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Hello, my name is Andy Edstrom and I'm excited to welcome you to the 7th episode of Scarce Assets, a show that examines scarcity, the most fundamental driver of economics and markets, and the scarcest asset of all, which is Bitcoin. Today, I'm very happy to be here with my friend and Co host Jesse Myers and our guest, the prolific Alex Gladstein. Now I have the pleasure of saying a few things about Alex. I think Alex is simply the best person in the world at articulating how Bitcoin advances and protects human rights. His views have been published by the Atlantic, the BBC, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, the Guardian, and lots of other places. His he is the author of the book called Check Your Financial Privilege, which is the best summary I've found on how Bitcoin is making a direct positive impact on people and especially the poorest and most disempowered people all over the world. And I just finished it and I highly recommend it. And lastly, I'm just going to say Alex is a very nice guy and I'm absolutely delighted to have him here with us today. So, Alex, how are you? I'm great. I'm. I'm happy that I qualify as a nice guy. Yep, more so. More so than the other stuff, but yeah. Well, you got to keep, you know, you got to keep it up though, you know, it's a it's an ongoing test. I really appreciate you coming on today. Let's dive in. Let's dive into. Some of the. The content from Check Your Financial Privilege So So while we live in the US and most of us use the dollar day-to-day and most people in the world aren't so lucky, some live in places like Egypt or Argentina which just experienced major devaluations. My question for you is why do you think that otherwise well meaning people in rich countries like the US don't talk about the damage caused to the lives of poor people by bad currency management? It's a great question, and I think that there's actually 2 dimensions. There's a financial privilege which talk about in my book and that relates to the monetary technology people use. You know, about a billion people have the benefit of living in a country that has proper private property rights protections under a Liberal Democratic government that is restrained by the population as well as having what's known as a reserve currency. So, you know, a Fiat that's relatively attractive so that other central banks will save in it. The other 7 billion people either live under authoritarianism or, you know, a really shitty currency. But there's also energy privilege, and they're actually really connected. So if you look at like a chart of like, per capita income versus basically per capita energy usage, like America's up in the upper right, and that's where you want to be. And then there's like 4 billion people in the bottom, lower left who, you know, don't have a lot of economic capital and who use very little energy. And they are, you know, in some way essentially enslaved, you know, to a degree, right. They, they don't have the full freedom of their time, of their, of their occupation, of their future. And and we have a lot more of that freedom right in the upper right. So sound money and access to energy I think are the two building blocks for for freedom actually. And what's interesting is to look at Bitcoin as a tool that can actually address both of these things is is where my work has been recently going back to check your financial privilege. And all the stories I was researching and interviewing for about five years ago, 2019-2020 that went into that book are all profoundly important. I think in terms of understanding our role in the world as American, at least of me as an American understanding. You know, the dollar is very unique and most people don't live with the dollar. You know, they live under some currency that's that's basically collapsing, going to zero against the dollar. And that's only part of the story though like the the the electricity, energy, power part is is really key too. And it's so fascinating that Bitcoin is this. Technology that can, actually. Do both like it. It gives people sound money and it can allow them to access and expand and turn the energy that's around them that's otherwise untappable into capital or power. That's just very profound I think and and the the coming. Century is going to see the impact of that, I think, especially in places like Africa, Latin America, Asia, yeah. Yeah, it it feels, it feels funny that, you know, when folks in the top right of that energy graph you're describing, there's almost like this psychology of scarcity that comes in of like almost crabs in a bucket. Where like I feel like in the West, we tend not to think about the people in the bottom left because we have this scarce mindset of like we're going to take more kind of knowing that we're feeling that like it's at the expense of other people that we're getting more than our fair share a scarcity. Yeah, that we're using too much when the answer is abundance. Not in this case is abundance, not scarcity. Like the the when you're in Malawi and there's only 11% of people who have electricity but you're surrounded by energy resources, you realize it's not about scarcity. I mean in in in terms of energy at least it's about what can help us transform all of the energy around us into either capital or electricity in a market with a market based solution like you know because right now that's all being done with aid and with concessional financing basically with gifts, it's not sustainable and that's why people languish so much. Bitcoin is like this piece of technology that comes in and provides