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What you're telling me is that music is about to stop and we're going to be left holding the biggest bag of odorous excrement ever assembled in the history of darkness. 1974198792972000 and whatever we want to call this, it's all just the same thing over and over. We can't help ourselves. I say when we. Sell. Hey, OK, I say when we sell. All right, welcome back to the last trade. We got an interesting one for you this week. We have Brian Cabela's, On Ramps Chief Strategy Officer joining us. And then we have Brahm Khan Stein, who recently joined as head of Growth at On Ramp. He's also the host for Bitcoin for Millennials and also joined by Cam Shromi, my deputy on the private wealth side of the business. Cam is really the one who's taking care of our clients. You're thinking through the strategy. How do we continue to stay leaders in the Bitcoin custody and financial services space? So gentlemen, it's great to have you on today. Cam Brahm, thanks for joining. How are the two of you doing? Hi, that's we're alive. So happy to finally have joined you guys, happy to collaborate on on building out this company and getting more people into Bitcoin. So I'm, I'm very excited. Awesome. Normally I go to the gym of the night, but I got up really early this morning, make sure I got it in a good session, just to make sure that all the neurons are firing so I'm ready. Excellent. Well, thank you, gentlemen. Appreciate you guys jumping on tough to coordinate three time zones. So thanks for everyone being flexible in your schedule today. Brom, How about we kick it off to you first? So you recently joined On Ramp. We've been working with you, though, as partners on the Bitcoin for Millennial show. On Ramp's been sponsoring your show for several months now, and I've had the pleasure of getting to know you over the course of the year, as has the team. But it's great to formally welcome you to the On Ramp team. If you don't mind, I know you've been on the show before. I'm sure some of the folks are familiar with your podcast as well, but can you just give a couple minutes on your background why Bitcoin is such a focal point for you in your life? You know both personally and professionally now? And what are you hoping to bring to the table for the On Ramp team? Yeah, Well, thanks again. I'm, as I said, I'm, I'm super excited. I think, you know, quick summary on my background, I kind of always say that like in the past 10-12 years, I've seen the, the development and, and growth of, of digital businesses and tech companies from a lot of different angle. So I'm really interested in creating structure in the initial kind of like chaos of any company that's starting up right? Or, or, or early companies, mainly when, when people start out, it's, it's hustling, right? You're trying to get the word out, trying to get your proposition out, trying to find people that could become interested in what you do, follow you or, or become customers, clients, users, you know, whatever you're building. And yeah, I love that initial period, but I also know that, yeah, in order to eventually get to to a scalable company, you have to create a certain type of, of, of structure, right, to keep doing what has been working. And besides that, also start experimenting with what might be working and taking along all the yeah, learnings and insights that you got from that, that hustle phase. So transitioning from kind of like a, a broad attention to more narrow focusing on, yeah, heightened execution and, and, and moving towards sustainable growth. Yeah, I've seen that process from many different angles. So from AVC investment side, I've had my own growth marketing agency, built a lot of my own ideas. A lot of them failed, some worked out and and got acquired. And I've also worked for I think a total of like three years in in traditional finance in kind of like I'll I'll do air quotes innovation in in in banking, in in at at one really big bank and one really big insurance company. And the reason why I wanted to do that was yeah, just to see for one, just to experience, you know, what is tratify like? And because everyone has an idea about that, I think. But I think it's interesting to to to have my own experience. But yeah, to see like, OK, my example was always like, yeah, if there's like two or three smart guys in an attic building the the best or the coolest, you know, digital product or, or ever, then yeah, who who kind of cares about that, right? Like the distribution for them is really difficult. Whereas my idea with well, the bank that I eventually worked that they have 3 million customers. I was like, oh, well, the distribution is, you know, infinite in in a sense, like you can create all these segments of the customers that you have based on your insights. But then the question is, yeah, how do you stay kind of like lean, mean or nimble and, and build and iterate in small steps within a big company that's basically all geared towards yeah, just executing the the business model. So I kind of saw like these two, yeah, different approaches to to building new, new business ideas. And I wanted to experience it for myself. And I think I had a interesting experience there. I mean, in that time I was already into bitcoins, how I always walked in with my backpack with my little Bitcoin pin feeling like a like a infiltrator in a sense. But yeah, that that experience has really shaped. Yeah, also I think partially my understanding of the reason of existence of, of Bitcoin, why it's kind of like the next big innovation or, or big technological advancement that we're going through together, like the the perfection of money in a sense. And one of my biggest insights was when, when I when I worked at this bank, I was 30, I had a mortgage, I was already into Bitcoin. And then someone explained, a colleague explained fractional reserve banking to me. And I remember that after an hour talking, that really blew my mind. And I walked away from that meeting realizing that, yeah, I had no idea about the system that I was participating in. And it, yeah, really motivated me to go deeper down this, you know, what? What is the reptile called? What is money, finance, economics, value, property, all these things that that is the Bitcoin rabbit hole, right. And yeah, that that those experiences really drove me more towards, I'd say like the finance and economics side of, of Bitcoin and, and, and also like the reason of existence of Bitcoin. And I feel that it's, it's a very profound invention on one side, right. So Bitcoin itself, I think is a, is an invent. You can call that an an invention. It's a combination of technologies that have been researched and worked upon for the past 40-50 years, maybe even longer, right? If you go back all the way to cryptography, for example. But what it gives us is truly a discovery, right? The, the absolute digital scarcity, the, the verifiable digital scarcity of the 21 million units of, of, of Bitcoin. It's a true discovery. Like the, the wheel, you know, like you, you do not reinvent the wheel. I, I had an interesting conversation last week where, where someone said, well, but NASA is making a wheel, you know, for the Mars Rover or like when, when it drives on the moon where there's like no air in it, it's like a mesh thing, but it's still a wheel, right? Like the shape is still a, it's still a wheel. It's a different iteration of the wheel, but it's it's still a wheel. And I kind of feel, feel like about Bitcoin like that, that it's yeah, it's the absolute digital scarcity. You can only find that once, that shape, that thing, that concept, you can only discover that once. And I think that next to helping people understand why Bitcoin has a reason to exist, you know, we can talk about debasement and of of the money supply and eventually the inflation of of prices, how things get out of reach for people. And especially, you know, my focus on millennials is well, and I think you all treat and attest to that. You know, the whole story that's been again, air quotes like sold to us, like how do you build your life and your family and your career and all these things are just, you know, what's been told to us by our parents is now just totally different than the main issue is that money is broken. And I think, yeah, for me, these things coming together made me even more interested in, in Bitcoin and eventually made me start to podcast and trying to figure out how I can make the switch from, yeah, the field world into the Bitcoin world. And I'm happy to be here now. So I think, I think that's a quick rundown of yeah, kind of my, my background and, and current thoughts, like what are the big teams that I'm looking for? I think, yeah, reason of existence of Bitcoin. I think we need to help people understand that before we can show them what we think is is the solution to to the mess of the field money system. Yeah. Well, thanks for that Brahm. And certainly it's astute observation by you to focus on the millennial cohort. I, I think in part it's because you are a millennial yourself and that's the the frame that you view the world in. But it's also a recognition that Bitcoin is a technology, it's a savings technology. It's