Transcript+
Welcome to The New Frontier, a Bitcoin centric podcast that bridges the gap between the transformative world of Bitcoin and the unique financial landscape of the Middle East. This podcast is brought to you by Onramp Mino and is Co hosted by Ralph Debran, Managing Partner, Onramp Mino and Harris Irfan, CEO of Cordoba Capital Markets and advisor to Onramp Mino. Ralph and Harris have built their careers in traditional finance, accumulating extensive experience across capital markets, investment banking and asset management. Each episode delves deep into how Bitcoin is reshaping finance, technology, and investment within the region and beyond. From macroeconomic trends to real world applications, and from Islamic finance to sustainable energy practices, this show covers it all. In this episode, we're excited to welcome Abu Baker Nur Hadil, a leading voice in Africa's Bitcoin ecosystem. As a Bitcoin Core contributor and CEO of Recursive Capital, Abu Baker combines Bitcoin development with strategic funding to drive innovation. He also leads B Trust, a nonprofit focused on advancing African Bitcoin development through initiatives like B Trust Builders. As a contributor to Forbes Digital Assets, Abu Baker shares key insight on Bitcoin's impact and potential across Africa, bringing this narrative to a global stage Today, we'll uncover Abu Baker's journey from discovering Bitcoin to becoming a leader in making Bitcoin accessible and ethically aligned for Muslims. We'll explore how Bitcoin empowers Muslims to pursue a halal lifestyle, foster economic justice, and offers financial independence in ways the traditional financial system often cannot. Get ready for a transformative discussion? Let's dive right in. Hey everyone, welcome back to the New Frontier. I'm joined with my Co host Harris Irfan and Abu Baker Noor Khalil. How's everyone doing? Hey. Ralph, nice to you. Great. Hey, Abu Baker, It's great to have you. I'm a big fan of your work and you know, you've been doing a lot within the space itself. And maybe you can start off by telling us a little bit about yourself and your Bitcoin journey. I'm quite interested in that part. You know, you are one of the younger folks on this call. I can say that. So maybe you can tell us how you got into Bitcoin and what attracted to it. So I'll leave it to you. Go ahead, man. Yeah. That's for sure. It was honestly one of those things where it wasn't necessarily like I had a very good understanding initially of what Bitcoin was to even understand like what the body proposition was. To be honest, I think the main thing that attracted me was really the the technological side. Like it was just fascinating to me that money could be in this shape and form. So at the time I was like teaching myself how to kind of program. I was still kind of not getting through life in terms of what I want to do. I was looking to get into college to study architecture at the time and eventually turned into engineering. And then eventually I never went because of Bitcoin. But that was right about the same time when I was kind of just figuring out life. So Bitcoin came out honestly the perfect time in terms of like self discovery and even just understanding what money is because again, I had no bank account at the time too, for context. So like my first foray into what money is and obviously now in heights, I'm really great. That was the first entry into money because made me really sit back and kind of understand what money is generally as a concept, whether it's like commodity based money or just Fiat in general. So one of the things that really attracted me beyond the tech after at least the first couple weeks of just reading things I honestly didn't understand was the more I grasped kind of the technological side, the more I started understanding exactly. I know what the value prop was because I was using Bitcoin like I was getting paid for a lot of freelance stuff at the time in Bitcoin. So for me, the ability honesty of just like receiving money from pretty much random folks around the Internet and then doing the same vice versa was really novel. Because I know a lot of people around me at the time were telling me that, you know, their bank accounts get shut down or in it's very difficult to send money within Africa, outside of Africa or even just generally being involved in like some of these other fintechs or some services. So it's really interesting for me at the time to go, Hey, you know, I've never faced any of these issues, you know, like how I'm like they have been using Bitcoin. And weirdly enough at the time, it's not like Bitcoin was that easy to use to begin with. I mean, it was pretty much pretty much felt like I was doing, you know, illegal things where he had to with like these shady parts to off ramp essentially to get cash. I had a episode of such a such an event in Dubai where I went to Coinspara to like send them Bitcoin and I got cash. It just felt like one of those cyberpunk episodes. But yeah, a lot of it honestly was just the freedom I pretty much gained from using Bitcoin. And then over time, I started realizing even more implications when it came to things like changing other people's lives around me. And family especially were like the first to get orange built. And ironically, I myself got orange built from my older brother, who now works full time in the government. So it was already like a pretty much Bitcoin family. So that actually just translated into, OK, how much more value could I contribute to this space to give people as much of the same opportunity I got getting into this space as, you know, potentially Bitcoin could offer, right? That's, that's fascinating, especially, you know, from an educational point of view. So you started off wanting to be an architect and then you found yourself deep into computer science and engineering. And now, if I'm not mistaken, not only are you a speaker educator, but you are also a Bitcoin Core contributor. Is that correct? Oh yeah, that was actually an interesting. One, yeah, maybe you can shed some light. A lot of people know that, you know, Bitcoin Core devs are an important part of the Bitcoin ecosystem, but not a lot of people know what that looks like. We constantly say, you know, it's open source, everyone has access to the code. Maybe before we dive into, you know, the Islamic finance side of things, because I understand that, you know, that's really important for you on a personal level, maybe you can just give us a glimpse of what that looks like because you are really in the weeds. Unlike myself with a traditional finance background. Harris also has worked in Triadfi as well. So the tech side is always, you know, very interesting for us to learn about and I'm sure our audience would appreciate it. You know for sure. I mean, it kind of just happened along the way. Like I never set out to go, you know, I really want to be involved at that level. But at the same time, for me, again, spending programming at the time was pretty. So this was like roughly 2019 by the time I started really understanding the concepts on the technical side. So I was like, okay, this is very interesting. And then I stumbled upon the GitHub repo where the repository is for the code essentially running the software. And it was interesting to me. So I started stalking, honestly the repository, seeing how the conversations go, kind of the dynamics cuz which with like each open source project, there's like pretty much a culture within it. And then like there's this subculture that exists where people have this, I guess, norms that people have to follow, whether it comes to being polite or how you present your ideas or kind of the back and forth. So I've been doing that for a couple weeks. And then I was on Twitter at the time and I saw a post saying like, you know, there's this PR that got merged. So