a market based framework for people to make money and do do business and do well by harnessing all of that otherwise wasted or stranded or orphaned or or just untapped unrealized energy. And that's that's, I think, again, amazing, especially when they're going to get paid and sound money. Which? Is a lot better than the Milanian Kwacha, which is like the sort of the if you're to do a vignette about financial privilege. I mean, these people are the 6th poorest country in the world. They make about $300.00 a year. That's the median. So of course, outside the cities it's probably closer to $100 a year. They save only in Fiat. I know that Saylor was getting skewered the other day for his line where he said that, you know, people who save in Fiat currency, we call them poor. But it was taken out of context of actually a really good point that he was making about rich people don't save in Fiat currency. Rich people save in assets, real estate like like, but poor people do save in Fiat currency and they save in Fiat currency in Malawi, right. So all these people, they don't have real estate or stock market or bonds or they're not investing in companies. I mean, if they're lucky, they're using paper money or, you know, they don't have bank accounts, but like, you know, if they're lucky they have cash, otherwise it's cows in sheet metal. I mean, that's what people save in. That's what most of the world saves in, cows in sheet metal. So most people save, if they're lucky, in Fiat. And it's not like in the United States where we have pretty strong currency that's accepted around the world and isn't going to like, you know, lose all its value overnight like that. That's highly unlikely, right? That is exactly what happens in Malawi, right? So not only is it not acceptable anywhere, not convertible anywhere, can't buy anything with it, whether it be the citizens or the state. State cannot print quacha to buy planes from Boeing or oil from Saudi Arabia or fertilizer from France. No, no. They have to go get dollars first. And and at the micro level people are like basically trapped into like international commerce and then they get devalued. So in November they had a 44% overnight unannounced currency devaluation. So these people who are all saving in Fiat money, they are poor and and they're the dictionary definition, I mean we're, we're, we're talking about radically poor here. I mean, again, $300.00 a year, poor. And all of a sudden they're being told, oh, by the way, you know, the fruit of your labor's only going to buy 54% as much as it as it did 56 as much as percent as much as it did the other day. You know, that's insane. And you know I I kind of argue that it's a crime against humanity because they weren't consulted. They didn't like no one asked them and it hurts everybody in the whole country and that that's that's what financial privilege is. Financial privilege is not even need needing to think about that financial privilege is not even needing to know about that financial privilege is not even like being concerned with that at all. Financial privilege is just being comfortable with money and being able to use it around the world relatively easily and and not really having ever to think about a frozen bank account or an overnight devaluation or hyperinflation or to to to a black. Market price for your currency in your country. And financial privilege is not knowing that the overwhelming majority of the world deals with everything, all of those things, every day. So that's that's really what financial privilege is. Ignorance is bliss in that regard, but I really appreciate you bringing these stories to the fore. That's actually one of my favorite things about your book. Check. Your financial privilege is the case studies. So we just went through one. There are several others and they're all unique and different that you talk about. I though would like to go back to your comment about energy. And I'm wondering, I'm wondering if there's a case study that is top of mind for you with respect to what's going on with people being able to harness energy, you know, rather than just the pure financial access and devaluation stories? Yeah, well. Ever since I publicly check your financial privilege, I wrote another book called Hidden Repression that explores kind of the structure behind financial privilege. And it looks at the dollar hegemonic system and how, whether intentionally or not, like we we basically created a debt, colonial debt, colonialism. And we replaced the old school way of exploiting the world's resources by great powers, which used to be done with violence, pretty much traditional imperialism. And we've replaced that with debt colonialism and that that that book describes how that works and and the vast implications of that and how it's totally hidden from most mainstream people don't know that poor countries send rich countries trillions of dollars net per year in value. But that is not known by people. People just have no idea. They just, they have they, they assume, including me before I did the research like that rich countries, you know, give money to poor countries and we give them aid and stuff. No, no, no. That's what I assumed too. I learned it from I learned it from you. Yeah. We take, we take and it's wild and and it's not like and everything's marginal, right. So it is important, but it it it's, it's, it's. Cruel. Because the amount we take isn't even a huge percentage of our GDP. You know, it's like, but we take anyway. It's like, it's like super, super. Cruel. But anyway, the point is explored That and then my my newest piece that is, you know, at that level came