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What you're telling me is that music is about to stop and we're going to be left holding the biggest bag of odorous extra ever assembled in the history of darkness. 1974198792972000 and whatever we want to call this, it's all just the same thing over and over. We can't help ourselves. I say when we sell. Hey, OK. I say when we sell. We are back. Oh God. We are back. We are back in the 80s. Actually, we're back in the 80s. Don't say that. We had high hopes last week, but once again, we've been let down by the Bitcoin price and this week we don't have any special guests. The special guest is your three favorite hosts. I'm joined by Brian and Michael. Gentlemen, good to see you. What's going on? How's the week been? It's going good. We've we've heard the feedback. We know people enjoy the, the, the threesomes once in a while. So we're going to, you know, try to do that more frequently. And Jackson, you know, he's a little more energetic to start the pod because we were talking about, you know, the need for new listeners coming in. We don't want to start soft. We don't want to start with the prices in 80 KS. Look, we know where we're going. We need to make sure everyone knows where we're going so they know how to safely pack their bags. So we're just going to, we're going to level up. We're just going to level up across the board. Maybe we'll get Larry Fink on the pod. Maybe we'll give away a bit. No Larry's. Coming. No, we're not getting. We're getting. We're getting. Larry. No, no. No, no, the new. The new can give away leader. But we can give away a Bitcoin, y'all are good with that one so. Look, Michael, I I just want the listeners to know that every week, almost every week, they try to give me some sort of pep talk and I don't know what the point of it is, to be honest. You can let me know in the comments, am I fired up enough for you or am I not? But let the listeners decide. But we just. Get concern for Jackson. We just get concern for Jackson. We just get concern for Jackson like the market is volatile, this business is volatile. Pull up the gold chart. Get. This get this Bitcoin chart out of here. Pull up. Yeah, let's look at gold. Let's. Make. Let's just look at the. Gold, you know. That's where we're headed, the gold chart tells us. Tells us the path. I'm going to be on Roxim's deal later and then I'm doing an investor presentation and and one of the things I want to call out is Bitcoins. The best savings technology on ramp offers the best savings account because you still have to harness that, but then liking it back to effectively geopolitical and all the risks that's going on. And then looking at gold and just saying gold, Bitcoin is gold with wings. And the difference between gold and Bitcoin is you have 5010 thousand years of history, but you get to pay for that history in its upside in Bitcoin. And so I think like the point being is this is something I was noodling on before this. But what you're saying is like, we should be so excited about what's happening with precious metals and hard assets because it's not if it's just when this act eventually doesn't have to leak from gold either. I don't know why people say that. It literally just is the same thesis played out on a different scale with different asymmetric understanding, and it will eventually be understood. And when that happens, as our friend Evie K likes to say, make sure to wear your diapers. It's very, you know, I've seen a lot of short term thinking over the past weeks and months related to what you're just describing where people are saying, oh, you know, Bitcoin is underperforming gold. It's, you know, down 50% against gold over the past 12 months. But that is really just like a symptom of, of looking at a short time frame. Like if you zoom out any farther than that, then bitcoins outperform gold. And you know, what happens after a period of short term underperformance is then people try to ascribe reasons for the underperformance. So you have the Nick Carter's of the world saying, oh, the the quote UN quote mysterious underperformance is due to quantum breaking Bitcoin. Like that is, that is his thesis and that is his thinking, but it's just it's rooted in a short term view of 12 months of underperformance when if you just zoom out any farther than that, like that's not what's going on. Can I give a real spicy take? Is there was the way it was going to come from was a you get to find out really who what people are about or what they care about in what you just described, because it goes back to the digital asset treasury deal is it's like if you didn't really care about the underlying and understand its properties, but why would you go and probably get and promote this in the same way that do you care about Bitcoin winning? Do you care about sound money proliferating and rebuilding a world and so then the the next thought would be well, gold can't do this because it's already been proven that it hasn't and I would make the case of Bitcoin doesn't it didn't exist. Theoretically, you could actually run back a gold standard and the reason why this is what safe attempted to do. Still haven't read it. Read maybe the first couple pages of the gold standard is you would create different levels of transportation to net settle the gold. But more importantly is now with stable coins, you would be able to net settle payments and you could go back to like a free banking style, especially with the gold price rising because now you have a different safe haven sovereign asset. So anyway, the point being is like what do people want? Because gold, doing what it's doing, you can make the case is actually more valuable in the short term than Bitcoin's price going up, you know, by like a 10% or whatever. Because just in the past day it's gone up like $2 trillion in market cap goals, $33 trillion. It's an insane proposition for I think in November it was only 22 trillion. So it's gone up like 20% or 25%. So anyway, I don't know if I'm going to articulate it in the best way, but it's just like, what do people actually care about and what are they looking for? And if they're looking for like like these short term games so they can get more dollars or trade as another asset, well, it's a different lens than looking at it as repricing everything else. Yeah, it's it's gold. Gold running is validating the thesis that the money is broken, right? And and gold as a asset with an extremely long track record relative to Bitcoin, it's logical that it would move first. And it's also coming from sovereigns and central banks who are much more comfortable and familiar with gold. So it's, and it's also just larger so it can it can accommodate those types of massive flows easier than than Bitcoin can. And so it makes total sense. And if you do have a long term fundamental thesis on Bitcoin, like you understand that that is a creative to the thesis that more people, whether it's central banks, Oregon individuals are understanding that the Fiat debasement train is not is not stopping anytime soon. And and you need to protect yourself with with scarce assets, sound money. And the reality on the ground is that most, the vast, vast majority of humans on earth have no understanding of what Bitcoin is. They can played it with crypto. They think it's a trade, they think it's levered NASDAQ exposure. Most people don't really think of it as, as you described, gold with wings. Most people are not there yet. So they see the