a technology that helps you to not get poorer over time from monetary debasement. And so there's a recognition then that this is a technology that is almost an, it is an imperative really for millennials to adopt so that they can preserve and grow their wealth over time. Because what has worked for our parents or our grandparents, there's no longer a inappropriate or the best or optimal way to preserve and grow wealth over time. So as you mentioned, Bitcoin is this kind of once in a species discovery. It's a new technology. And anyone who does embrace it can have the benefits of that technology and how it improves their life first and foremost financially. But then it Brahm, as you discussed quite a bit on your podcast, there are a lot of different ways that Bitcoin can kind of refocus one's mind or provide new perspectives. And so Brahm, it's great to have you on the team. I think just the proof of work is there as it relates to how incredibly quickly you've grown your podcast. I'm not sure exactly when you started it, if it was like maybe 18 months ago or so ballpark in that area. But you've seen tremendous growth there. And I think it does speak to the unique lens that you bring to the Bitcoin space, all the different experiences you've described, both, you know, in traditional finance and larger institutions, but then also being more entrepreneurial minded, helping startups. So it's great to have you on and excited for this conversation today. Cam, if you don't mind, I would love to just have you introduce yourself, get the audience that isn't familiar with you or isn't working with you already on the private wealth side to get a better understanding of your background and what you're now doing here at Onramp as well. Yeah, thanks, Jackson. So I'm our head of private wealth and I've been working, it's kind of crazy to reflect on it now. I've been working in Bitcoin full time for four years now and I still have most of my sanity. And you know, it's still very upbeat on a day-to-day basis, even through the bear market. But it's been, I think it's a big testament to Bitcoin because if I'm kind of sharing a little bit something personally is that typically I've found in my career, I hit a certain level of mastery and whatever, you know, job I had previously. And then I kind of get bored and then move on to the next thing. I think that's actually a fairly common trope for Bitcoiners where we're looking for something that is intellectually stimulating. So been fortunate to be able to work in Bitcoin for four years now and meet and work with so many incredible folks, this group included. And I think really when I reflect in what keeps me so interested is the clients I get to work with on a daily basis because there are certain commonalities and I'll share that talk about those too. But everybody's different and then I get a tremendous amount of fulfillment just getting to work with individuals and families and business owners and helping them to to secure their Bitcoin in the best way. So I'm further down the funnel from what Bram is referring to. He's he's certainly right on that. Most of the cohort in Bitcoin at this point is millennials. And he's more helping them to understand philosophically why Bitcoin is important. And then I get to work with folks and help them understand what are the best ways to secure this asset. So folks have developed a conviction on Bitcoin. Then they have to reach that second part, which is OK, how do I custody this asset? And it's very nuanced. And I think the, the really the approach I try to take is OK, if you have a hammer, everything is a nail. And that can be, you know, kind of a natural way for people to approach a situation oftentimes. But more so, it's about providing a framework for people of how to think about custody. What are we trying to solve for? What are your pain points? And then we know where do the tools out there that can help you If we're reflecting just generally as a Bitcoin community, I think it's helpful to understand or remember that a tool is only as good as a person's ability to wield that tool. So we can say like this tool is the best, but if it's if it's requires a great degree of technical competence, it's not fully form fit for that individual. You know, I grew up hunting so you can you know, there's a lot of analogies you can imagine there where if I say, hey, do you want to like Brian, do you want to come duck hunting with me? And you're like, I've never been duck hunting before. I'm like, well, OK, well, do you want a 20 gauge? Do you want to use a 12 gauge semi automatic, a pump action? Like I don't, I don't know, I'm not really sure. Like like, OK, so we're going to go on the blind and it's dark and the birds are buzzing by it 65 miles an hour. But don't shoot me and don't shoot, you know, John next to us and you'll do great. It's really easy. So I think that a lot of times in Bitcoin in our excitement to help people hold the asset in the best way and we've already done all the work we can, sometimes there's overstep or overshoot the technical solution for what we're recommending despite kind of the best intentions behind that. So it's both, you know, meeting people where they're at. I'm not dogmatic. We I know a lot of us here personally and then a lot of my clients both use self custody and use multi institution custody. So that's what really what I'm kind of driving at. I think I'm not certainly not opposed to self custody. I use it myself and have for many years and so do us on on the team. And that's what I really try to impart with a lot of folks. It doesn't have to be an all or nothing proposition when I'm talking with folks who are considering OK, do I, I've been using self custody for years. Do it. Can I really extend trust to three institutions who are holding keys on my behalf? Am I willing to pay for that service? Those are big questions. But then I think that with that underlying, you know, kind of premise that they're realizing that the the risk always live somewhere. If if the risk is that they're working to mentally extend is to engage with multiple counterparties. Well, if the risk isn't there today, where is a lie? It lies with that individual and people feel that over time, the the really the biggest challenges that I help clients work through are one would be inheritance. Like we're all going to die. Like hopefully we all live long and healthy lives and have a peaceful ending and everything works out well. But life happens in the interim. And that's a huge challenge in self custody. It certainly can be done. But I can tell you too, from the thousands of conversations I've had that unfortunately, most people haven't done that work. Like that's the last step that people have left off their To Do List is like, oh man, like I'm young, I'm healthy, I'm a millennial. I'm I'm listening to Brahms podcast. I'm in my 30s. I did, I listen to the Rogan podcast. I take all these supplements. I'm super healthy. You know, everyone's has a positive, optimistic view of their life. Most people. But that's, that was, that's the scary part that I've seen over time is people need to develop that inheritance plan because of the, the truly generational wealth opportunity that Bitcoin affords helping people with that, you know, that really that discomfort around making a mistake themselves. What I've been finding, especially more recently is people haven't used their keys for a couple years. Like if they're using it, they've been in self custody either using one key or multiple. Maybe the last bull run was the last time they really checked their keys, 2021-2022, You know, you know, it's like when the asset drops 85%, a lot of your brain wants to kind of shut and power that off and you want to focus on some other things because kind of painful to go back to look at this asset class that's down so much, even if you know it will recover and where it's going the long term. So it's just amazing and it's disheartening to see how many errors come up when people are trying to use their keys again. And like, so they go to sign for a, a transaction and the keys just don't work. And if I'm working with them, they're, they're soliciting my help, you know, 303045 minutes. We'll work through it and I will help them to figure it out. But through that process, you realize too, all of the assumed knowledge that I have built up in that I'm assuming that they have or or that the user of self custody. Because you're coordinating hardware, the hardware wallets, you're coordinating the firmware, you're coordinating the software that's being used to manage the wallet. You're coordinating your computer, you're coordinating the browser on your computer. Sometimes the accessories like the trouser cable is notorious for just being poor quality, like right out-of-the-box, a certain percentage of those just don't work. So if it's someone who's newer and jumping in, there's a lot that they're going to need to know. Like what steps would you even take to resolve this issue? And, and that it's not necessarily critical or, or one that they can't solve for. But if you if you don't even know where to start and also you're interacting with Bitcoin and the Bitcoin tools that you were told were kind of the