out recently. It's called Stranded and it explores stories and case studies of Bitcoin being used as a technology to expand electricity. Access both both as a social enterprise and and as a capitalistic system. Yeah, awesome. Is there? Yeah, I'm thinking of cases. I guess I've sort of heard of one or two case studies perhaps in Africa. Is that where these, where these stories are are centered? Anything you want to preview with us from the piece? Yeah, sure. So in Malawi we visited a town called Bondo which is a village and it's a place where only 11% of people have electricity in this country. And before 2016 nobody in this village had ever had power before. And through the gift of the Scottish Government an 8 year project took place where finally they were able to get some power to people. And a small company was created by a local conservationist called Mega which was which is the power company and it provides the power so it takes the micro hydro power and distributes it to villagers. The problem is this concessional financing model doesn't cover OpEx or expansion. So what you have is a situation where you know, people kind of stuck. I mean there's like so many people who have electricity and then there's no like capital to to do more, to to hook up more homes or to build more power. It's, it's the they just make enough to scrape by and barely. I mean they're not making, it's not profitable like they're they're paying out of their pocket. The power companies subsidized the energy, so it's not $0.90 per kWh, so it's more like $0.20. So it's. So it's not five times as much as what Americans pay, but like 2 times. What Americans pay and. And that's all subsidy. So this is no, no, no market anything here. It's just social enterprise. It's a charity basically and they're running it so that these people can have power. OK, so then enter Bitcoin mining. So now, ever since about a year and a half ago or whatever, the Bitcoin network is now buying 100% of the power that the hydro station can't sell to the village, which is obviously at night pretty much all its power during storms, all its power and and and you just start to realize is that base load, power generation and all, all power generation, like even even even wind with which is just sort of base load sometimes and not others, right? It's like it turns on and off. You can't. You don't really control that, right. All these sites waste a tremendous amount of power because especially in rural areas and places without grids like which is most of the world, you know, not not advanced economies, but out there there's no, like sophisticated grid. So it's not like the village of Bondo can sell it's excess power to someone else. No, there's no one around and there's no grid, so. So it just goes back. It just gets, it gets put back into the ground with like a machine. It's literally crazy. So, so now they don't do that anymore. Now the Bitcoin network through a company called Grid List and there's other companies doing this. There's a whole alliance of companies. Doing this but. They come in, they set up the little Hut, they they they mine. They buy the power that is not used and they mine Bitcoin with it and they pay a fee to the power company for the service. They're doing that and they make money. Everybody makes money. Everybody does. Well now the power company Mega no longer has to subsidize out of its own pocket. The Bitcoin network subsidizes that power brings brings the cost down for everybody and it's just it's pretty extraordinary and that that's the social enterprise piece and now the power company has enough capital now finally to connect more homes to build more power. And and you know Gridlist thinks this is going to basically electrify all of Malawi by the end of 2530 years from now where whereas like no World Bank or Red Cross or IMF or UN initiative would ever get that done. No Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, none of that stuff there. None of them. No, no, none of those people are going to electrify Malawi Bitcoin will. And then that that was pretty incredible to realize. Yeah, that I I love this topic in particular that what grid list is doing because it's amazing that it it bootstraps capitalism it bootstraps infrastructure. It solves half of the two sided market problem of like to have energy infrastructure you need you need to be creating it but you also need to have a buyer for it. It's a two sided problem and it solves half of that problem makes it so there's demand there's always demand for energy. So good, you know, if you can justify the business case based on the knowledge that there's always going to be demand for from Bitcoin for energy, then boom, you you have. Solved. Yeah, the other half and and that's a charity case. So this is like, OK, so bacon can come in and help social enterprise. Now the business case, so then we went to Kenya and we went to a lake and we saw what is very dominant in Kenya, which is the use of. Power to move water because the country's the world's largest exporter of cut flowers in the world, which was crazy, but basically if you're in Europe and you're buying flowers, probably. Came from Kenya. So you've got a lake and we're sitting outside of the lake and there's a water pump and it's being fed by geothermal base load power, clean, you know, carbon neutral green power that is going to be the same for the next 40 years, every day. It's going to deliver the same amount again, no grid, no buyers, middle of nowhere. Whatever the water pump doesn't use gets wasted. And the water pump, it's not on all the time. It's like variable demand, consumer energy. OK, so normally