a short term underperformance. They they go the, the it's broken. It's it's not doing what it's supposed to do. Real, real quick Jackson before pumping this is I think it's also just really quickly worth calling out. This is why you have to be careful who you follow and listen to because ultimately, if you go back 12 months ago, everyone that was an influencer following the space was calling for Bitcoin to surpass gold at X market cap and dollar price. And this notion that Brian referenced like there is Bitcoin is a risk asset for the the majority of the world, all of the world effectively, and it is a risk off asset. Gold is a risk off asset. Like that doesn't happen overnight. And for anybody to assume that was ever going to happen and as people propagate, that makes zero sense. And if you take it a step further, anybody can hold any amount of gold in their house. It doesn't mean they should because they have to live their life. They have to put their kids through college and they don't want people breaking in to go rob them, kill them, kidnap them. But for some reason, everyone else in this space says the other side that it will bypass it. And you can just, you know, sing kumbaya, hold the device, and you'll be OK. And it's just really crazy. So anyway, it's just more calling that out because nobody in the Bitcoin space would've been like, oh, gold's going to do this. It's like, of course it's going to do this because not only are we increasing the amount of dollars, but as people and sovereigns need to go into a sound asset, they're going to go into the most liquid asset available to them, which is gold. It's not Bitcoin. Over time that will be the case, but there's an order of operations to this. By the way, that's the opportunity like that is that is the essence of why you should be excited about buying Bitcoin today is because most people don't understand what you just said. But if you just think about the concrete monetary properties of the asset, it will follow, It will follow suit as more people understand what's happening here. And sorry Jackson, I know you're ready to roll. Jackson wants to talk about the lizards in Davos, and we got to go. And because Jackson loves love these topics here. I mean, look, all the influencers ought to be more polished, but they're all wrong and they don't know what they're talking about. And we're going to take a look at we're going to take a look at one of these classic tweets. All caps Coinbase CEO absolutely destroyed French central bank governor who said he doesn't trust Bitcoin. This is a must watch. So let's see. Bitcoin doesn't have a money printer. The the supply is fixed and people will go to it in times of uncertainty. Kind of like they did with gold. Sorry to say that I trust more independent central banks with a democratic mandate than private issuers of Bitcoin, which have a very useful role. But Bitcoin is the. Decentralized protocol, there's actually no issuer of it. So that's, that's in the sense that central banks have independence. Bitcoin is even more independent. There's no country or company or individual who controls it in the world. And so anyway, I, I think it's a healthy competition because, because if people can decide which one they trust more and it, I think it's actually the greatest accountability. Bitcoin doesn't, I mean, I just love the fact that they all laughed at Brian Armstrong when he said that it's a, it's a healthy competition. They're like, what is this guy talking about? But yeah, I mean, gentlemen, what do you guys think of this clip? I have my own thoughts, but we can let's let's hand it over to Michael. He's very eager to say something. We'll see. We'll see if it's insightful or not. I think there's a meta. It's like a, it's just like this nice humiliation ritual because I think, you know, Brian probably believes what he believes and whoever the Klaus Schwab representative of, of the year, you know, with his accent and, and his Talesh. Is out. Klaus is out, by the way. It's it's. Larry Fink is the head of the World Economic Forum. Oh, I didn't. Actually, I didn't know that he's the head of it. That's. Hilarious. Yeah. I think that it's going to be, this is going to be a theme because we're going to talk a little bit about there was some stuff in the Netherlands and the craziness and well, taxes in California that I think like when you get to the mid level, senior level of these organizations and these sovereigns, they believe these things like you need a bank, you need a central bank. But like the people, there's people way smarter and greater positions that understand that's not the case. And we like have an unsustainable debt situation and people a lot for other currencies like they know this. But when you go up and and have to pander to the people that attend these things, you have to have this kind of discourse. And you need Brian to be on his side saying the things that the Bitcoiners want to hear. And what I think he believes, I think he they're both like puppets effectively. And then on the other side. But yeah, of course, like it makes sense and, and it is a healthy competition because, you know, the, the old joke Parker's really coined is like if you ask a 5 year old, you know, would you rather have a, a, a unit or whatever that only has X amount of finite supplier, Would you rather have one that's infinite? Nobody would pick the infinite except for a central banker. So like, this is just the thesis of Bitcoin playing out. So yeah. Yeah, I mean, Armstrong gets a lot of shit and and part of it's probably warranted. I mean, he runs a a crypto casino. But every now and again he does have these these sound bites that are pretty effective. He he to your point, like he definitely understands Bitcoin and he's a smart guy. And to your point, like in that scenario, in that environment, he kind of needs to to speak in a certain way. But I think he did a great job there. And it's also just fascinating that, you know, he's describing it as a healthy competition. You would think that the central bankers would know at least they're in some sort of competition and, and at least understand that there's no issuer of Bitcoin like that. You can see Brian's face when he's saying like, you know, he's talking about the, the private issuers of Bitcoin. Like Brian gets like excited, like he's ready for the dunk to be like, there's no, there's no fucking issuer, dude. I, I would, I would, I'd be curious, Jackson, your thoughts on this. I would push back on like directionally, right? But I don't think I, I truly believe Bryan Alfred doesn't understand Bitcoin. If he understood Bitcoin, you know, outside of 21 million and yes, it's better than a dollar, he wouldn't build what he's building today because he'd be building something completely different. He would have been stacking Bitcoin for a long time versus the past few years. But then the other side of that is I don't, I genuinely believe they don't think that they have competition because it's not about the money per SE. It's about the convenience and inner entanglement when it comes to how do you go to the doctor in the future if you don't have an application that gives you an ID that's tied to the, you know, local currency, That's how you pay and you're pegged into it. Like we've seen this already play out that it's not even about like a better form of money for a lot of people. It's about what is the most convenient way for them to interact in in that world. I'm not saying it's