like a code change that got merged by an IGN developer. I was like, oh, wow, interesting. So there are folks from my end actually contributing. So that kind of gave me the give me kind of the impetus, honestly, to just give it a shot. So I'm just scouring for like quick things to get involved with like Bitcoin Core on the chain side. And I came across this issue that was talking about like changing, I think the name on the window for the GUI. And I was like, OK, I might as well try that. And obviously at the time was pretty much a novice when it comes to C++, Not like I'm an expert now, but at the time I was like, OK, this is an interesting challenge. So that's the first time I like compiled Bitcoin Core. I started working on it and then honestly, it took like quite a long time just to make that well, in hindsight, minor change, but really the whole process taught me a lot of things about kind of the dynamics of the ecosystem, specifically how open they are to new contributors. I mean, at the time and even till the a lot of people have this perception that because it's not only just toxic, but like completely against new folks coming in. But honestly, from the time I got involved to date, like it's been one of the most welcoming communities. Like they're very, very few people around the world that are actually working on Bitcoin, especially on a day-to-day. So like the opportunity to have people that are able to contribute value to the code, like they're always welcome. So I had a lot of people that were kind of just helping out with answering questions that honestly at the time were just like, honestly very, very, I say not too smart questions on my end. So it was really cool to see all that accepting and welcoming environment really for the on the code side. So yeah, from then on, I just started continuing to contribute to that network. And now it's mostly like PR reviews. So essentially looking at other people's reviews and then obviously like sponsoring developers, 23B trust and all that. But yeah, that whole experience talking a lot about the technical side, the dynamics on how Bitcoin Core works. And since then, I've definitely just falling in love with the ecosystem. Really. It's like a really, really welcoming ecosystem. It's amazing. Thank you for sharing that. Well, I'll hand it over to Harris. I'm sure he's got a few questions for you. Yeah. I mean, like Ralph, I'm fascinated, Abu Baker, with your sort of tech journey because it's an area that both Ralph and I are less familiar with, again, given our tried FIRE backgrounds. But what I also find fascinating is you've had a journey and you know, you, you, there's something in that journey that I, I think is very interesting and that is your faith as a Muslim. How do you think that has affected how you view Bitcoin and where you see the future for Bitcoin? Oh, a lot. And again, at the time of just getting involved with Bitcoin in general, it was it also coincided with kind of the time in my life where I was kind of searching for deeper purpose and meaning. It was one of the issues I had at the time of like contemplating what to do in college or potentially for the rest of my life was what really is at the core of who I am specifically at a spiritual level. As well as just like metaphysically speaking, like a lot of the conversation slash introspection at the time was again, faith rediscovery at the time because obviously I grew up most of them. But again, it's one thing to grow up Muslim and it's another thing to kind of objectively understand exactly why you're Muslim or at least have defendable positions and things like that. So for me, the value was I want to strip myself of all these things that I think make up who I am and then kind of go from Ground Zero to first principles of kind of re architecting how I see myself, how I operate in the world and potentially what I could do for the rest of my life. So a lot of that honesty was involved in like just getting down and like getting my hands dirty on the philosophy side. So doing a lot of work around, you know, metaphysics, ontology, epistemology, all of that and honesty even compared to religion I had to point to. So I really had to go through the whole process of relearning Islam from scratch from a pretty philosophical side and like understanding and kind of growing and falling back in love, honestly with like the relationship with a lot. And a lot of that for me was Bikram played a huge role because again, learning about how money works and then like obviously coming across Riba and some of those concepts for me, I was like, wow, okay, so prior to Bitcoin, a lot of the circumstances that a lot of Muslims are going through around, around the world, even to date, honesty for people that are using Bitcoin involves kind of having to play with things that are completely against them, kind of antithetical to the ethical framework that SM operates from both the individual to the societal level. So for me, I was thinking, OK, even the fact that Bitcoin is like, if not the only halal money, then it's, it's one of, I guess the way I looked at it was honestly, Bitcoin is kind of a mercy from God. And the way I was really going about it is understanding, OK, Bitcoin is the only halal money. And like, this is something that we've never had honestly, in the digital realm or even as a society beyond, you know, commodities based currencies like gold and silver, which at least to my understanding now is kind of like the the bedrock when it comes to some of the, some of the scholarly consensus or at least opinions on how Islamic finance should run. Then this digital alternative that we have, which is a lot more portable and a lot more a lot easier for people to kind of on board too. I felt at the time, getting myself involved with this will be like the easiest way for me to be, you know, living a halal lifestyle and obviously earning in Bitcoin was also very important for me. And obviously having the freedom, it did allow for me to kind of again, supercharge some of the reading I was doing when it came to some of the insights about Islam and how to live your life. So from that point on of like learning how halal Bitcoin is and how it has kind of helped out, not even just kind of like honestly completely changed the way I look at finance. And just like living my life and orienting myself to the base principles of Islam of like understanding and kind of looking and seeking for knowledge, trying to be as good as possible to my neighbors, just being a productive human being in general. I think without Bitcoin, there wouldn't necessarily have been a larger emphasis on my end of going down that path of kind of reworking exactly what it means to be, you know, a productive society or like a productive person in society and just a good Muslim in general. So it definitely played a huge part in, it's one of the reasons why now I'm like even more passionate about just unlocking this for other folks, especially Muslims around the world, to understand that we finally have an alternative that is halal. Yeah, well, I mean that that's mind blowing. And thank you for sharing that with us. I, I, I hear this not just from Muslims, I hear this from people of many different faiths and people of no particular faith either that, you know, it changed their world perspective. And I, I love your phrase. You know, it's a, it's a mercy from God. And many Christians also use a similar type of phrase. You know, it's, it's, it's, it's God's money. It's, it's a blessing. Thank God for Bitcoin is a, is a famous book that you can read, You know, so I'm, I'm actually fascinated by this. You talk about, you know, what is the core of who I am? You looked at this from first principles. You read philosophy and I, I think that's a fascinating way to look at this. What do you say to those Muslims, especially