end all be all, you're really in a rock and a hard place at that point. Because you know, Coinbase or a single institution is not a good place to keep it. But now you're feeling incredibly uncomfortable because you're trying to deal with new tooling. So I could talk about this all day. This is what I do talk about all day. But it's really helping people to work through understand where they're at, providing them a framework and then helping to make recommendations based on what they're trying to solve for. At On Ramp, we believe that Bitcoin is the most important asset of the 21st century. The hard part is securing it right. There are shortcomings with keeping your coins on an exchange, but also with setting up your own self custody arrangement. On Ramp solves for these concerns. Our multi institution custody solution maximizes security and minimizes counterparty risk, ensuring that your Bitcoin remains securely in your possession and provides built in inheritance planning to ensure your family is protected as well. On Ramp provides Peace of Mind for your Bitcoin journey. Whether for your whole stack or for part of it as a compliment to your existing self custody set up. For more information, check us out at on rampbitcoin.com. It's a great point, Cam, I, I really appreciate you sharing your background because I've witnessed it first hand and, and you have to be one of the best in the business as it relates to helping people work through those discomforts. You know, we've been on calls together before where as you, as you have described, people have all sorts of firmware issues. The keys aren't working, they haven't touched them in a while. And these are, and this happens to, you know, very savvy people. And it also happens to your point, people who maybe only have used their keys a handful of times, right? And so I have to say that just you're so your technical acumen and also the way that you manage your client relationships just makes you so well suited to take care of those people. And I've just been so impressed with, you know, the work that you've done since we've been working together now for quite a while here at On Ramp. And I want to take a step back to like the hidden, hidden risks of custody because right now we are at about $98,000 per Bitcoin. So we, we're over six figures. We had our celebration and, and now we're back to five figure Bitcoin. And it feels a little sad, but even though we're not at six figure Bitcoin, I think it's worth kind of framing a discussion around that because we're still up over the week, about $3000 at the time we're recording. We reached an all time high of nearly $104,000. And so this is the end of 2024, got a couple weeks left in the year. The four of us plus most folks I think listening to this podcast are quite excited about what could happen in 2025 with the price of Bitcoin adoption. Will we see sovereigns step into the ring? Will we see more public companies adopt Bitcoin on the balance sheet? So I'll open up now this discussion to the group. Any thoughts here? Just in the past week we saw the price action and you know, what are some thoughts that you guys have with six figure Bitcoin going into next year? What are some of the catalysts you're paying attention to? Any any news that you saw maybe in the past week or so that was caught your eye or got you excited? Yeah, bunch, bunch of thoughts. Thanks, Jackson. Before that, though, just want to reiterate, super excited to have Bram finally aboard the the on ramp team. Been super impressed with him over the past 12 to 18 months that I've, you know, first followed him on Twitter, listened to his pod and then gotten to know him over the past several months. So we're we're lucky to have him on board and you know, he brings just a, a wealth of knowledge and really, you know, is able to distill a lot of, you know, Bitcoin centric topics to a wide audience of, you know, goes beyond just millennials as as we've discovered he has, he has an audience across various age cohorts. So super excited to have Bram on board and always nice to have Cam on the pod. We should mention Cam is, is sitting in for Michael Tanguma, our CEO and and Co founder, who's actually out in Abu Dhabi right now for the Bitcoin MENA conference. And so maybe we could start there in, just in terms of, you know, lots of bullish conversations happening in that region right now. And I've seen some various clips from from yesterday was the first day of the conference. I think the second day is today. And on ramp Mina is, is hosting a side event out there today. But lots of interesting takeaways. I think just, you know, I guess it was roughly a week ago that, that we surpassed 100 and, and are now just sort of oscillating around that 6 figure number. It's, it's interesting to see sort of just reactions to the volatility that in my mind, like we should all be comfortable with this at this point. But like you know, the, the drop from I guess when we were in the low hundreds, I think it was the fastest maybe like 5 minute candle in or the largest 5 minute candle in in bitcoins history, either up or down. And I think it was down like $6200 in 5 minutes. And, you know, I, I guess if I'm being honest, like it for a newcomer, that could be pretty scary if you're not familiar with this, this asset and this type of volatility. But for people that have been in it a while, like it, it, it does still surprise me that people are, you know, buying into various pieces of FUD. We've got a whole new slew of, of quantum FUD that, that came around the past couple days. Like we're just, we're just sort of recycling the, you know, the quantum FUD has been around a decade. Obviously there's new developments in terms of quantum computing that are taking place. But for my cursory understanding of, of quantum computing, I think we're still a ways away from that being a real theoretical concern for, for cracking any, any of bitcoins encryption. But it's just you, you see these things time and again. And then that leads to, you know, the volatility sort of rearing its head again. And, you know, I think for, for folks like us, it's easy to sort of see through that. But I do worry about, you know, people that are new to this space, particularly on the institutional side, who are seeing this, this type of volatility in the asset that, you know, they're probably not familiar with and other assets. And that's when it all comes back to the education and understanding like you need to have a long term view on this thing. And I think unfortunately there's, I mean, fortunately, fortunately, unfortunately, there's still a ton of short term folks in the Bitcoin space, right? Like because of the volatility, you have people who want to trade this thing. Like that is a sort of an inherent truth of the the market structure today in that because it's very volatile, you're going to have a lot of short term oriented traders who are in the market. And what that ends up doing is is, you know, at times exacerbating that volatility. So if you have a longer term view, it's yeah, you can kind of just chill, sit back and and stack more sats when when the market gives you the opportunity. But yeah, it's been a fascinating couple weeks breaching that psychological barrier and now sort of oscillating around it and and trying to, I guess sort of handicap, you know, you know, how how much consolidation is needed before next leg higher? Hard to say. There's been some good on chain analysis from the likes of Checkmate on Twitter, who's fantastic on the on chain side, as well as James Von Stratton, who we had on a couple weeks ago on the show. But putting out some good data and metrics around, you know, things are, are heating up slightly in terms of on chain metrics, but nothing, nothing too overheated that would suggest, you know, this is this is a top or anything, but just that this is a natural sort of point of consolidate or consolidation and a little bit of sideways movement. As some, you know, much longer term holders do take some profits. And this happens every cycle and it and should be expected and, and honestly, it's healthy for the network as as long term holders distribute those coins to newer holders. So those are my my, my brief thoughts, but I'll open it up to the group from there. Yeah. Appreciate, appreciate that, Brian. So, yeah, I think one thing that's always worth mentioning is that there are still a lot of people to Brian's point who take a very short term view on Bitcoin and that tends to lead to volatility. So I think that price candle that you mentioned, Brian, was that that there were just a ton of liquidated levered longs. So we got through the 100K wall and people I guess thought that Bitcoin is going to continue to RIP to the upside. There was some selling pressure and then a ton of longs got liquidated and it resulted in Bitcoins price dropping by $6000 in less than 10 minutes. So that's not a reflection on Bitcoin as an asset class or store value. It's just a reflection of people's emotions and how people are looking to trade an asset. And I think the same is true. It's always worth going back to 2022 where it was just a disaster of a year for the industry. You had all sorts of, you had all sorts of really