right. I'm not saying it's going to win long term, but in their world, they look at like the walls depend Opticon they've created and the things that they will, the levers that they have to get people to take the bad form of money. And they don't actually believe there's a competition because for the vast majority of people without agency, they rather just go to the thing that like they were told to go to. So I don't think they really believe there's a there's a competition. Like, I mean, I think their reaction says it all. They they laugh at him when they say exactly. I mean they, they obviously don't think there's any competition. And I think that is, unfortunately for us, still a representation of most people. Remember Cam on a call earlier this week was talking about like a buddy he caught up with. And most people, they're just like, their eyes glaze over when you talk about Bitcoin. So the fact that Brian Armstrong is talking in Davos about Bitcoin being a competition to Fiat currencies and they're all laughing at him is actually what most people think of us who own Bitcoin and build Bitcoin businesses. And so that, if anything, is a testament to how early it is because like any new technology, you're going to be discredited by people, you're going to be slandered by people. But if you're right, then you just say the course and ultimately, time will prove that you're right. And so, I mean, I just think that, look, these are economists. They grew up in this system and they think that Fiat currency is the best currency option available and it solves the problems. I mean, I genuinely think that most people believe that. Of course there's going to be some percentage of people who are truly malicious actors, but I think most people just think that they're doing the right thing. This is what's best for people. Inflation needs to exist because it's good for you and it stimulates the economy. And I just think that we're laughing stock still. So you know it's going to be that way for a a little bit longer, unfortunately. It's worth calling out though, You know, I think gold surpassed M1 at least or like base money for most central bank reserves. And so there is a reality that like we're not like even objectively wrong in the sense that sound money is things that sovereigns and people want. Gold and Bitcoin are very close to each other. So it's like, not an insane proposition, but to your point, it's still laughable by most. I do think the thing that really opened Pandora's box in my mind to just a realization that the institutions of powers that be do not hold any real credibility is after COVID, right? Because there's a lot of things and ramifications that were probably put in place for various reasons. But the one thing that you can ever take back is once people had a bunch of time on their hands, they've got to realize that the institutions that have existed to their whole lives actually have no real idea of what they're doing in various degrees of this. I don't think anybody's come out of 21 and in 2021 to believe that they're just infallible and absolutely perfect. And so to your point, when you hear economist today, it's like, what do you mean? Like it's that it's that jokable like you would. And I'd rather like to have a kid to be a painter, an artist than an economist like, because at least he's going to do something of value. Somebody may enjoy it. But if you're like sitting behind closed doors pretending with, you know, being counting how you can like manipulate A sovereign, it just we know it doesn't work. So. All right, it's 2020. 6:00 And we have a new year ahead of us. That means it's a great time. It is an opportunity to take inventory, think about your Bitcoin custody, your inheritance plan, your broader ownership structure, and your goals. If you're looking for more Peace of Mind this year, get in touch with us here at On Ramp. We're working with individuals all over the world, people who've been in Bitcoin for a decade, people who got in for the first time last year. We're working with individuals who use self custody and have done so for a number of years or even over a decade. And likewise, we're working with people who never felt comfortable with self custody and have Bitcoin on an exchange. Either way, get in touch with us here at onramp. We have a private client type approach to our relationships. You have a dedicated account manager, always human support, multi institution custody with inheritance included, an IRA account included as well at no additional cost, access to Bitcoin back loans, insurances included, trading capabilities as well. And for a limited time if you use the code TLT, you'll get 50% off your first month with on ramp. Now I will say it may be worth having a conversation. So when you speak with me or speak with someone and book that consultation on our home page, you can just mention you heard of us through the last trade mentioned TLT, and we'll still take care of that if you sign up. So hope you enjoy the rest of the episode. Thanks for being here. Yeah, I I totally agree with that. And but also, Michael, the the sovereigns that are accumulating gold are also at odds with the Davos crowd, right. So the Davos crowd still has their perception that the euro, the dollar, like these are the dominant monetary rails. And then the anti Davos crowd, China, Russia, excetera, they're the ones that are accumulating gold. I mean, even Eastern European countries as well that aren't like in the, you know, the, the EU, these are countries that are actually getting ahead and the, and the Emirates, you know, GCC as well. Yeah, 100%. Maybe that ties into the the Ken Griffin clip because what reminds me of before this run, remember when we had Josh Fair, which we should probably get back on that runs, the Wyoming Scottsdale met and he was the the way he got on our radar. He was on Twitter like on planes or had video footage of all the planes that were bringing gold back to the United States before this RIP happened. And so to the point of like this RIP was allowed to happen in gold because everyone already had figured out their positions and brought it back home. And I think that's the big lens that Citadel and these other guys are looking at. It's like the debt is unsustainable. Counterparty risk is going to matter as as much if not most today. And anyway, when you pull that clip up, I think it's it's a good indication of that. Or do I I? Did not know, I did not know that Larry is the head of head of this. First of all, it's a It's a pleasure to be on the gloom and doom panel, yeah. We're not. We're. Not that good you. Know the 1920s were an extraordinary period. As I said at the beginning, it's not preordained, but it has the end note of the 1920s, which was of course the Great Depression, Andrew. So let's, let's take a step back and, and talk about where we are right here, right now. The, the area of recklessness is the, is the spending of governments around the world who are all, with with little exception, all spending well beyond their means. That's the recklessness of this moment in history. This is not a parallel to the 1920s in terms of the recklessness of the, of the private capital markets. It's a story of the recklessness of government spending within the private sector. There's a huge question as to where AI will take us. And I, I was carefully taking notes and listening to what Larry has to say or to what has to say because this is one of the big issues of our moment. Will