the standard bearers of Sharia? Who are the theologians, the scholars who say, you know, somewhat dismissively, they'll say, oh, Bitcoin is Haram or you know, I don't like Bitcoin because and then fud, fud, fud. So they'll quote things like volatility and risking and speculation and environmental pollution. Where do you go? What's the approach that and we have a rebuttal for each of them obviously, but what's your approach to dealing with that kind of FUD, especially from theologians? So it's definitely evolved over time, but I think some of the core things that I've seen have worked in terms of the dialogue and progressing that conversation has been really turning the tables really, and making them understand that it is incumbent on them. Because again, at the end of the day, one of their primary responsibilities is people that have knowledge is for them to be that light bearer for other people that aren't necessarily at the same level or depth of understanding of the faith. So a lot of the times the way I approach it first and foremost is going going the path of again, starting a conversation as again, your main responsibility to the Omar is really providing us that wealth of understanding that like holistic view of exactly how we could lead again, Islamic life and how we could actually attain this level of high virtue. And a lot of that has to do with when we're looking at money, because money obviously plays a huge part in exactly how a personal function in society or is able to live a good life. Because again, there are things like greed and all that that comes into play. So for me, the understanding is starting to talk about money from like first principles with them and getting a sense of understanding from where they're coming from in terms of how they understand money to that extent. Because while obviously a lot of the times and most of the time, their knowledge is obviously way higher than mine. So it's not like one of those things where I would approach them from the Islamic side where their knowledge is way beyond mine. So obviously you'll be a lot less productive for me to kind of approach them or kind of argue. So for me, it's taking it to the domain of exactly what they think Bitcoin is, such what they think money is. And then approaching it as kind of having a middle ground of what are the issues that right now that they're able to confirm to me are present in Fiat or existing frameworks that we have for Islamic finance. And then picking apart kind of the the argument and introducing Bitcoin from kind of that general framework in terms of how they could plug Bitcoin, that would make a lot more sense to them as opposed to saying Bitcoin does XYZ and This is why it's allow. And then further from that, I've seen a lot of success in terms of kind of unraveling what Bitcoin is practically for them. So this also even involves like sending Bitcoin to them and seeing exactly how that works. And then even even just going going around and kind of educating them around like the fact that most if not all money is digital to begin with. So in terms of having a lack of that tangibility for Bitcoin, that isn't necessarily a, an argument that you can make because again, Sonic Finance is dealing with intangible assets most of the time. So that already is just kind of a, an argument that can't be brought forth. And then digging deep into understanding that there is there's no concept of RIBA or like interest within the Bitcoin ecosystem, making them understand proof of work from scratch, understanding that, yes, without getting into the degree of mining, but kind of just on giving them like a general philosophical overview of how energy is able to back this currency at a level that makes it very, very tight to physics. And in a way that honestly, no digital equivalent is, is available. And then going again from that journey, once we get to the point where they understand, OK, Bitcoin isn't necessarily just this thing that people speculate on. And it's basically on the speculation side. It's mostly combos around making them understand that the speculation isn't an inherent property of Bitcoin itself. It's really just an inherent property of people not having a good enough framework for evaluating this thing and obviously over time, understanding that it is scarce. And here are the potentials that keep coming as a result of, you know, technological advancement of just using Bitcoin as a technology. And then making them understand that a lot of these factors is why you continue to see that volatility because again, people are trying to pricing, you know, the future of this currency itself. And again, once we get past that, we get into, OK, Bitcoin is such a good halal money that is able to encompass things like wealth generation or wealth accumulation, also able to facilitate things like trade is able to act as a commodity. And then before, you know, the end of most of these conversations, they would have already gone away with quite a lot when it comes to re understanding exactly what Bitcoin is and how it could fit in. And then honestly, subsequent conversations are a lot easier to the point where I've had some clerics come back to me and they're like, oh, this is an interesting thing I've found about Bitcoin when it comes to, you know, how it plays a role in Islamic finance or wow, I really didn't think a lot about a lot of the things I was talking about when it comes to some of the frameworks we were discussing. And then getting into things like Madaraba, which is very interesting, a lot of that has propped up pretty recently for a lot of folks, especially given the amount of capital getting in that's seeking Bitcoin ventures exclusively. So I think, yeah, a lot of that is kind of how I tried to approach the general conversations and at least the successes we've seen is very, they've definitely been very, very recent, like early on most of the times just shut down. Excellent. I mean, what's, what's an example of a claret coming back to you and saying, Hey, I just discovered this fascinated thing or this is a really this, I read about this more and now I'm, I really need to know more about Bitcoin. What's an example of that? Another example is I think of the Madaraba case specifically. We had a conversation early on of like, again, all the things I just described. And then towards the end, I was giving him a few examples of like, you know, the VC side of having some of these Bitcoin VCs specifically aligning themselves as Bitcoin exclusively. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. Why I, I thought they would kind of spread around their investments, but I was like, no, if you think about it, we're talking about things that are in the long term. So we want to make sure that we're capturing value in something that would exist in that long term. And the conversation kind of went into asking about exactly how Bitcoin fits in terms of like real world benefits to the society and all that. And then I got into things around like Bitcoin mining allowing for individuals to electrify communities, for example. And then the follow up from him was OK. Because I gave him a few links to kind of take a look at it and get back to me, really. So he got back and he was like, wow. First and foremost, I didn't think Bitcoin was beneficial to society to that extent, especially when it comes to like energy and kind of energy abundance and providing hope, which was kind of how the conversation ended initially with him. You know, like, so if we're talking about this asset and kind of how it plays a role in terms of just helping the Omar generally, we already know that a lot of parts in in the world, especially in Muslim majority countries, there are a lot of issues that have to do with a lack of access to electricity, education, housing issues and things like that. And honestly, at