poor risk management and even outright, you know, fraudulent or illegal activity in the market. And so that is not a reflection of what individual investors like the four of us or our listeners or institutional investors. That's not a reflection of how most people are thinking about Bitcoin as an investable opportunity. It's actually the exact opposite, right? Because Cam mentioned that inheritance is the, if not number one, number two problem that most people are worried about and thinking about. And that's because they view Bitcoin is not something that they're going to take a 50X levered position on and trade for the next 5 days. They're viewing it as an investment for their family for the next next 50 years, right? Or maybe longer, right? People to have a very multi generational investment thesis around Bitcoin. And so that's fundamentally how people should be thinking about it because if you add a little bit of Bitcoin to your portfolio, you should be at least willing to hold the investment for more than four years because of the cycles and everything that we've, you know, continue to discuss and the industry's been talking about. So I think it's always worth pointing that out that there's that the reflection or short term volatility is not a reflection of bitcoins merits as an investable asset or its monetary properties. Yeah, I mean, this show is called the Last Trade, right? I, I, I think that's how we, how we all view it, that it's the last trade because, yeah, I think we should primarily look at Bitcoin as a wealth preservation tool, right? It's a say, it's a savings technology. But because it's the most superior savings technology, it will also grow your wealth because more and more people will move into this asset to use it as their primary savings technology, right? And it it will devalue. I think that's the bigger theory, right? Or, or the conceptually, the idea it will devalue or at least bring other assets to a more fair valuation in terms of, of price than the, the, the inflated prices that, that you see now. And so I think talking about that connecting back to what I mentioned in my intro about the reason of existence, right? Like, why, why do you need a savings tool, right? Why is this the best savings technology? Well, it's because the, you know, using money as savings, as we were all taught again, you know, that just doesn't work anymore. And so I think that is the bigger idea that we should tell people about, right? It's the, it's the, it's superior savings technology. And yeah, if you're still trading Bitcoin, if you're betting with it, right, gambling with it up or down doesn't really matter, then yeah, it shows that you still don't view it like that. And of course there's different risks with playing with Bitcoin like that than just basically buying and holding and using it as that savings technology. So I think that's what we are seeing in the market with with the price. And and yeah, of course there are some people that pay attention to it. I mean, it's also the only 24/7 365 market in in the world. So I mean, if you like playing around trading it, then yeah, it's the most perfect asset to to do that with. So I think we'll keep seeing that. But in terms of, you know, talking about price fluctuations and stuff like that, I think Jackson, what you said, just looking at it on a longer time frame, you know, the trend is up because, you know, I think, I think we talk about this a lot, but like Bitcoin is an individual kind of like mind virus. You have to study and understand this reason of existence about money and the debasement, etcetera. And then eventually why this is a better savings technology. So over time, more people store their economic energy in this asset and the price goes up. But I'd rather say that, you know, the, the, it's not the price, it's more like an exchange rate, right? Like so a few years ago you needed $4000 units to buy one Bitcoin unit, and now you need $100,000 units to buy one Bitcoin unit and you need one unit to get $100,000 units. And then just ask yourself the question like which, which one is valued more, you know, and once you understand that trend and what you can use Bitcoin for, that is I think the main, the main use case that that we should keep talking about. I mean, we could talk about the day-to-day, but that's of course short term. And and I think when we see those discussions, we can also help people to get on to kind of like that longer time frame track and show them, yeah, how to broaden the the scope of time. Absolutely. And so who is not trading Bitcoin? Who is viewing it as a long term savings technology? Well, there was this news that came out earlier this week where the National Center for Public Policy Research submitted a shareholder proposal to Amazon.com for its consideration at the 2025 annual shareholder meeting and the request that was the board assess adding Bitcoin to the company's treasury. So we should definitely talk about this. I thought I read through it right before we hit the record button this morning and a couple things caught my eye. One, there was an acknowledgement that CPI is a remarkably poor measure of inflation. So they, they mentioned in this, in this assessment that over the last four years, according to CPI, it was about 5%, peaking at 9.1% in June 2022. But there is an acknowledgement that the true inflation rate is significantly higher than that, with some studies estimating it to be nearly double the CPI time. So this is an acknowledgement that if you have, if you're a company and you're leaving cash or short term securities as part of your treasury strategy, what we understand that that you know that there's, you know, there's good reason for that in terms of meeting any working capital requirements and having the ability to get liquidity. But the downside of that of course is that you're losing your purchasing power over time. Your purchasing power is being rapidly eroded by the expansion of the money supply and by deficit spending. And So what this assessment suggested was that Amazon consider adding five or allocating 5% of its balance sheet to Bitcoin or more than that. So there's an acknowledgement now by shareholders. And of course there's mentions of MicroStrategy and other companies executing a or adding Bitcoin to their treasury strategy and how that has been very creative to shareholders. So now we're seeing larger companies start to have to consider this shareholders putting this in front of them. And so I think this is going to if it's not priced in already, it's going to be priced in, in the coming months where we're going to start to see some of the largest companies in the world acknowledge that they need to do something about their massive stockpile of cash and continue to outperform other their peers, right. And so MicroStrategy has been the best performing stock in the last four years. And why is that? Well, it's because that they're doing something called a creative dilution. They're issuing more debt and equity to the market, and they're buying the most digitally scarce form of capital, which is Bitcoin. And so this is a really exciting development. I think we will see more of this. Brian, I lifted this chart from the newsletter that you put out last week, and it just shows that Bitcoin was and still is the 7th largest asset in the world. And so it has a couple of numbers here, but essentially Bitcoin from 109 K to $186,000 per Bitcoin will surpass Google, Amazon, Microsoft, NVIDIA, and Apple. So maybe this kind of ties into that shareholder proposal, right? And the idea that companies will need to start considering Bitcoin on the balance sheet. What do you guys think about that? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I love this. Very simple top assets by market cap ranking. I think you know, it's, it's similar to the, the meme of the Grim Reaper knocking on next door like the of the price targets 60K70K80K. Like this is the same idea of like Google's the next door, Amazon's the next door, Microsoft's the next door. And the, you know, with regard to the shareholder proposal for Amazon, you know, this is just, this is just corporate game theory playing out in real time. This is all what we, you know, sort of expected to occur. The dominoes are falling. And in this particular case, it's Amazon and, you know, Microsoft, who I believe is, is voting on the proposal maybe today to add Bitcoin to their, their balance sheet. But so those two companies, 2, two of which which are still above Bitcoin in terms of market cap, are considering adding Bitcoin to their, to their balance sheet. So that's a signal that they might be looking at the same chart and saying, you know, perhaps the only way we don't get caught by Bitcoin here is by embracing Bitcoin and, and adding it to our balance sheet. So I think it's, it's fascinating, but expected to some extent. And, you know, I think that this this this ranking, this list has a mimetic quality to it in the sense that, you know, I think this is going to be top of mind as this bull run plays out as it passes each of these companies. And then once it passes Apple, you know, above 186 per coin, which I think is relatively cheap achievable. I think that's on the low