AI create the productivity acceleration that is honestly this hoped for in Washington and in the halls of government around the world as a ways to overcome the profit spending that we're currently engaged in? Like the world, the world needs a savior, and the hope is that AI is the same. So the Hail Mary, that's that was what I was trying to get to everyone's admitted that the debt is unsustainable and the Hail Mary is AI, which is no Hail Mary because we all understand from first principles, if you get rid of anybody's, you know, ability to need to work well, that causes you can reduce. These people are just repulsive. He's like, that's my take. They're just like disgusting human beings. And I, I would love to be more vulgar, but I'll, I'll, I'll curtail myself. The point being is like, all the sudden these people are trying to act philanthropic and say, oh, this is, this is a bad situation. This is so bad for all of us and we need to make sure we fix it. Listen, since 2008, I mean, you could obviously make the case much longer that, but since 2008, Wall Street has just been absolutely with the federal government in the central banks, of course, have just been totally pillaging the rest of the world. I mean, there's no other way to put it, to put it between the monetary policy, the fiscal policy of the past almost 20 years have just totally destroyed any sort of American dream that exists. They have done so without any sort of, we are any remorse at all. And so all of a sudden now there's this concern of the debt. Well, central banks have been monetizing government balance sheets for decades now. And it was never a problem. Oh, we didn't have a problem with 0 interest rate policy. We didn't have a problem with inflating all the assets in the world possible. But now all of a sudden, now that the, the debt is on everyone's minds, we have to pretend like this is a problem that first of all, it doesn't really impact them all that much that impacts everyone else. But this is, it's just, I think incredibly frustrating, especially I, I just want to go on record and say that like Larry Fink as an example, everyone embraced him all of a sudden, just because he has Bitcoin products, which is fine. Like that's, that's the natural path that all these firms will go down and they have to embrace Bitcoin. But these people are not your friends and they don't have your best interest in mind. It's that simple. Brian was doing the editing early on, so he's probably one of the the few that knows that these receipts are corrected unless somebody was listening. I remember specifically, this was 23 summer when this business launched and now everyone was on, you know, the Larry Fink bandwagon. It's like, guys, this is just where the ASG was trying to get like put in the corner in the closet. And you look at what they represent and the notion of tokenizing the world and and disintermediating people from ownership. And you're like, this only is One Direction. Like this is just a trade. And to your point, Jackson, it actually is pretty disgusting because it's like the equivalent of a firefighter, you know, saying that the fire is going to burn down the city and then they're lighting it and they need to sell you like the water to do it is because like all these companies made all their money from this monetary policy in the amount of debt and destruction of capital. But people don't understand that. So when they listen to them, it sounds so like prophetic and altruistic and we're going to fix this and AI is going to do it. And it's like they're just setting up the the the the pain point or the problem to like offer some solution that's not going to benefit anybody. Yeah, and and so just go a little deeper on like the Hail Mary aspect of AI productivity. It it's wrong in multiple ways. The first way it's wrong is like, OK, if there is a quote UN quote productivity miracle, lots of jobs get to play displaced people can't earn living wages. They need to then basically print money to allow people to live. So some form of Ubi occurs. So this this deflationary boom is going to be met with insane monetary and fiscal policy as a result. And then on the other side, if it doesn't come to fruition, then like the stock market's going to implode because like 50 to 70% of the sort of growth or strength of the S&P and NASDAQ over the past year is, is all interrelated with AI companies or, or companies servicing AI companies. And we've talked about sort of the circular nature of a lot of that spend a lot of those forecasts. And you know, open AI is like, you know, I think they, they internally announced a code red in December. And I forget, I saw something on on Twitter yesterday that was like, they have maybe a year or two of like runway before they're just like totally out of money. So they they're going to need to do another raise unless they can basically find AGI in the next 6 months. Yeah, the Hail Mary doesn't exist. Like there is no Hail Mary. Like it's a false construct of you can grow your way out of the debt when there's a certain amount of debt. Meaning like the easiest, I would like to go back to the micro example is like if I have a bunch of debt on credit cards and then my job is paying $50,000 and you know, the debt ratio is way off and the interest in juice is going, but then I go get a, a raise and get to 100,000. Well, then I can grow myself out of that. But once you're at a certain level and then you're ultimately like the, in the same analogy, the the savior is the thing that kills my job. So I still have the debt, but I don't have the actual job to pay off any of it. And why what I think is the most important here? Because we talked with a lot of folks like we, we, we joke in the beginning, but we truly do have very big plans and ambitions to offer services globally to different segments of the market to help protect against this. Because it really is an important function for people to everyone to have exposure to BTC in the best form. So you can use it if you need it. And it comes up very often about like this predisposition or presupposition of that's the right word of like the ETFs will own all the Bitcoin because that's just how everyone's going to do it. It's like that makes zero sense. In the same way that nobody will spend the Bitcoin in a hyperinflationary event where Bitcoins running and nobody wants to spend it, right? We obviously know that's not true because, you know, people need to spend their Bitcoin, need to eat. But the point being is in this world you're describing where they have to print more dollars, they have to increasingly print more dollars. People start to recognize the dollars value is worth less and less people will demand Bitcoin for goods and services. And it doesn't even have to be some like ideological thing. It could be because your bank account is being seized. It could be because the AI and other applications are embedding. At point being is you can't do any of that if you own a paper wrapper. And that's just going to become more and more understood by the market. And so we're just still so early, but that's just something to think about because there's all these examples we're talking about is like why you don't want Larry Fink wrapping and, you know, putting a paper wrap around your Bitcoin. And I don't think it's like rocket science. So that where that eventually gets understood by the market because you're just going to naturally need to use this underlying asset. Yeah. And I would