you're like, you're first of all, you're like, wow, OK now I'm starting to understand how much power is wasted in the world. And then on your left there's a little Hut again, little starlink on top, bunch of neatly stacked what's a miners inside? And it's the Bitcoin arc again. And it's buying all of the power that's otherwise wasted. And the economics are pretty amazing because you know whatever probably cost about 100 grand to buy the miners at the time 20 grand to set up the Shack. So that's your initial upfront for this company that comes in the things going to make like 1/4 a quarter, $1,000,000 a year, OK. So you know they have to pay a fee, so think about 30%. So they'll end up making some money in the first year and then they'll start making a lot of money year 2345. And then this is just assuming like this is looking at a backwards looking five year plan that that that has ranked you know that is that has told them that they're going to make between 7:00 and 9:00 cents from the Bitcoin network by selling it energy. It could be more than that, could be less, but that's like the meat that's the middle of the hump here. So this is what it's all based on. And you start to realize this is going to be incredibly profitable and it's going to be good for the Bitcoin network because if America starts taxing or electricity gets expensive here, dude, people are going to move there. And what that means is you're moving the hash rate from a centralized, controlled area to an area that's off grid. And this is just really, really bullish for Bitcoin. Yeah. So what I find so interesting about about all that is taking back to what you were saying, Alex, about charity. This is not charity what you're laying out right there. That's a strong business case that creates the incentive for the profit incentive for people to develop energy infrastructure in Africa and and do what the Economist has been lamenting for the last 25 years as I've been a subscriber over the past, like, they love this trip of like, why is Africa not developing. It's they had something back on like 2000 calling it the Dark continent. Like everybody's scratching their heads, Why is Africa not developing? And here's Bitcoin presenting a a bootstrapping mechanism for energy infrastructure through the profit incentive. Yeah, it's. Crazy. It is really crazy and I don't think it it's anything Satoshi could have possibly foresaw. Yeah. Do you think, do you think when you. Yeah. But when you create something that ties together incentives in this way, I mean, it creates some unpredictable outcomes. Absolutely does. Do you think, Alex, do you think the narrative around energy usage, let's just say, I mean, you could say in the developing world, but also just globally is the narrative around energy usage and the scarcity mindset and oh, there's only so much energy to go around. Obviously Bitcoin is helping, one would assume, to shift that narrative, but do you think it's actually making an impact yet in terms of average mind share and how the average sort of concerned? Citizen things starting to I mean there was a piece the last week in the Economist which is I think we would agree mainstream. And it's pretty based. I mean, I mean I'll just read you the the the opening line is pretty wild. It says Bitcoin mining is like pouring water on an even floor. It will always go to the lowest point. Later on it says basically that the worldwide search for cheap power is on If you don't get cheap power you won't survive the halving. And later, they say about Africa's renewable energy projects that a lot of them are stalled because there's not enough local consumers who are able to buy electricity to make them financially viable. By offering themselves as a buyers of last resort, miners can help stabilize demand for power and ensure utilities turn a profit. They also might incentivize the investment needed to provide electricity to the 600 million people in Africa, roughly half its population, who do not have access to power from the grid. So I mean, I think it's starting to soak in for people. It takes time. I think it's going to take many years, many, many years for this to properly. Yeah, that sounds like somebody at the Economist gets it right now and that's that's unbelievable actually to hear that at this point. What a turn in the last couple years. Yeah, no, I agree. I mean, the article's not entirely positive, but the point is that they're they're recognizing this. And once you actually just go and see it for yourself, it's you know it's life changing. I had, I wrote three or four years ago about how Bitcoin mining and we can help bootstrap renewable energy in in Africa and elsewhere. I mean that was kind of something I picked up on from Ross Stevens 2020 letter where he talks about this. And I really thought it was very insightful and I started to actually talk to miners working there and it's I started to realize it was happening. But I I had no idea to what scale this was going to change the world until. Until I actually went out there and visited these power sites and started to realize the scope of what's happening now in terms of wasted power and how Bitcoin says this, the technology that was invented to save wasted energy. And that's actually an incredible technology if that's the only thing it did. It would be a top 10 civilizational innovation if that's the only thing it did was save wasted energy. But that is not even top 10 of what most people in Bitcoin think it does like. I think if you surveyed, like people who listen to Bitcoin podcasts or something like that and said what are the top 10 things that Bitcoin does? I don't