind of just said that, you know, Bitcoin is high beta tech exposure, right. But it's become increasingly clear that that argument no really no longer really holds validity. So I think we're at a point now where the market has matured quite a bit. You know, players are here and stepping in from both a political point of view, but also from the broader investment community. So I feel pretty good just in terms of Bitcoin decoupling and starting to be understood as a risk off asset in the marketplace. Well, James, unless there's anything else, I mean, we could call it here. I know it's late for you and appreciate you carving some time out around dinner time maybe. For anyone who hasn't come across your work before, where would the best place for them to get in touch with you or find your work be? Yeah, I post all my analysis with Coindesk and then I'm on Twitter. I think BTCJVS. Awesome. Well, thanks James. Really appreciate the time. It was fun to have you on and quite bullish. I'll have to do a smash by once we hang up here. Cheers guys, thanks for having me. Thanks, James. Thanks for listening to this week's episode of the show. 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