the core of a lot of these things, we kind of narrowed it down to a lack of having energy abundance in a lot of these communities. Because again, once you have that energy abundance, kind of the attendant benefits or consequences to that is allowing for individuals to now expand kind of the capacity of how they lead their lives where there is having increased electricity. And then from that having increased commerce and from that having increased livelihoods. And then from that they have this kind of spiraling, I guess progress generally that's felt throughout the the community that they have, whether it's local level or all the way up to the kind of nation state. So that's kind of some of the some of the follow-ups I've had recently, which is very refreshing to see because now we're at a time where we have a lot of these case studies to point to. Previously I was just like talking and then they're like, oh, you know, this is mostly theoretical, like, yeah, I know, but it's going to happen. So now it's very refreshing to see that it has happened even at a scale that honestly I wouldn't have predicted like 2-3 years ago. So. What you're doing is really you're you're appealing to them on an emotional level. You're talking to them about real world social impact and you talk about building communities and electrification and energy usage. And rather than a very technical rebufftal of, you know, the volatility profile of Bitcoin over the last 15 years, These are, I mean, these are logical ways to respond, but logic doesn't always appeal to people. And you can be as logical as you like and they're still won't get the, the point of it, But when you appeal to their heart and you say, hey, here's a social impact, Here's how your world can be better. Let's imagine a world with and without Bitcoin and a world with Bitcoin looks like this. And by the way, here are some examples from real world communities where this has happened. I, I think that's a very powerful way to explain Bitcoin to people just in terms of, of specific questions that you get, especially from scholars, but also from Muslims generally. What are the things that they worry about? What are the things that they they used to to deny that Bitcoin is useful and how do you respond to those specific issues? I mean, there's still some of the common ones like volatility. And then again, the argument gets into we're such, we're essentially in a very nascent space. And honestly, a lot of it, a lot of it is just kind of inherent to the fact that all of this is just so new. So a lot of people are still figuring out exactly how to value that and things like that. I mean, honestly, when it comes to volatility generally, it's very interesting now because so many economies across, especially in Africa have gone to, you know, it's an explicit explicative, but it's definitely not going, it's not going into regions that we want to want to really clamor about. And so a lot of the time when they bring up volatility, I'm like, you know, the narrow, for example, has been way more volatile than Bitcoin. So that isn't necessarily an argument for saying why this isn't a currency. So a lot of that has been really easy to kind of handle out. I think the majority of the time for a lot of folks is still wrapping their heads around disambiguating everything they feel is Bitcoin, which is most of the time just crypto. And then what exclusively is unique about Bitcoin and how they can approach that just from strictly the lens of understanding Bitcoin native things. So a lot of that has to do with looking at the wider space and seeing, you know, whether it's hacks or some of the scamming that goes with like rug pools and all that. And honestly, the majority of the time is just spent trying to disambiguate the whole ecosystem into this is Bitcoin and this is crypto. And then having them understand that everything that they've experienced, which has been negative most of the time, if not all the time, has been due to either crypto or people from the crypto space kind of bringing them into Bitcoin and usually just scamming them and saying, you know, I'll buy Bitcoin for you. Whereas they really don't do that. And other than that, I think more more long term is really just a lack of, I guess, products and services that appeal to them in terms of lending, for example, which we still don't necessarily have a robust set of, I guess what you could call products and services that address, you know, the ethical side of like lending, whether it's we're looking at just purely over collateralized loans and having loans that are necessarily tied to the river, for example, But the Bitcoin equivalent there is still not there yet. So a lot of the times, honestly, they do bring that up in terms of, yes, we hear you in terms of some of the benefits and kind of how this can plug into our lives. But what are some practical ways in which we can engage with that when it comes to either mortgages or kind of loans and things like that? And again, like I said, the space is, is definitely too early. I don't see a lot of mature tools that we can recommend on that level. And then when it comes to even just on ramping and off ramping, a lot of the times it feels like we are really far into the feature when it comes to Bitcoin. And like we have so much more tools now available to us. But it's still not as convenient honestly to get people on ramp than even off ramping. Especially when you're dealing with people that don't necessarily have maybe documentation to the effect of being citizens, for example, or even just general documentation around like driver's license or some other things that maybe other services require that allow for this on and off ramp. So yeah, we're still stuck at a point where we don't have effective no P to PKYC tools that I feel is has to be at the bedrock for a lot of this. Because without that, there's no, there's really that ability for them to get into the space to still maintain their freedom and honesty access to using Bitcoin freely. So again, a lot of the main convos are around that really. So I'm going to give Ralph a chance to, to step in in a second and talk because these tech projects that you're alluding to are, are fascinating. We need to know more about them. But, but just before we come to that, I just want to finish off with, with asking you a little bit. And I know Islamic finance is not your specific area of expertise, but it's something that you have come to sort of, you know, spend some time looking at. And I'm, you may have heard of a recent announcement in Pakistan that there is a, a suggestion or a move to remove river completely from their financial system by 2028, which is, I mean, you know, if that is true, then under the law, that's fantastic. I think that's somewhat ambitious. It's been tried before in Pakistan and it's, it hasn't worked. The the common narrative is that the Pakistan financial system will move 100% to Islamic banking and that is how they'll eliminate river in their economy by 2028. What are your views on that? Very broadly this is about, you know, restoring economic justice. Do you think that's possible using Islamic banking as we understand it today? Definitely not as we understand it today, like from what I gather and having confidence with you and other experts in the field, first and foremost, there's not like there already is a level of compliance that a lot of people feel is, is what we need really when we're talking about Islamic finance. Because a lot of the times most people feel like, you know, Islamic finance and Islamic banking has already solved all the issues with regards to being 100% halal where it's not the case. So already from just basic, basically just approaching that from like first principles, we already know that that is like a faulty way to approach that because the initial premise