end of people's sort of base case for what Bitcoin could do this cycle. Then it's number two behind gold. And I think that that will have a profound effect on how the average person views Bitcoin. They've almost certainly heard that Bitcoin is digital gold, but they probably didn't believe it until it was actually, like, almost as large as gold. And then I think it will click in some people's minds like, oh, this is actually competing against gold. And then if, you know, if they actually want to put in some work and study the asset, they'll understand why it's actually superior to gold in so many ways. And, you know, it's full potential, its full potential market cap could be many, many multiples larger than gold over time. But yeah, I think this is a this is a fascinating one. It's exciting to see the the the news around Amazon. Shout out to our boy Tim Kotzman for for breaking that yesterday. But yeah, pretty exciting. Yeah, I have two things to add to that. I love what you said, Brian, about, you know, it's, it's kind of also about the narrative or understanding, you know, combining narrative with hard data, you know, and, and again, how we grew up. If, if you want to store value, right, like what are the things that are, are valuable? We learned gold and silver, you know, we all learned, we all learned it, but now that narrative has changed. You just showed the chart, right? Like if you say gold and silver, that's wrong. You should say gold, Bitcoin and then silver. You know so already. That that narrative changing, I find very interesting, right because and and again especially also for like our generation or maybe a little bit older when you you have children, this is what we will tell our children right. So this is already going to happen. This narrative is already changing towards the future and I think when you start thinking about Bitcoin at yeah, kind of like a higher level like that, you know, if you use it as a savings technology to create less uncertainty towards your future and eventually save your your family's economic energy in that. And of course, you know you can use on ramp to make sure that the the children of your children will eventually get get that Bitcoin right. If you start looking at that from, from a time frame like that, you, you just see that the, the concept of Bitcoin will keep permeating in, in just amongst people, but also that the narrative is going to change and that eventually, yeah, what do you need if you want to preserve wealth? Well, it's going to be gold, Bitcoin and silver. And maybe in 10 years it's going to be Bitcoin, gold and then and then silver, right. And if we think about like that time frame, I just looked up how many, how much cash Amazon has. And it's interesting they mentioned CPI, right? So I, I, I, I, I just found a little calculator to do some quick, quick maths. But if they have $88 billion cash on cash on hand and you work with a 7% inflation rate, which I think is very, very conservative, right? In, in real terms, after 10 years, that 88 billion is 42 billion, 42.5 billion. So you lose more than half of your purchasing power from from that cash over 10 years. And then if we take 5%, right, you said Jackson, I think that's the that's the proposal. So we take 4.4 billion. Well, let's make it, let's make it 4. Let's round it down, right? And then take 29% Kager that's the thesis of Michael Sater, right? Sidestep. I think that's very important for people to understand that that is what he's basing all of his actions on, right? His thesis is 29% CAGR and in over the next 21 years, let's say we take that over the next 10 years, then 4 billion will turn into 51 billion, OK? So instead of losing 44 billion, you can earn 47 billion if you adopt Bitcoin with 5% of the cash that you have on hand. And I mean, I don't know if anyone has a rebuttal to that, but I think that's pretty clear. It's pretty clear the only game is, is to play. It's, it's Jackson. I'm glad you called out the CPI note in that proposal because it's nice to see some, some normalization of, of questioning government data, if you will, and, and having a real conversation around, you know, this isn't the true rate of monetary debasement. It's just not people feel that when they go to the grocery store, they feel when they're paying for college or healthcare expenses. And so it's this sort of ultimate form of gaslighting that's existed for some time now. So it's nice to see some normalization of of just at least having a conversation around what's the true rate of the basement here. And yeah, that's some great, some great back of the envelope math there, Brom. I think every single corporate boardroom I think is is doing that exact math on on an envelope or on a napkin in in the boardroom or they and if they're not, then they should be because that this is the reality of what's occurring and, and in the process of playing out. And you know, if you have the, if you have the Amazons and the Microsofts of the world, at least starting to have the conversation that that allows every company to have the conversation. Because if, if you know, if it was just sailor, if it was just some small companies that were doing this, you could still have, you know, the Fiat air cover effectively to say, oh, we don't need to worry about it. It's just a small company. It's just, you know, small countries like El Salvador that are doing this with the Amazons of the world at least discussing it. That really opens sort of the Overton window, shifts it materially and allows these conversations to permeate across market cap size. And the other component of that too is like the United States government also contemplating it, right? Like that is even larger sort of air cover to have these conversations question the debasement rate, question whether Bitcoin makes sense for your treasury. And so there's all these really powerful sort of shifts in the narrative that are occurring sort of all at the same time. And, and, and in my view, like none of this is is really priced in. Like, I think the only sort of element that's priced in is a, you know, perhaps priced in to some extent is like a friendlier administration now that Trump won the government buying Bitcoin is not priced in. Like that is very much still not does not show up in the price today at the 100K. Because if and when that does occur, which you know, depending on who you ask and who you listen to, it seems like it's maybe not a foregone conclusion, but it seems like it's it's very likely. And if it doesn't happen at the federal level, it's probably even more likely to occur at the state level, which would still be pretty meaningful and is also not priced in. But that will then kick off a real sort of global arms race to accumulate Bitcoin, accumulate hash rate. And we already sort of suspect this to be happening sort of X USI think I mentioned the the on ramp MENA or the sorry, the Bitcoin MENA conference going on right now. I think I saw somebody like a government official or a Prince of Serbia basically saying like, yeah, there's there's multiple countries over here that have been accumulating Bitcoin. They're just doing it behind closed doors. They're obviously not being super public about it, which again, from a from a game theory perspective makes total sense. Why would you tell someone out in the open that you're accumulating the finite asset that is Bitcoin you? It would behoove you to establish a position, a material position before publicly stating that to the market. So I think it's reasonable to assume that various countries around the world have not only done the math that you elucidated Bram, but they've also just looked around and seen the various discussions occurring at both the government and corporate level and said, you know, we've we've got to do something here. Does your Bitcoin custody setup keep you up at night? Maybe you still have coins sitting on an exchange worried about hackers. Or maybe you've set up your own self custody, but don't feel safe with your Bitcoin savings stashed on a little plastic device in your desk drawer. Gain Peace of Mind with Onramp and our Multi Institution custody solution. Here's how it works. Onramp creates a dedicated multi sig vault just for you. 3 separate institutions each hold a key, Onramp bit go and coin cover, but none can move funds unilaterally. 