think they would actually say that. But, you know, I think they will in 10 years. I think is this will be more known and like look I'm like freedom human rights guy you know but I've always thought mining and bitcoin's relationship with energy was equally as interesting and and the impact that it will have on our relationship with energy is equally as profound as the impact it will have on our on our freedom. And that Bitcoin the money is is amazing but but not any more important necessarily than than Bitcoin these sort of energy buyer. So, so that that's that's been underlined recently. So I've started to make these little stickers. Let's say not mining Bitcoin wastes energy. I love it, you know, 'cause like at first you're like, oh, it says mining Bitcoin wastes energy. And then you see the not right. And it's like, it really flips the mainstream Meredith on its head. I mean it really literally they tell you the government has told us for years for decade plus, mainstream media has told us that Bitcoin mining is a waste of energy. Yeah. And it's kind of crazy to realize that the virtual, the literal opposite is true. The diametrically opposed opposite is true. And and yet we continue to like trust these sources of information. And and you know, look, you have to be able to sense make, right. Like a lot of what is written in those newspapers is, is good, is good information. It's helpful or interesting, but some of it is just complete nonsense, and just because it's written in a reputable organization's paper does not mean it's true. It's sort of the point that that the world could be united around telling you that Bitcoin mining wastes energy for so long, when the reality is literally the opposite is pretty wild. Yeah, well, it's partly, you know, due to your work and your efforts. I think that the that the narrative is shifting. I I put out a piece, I can't remember, it was two or three years ago on the same topic, 'cause I saw, I recognize that the narrative, the environmental narrative on Bitcoin was quite bad at that time. And I was thinking to myself, you know, I think this is wrong. I don't think I had, you know, 100% confidence or the conviction at that at that level. I just didn't have the information. But I I tried to apply the logic and it seemed wrong and it is very, very refreshing to see more people coming to terms with this. And yeah, it's not in small part I would say due to the due to your efforts IE it's in substantial part. So let's so let's talk about you know that shifting framework 'cause I I also would have said you know you were telling the story of say like Roy Maboob, right. You know and that was about financial that was really about financial access I think at freedom. And now you're proposing, oh, actually the energy thing is every bit is big. Maybe it's even bigger is this. Do you expect as we learn about this thing that you know, they'll be even additional concepts and benefits that we don't understand up to this point? I mean, we're whatever, 15 years into the existence of this thing, are we still just scratching the surface or do you feel like we've finally started to get our arms around the benefits here? Yeah, I think we're just scratching the surface. I mean, when you actually model it out, it's kind of incredible. It's like Bitcoin is this thing that like attacks inefficiencies. It like attacks corruption. It attacks exploitation and then it it like fixes it. It's kind of incredible. Well, when you you look at for example the way that the world harvests the resources of poor countries and brings them to the economic center and abuses labor and devalues currency and living standards and wages in these other countries so that we can get stuff cheaper, that that's really evil in many ways but but it's but it's but no one would ever say it's that because it's the way we live you know and it's so deep seated that it could never be changed until Bitcoin, right and now Bitcoin steps in and it's offering one neutral currency for all people. So we can't do that anymore. You can't just be like, oh, we're just going to like, squeeze these people over here. I'm going to squeeze these people over here. No, we're all making the same money. Like, you know, we're making different amounts of it. But, like, you can't. It's not like Bitcoin is going to be you. You can't just overhear Malawi decide that Bitcoin's going to be worth less rice than tomorrow. No, it's just going to be the same as in anywhere else. And that's crazy. And that's going to do profound things to World Trade and international relations. But what's really interesting is that it like like it's going to force the people who do the exploiting to to tear down the wall themselves like they they're gonna they're gonna popularize and adopt Bitcoin unknowingly almost. It's like the way it's like the slide roundabout way. It's really really cool. So that's that's kind of, I think what we're seeing now is it's going to spread like a freedom virus and it's going to get into these little nooks and crannies and it's going to like, ignorance will make it stronger. Like, OK, so if the US government is ignorant and wants to tax Bitcoin miners, 'cause they're more morons and they run bad policy and have high electricity costs, 'cause they don't know what they're doing, great. Bitcoin will get stronger. Bitcoin will migrate elsewhere and it will feed off energy from other places and it actually will literally evolve from there, meaning it will, it will become less centralized, it'll become more decentralized in doing so. So it's this kind of crazy insane incentive structure that just I mean it it it it changes