is already faulty. So it's not like you can actually build on top of that. I think if they do these, from what I can tell, they seem very, very serious about this given the ambitious target. So I feel what would be beneficial for them is to engage with folks that are really building again, some of these parts and services that are at the nation state level that do allow for this restoration of justice, an actual allow money. And a lot of that would involve, you know, looking at it strictly from how can they empower their nation when it comes to sovereignty. Specifically on the money side. Is it looking at their sovereign wealth fund, if they do have one or maybe investments and having some of that allocated into Bitcoin? Maybe just looking at other ways in which they could plug this into the general society, whether it comes to get some of these products and services that have to do with ethical frameworks for accessing loans through Bitcoin and some of these other general things like electrification through Bitcoin mining, all of that. So I feel they are able to fully embrace and immerse themselves into some of the things that already work in the Bitcoin space and could potentially work. They could serve as like a proper blueprint, fighting for other countries that are trying to do this sort of ambitious 360. Interesting. Amazing. Just wanted to touch on real fast the issue of volatility. So I understand even for folks that are outside of the Islamic communities, volatility is typically the biggest concern and volatility has gotten a bad name. So I'll just shed a bit of knowledge here. So when you look at normal distributions of traditional asset classes, the reason why volatility is so bad because the returns of those asset classes usually are labeled as normally distributed. So they're symmetrical. There's as much positive and as much negative. But the reality is with traditional asset classes, it's actually skewed to the left towards it's negatively skewed. So there's more negative returns than there are positive ones. So that's why volatility gets a bad name. But if you look at Bitcoins normal distribution, and this is what's fascinating, Bitcoin is quite positively skewed, meaning the volatility is actually good volatility. So people fail to create a distinction between bad and good volatility. So if you have a asset, sound money, investment, whatever you want to call it, that has a positively skewed return distribution, that is literally an asymmetric bet and it's a feature. And ideally all the assets in the world would have a positively skewed return distribution. But the reality, none of them do except Bitcoin. So when people talk about volatility, that's what I typically say. I mean, if you had, you know, a skewness and also from the volatility point of view, I think the way we can address that is by expanding the time horizon because short term volatility is usually what they refer to when it's about volatility. But the longer the time horizon. And if I understand correctly, you know, in Islam, inheritance and long term thinking are a big component in that cultural aspect. So trying to expand their time horizon is definitely, you know, aligned not just from the Muslim community, but also from a Christian community because we are on this earth, but we are thinking about the future and what comes next. We're not just living in the present. Our actions, you know, are based in what we expect down the line. So that's why I find Bitcoin so fascinating because there's so many religious ties that that work together. And you know, since I was in Bitcoin, I became more religious and I'd like to think of myself as a better person. It's really helped with my time horizon. Let's take a moment to talk about On Ramp Mina. As a driving force behind the new frontier, On Ramp Mina offers best in class education and advisory services for Bitcoin accumulation strategy in custody. Our expert team specializes in crafting tailored Bitcoin strategies and providing recommendations that ensure your assets are both secure and accessible. Book a consultation with On Ramp Mina today to take the first step towards securing your financial future with Bitcoin. Visit ourwebsite@onrapnina.com to learn more and schedule your consultation. And now let's get back to the show. Switching on real fast. So we spoke about, you know, the scholars, your approach to them. We have two systems right now, the traditional Fiat system and now we have an alternative system which is basically outside of it and not connected in any form of way. Now when we talk about Islamic finance and like you said, a lot of people, they think they've solved all the issues with money through the Islamic finance ecosystem. And like you mentioned, the foundation. So the layer one of that protocol is corrupt. So the money is debt based at the end of the day. How do you view a transition? Do you think we need to tear down the system and rebuild using sound money at the foundation? I'm just curious. I know this is really a far fetched question, but I'd love to get your thoughts. You know, you're in this space, you're going through a personal discovery, but and you're very into Bitcoin and you have deep insights on the technological component in the ecosystem. How do you view potential transition? Because I'm sure when you tell scholars we need to turn off the old system and start a new system, you get a lot of hesitation and, you know, it's kind of scary to, you know, try something new. So I'll stop there. I'd love to get your thoughts on that. And Harris, I'd also love to get your thoughts on that afterwards as well. So two different opinions on this matter. No, for sure. I think so. You're definitely right, like a lot of the a lot of the mistakes I made early on and some of these conversations was painting it as like everything you've done is pretty much useless and this is this novel thing that could help out. So get rid of everything you pretty much know and kind of like the careers you've built and that domain, but with obviously over time and like being looking a lot more tactful when it comes to some of these conversations, how to approach them. I found that there's wisdom and understanding and meeting people exactly where they are in terms of their their current journey or where they are currently in life and kind of their outlook. And for me, a lot of the Times Now, the conversation isn't necessarily let's throw away everything that we've kind of learned or things that we know about the ecosystem or just like Sonic Finance, that the main thing I found that has been most effective is making them understand that everything that has been done, slash learnt. And all the insights that we've gotten from Islamic by Islamic finance and an Islamic banking in general is part and parcel of the general progression that we've had to have gone through from leaving commodity based currencies into getting into more into the digital realm. So I kind of painted as that was just a part of the wider journey that we have to make in terms of seeking an even more halal or Islamic oriented kind of focus when it comes to money in general. So a lot of the times they're like, OK, that definitely makes a lot of sense. And then we get into now that we've had all this insight and kind of the grievances and learnings that we've had from why Islamic banking, Islamic finance hasn't necessarily achieved all the goals that were set out initially like decades ago to we've seen all of that. But now we have another alternative which could, which could help progresses into our again, our journey for finding this halal money and finding a better money that will really help re architect society into, you know, providing a lot more out of really or like kindness towards one another or having this charitable ecosystem. So a lot of the times it's not necessarily