add as well that nobody knows what they're talking about, especially at Davos, right? And so I, I feel like it's still under appreciated just how how many different converging forces there are from a macro scale. Like we have no idea what the next 10 or 20 years will look like based on the disruption from technology. I mean, we're all using it every day now and we're using it more and more. And it's incredible what you can accomplish with these different tools. And so the workforce is going to look totally different than it does today, probably in five years and then in 10, right? And then how do you pair that disruption with labor markets with asset prices? And how do you think about a monetary reordering where you're seeing gold add like $20 trillion to its market cap in probably 12 to 18 months? And then where does Bitcoin fit into that? So, like, I don't really think anyone knows what they're talking about, you know, let alone myself. But even just like people in this space and then people in Wall Street, Davos, everyone's trying to make their best guess. Everyone's trying to portray whatever's in their best interest, of course. But yeah, man, it's, it's a crazy time out there. I ultimately think that we'll get out, get out on the other side of this, but I don't know what the next decade's going to look like. Yeah, I think one of the biggest, and this is something we stumbled on during these conversations, lies we were told, is there such thing as a risk free rate? Because when you look at like how you evaluate public private companies, you're looking at this like risk free rate, time value, money, DCF, you're like trying to establish based on something. But there is no risk free rate. Like there is no, there's no such thing as risk free, right. And so the only thing you can really do is go back to first principles and reason. Will you want to not get knocked out of the game if something bad happens, IE bank says your money's not yours, right? You just start to go through these things. And to your point, Jackson, it's like, well, there's a lot of uncertainty in the purpose of money was to provide certainty in an uncertain world. And but the money doesn't do that anymore. And so anyway, like to your point, we don't necessarily know the future, but you do know that you want to protect yourself. And so maybe just pulling it up because this is kind of on this theme before going to the gold stuff is I just saw this. I don't know how how real it is. I mean, I, I saw some other folks talking about it, but it's effectively Netherlands. There's a Bitcoin used putting out Netherlands to tax on realized Bitcoin gains. What really caught my eye here was because MDK had done a quote tweet that was it's really about the farmland because this isn't really just Bitcoin. This is basically for any asset on an annualized basis, you're going to look at the gains and have a tax. I think Canada is something quasi like this already. When I talked to prospective clients around if they're ever going to sell any Bitcoin, they have to basically have those taxes like within 30 days. So you basically have to plan for any sales before. And then this ties into a lot of the discussion. I would highly encourage if anybody didn't listen to All in last week, because there's a really important segment around the severity of what's happening in California. Because this, this feels like it's not a matter of if it's when, whether it's this next bill or the next couple years that it's, it's effectively this, it's not inequality. It's like it's not even incongruent. It's traditionally like income taxes or property taxes. They are congruent and across the board, independent of somebody's socio economic background wealth. It's just one flat tax. You sign up for it or you don't, you know, property taxes in Texas, you got to deal with income tax in California and New York City got to deal with, you know, it's there, but you make the decision and you can be there. This is just a retroactive choice to pick certain segments of the market to start with. And just tax them for whatever they want. And the realization is that's why a lot of people have left. And so I think we're going to start to see this across the world. The problem is that again, like the 2D view is like, oh, these people are incompetent. I, I don't think it's incompetence. I think this is structural decline because when people leave in these assets and companies end up insolvent or distressed, who gets to go in there and basically own Netherlands and you know, microchips or whatever they produce and who gets to own all the pristine value that sits in California? Like I didn't there's, there's a lot happening here. And then I think this basically ties into the other part, which is gold, because when you have wealth being destroyed and you are trying to, you know, traditionally invest in, you know, 6040, depending on what size and whatever jurisdiction you're buying equities or you're buying whatever your sovereign bonds are. This gets really hard to plan around something like that because you don't know the geopolitical nature of your local currency and your local sovereign equity market. Well, that's where gold starts to play in. And I think that's been that structural bed for the past 24 months. Is that like we talked to us before, Gold and Bitcoin or money? Everything else is credit. Plan accordingly. Dude and no one owns any gold either. It's true. It's just. Something nobody even holds cash. I mean, that's the crazy thing is like you go to most people and yeah, Simone, do you have any cash at home or do you have any gold? No, no one does. And so to your point, it's everyone. I mean, actually, you know, very few people are even paying attention to this right now and so most people are still allocated as if nothing's changed, right? You can go back 10 years ago and probably their portfolios look exactly the same. Actually, personally, I had some old four O 1 KS that I just like didn't look at for for years and finally got like that situated and I just had like money sitting in just garbage allocations from a long time ago and would have been way better if I didn't procrastinate that decision. But point being is like most people just have their wealth allocated said and forget it. Either they do it themselves or they do with their advisor. And there's no sort of, there's no sort of first principles thinking or I wouldn't even say that. There's just no sort of like reconsideration of well, does this still make sense? Because people are busy, they have other things most people aren't like, you know, you shouldn't have to, of course, in the 1st place manage your money. You should just be able to save. But that doesn't exist. So you have to manage your money. And so most people are just doing what they thought is prudent for the past. You know, whatever worked in the past last 50 years, but that isn't working anymore. And probably like 1% of the population actually is starting to pay attention to what might work in the next 50 years. Yeah. The other, the other thing that you made me think of is like most people don't own gold. It's not in their 6040. But the other component is like most people probably don't understand like why gold is running either. Like there, I think there's a big disconnect there in terms of, I think, you know, in addition to gold, you have silver running, you have other precious metals, rare earths running as well, companies that mine those running as well. So