us, we we we we contribute to it knowingly but without knowing like knowing that we want Bitcoin or we want to earn money. We we we we contribute to it short in a short sighted way but it it is very farsighted and what it's going to do to the world. So I I don't even think we've even begun to scratch the surface. Yeah, it shines sunshine, shines a light. Where previously there's been darkness, it's this uncompromising capitalism. Totally. That that is incorruptible and that comes into into contact and conflict with the existing system that is corruptible. It has had hundreds of years of corruption. It's creeping into its corners and it's the very fabric of how it works. And here comes this thing that is completely uncompromising and is here to take over, not take part. Thanks for tuning in. If you're interested in exploring any of these topics further, or want to learn more about how we can help you secure a new or existing Bitcoin allocation, get in touch with our team at on rampbitcoin.com. We look forward to supporting you on your Bitcoin journey. Let's let's talk tactics. You know, I still get questions from friends, family, clients, and it's, you know, I'm interested in this Bitcoin thing, but I'm concerned about X, right? Or I'm concerned about Y. And sometimes I just say go, go read Gladstein. But I'm curious what you find resonates at this point with respect to getting people to at least be a little bit open minded with respect to the benefits of Bitcoin. You know, other than obviously storing wealth and accumulating wealth, is it, is it really the case studies that that that resonate the most? Yeah, I think one of the stories that's most powerful is my friend Roya from Afghanistan, and she was one of the first people who taught me about Bitcoin. And you know, she was using it, 'cause she had to. There was no other option. There was no other way to pay women in 2013 in Afghanistan in a safe manner. Cash would get taken by the male relatives. Bank account was not an option. They didn't. A lot of the fintech was sanctioned so she paid, she paid the people that worked for her software company over there and in by the way which was called Citadel software, which is kind of funny but but she paid for for for their services in Bitcoin and it's quite profound. I mean they had ups and downs obviously that year but big ones, but I mean similarly to to you know to going from basically like 10K TO120K back down to 20 Ki mean that's that's essentially what you went through like in relative terms which made it. Price wise dollar price of Bitcoin. Yeah, yeah, which. Which made it hard to become a Bitcoin native company at the time. It's just Bitcoin, you know, which wasn't ready, you know, wasn't ready yet, but it was really impossible to forget was this idea that that This is Money that they could control. So she baked it into her philanthropy and charity efforts and and trained all these girls, thousands of girls over all these years, how to use Bitcoin. So cool. So. And now that's how that's how. That's that's how you fund education in Afghanistan for women today. With Bitcoin, you can't use dollars. It is physically impossible to use a dollar to fund underground education for girls in Afghanistan. Physically, technologically impossible. But you can do with Bitcoin. So people who are like, oh, there's no use case or whatever this is, this is the one, you just explain this to them and that they they basically have to start thinking a little differently, but that there's a million different use cases. But that one is that one I think is particularly important. Yeah. So let's talk lessons for policy there. I mean, you know, at the moment where we sit here in 2024, there are a number of countries that are under US sanction financial sanctions. One of the implications is loss of access to the dollar and arguably the dollar's, you know, at least the the best Fiat currency around, you know, loses less of its value over time. Do you have thoughts, sort of big picture on sanctions policy, you know, whether it's US-led or otherwise, and you know what it means basically for the average human on earth. I mean, are there good sanctions? Are there bad sanctions in terms of the general populace? What are your What are your thoughts? Well, I think that collective punishment is wrong. And whether it be, you know, embargoing an entire country like Cuba or Iran or or Gaza or whatever, I just think that's bad because so many of those people aren't responsible for what the rulers are doing. In fact, none of those countries are a democracy. So why would you punish them? It makes no sense. I I do think that smart sanctions can be quite effective, and I don't think they even need to be monetary. I mean, it could be as simple as the president of Harvard saying, you know what, No, the dictator of China who's currently waging A genocide. No, they're not gonna. They're not. They're we're not gonna admit their daughter to Harvard. It could be as simple as, like the, you know, New York's New York, NY, you know, real estate community saying, you know, no, we're not gonna like let them buy property here or whatever. Like, it doesn't necessarily have to be a frozen bank account, which which, which which could be, you know, which might become not a practical way to deal with people in the future, but there's a lot of different ways to to shame and and and and to oppose people who are doing bad things. I mean, if you look at like, how we as a world finally, after decades opposed apartheid South Africa, like, you know, that that wasn't necessarily all business stuff. I mean, a lot of it was cultural. It was like athletes