tearing down what we've built and everything that's happened and starting from scratch is really building on top of what we've learned and kind of removing all the negatives, toxicities, all the things that are necessarily helpful. And then replacing all of that with all the benefits that we see currently within Bitcoin. And then building on top of that into, again, this general future that we keep seeking. Because again, it is a constant journey for all of us when it comes to seeking out ways in which to increase our Iman, increase our understanding, our virtues and principles. So that's kind of how I paint the picture and generally how I see this. Yeah, very, very well, said Abubakar. I, I have a, an interesting correspondence and an interaction with people who attack me for things that I have done in the past. So I mean, I went on one podcast where the interviewer said that you're the guy who's responsible for the Makkah Towers project, the big clock tower in Makkah, which of course is an abomination. And, and I was, I was responsible. I was one of the finance teams that funded one of the seven towers in that project, not, not the clock tower itself, But, you know, some people and I and I often express regret about this. And I say, look, you know, this is what Islamic finance actually achieved in the real world. And it wasn't a great thing in my opinion. And people attack you and they'll say, oh, you know, look at this guy. He, you know, he made his money in Fiat banking. And now he's, you know, trying to pretend that he's all sorry about it. And, you know, he's seized on some new fad that he's pitching to everybody, you know, and, and you know, this is, this is, this is hypocrisy, this is whatever, you know, they, they attacked that. But actually, you make a very good point. We're all on a journey. And if we didn't have those experiences in the 1st place, we wouldn't be who we are today. We had to do that to get to where we are today. And, you know, I think that without the last 20 to 30 years of what I've experienced in, in banking and then Islamic finance, I wouldn't have been able to reach the conclusion that I reach now. I wouldn't have reached the conclusion that I think Bitcoin is a halal form of money and possibly the best form of money today. I wouldn't have been able to reach the conclusion that I don't think the Islamic banks are the right way to create an economic environment which is based on social justice. You know, I wouldn't have been able to set up the company that I've set up now, which going back to your point about Mudaraba earlier, which is a form of investment management agreement. It's a sort of financing technique that aligns investors and investees and has a symmetric relationship, a partnership between financiers and companies rather than an asymmetric relationship, which is what the bankers and the borrowers have. And these were all essential learning experiences for me to get to where I've got to. And without them, I wouldn't have been able to do what I do now. So I'm with you. I think that's a mature approach. And and we mustn't, you know, we mustn't dismiss that experience that all of us have had. And we have to recognize that everybody's habit had a different experience and brings different attitudes and different culture and different values that align towards a common goal today. And if we don't accommodate those different views, then that doesn't make us stronger than the sum of the parts. And I think that's really essential. It's like, you know, managing a football team, you know, you can't have everybody who's a central midfielder, you got to have some defenders and goalkeepers and centre forwards and, you know, otherwise you don't have a team. So I, I think it's really important that when we when we are building whatever project it is that we are building, we have to accommodate people from different backgrounds and diverse opinions. Otherwise, we won't strive towards excellence. Yeah, 900%. That that's that's amazing. So if you wanted to quickly sum up based on your experience of a Baker, because you have tied both, you know, and you're living pretty much sort of on a Bitcoin standard. That's how you got into Bitcoin. You mentioned didn't have a bank account. If you were to summarize to our audience, specifically the Muslims that are listening, how can Bitcoin, and I'll ask this straight up, how can it help them adhere to their moral and religious values? Like what are the components of Bitcoin or participating in the Bitcoin ecosystem that you would you know quickly on 3/4 bullet points tell them Without getting too much into the detail, I'm just curious like what are the ones that matter the most to you basically? A lot. And yeah, this is definitely a huge rabbit hole. But in general, I would say three things like 1 is just generally I've noticed and I guess this just kind of general insight is things that are halal tend to bigot things that are even more halal. So in terms of looking at Bitcoin as a money that is halal first and foremost, once you do embrace that and have like your wealth in Bitcoin or like you use Bitcoin, you start to notice that you'll have a lot of changes and they'll break it down into into three, like I mentioned. So first and foremost is your time horizon the way you kind of approach value or like life in general, you start to see that you aren't necessarily in the same rush you used to be when you were, you know, fully Fiat based, whether it comes to purchases or how you kind of just value things in terms just a purely opportunity cost standpoint. And then secondly is you start to value a lot of things in life that have to do with basic principles like family, community, mostly because now that you have a money that works, you are able to actually project some of the goodwill that you have onto the rest of the world. So whether it's looking at helping with projects that are around the world, whether it comes to charities or things like that, that traditionally wouldn't necessarily have been able to do so with existing rails. Clearly, because some of these regions maybe aren't necessarily banned or maybe are in high risk resones, quote UN quote. But now you honestly have the ability to actually engage with those communities and support them and kind of channel yourself from that purely good standpoint. And then on the last point is just self discovery and like progressing that journey of becoming a better and better Muslim because now that you're able to have this money that works, that is halal fully. And then secondly, now that you're able to engage with the world more productively in terms of how you contribute, you tend to see that the total benefit of having all of that is going to force you into a mindset of constantly seeking self reflection, constantly seeking ways in which to better yourself in terms of now they have this extent time that would have gone to, you know, the rat race, generally Fiat or just trying to kind of scrap up. Now you have a lot more time on your hands to kind of self evaluate and self reflect, which is a core component of Islam generally, whether it comes, you know, Aphelia to dubber, you know, do you know, reflect, for example. So a lot of the times is getting to that stage where you now have all the tools necessary, at least in the modern age, which is very useful and liking and generally the the world for a lot of Muslims to develop for you to really engage with the faith itself, to rediscover a relationship with the Lord. Honestly, just lead a life that is purely devoted to being a good human being and like worshiping God. Because again, part of the core components of worshiping God isn't just, you know, five times praying a day and all that, but it's also projecting all the good, all the mercy and kind of the graces that God has opportunity in your life to other