I think there's a natural conflation of the story around, you know, bringing a lot of manufacturing back on shore in the US. We need more rare earths. We can't be dependent on China's supply chain. So there's these other narratives that you could try to explain away gold's move without talking about the money being broken. So I think I do think that's a component as well for like the average person who's watching this happen, maybe they're paying attention to the gold price, but I don't think they're necessarily tying it to the the sort of fundamental flaws of the monetary system as as we're discussing. And what you just described is also another piece in the puzzle of why we haven't seen a Bitcoin bull run this cycle, because ultimately a bull run is when people are buying. I don't think we've ever seen when Bitcoin runs where a bunch of people are buying it. They don't know what it is like a bunch of people buy it because it's just running like that's what you do. And then you, you get that, you know, that's where the volatility comes from because a certain subset established that base. When they understand what they're holding point mean is that it hasn't happened this cycle. Like nobody was 18 and there's no pneumatic forces. It might. My instincts are that there's just a lot of accumulation happening across the board because the Jackson's point. This was something that I was thinking about like 6 months ago around. It's just a fascinating thing where anybody that looks at these markets understands that you're a sucker if you're holding bonds and they're allocating to gold and Bitcoin. But then on the other side of it, everyone else is holding bonds and thinks you're a sucker if you're holding gold and Bitcoin. And the conclusion I came to was it's this version of like we just have a top down approach to how we interact as humans with society, meaning whoever is like the people pulling the strings. And you know, in a more contextual version of that, it's a sovereign, it's an institutional allocator, research shop. Well, whenever they decide it's gold and Bitcoin, that's when everyone else is going to go, not a moment before then. So what I think is happening right now, and this is ties into some of the links when you see Trump and their family accumulating 1.5 billion and stable coins proliferating. And there's a tweet, we have a link to Besant talking about US leading. I think right now is like the plumbing's being established and there's just this like Peg, they're trying to keep these assets at because to your point, Jackson, this is all sovereign bid for gold. But once the narrative gets out there and it really takes off, which it already has, that's when you start to see all the different, the normie crowd come in. The other ETF brokerage, we see more clients start to come in. But I think we just have some time before that's in place and that's really just structural plumbing before that. Happened. I didn't actually see this. I didn't see a lot of what what we are are covering today. So I'm reacting for the first time. But yeah, I mean. It's a better pod when you don't prepare. So I like it, 'cause you just come fired up, You know, you're, you're just excited to come from the lizards. Work, you know so. But no. Anyways, Trump adds 1.4 billion in crypto related assets to family fortune since inauguration. Look, I will, I'll die on this hill. It's always just about watching what people do. It's always about their self-interest. So like it's really not that complicated. If if I could just make a Droid of myself and come out of the podcast every week, it would be the same thing. Just pay attention to what these people are doing. They have all the power, they have all the influence, they have all the money. If they are positioning themselves and they're adding wealth into the Bitcoin space and they're building companies and they're sitting on boards of companies like Trump's family is and they're hosting a conference at Mar a Lago next month. You may, you may want to pay attention because even though there's a lot of discourse and there's a lot of fun right now, at some point, to Michael's point, that will just flip it, you know, flip the script overnight seemingly. And so the, The funny thing though, is like a good amount of people will see this and be like, oh, Trump's disgusting. I'm never going to buy Bitcoin or crypto. Like it's just all a Ponzi scheme. Like, so for some people, this is continue it, continuing to reinforce their bias that I'll never touch this thing because it's a grift. And then for other people, I think if you can just remove the politics from it and recognize that all politicians are scum, maybe not all, like 99% of them are. I know there's some good, there's some good people out there. I'll, I'll, I'll acknowledge that, but like most of them are scum. Then you can kind of like remove that bias and at least know that. Just pay attention to what they're doing. It goes back to the Pelosi tracker. Like, all right, well, these people are just like printing money, trading options and buying positions. Why don't we just copy what they do? And so that was an effective strategy. So now you just take a look at some of the different things that are happening here and apply it to your own life and position yourself accordingly. I, I agree directionally with everything he just said. I, I will say it's to be fair, like what percentage of that 1.4 is X Bitcoin and what could you actually call like Grifton fraud? Well, on like shit coins, 'cause I, I think that that is a reasonable take. And I think you know this, you know, their wealth and the things that they've been involved with are not necessarily Bitcoin specific. What I think is like more relevant or more important. Do you guys remember in, I think it was April of last year, Besant did an interview, I think with Tucker Carlson where he basically said, you know, they're, they were talking about the gold price running. He was talking about basically like physical demand, like physical delivery demand increasing and why, you know, things were moving to and from vaults and it in in the next sentence, he's like Bitcoin is becoming a store of value. Gold is a store of value. It's like the US Treasury Secretary thinks Bitcoin's becoming a store of value. Like you don't think that's you don't think that's relevant like to, to what's about to happen here, regardless of what the, the near term, short term price action looks like, Like guys in this administration who, who wield massive power are viewing Bitcoin as a store of value alongside gold. Like that, that's the real signal to me. Like I, I could kind of care less about like what Trump's family is doing necessarily. Like because a lot of it is crypto stuff. Well, yeah, I mean to, to to add to those points because it's a, it's a nice also transition to the clarity Act. And I, I ran and I got a little FOMO. I saw on Twitter, I think it was last night, Thomas Pacquiao from Pub key posted like the the signal and and Pub key DC is is deafening. You know, I think we're you guys are both hinting at is there's just different data points to show where this is going. And to Jackson's point is, you know, TBD on how much is Bitcoin, how much is like crypto grift. But I think it just came out like the world liberty token is like going to do something to the UAE and then somewhere else, some other random country as our stable coin. And then to your point, the best and like this, this ties all back