coming out and speaking against what they were doing. It was, you know, kind of cultural boycott type stuff. So again, like, I think that there are many ways to to to shame and isolate countries without even touching money. I mean, arguably, even when you try to do it with money, even today it doesn't work at all. I mean, look at Russia. I mean, everything just goes through Kazakhstan or or Azerbaijan. Oh, that country's got like 10 times as much trade as it has last year. I wonder why. Or they they they, they continue to sell gas to Europe to create. This is crazy. That's true. And for the first year they were selling tons of it throughout the invasion as they were raping and murdering all these people. They were Germany was buying tons of gas. So it's like, I don't know, like I think the sanctions stuff is just pretty sort of sanctimonious, hypocritical in many ways. I think smart sanctions could be OK. But everything's so subjective. It's hard. You know, I, I, I, I don't really love being in that mindset or industry. I I don't ever want to be involved in that. I don't really love the idea of sanctioning people. I really want to devote my time and energy to to to positive positivity and to liberating people and to creating permissionless technology and supporting it and and you know, asking for forgiveness later. I think this is the cipher punk way. Is that a trend you're seeing in, I don't want to say the industry, but let's say the area of human rights advocacy or human rights policy. No, no, I think like we're reaching the high watermark of the using the dollar as a weapon. Every, every, every activist group wants to get the US government to do acts, you know, please sanction my government. Please do this, please do that. That's really where activism has has gone to today. It's it's become lobbying. And that's why I'm so deeply distressed about it. I don't want to ever have to ask the US government to do anything in my activism. I don't care. I'm just we're we're just going to go out and do stuff that's totally irrelevant to the US government. I don't ever want to work on something that's like trying to beg some government to do something. A, they're not going to give a shit about you in reality. B, they're probably not going to do it. C They might do it and then betray you. I mean, these governments, no government. The governments are not human rights organizations. They're they're nation states that have different incentives. Like maybe once in a while you'll get an externality where a particular leader or a particular policy benefits some other population. But that that's that's not an incentive. That is a, you know, a one off that is that is not not an incentive. So one of the things I wanted to talk about was was aid, government aid and you mentioned it earlier. Based on that statement I'm guessing you're not super keen on on government based aid. Any thoughts? I mean. It could. It could be OK. I mean, it depends. I mean, I think there's some interesting. I mean, look, if you have a bunch of starving people. Air dropping, food aid short notice. There's not too many people that can do that, right? I mean, aid can be helpful certainly in natural disasters and catastrophes, but long term, yeah, it's bad. I mean it creates dependency and especially because if you understand the majority of all assistance is loans, not aid, So overwhelmingly. So yeah, which means we're, which means the lenders are profit. Like, you know, it's just like let's dispense with this idea that it's charitable. But no, I mean, look, I mean, like in Gaza right now, people are starving. And, you know, I think it's fair to point out that it it, it's, oh, well, like they should just open up ports or whatever. Well, then Hamas controls everything. So I think this idea of air dropping stuff's really interesting because it randomizes who gets it, and it actually can get food into the hands of people who are starving. Now, putting aside the question of why are they starving? Every 12 hours matters, right? So, you know, given the history of the Middle East, it is unlikely that the issue of why are they starving is going to get figured out in the next 12 hours. That's not going to happen. But what could happen is an AirDrop. And I think it's kind of interesting. Aid can be done intelligently in that way, right? Like you could have people in a very oppressive environment where traditionally aid might be not a good idea because it basically goes to the government and then it gets controlled, seized, corrupted, and then whatever, maybe to give some leftovers, the population. This is the North Korea example. Like aid groups working with the North Korean government are are mostly a sham because they just give the money to the North Korean government. And you know, you could probably have the same criticisms against aid groups that work as Ramos, right? Or or or any other authoritarian regime around the world, the Chinese government, whatever. It is interesting to think about the choke point, you know, being the existing power structure and therefore randomizing the receipt. Yeah, but this is. Why aid is a? Benedictine, We decided to randomize it. So we don't, we don't send any official anything. We like float information into North Korea and like let it drop or we like send it in the black markets. OK. So this is, this is how you actually reach people. If you send a bunch of USB sticks and computers to the North Korean government, they're not going to, they're not going to give it to who needs. They're not going to give it to who needs it. Right. So but in general, I mean aid has been profoundly damaging. I mean