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The divergent between retail adoption and then adoption by sovereigns and the largest corporations in the world is also fascinating. You think about two years ago it was mostly a retail driven phenomenon still FTX and all these other big brands that dominated kind of the the zeitgeist and then collapsed. I think that has created a lot of overhang for that is keeping retail investors out right now because it is so quiet like brown like is it even falling this longer? I I'd always expected 100K Bitcoin to be this kind of shot heard around the world for every individual to wake up and say wow, how is this weird Internet thing gone from $0.00 to $100,000. But that's just not the case. Like my conversations day-to-day are still with the individuals that have been around Bitcoin for years and are evaluating cussy options and it's very few new entrants to the market. But at the same time, for exactly the reasons you're saying, Brian, mostly due to game theory that at the highest levels, this is already like we just leapfrogged to the very like top bosses of this video game. And and certainly have folks like within Apple that like Tim Cook has said, he's on it for years. So you of course have really smart individuals that understand Bitcoin at the executive level within these organizations. But also I don't think they even need to understand it that well. They just need to understand that like, OK, if we at Microsoft, you know, don't do this, then Facebook is going to do this. Or if we, and like Trump has said explicitly, if we and the US don't lead in Bitcoin, then China will. So that's really all you need to know to start taking it seriously, which creates a conversation, which is then it's kind of own self fulfilling prophecy. So Bram, is that what you're seeing? Is the kind of individual investor still relatively quiet from your network or in? Your Yeah, well, I mean, people are talking about it, but I think, I think two things. Yeah, I agree. When, when in 2013, I discovered Bitcoin, I mean, we fantasized about $10,000 and like $100,000 felt like that's gonna melt the Internet, right? Like that the internet's gonna explode when we get to 100 Ki honestly feel the, the, the silence is, is, is deafening. You know, like, I mean, we do see it, but I think we need to, I mean, people are talking about it, right? And, and, and people with opinions come out of the woodworks to, to talk about it again. But I think we have to realize that we are in just in a very, very small bubble. I do feel we are still extremely early. I think that got reiterated from me when I just realised how much money there is in the world, right. And, and, and I mean, Jesse Myers has made a great overview of the full potential value of Bitcoin where, you know, it's like this image with, with the, with the, with the blocks. We are, we are, we are still so early. I mean, even at 100K, we are, we are so early. And I feel it's, it's it's probably gonna need to be a way higher before people will really start paying attention. Maybe it helps when we pass this like 168 ish K where it's basically just below or, you know, in that second place below below gold. Maybe that helps to change the narrative on the other side. I do think that a lot of people also really got burned in the last cycle. I mean, and that, so the whole FTX debacle, you know, mixing crypto with Bitcoin, I mean, you still see it even in quality news outlets. You know, when they talk about Bitcoin, they say crypto. I think a lot of people got burned by by that, just that experience of themselves or other people. But also, and, and maybe that's harsh, but sometimes people reply with this to me on, on Twitter and they say like, yeah, regular people are broke, you know, like they don't, they don't have a lot of money. I mean, in America, the average person doesn't have $500.00 for, for an emergency fund, you know, so why would you invest that in Bitcoin? I mean, that makes a lot of sense. But I think that also reiterates the entire reason of existence again, for for Bitcoin, you know, like we are participating in a financial system that is not designed to work for us as the individual. So I think that strengthens that narrative. But it's also, yeah, a bit of a harsh realization to just realize that, yeah, many people are just surviving in a sense, you know, it's it's the day-to-day, month to month survival. So they don't really have time and space to to, to, yeah, study to, to, to get to Bitcoin. So yeah, I. Think that's, I think that's part of it. Just to just to add on to that a little bit, I think there's there's a few components at play as as to why maybe we haven't seen retail come back as as strongly as as one might, might have expected at, you know, 100 Ki think part of it is unit bias still definitely exists. Like, I don't know if you guys saw Joe Kernan either yesterday or the day before who I think is like fairly knowledgeable about Bitcoin, or at least has seemed like he is over the past couple of years. But he was basically like saying like that's so expensive, like 100K, that's so expensive for one Bitcoin. And he was sort of insinuating that he didn't realize you could buy fractional pieces of a Bitcoin. I don't know if that's actually what he was trying to say. But if someone was listening to that, they may have perceived that, you know it as such that, oh, you know, you got to buy a full Bitcoin. So I think like as silly as it seems like the Bitcoin community and our space in general would like, we need just some like general Psas about Bitcoin. Like there's only 21 million. They're not making any more of it. The 200 and week, the 200 week moving average have has never gone down. You know, the 200 week moving average on a on a chart is not volatile at all. It's just up and to the right and you can buy, you know, you don't have to buy a full Bitcoin. Like if, if more people just knew these like simple truths about Bitcoin, I think you'd see much more retail, retail participation. The average person, you know, saving whatever they could, even if it's $510 a week or a month saving in Bitcoin because I think there's just these critical misunderstandings still at this stage. And so that's, that's certainly part of it. The other component in my mind is like, you know, to your point brand, like there's a lot of people who just don't have the excess capital to start, you know, establishing a meaningful Bitcoin position. So there is this tendency to sort of migrate into the world of like financial nihilism, as I would call it, and say like, oh, you know, I need to just go gamble on meme coins effectively if I ever want to get ahead. And so they, they, they perceive Bitcoin, you know, obviously as, as something that's important, but that, you know, if they ever want a meaningful amount of Bitcoin, they've got to go gamble to get enough money to buy a Bitcoin basically. So I think there's also a component of that going on where you're totally right that, you know, people don't have a lot of excess capital to put into the asset and the, the capital that they can scrounge up. They're almost more inclined to gamble it on a meme coin because again, they're, they're still just at the fringe of understanding these things. So they're completing the assets. They're saying, oh, this is all crypto. Like I'm just going to gamble on this one because it's much smaller and I'll probably make a lot of money, Maybe I can buy a full Bitcoin. So I think it's the confluence of those things that maybe we haven't seen as much retail participation just yet this cycle. I also think the retail participation maybe just looks different, right? Because this is something we've talked about in recent months, Jackson with like 13 F filings in the ETFs, like a lot of the early buyers of the ETS were what you would call quote UN quote retail buyers, not necessarily institutional or sovereign or corporate. So maybe the the retail buyer just looks a little bit different than it did in prior cycles. You know, it's folks buying the ETF through their brokerage account. But yeah, combination of factors I think. There's also the fortune. Brian, that got just one side when we were in Dallas recently. So that's kind of the other end of the spectrum for the retail investor. You know, the meetings we had with individuals who are worth, you know, fifty, 100, hundreds of millions of dollars, very sophisticated, own multiple businesses. There's, you know, they're paying attention a little bit. Some knew where the price was somewhere like is more like, congratulations, Bitcoin was at $90,000 at that point. I missed that trade. But they also didn't seem too concerned about the trade that they had missed. So then there's still education there to be done, which is unintuitive that this is not a trade, that this is, you know, superior technology that everyone will adopt on some sort of timeline. And that is really hard to graph. So those, you know, for folks like that, I think they're still in their daily routine of watching CNBC, following NVIDIA, following the the hottest trends of the day, or, you know, just kind of the the framework that they're more used to evaluating and then not still quite sure how to evaluate this Bitcoin thing. You know, like one said, well, I just can't get rid of my head around how Bitcoin can be money. You know, you're saying it's better money. It's money. We we use that term, but it looks nothing like what we perceive as money where you're using that to transact and it's like relatively stable and boring. So just a lot of work there to be done even with very high net worth individuals and sophisticated individuals as well. Yeah. And so one thing I definitely want to touch on is Brian mentioned earlier, there are some harsh realities in this space. And then it also kind of ties into the unit bias in a different way of $100,000 Bitcoin and that's having a real conversation about securing 6 figure Bitcoin. So I saw this tweet that was put out might have been sometime last week by Oliver Velez. And it's kind of twofold. He's taking a break from Twitter, I