to, I mean, there's multiple factions, there's multiple things happening because you see this today. We talked about this on final settlement where you have like Trump's suing Jamie Dimon and JP Morgan. And then you have like BlackRock doing their thing. You have the banks right now staunchly like against this is kind of tying into what we're talking about here is that like there's market forces from the administration that need dollars to or Bitcoin to proliferate. I'm sorry, gold to proliferate and Bitcoin to increase in value. Like that's what they've signalled. And so part of that is this whole Clarity Act issue because it's understood and there there's a link worth pulling up Jackson that again, we're we're going to maybe contradict ourselves a little bit because we're saying don't listen to people at Davos, but listen to this from Bessent at Davos. And he's just highlighting how there's importance or no, this is actually David Sachs referencing there's importance to the Clarity Act because it effectively means that you just blur the line between crypto and banking and it's all the same thing, which is where this is going. And so when you look at it from a structural perspective, you need stable coins, you to proliferate, you need the banking sector to be favorable and open up access. You need Bitcoin to grow for a number of reasons. Watch what these people are doing. They're doing it in both sides from a policy perspective. And then their personal balance sheets are both showing what Jackson's point was that like this asset and this plumbing is being, you know, created increase in real time. It just doesn't reflect it yet in the price. In case you missed it. Earlier, we are offering a limited time opportunity to sign up. Use code TLT for 50% off your first month with on ramp. I just want to reiterate, stakes are high and this is an important decision to think through. So I would fully expect that you'd want to have a conversation with someone on our team to speak with Cam, myself, Michael, go to our home page, book a consultation. You can speak with us for 15 minutes, thirty minutes, no obligation beyond that. You can just ask us questions, learn about the solution. And I just want to make sure that as you as a listener, whether it's for you, your friends or family, I just want to make sure you have Peace of Mind and you feel good about this year ahead of us as it relates to Bitcoin ownership, custody and inheritance. So again, limited time offer 50% off your first month use code TLT. You can just mention that during the consultation. Or if you do end up just going direct to sign up, mention that code on the website and you'll be all set. So thanks for being here and hope you enjoy the rest of the episode. What was the link you wanted me to pull up, Michael? We won't have to pull it out, but it's online where David Sachs is in Davos with like CNBC effectively saying like he feels very strongly that the the clarity act of the bill will go through, which I think is like non consensus because most people in the industry believe there's too. It's too far apart. But I think the real take is that they will shoehorn it in because they need it to be done, however they get it done. And which that is insanely bullish for all things related to this industry because again, most people don't want to catch a falling knife. And if there's clarity from banks and other institutions that just is going to increase adoption, whether it's like turning on assets or just actually telling their clients. Last thing is the quantum shit. The quantum stuff that came out of nowhere, like late last year ties into all the things we're talking about here and like pegging the price and keeping it kind of subdued until things are in place. Because I don't think that's what's hindering people, even though they like will go out. I think I saw Nick Carter have a like find some random skier research from some random skier investment. One guy. One guy who probably. Read like I, I just want to say this, that guy probably read Nick's articles and then Nick is just retweeting it as if like that thought is, is pervasive, but it's like, no, but he probably just read what you wrote and believed it to be true. So yeah, what Brian and Michael are referring to is this right here. Some guy from Jefferies. Yeah, Christopher Wood, global head of equity strategy at investment bank Jeffries, removed Bitcoin entirely from his greed and fear model portfolio. I don't know what that would entail, the green and fear fear model portfolio, but reallocating the full 10% position of Bitcoin into physical gold and gold mining equities, that's interesting. Physical gold. And so this tweet says wondering why Bitcoin is performing underperforming gold so badly? It's because of this. Financial advisors read this kind of research and keep client allocations low or 0 because quantum computing is an existential threat. It's going to be a yoke around bitcoins neck until this gets fixed. I mean, I guess in this context, I could sort of understand it if like you're someone who doesn't know much about Bitcoin and you're considering weighing a small allocation to either Bitcoin or precious metals as part of a portfolio. And you're constantly hearing or at least seen peers on the street talk about this risk to Bitcoin that you may be more inclined to allocate to precious metals, especially after the performance that gold has had over the past couple years. I mean, people like to pretend that they're sophisticated, but I've experienced this first hand. Most people chase performance. And so when you see an asset just like RIP nonstop for years on end and you're on the sidelines, it's very hard to not want to allocate to that asset. And so I think it's just a it's a combination of bitcoins underperformance relative to gold and the fact that a lot of these have been bucketed in the same way in terms of physical gold and digital gold. I think it's natural or at least easy to put Bitcoin to the side and at least focus on gold for now. One other thing we can go for the last 10 here or, or if you guys want to go somewhere else. I I think just to call out this past week, past week or so, Goldman State, St. New York Stock Exchange, London Stock Exchange, all really just leaning in deep into the digital asset stuff, whether it's stable kind, stable coins, tokenized assets, wallets. And I just think people are sleeping on how stable coins are going to be like AI, like that narrative is going to come from a utilization and efficiency gain. Like I don't think we fully appreciate how fragmented money markets have been and how they're going to open up so much. And and the ultimate reason why I'm bringing it up is because I truly can't think of a more bullish set up for Bitcoin than stablecoins proliferating like that was when I came back on. And Jackson holds me to thinking, you know, Bitcoin. I still believe Bitcoin will go to a 500K or $1,000,000 at some point in our lives. It was. It was. Seven it was. 75750 Yeah, it was. That was a nice number. It was, yeah, it was. I think it was last year actually. But but the the realization of it is and you can probably get some real good empirical data of looking at tethers growth in the proliferation of the US dollar price of BTC. And that is just like a small microcosm of the global economy and dollar rails moving. And you start to look at every bank and every fintech and every interchange company and Visa net settling all the things related and