people. That's amazing. Thank you for sharing that. That's really fascinating. Appreciate that. The personal view on things. Yeah, we should definitely introduce you to our buddies, the Bitcoin Measureless. They're on the other side of the world. I think you guys will have a great conversation together. So I'll make a note of that and I'll make sure to introduce you guys. I think they'll appreciate what you're working on and you'll appreciate what they're working on. I'm sure there's a way for you guys to collaborate. Before I turn it over to Harris, I had one quick question because you are based in Nigeria, correct? And there was this push for forcing people into central bank digital currencies. And then I have to ask that because you're not every day like someone from Nigeria on the podcast. Fair enough. Yeah. And, you know, it seemed like the Nigerian people revolted and said no, and then they kept using more and more Bitcoin. Is that really what happened? And maybe you can shed some light on that for our view because this is, you know, once in a blue moon chance to really understand what happened on the ground from a bitcoiner. No, for sure, happy to get into that. Like just briefly, without getting into all the crazy things we've experienced the last couple years. I think part of the reasons why it didn't pan out the way they felt it would is because of the rollout. Like they had a hard time kind of convincing people that this isn't Bitcoin, this isn't crypto, but yes, it's also digital, but it's not crypto. And a lot of people were like, OK, first and foremost, like, and now is not a good performing currency to begin with. We have like crazy inflation, all of that. So for a lot of people was like, why would I get into another version of now, which clearly from the way we're talking is an entirely different narrow from the current ones we have with this digital and the physical one. What are the benefits? And honestly, that was a question that still remains unanswered on the ground. They've tried to kind of reinvent the E narrow. They had like a new version too that they launched recently, which honestly they're just launching it for themselves at this point because people since the launch till date have understood that the currencies that actually work for them is Bitcoin and now increasing the USD T because again, cheap access to USD, who doesn't want that? So a lot of it has been people not necessarily going out in the streets and saying Enera is rubbish and Bitcoin is better, but they're voting with the way they live their lives and the way they are living their lives is not going to the Nara or the Enera is going towards Bitcoin, USDT and some of these other, I guess, currencies that allow for them to actually live a productive and healthy life. So a lot of it honestly is just the fact that this has had pretty much no, I guess, adoption to the level that they thought they would. And a lot of the central bankers around the world that point to Nigeria is like a success of the CBD CS. I think they're also right in the sense that just looking at it purely from how a lot of these things evolve in terms of having the money that already doesn't work and then having a different version of this stopping, you know, digital currencies on top of that, it's not going to work. So it's definitely, it's definitely true that it is a success in the sense that they've managed to push it out. And the success on our end is that we've seen that there's no way that the state can enforce some money that doesn't work for the people on top of the people, especially when there are alternatives like Bitcoin. So I see that's how you sum up exactly what were happening, what's happening here in Nigeria. It's just that people have seen this doesn't work and Bitcoin does. So it's like, what do you want me to do? Lots of respect for the Nigerian people standing strong. I mean, on the topic of CBDCS, And before I turn it over, sorry, since we're on this real fast, I mean if Fiat is Haram, I would think CBDC's are hyper Haram just because of their programmability, right? And what they can do. I don't know what your thoughts on is on that, but what do you think about that before I turn it over to Axe? I think that has been probably the best summation I've heard. And if we want to take it even further, we'll say if you do get on to the ER, it's essentially like subscribing to Haram Plus, but you get all the benefits of non fungible money just to go with it for your troubles. I love that. Yeah, I had to put that out there. I'm sorry. All good, Ron now. Listen, tell us about what projects you're working on right now. What's happening? So honestly, a lot of my time, other than like talking to folks and like educating and doing some of the dev journey dev work, like training programs, a lot of it right now has been focused on kind of looking at the ecosystem and plugging in some of the differences we've seen over the last 2-3 years in terms of what's missing, what we need to build on. So that looks like mostly 33 buckets. So on the venture side, I've seen an increase in terms of some of the companies that are coming out that are really, really early stage, but they're not yet investable. So a lot of the work is then getting them to that stage where they are investable. So you have this like informal process that we're trying to standardize and kind of formalize and make it a lot more public for people to kind of apply, get a more systemized way of getting to idea all the way up to investable and then having all that hand holding on our end. And then separately, when it comes to some of the work around the Bitcoin development ecosystem, generally that has to do with the work we're doing with B trust, where we're only increasing kind of the grants we're giving out. But also the the types and levels of grants that we're giving out. Whether it's a starter grants getting six months fairly paid in Bitcoin monthly, having them work on a specific nation of Bitcoin ecosystem that they could leverage. And then have long term support, which goes into the Bitcoin open source cohort that we have where it's more long term focused in terms of support, they get paired with mentors. Now we're just trying to build this general kind of community field to that. So a lot of the 10 people that are getting involved are like open source development. The issue is like it's a very lonely journey and SME team journey. So for us, we're trying to create this kind of camaraderie and collaborative ecosystem of just like builders that are focused on that. And other than like the general grants and some of the approach that we have there, a lot of the work is also focused on funding some of these projects that are doing specifically Bitcoin development and Bitcoin specifically Bitcoin developer education. And a lot of that is looking at, OK, we do have our internal project, our internal program, which is, you know, you trust builders that is exclusive for Africa. We're also looking at the general ecosystem when it comes to this part of the world where Bitcoin development isn't necessarily at the same level as maybe Europe or North America. Looking at what are some of these projects that are are one aligned with like exclusively being Bitcoin only, but also allowing for this general long term view of understanding what it takes to get from zero to hero and some of the ways in which they can leverage the existing developer ecosystem. So supporting a lot of those projects like Pichala, the very Satoshi Vintium, for example, some of the others, and I think on the last point is really looking at having a larger push when it comes to just research UX design. And this is just more on a personal level before it kind of cascades into the investments that were recursive or doing the work with B trust and is generally looking at this. So if we're