think permanently. And that's part of him wanting to reduce his online profile and an acknowledgement that he thinks in in 2025, Bitcoin will become the most valuable asset on earth outside of gold. So it ties into our conversation earlier. He expects Bitcoin to continue to appreciate and to be the second most valuable asset following gold. So that puts Bitcoin somewhere around 200,000 to $900,000. And so even goes as far to say could topple gold. You know, we'll see about that. That's it's a very bullish. But either way, the point is he's tying this into how he thinks about his personal security and managing the asset himself. And this is really something that anyone who has a material allocation of Bitcoin, if you're not thinking about this already, you really need to be. And so his point is that when Bitcoin is 6 figures or it is the third, second most valuable asset on earth, people are going to have a target on their back. And no one wants to talk about this. And I, I, I don't like to think about it either because we're all public in the, in the space. And so we naturally will have targets on our backs by being publicly involved in the Bitcoin industry. And that's just. A fact of the matter. So what we really need to, to figure out as an industry, and this is a large part in why on ramp it exists, is we need better forms of custody and we need ways to protect our assets, protect our families, protect ourselves. And so this is going to be a really big issue. I, I hate to, I hate to admit that and I don't want to seem like I'm spreading FUD because for a while I actually did think that physical attacks and threats were FUD. But we've been having more conversations. I've spoken to people who in some cases have been impacted directly, but more so have heard of people or have read stories about people. Like even in the United States, I mean, the three of us are based in the US here and there's been over the course of the past couple years organized crime to target Bitcoin and crypto holders. So this is something nobody wants to think about, but it's something that everybody needs to think about at the same time. And so if we're actually going to make a decision to park a considerable amount of our wealth and Bitcoin for our families or for our business, etcetera, we need to really think about how do we secure it. So what do you guys think about this? Is this, am I, am I being hyperbolic in terms of how I'm reacting to this? Or do you guys kind of generally agree with this being a big issue? It's a, it's a huge issue. And you know, I, I think part of it for me is I've always found it surprising, or at least, you know, over the past couple of years as as I've gotten, you know, deeper into the space and thought about specifically custody more critically. It is surprising to me that so many people that have been in Bitcoin for so long and obviously have a constructive long term thesis on the asset fail to see this future reality where holding keys on your person or in your house could be a serious risk risk factor for the asset. If we just think about, you know, what we were talking about earlier around how early we are and how few people around the world understand this asset. That is also true of, you know, very few criminal networks understand this asset, maybe more than the average public just because of bitcoins like history in in that realm. But I would say it's still probably pretty low on the radar of the average criminal or attacker who's looking to, you know, do some sort of theft or robbery of of someone's assets. And so I think there is some amount of cognitive dissonance in the space of people not appreciating the reality of this risk and just thinking, you know, I'll be fine. I I know how to protect myself. I've got enough guns to to, you know, thwart off any potential attackers. But it's like, is that, is that the position you want to be in? Do you want to be protecting your family with guns? Like it it some people. Yeah, that's fine. And this, this goes back to sort of the what we've talked about a lot recently is, is, you know, 1 the diversification of custody options with Jackson, you've written about this as well. But also just this idea of like it's not all or nothing, as as Cam said before, like you don't need to be in fully, you know, purely self sovereign setup where you are the only one in charge and you're going to protect that with your life and your guns, you know, to the death in in some future reality or it doesn't have to be fully with a custodian, right? Like there's depending on how you perceive these different risks and threat threat vectors should influence sort of where you fall along that spectrum of these custody options. So like, for example, if you are super worried about these threats that we're talking about violence in the physical world, wrench attacks, then maybe you have a larger percentage over time and something like an on ramp vault where there's no single point of failure, but you're still not possessing keys yourself. So you don't have any worries in terms of someone commit, you know, coming to your house and commanding that you sign a transaction because you you can't. Well, and then on the other side, you know, maybe you perceive the risk of a 61O2 or some government coercion as as much likelier than that. So you know, you have maybe less of a percentage in in something like an on ramp ball. They're on Coinbase and you have a much larger percentage in your purely self sovereign setup. So it's like this sort of barbell approach of, you know, pure self custody and something like on ramp where at least you know, it is third party custody, but at least you don't have a single point of failure. You're not trusting a single entity. I think that's where most people end up over the next decade or so. But it is going to, unfortunately, I think, take more instances of things going wrong, people being attacked in the, in the real world for people to wake up to this reality. Because part of this too, that I think people don't appreciate is like in 10 years, if Bitcoin does what we think it does, there's a very real possibility that it's not that difficult for an attacker to sleuth out the fact that you own Bitcoin. Oh, by the way, they know your address. And so again, as the world wakes up to Bitcoin, criminals are going to wake up to Bitcoin too and realize that it's a pretty, pretty nice way for them to to, you know, conduct theft or robberies. That's actually easier than like some other forms of of theft or robbery in the sense that like, you know, you don't have to carry the assets out of the house necessarily. Like if you get access to someone's pass raises or, or coerce them to do something, you can just drain their accounts and you're off. You don't have to carry anything. It's you're, you know, physically unencumbered to pull off this attack. And so criminals are going to wake up to that over time. And I think the world could look completely different in 10 years in terms of people's readiness and willingness to secure private keys on themselves or in their house, or at least have the majority of their Bitcoin in that setup. I think it just, it slowly transitions over time to where you have a you have a few different solutions. You have a diversification of your custody setup where some of it's always, you know, under your mattress ready to go if need be, but some you actually can't access because you don't actually control the private keys. You can access it through a client relationship with an on ramp, but there's those processes and controls in place so that it actually makes it difficult to move the asset, which in this scenario is a good thing. Right. And to highlight that, Brian, so specifically here at On Ramp, when a client requests a withdrawal, they schedule a live video call with a member of our team. So we're confirming a number of different things. You know, one that is that individual who owns the account, maybe they set up some specific client controls around their vaults when they onboarded. And then we're making sure that they're not under duress. And people ask me sometimes, well, how will you know I'm under dress like? Well, unless you're Ryan Gosling or Brad Pitt or the best actor in the world, like I will notice that you are acting very strangely and that you're sweating and pale. So we record that video call. We compare it with the video that the client onboarded uploaded when they onboarded. There's a quorum of on ramp team members that review those two videos on ramp signs with our key. And then about 24 to 48 hours later, depending on the time that the client requests the withdrawal and and how promptly they schedule that video call, they repeat the process with one of our key partners, typically bit Go. So they have a, they schedule again a live video call with bit Go. They're making sure the client is under duressed. They're comparing that call versus the video that the output loaded and then Bitcoin can be withdrawn. So what that means for the attacker is a worst case scenario. They break in. You're telling them I've already put my Bitcoin behind multiple institutions to prevent this exact scenario from occurring. You know, the attacker, the last thing they want