you're opening up the plumbing for local currencies to get into stable coins and they're programmatic so you can effectively move them into Bitcoin. They open the aperture for people to understand digital assets and then over time, naturally they will realize, you know the things we know about the properties of Bitcoin and why they make it better. But I just think that that is such a huge catalyst that gets misunderstood or appreciated that stable coins, they're just going to exist for a long time. And and what I've also, I don't know if I've shared with you guys, but like I think this is also a big part of tethers long term plans around buying gold and BTC is because the recognition is that, you know, the credibility of a stable coin is effectively what it's being backed by. And over time, if treasuries and sovereign credibility erodes, you're going to need to compete as like true kind of free banking. What is the collateral of the stablecoin? And that's when you start to blend in BTC and gold, when you need to make people whole on the underline or sticking to the peg. And so, yeah, I just think that this like whole setup is very bullish for accelerating, just like all the things that we've been talking about. Because once the stablecoin rails get on, you can just graft on better form of you know, payment flows with a better money. Yeah. The other thing to call out there along those lines is like, well, if Trump gets his way and we cut rates back towards 0, those stablecoin yields are going to look a lot different perhaps in a in a year or two. And then to your point, that's where it gets really interesting around like, well, what's actually the collateral? If if maybe you have golden BTC as your collateral instead of U.S. Treasuries, maybe you can still pay a nominal yield that's more attractive than whatever the overnight rate happens to be. We have 5 minutes left of the last trade. Michael, I'll let you think of something to conjure up to talk about. I did want to call out though, just while you think of the place to wrap up here. For anyone who wants to join, we have on the 12th of February at noon Eastern, we're hosting A webinar all focused about the individual and Bitcoin financial services and how you can think about securing Bitcoin for the long haul for yourself, your family, could be for your business. A lot of these principles apply for a business as well. But this webinar is going to be focused on the individuals and at least how we kind of provide frameworks, not necessarily provide things that you must follow, but more so frameworks to think about how to manage the wealth. Because as we discussed, a lot of things are uncertain today, not, you know, only in the broader macro picture, but also as it just relates to Bitcoin. I mean, there's a lot of challenges with managing the wealth. There's the stakes are rising as the price does over time. And so we'll include in the show notes for anyone who does want to join on the 12th of February that webinar. But but Michael, what do you think? We've got a couple more minutes here. I think the the biggest thing is talk to your family and friends about this and then let's have them talk with us. And what I mean by that is most people just really don't fully appreciate there's nobody that's credible to help shepherd somebody through this. Because I think most people understand there's a big problem, the money's broken, they don't have Peace of Mind. They need somebody to talk to. And then they need solutions that are actually relevant. Because I just truly believe that's something we just completely discount is we can give people the problem, but then unless you give them a solution. And a solution sadly isn't a Ledger having your Pi leaked and telling them that 12 words can lose all their wealth. And so we want to make it easier and easier for folks that may be already comfortable with their own setup. We obviously want to talk to you if you want to think about diversification or, you know, getting access to financial services for your Bitcoin. But the reality is a lot of your friends and family want to speak to, we're making it easy by, you know, taking consultations, reducing the cost by 50% to start doing referral fees. So yeah, we want to chat. And then we have one extra vest because I have a bunch of swag we made, but we have one honor and vest. My ask is we need to get some FIRE guests. Anybody's on the table. You want Chamath, you want Trump, you want David Sachs, you want Jackson's mom, like whoever you guys want. So I'm. Sure, my mom would actually love to. Come on the podcast. That's actually a different topic that I don't think most realize that. I think all of her moms specifically listened to this podcast. It's a very avid. Look, it's a very strange thing. My only take is because like when you grow up, you don't spend as much time with your family, especially if you're like a male, I think is different than like a woman and that they like just TuneIn to get the insights. It's a very strange thing. But either way, so Jackson's mom, if she wants to join, we'd love to have you join and understand a little bit more what goes on inside his head. But on that note, if it's Jackson's mom and that gets the most likes, maybe that's who's going to come on the pot. But whoever gets the most likes next week we will call out on BE. Careful what you wish for, Michael. We are going to get. We had a few submissions from last week. People want people want Mel back. People want Mel back where? Did the submissions? Where did the submissions come in at? I saw a few on Twitter. We should get Mel Gibson on the POD. Mel Gibson, you got to reach Madison, you got to retweet these submissions. I didn't see any of them. Shit I saw. I'll send them to you guys. Yeah, I'll find them, Yeah. We'll get Mel Madison back on the pod Thick James check is coming back soon as well. And another special guest in the sort of February. But yeah, let us know Michael will personally get to the post office. He will mail the vest to you. And yeah, I mean, anything else before we wrap here. I think we did a good job on our time today. That was a great tight wrap. We got a bunch of bunch of presentations today. I think Brian's on a podcast with Robert. Yeah, Robin, Robin Sayer. Robin Sayer. I don't know when it'll drop, but probably within the next week or so. You got Roxam later broadcast with Brom. So we're going to, like we said, leveling up if anybody's interested, using the services, getting involved with what we're doing, whether it's working, we're growing the team. You have a group you want us to present to like we we're we're open for business, so reach out and we'd love to work with you. We're open for podcasting. I'll start. I'm going to start another podcast this week. All right, we'll see you guys. Later. Thanks for listening to this week's episode of the show. If you found the information valuable, please share the episode with a friend or leave a rating on your favorite podcast app. All the links we discussed in today's show will be in the show notes inside your podcast app. Before we finish, a quick reminder that Onramp Media is for informational and entertainment purposes only, and nothing should be construed as investment or legal advice. Regardless of where you are on your Bitcoin journey, we'd love to hear from you. Visit onrampbitcoin.com contact to schedule a consultation with one of our private client advisors.
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