saying that Bitcoin is going to thrive in this part of the world purely because of the issues that we see and honestly the need that is a lot more pertinent or I guess put in compared to other parts of the world. Then naturally, it means that a lot of the UX research or sorry, user interface research or kind of the development of products and services will be kind of very necessary for people to look to as like an example to follow in other parts of the world for them to be able to put this in. And part of that is looking at ways in which we can impart designers on the ground and UX researchers to make sure that all these things that we're building are being built in the best version possible and all the learnings that we have are documented for the rest of the world. So I say those three are kind of the main focus around and generally the products that I'm involved with are kind of a consequence of just the way I'm thinking about it from those 3 standpoints. Yeah, that's interesting because something I noticed about technology and fintech in general when I was working on on creating various accelerators and incubators a few years ago was we thought that we in the UK, you know, we're apparently very sophisticated and modern and developed and all this kind of stuff. But I travelled over to Pakistan to see some of the fintech incubators of tech incubators out there and I thought it was amazing, far better than what we were doing in the UK. And I think what's fascinating about Bitcoin and other forms of fintech is you don't have to be in the US or the UK or Germany. You can do this stuff from anywhere in the world, which means that, you know, you could have a South Asian country or an African country on an equal foot footing to, you know, a start up doing this kind of work in, you know, Germany or the US or the UK. And I think that's an extremely positive development. 100% And to your point, I think the way to capture that is at least the way we're looking at it and kind of something that came up recently with conversations with like Michael from on Rapid General, this Bitcoin is the real Fintech. And to your point about like not necessarily having to leave your current locale to kind of contribute to development, I think Bitcoin as being, you know, the real Fintech allows for people to localize the the opportunity space really for them to innovate and, and allow for that to kind of prosper. So things definitely an interesting aspect to the wider kind of shift that Bitcoin has allowed for in a lot of these regions. So it's definitely interesting to see people building up on that. And I think it's going to be one of the reasons why this part of the world will need the development of Bitcoin in general. That's amazing. And any specific projects that are more tied and focused on, you know, your religious beliefs, something to help fix Islamic finance using Bitcoin? I'm just curious, I know most of the things, you know, being built on Bitcoin, being built on sound money, but is there a focus to specifically target helping, you know, maybe Islamic banks or some form of fintech to, you know, make sure Muslims who are involved with the product or the solution feel comfortable knowing that it's built on sound money principles? Is that something you're looking to do or are actively working on? I mean, I'm not actively working on this personally, but I'm actively engaged with those who are working on this. Like some of them are pretty stealth. But what I can generally share is the conversation we had earlier on allowing for individuals to have the ability to get access to loans that are purely on the ethical side in terms of just not having any, any notion of riba. So people are actively working on getting that to the stage where it's mature enough and stable enough for people to actually engage. Because obviously you don't want to bring people on to something that's unstable, which generally is the case. A lot of these leading edge technologies that are built on top of Bitcoin. So I see a majority of that is to that. To that end, I see the other things that are pretty interesting to see, which I've been, you know, lucky to have been involved with some of these conversations is mostly around some of the sovereign wealth funds, mostly like around the Gulf and some of these other regions that are just looking to reorient again themselves and kind of open up some of the opportunities that they're exploring on the investment side strictly with the with the end goal of having increased sovereignty like or energy abundance. And that ties into the mining question as well. And we've seen some of that with not getting into some of the conversations specifically, but we have seen some more positive drives from folks and governments across just not Nigeria, but other parts of Africa as well. Looking at it from the standpoint of, OK, we want to maybe have a more sustainable way in which we're approaching debt servicing, is Bitcoin an Ave. for us to explore that? Or looking at, OK, we want to engage in some more green energy production and grid management. Is Bitcoin able to do that? Obviously with bigger mining it is. So those conversations on some of the products and services are to do with again, those aspects, whether it comes to on the ethical loan side or sovereign wealth fund management or just great infrastructure management or just energy production. So I think that'll be very fascinating for people to watch and keep an eye on from now until like the next five years, I think is going to become the gold standard for how we approach that next phase of getting into a more allowed life. That's so interesting. I mean, once they're no longer stealth, we definitely appreciate introduction because that's something we'd like to learn more about, kind of understand how they're doing it, the framework. I think that'll be quite interesting. I mean from my end, Abu Baker, I really appreciate your time. Harris, I don't know if you have any other questions. Likewise, it's a great conversation. Abu Baker, I really enjoy hearing from you. And that last point, by the way, is super fascinating. Where can we keep in touch with you and learn more as it becomes less stealth and more public? So I'm mostly pretty active on X such Twitter as well as noster. My username is I hate 1990 and both and for those who are looking for more long form content, I do write on for social assets. So I pretty much document a lot of these things and the moment things are out of stealth or like allowed to be publicly disclosed, I mostly do document that. So keep an eye out on those forms. I'd say thank. You amazing and we'll make sure to include all of that information if you have certain things specifically that you'd like to put out so we can share that around, we'll put in the description and we can have a conversation through e-mail just to get that ready. Well, thank you. So much for your time, Harris, always a pleasure. And Abu Baker, we really appreciate you taking the time. I know you've been traveling a lot and you're kind of all over the you're wearing even a Bitcoin Amsterdam, if I can read that correctly. So yeah, yeah, yeah. Evidence of your travel right there. But yeah, thank you so much for your time. Thanks so much for having me guys. Really appreciate the combo and it's always a pleasure. Harris and Ralph to Abu Combo. Thanks for listening, if you found the content valuable, please make sure to share with a friend and subscribe on your favorite podcast platform. Before we finish, a quick reminder that the content provided is for informational and entertainment purposes only, and nothing should be construed as investment or legal advice, regardless of where you are on your Bitcoin journey. We'd love to hear from you. Onrap Mina com Schedule a consultation.
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