to do is to hang around with you for two days. Maybe you put client controls where it was a week. Maybe, you know, for some of our private clients, they've elected to require that for initiating a withdrawal, they need to meet us in person at an on ramp location so that we can confirm their safety. So in that scenario, I think the the best practice is to even if you have guns, you really don't want to get into a gun battle. You want to try to get them out of your house. You want to call 911 and and leave the phone on and kick it away. You want to try to give them something that will placate them. And I think what that ends up being for a lot of Bitcoiners is Bitcoin investors is the small amount of Bitcoin that you keep on a single signature hardware wallet. If you've developed that skill and that muscle, as Brian said, to use that barbell approach, I really view that now as like, that's the Bitcoin you're willing to lose, whether it's an attacker or it's a house fire or I talked with someone this week who's in Florida where the water got within inches of where he stored his hardware wallet and almost lost it all. That's how high the waters rose. So you're so right. Like imagine like the and imagine gold tomorrow goes like, you know, it quadruples in price. And then attackers realize like, well, OK, well, how is this gold store? Like truly they keep it all at banks, right? Or they keep in secure vaults. And then they're seeing that the whole big gold community is all about self custody and keeping it naturally in their homes, which is the one place that they can reasonably secure for for most people, that's a really that's a recipe for disaster. So there are ways in self custody where you can distribute keys amongst multiple geographic locations. But I can tell you from experience too, unfortunately, as much as you try to imbue that best practice and impart that in and really hammer that home and insist on it from clients again and again, most people are busy or couldn't tell you where to start to secure the keys outside of their home. Or like how many banks have safe deposit boxes today? Some do, many don't. So it becomes very challenging. And then what people do is it drops lower and lower in their To Do List the keys all up end up in the house. Even if they have multiple keys, it's in one location. They're not achieving realizing some of the benefits of even self custody multi sync because it's not geographically distributed. So they're still at risk from that physical attack. So yeah, super uncomfortable to think about. And I can tell you even personally, I feel extremely good about my Bitcoin setup. But even as we've hit 100K, subconsciously I've been doing things around the house the last couple weeks to bolster security of the home. And I was like, I kind of caught myself, like, oh, I'm doing this because now I'm more concerned about the physical safety of my family. It really is disconcerting. And it's real. So it's not FUD. It's really trying to help people get ahead of this based on the hundreds and thousands of conversations we've had with individuals who have experienced this in real life for second hand. Yeah. And even if that's not a risk that someone is concerned about it, I think that you should be concerned at least a little bit or be proactive in thinking about it. But even if it's not that your top concern, which I would say it's not my top concern, I've also been concerned about managing keys over the past several years. And me being a single point of failure in the sense that, you know, my wife, my family, they don't really know how to sign a transaction. They don't fully understand the seed phrase. And you know, how do you recover a wallet with that? And so I had other issues that I had to think about as well. And these are issues that in my experience from just speaking to clients every day, most people are experiencing this as well where they're, they're starting to become this acknowledgement where, you know, I felt comfortable doing this when Bitcoin was 5000 or $20,000 or $50,000. But now it's 6 figures and it's a considerable amount of my net worth, whether it's 10 percent, 2550, etcetera. Some people, some people are close to 100%, right? And so there becomes a point where if you're honest with yourself, you recognize that there's a lot of discomfort. And maybe four years ago last cycle, you could have pushed that off because it wasn't because Bitcoin wasn't as much of your foundation of your financial plan. But the reality is now, well, OK, I need to look myself in the mirror. And if I mess something up, then I'm jeopardizing my family and putting them in a spot where they've entrusted me to be managing our family's personal assets. And I've decided that Bitcoin has been a great way to grow our wealth. But now I'm also recognizing that I could mess all this up, right? And this could be I could lose a considerable amount of my money. So human error is a thing too. And ties into kind of what Cam mentioned earlier about going hunting, right? So like, if you haven't used a, a firearm before and someone hands it over to you, you're not going to know how to shoot a gun. And if, if you can figure it out, you're not going to be able to shoot a well. And so the same thing is like if you're the only person who uses a hardware wallet and you know, most people are maybe using it a couple times a year or maybe once a year, right? Most people are not doing this on a frequent basis. And then so you're doing it on an infrequent basis and you already are having some discomforts about it yourself. Now put yourself in the shoes of your family, right where they, they've may may have held it in their hand before, but they've never actually used. In most cases, most people's family have never actually signed a transaction. So now it's like you have to acknowledge that there you've removed counterparty risk, you're not trusting a single institution anymore. And that's always been really important is don't leave all your Bitcoin with one institution that controls all the keys and can lose your assets, steal your assets or be compromised in some way. So you've taken you've taken full responsibility, which is a great thing to do. That's one of the beautiful things about Bitcoin is that you can do that. But there also are these realities that are setting in with six figure Bitcoin and appreciation, you know, on the horizon into next year where maybe things should be reconsidered. Maybe to Brian's point, Cam's point, Bron like everyone's kind of acknowledged that diversification of plays a critical role in traditional finance in you know, managing portfolios. Well, the four of us, we, we think the Bitcoin plays a bigger role in our finances than equities or real estate or fixed income, whatever. But now we need to think about diversification of custody and how do you manage different trade-offs and risks of various solutions. Very well so, Jackson. Cool. Well, I know we're well over time, so we could wrap it up here. I think one thing that would be important to highlight is that for folks who have been listening to the last trade or any of the On Ramp media shows. If you are interested in learning more about what we're doing here at On Ramp and you haven't gotten in touch with us or maybe we spoke, you know, months ago and wasn't the right time, please reach out. We do, We want to help our clients. We want to protect their families, help them with inheritance, secure custody, access to financial services, all the things we discussed and we will continue to discuss. We, we're leaders in the space and we want to help you. And if you know you're starting to have more concerns about managing the asset for yourself or your business, etcetera, now is a great time to get in touch. I know the holidays can be busy, but we'll carve out some time, we'll meet with you, we'll understand your situation and if this does make sense for you to you know work with on ramp, we'll make it happen. And we also are offering some attractive incentive pricing for folks aligned on the value proposition, you know have been following the research, the content, etcetera. So again, now is a great time get your financial house in order, reach out and we'll take care of you. And like I said, we got have some concessions there for the end of the year. So thanks guys. Appreciate your time. Thanks for joining today and good discussion as always and thanks for the listeners for tuning in week after week. Really appreciate everyone who's following along here. Thanks everyone. Thanks guys. Good Rep, Thanks for listening to this week's episode of the show. If you found the information valuable, please share the episode with a friend or leave a rating on your favorite podcast app. All the links we discussed in today's show will be in the show notes inside your podcast app. Before we finish, a quick reminder that Onramp Media is for informational and entertainment purposes only, and nothing should be construed as investment or legal advice. Regardless of where you are on your Bitcoin journey, we'd love to hear from you. Visit onrampbitcoin.com/contact to schedule a consultation with one of our private Client Advisors.
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