it creates a a patronage system. It creates A subservient, you know, a subjugation system. It creates A subservience, it creates a a caste type system. It creates a power and a powerless. It it it creates dependence. I think it can be OK in limited doses. Certainly charity can be very powerful, but I don't think that it's done a very good job helping people climb out of the colonial legacy of Africa, let's put it that way. Yep, so is the lesson here. You know, introducing a market usually is the best thing, letting individuals with the knowledge they have about their own facts and circumstances. You know, is that sort of the default, default way to go with respect to helping people improve their, you know, their situations in life, including with respect to rights and freedom? Or is it a tricky sort of a mixed bag? Yeah, I don't know. I think it's black. It's not black and white. But the point is I think that what? What, what? What's really needed? If you're going to do charity, well, how about let's go upgrade the monetary technology of all these people who are who are vulnerable and marginalized. No one ever has said that ever, because that's not the game they're playing. But guess what? Bitcoin's doing that, like Bitcoin, is getting into the nooks and crannies of the world, and it's giving people sound money. And it's just remarkable. So agreed. I'll I'll say something I I got it. Of course I got it in a little bit of trouble in in my friend group. I was falling down the Bitcoin rabbit hole, like when I was in my my most zealous right around Black Lives Matter. And you know, I'm so I'm going deep down the Bitcoin rabbit hole and Black Lives Matter is happening. And it just struck me as like, you know, it's it's a shame that Bitcoin for black America isn't like a major talking point and how this could really help create a positive uplift for a historically disenfranchised community. And it, you know, even tiptoeing that out there among my friends was controversial and, you know, politically incorrect and unpalatable to them. And it was just frustrating and exercise and frustration that like, here's this thing that can actually help and does actually help because of because of capitalism. At the end of the day, like it this is has capitalism behind it. Yeah, I mean, look, I think there's a fine line. I think open source Bitcoin education is the way to focus, let people tweak, let people modify, support them if they want. You know, having just watched Dune in the theater, you know, you don't, you don't necessarily want to be the the Lisan Al Gaib or whatever. You don't want to be the voice from the outer world. It it, it doesn't end well usually as that story TLDR is that the savior turns into a crazy jihadist right. So the the the idea of someone coming in to save everybody rarely works out. Game of Thrones also gave us another version of that one with with Daenerys turning into a tyrant. But the the the idea is that that this is a, this is, this is usually not the greatest way but but but if we can find people locally, they're doing awesome work and they want the support. Absolutely. You know, so I think there's like a fine line between like, you know some of this Bitcoin evangelical evangelism stuff I'm uncomfortable with. Like I I don't love the idea of like some dude from Europe going to Guatemala and like going store to store trying to convert people to use Bitcoin. Like I think that that is not a good taste. You think it necessarily needs to be like grassroots and and organic discovered by people? Yeah, like he should focus on his own country. Like what? What is going on there? I think that you, you can look, I just think Bitcoin's consensual. So like what we try to do is be open, listen people express an interest, they can apply for funding from from us or we can partner with them. But really it's on it's going to be on their terms. But like you can't force Bitcoin on people. I mean I try to gently orange pill people that I think could could could use it in in my industry right. Because I think that's very important for for getting policy and aid people at high levels to understand this. And I feel less bad about imposing on them because they're kind of you know in my environment, right. It's OK. But yeah, I I don't know about the door to door stuff. I, I, I, I think that you know, some people who are from those places will start amazing circular economies and then we can support them, right, Which is, which is what we like to do. But there's a little bit of a fine line. Here is the point. There definitely is a fine line. I have also learned the hard way that the hard sell generally does not work. If you heard someone, guess what, They're going to lose the fucking Bitcoin. They're not going to. They're not going to pay attention to it if they don't think it's valuable or important or they don't understand it like you're not. So that's why you really gotta just, you know, we're working on the education piece for human rights activists. This is a different, totally different one thing is like, oh, you run like a corner store, You should use Bitcoin. I don't know about that. But I have no problem being a little more firm with human rights activists in in just in as much as my approach. I'll be like, hey, have you ever had a frozen bank account? They're gonna be like, Yep. They're like, hey, would you be interested in a technology that allows you to escape from that. Yes. Like you just it's just different because it's a smaller niche group. But they're like broad sale like broad broad brush. Let's just convert everybody to Bitcoin. Like, I don't know. I know it's good intentions. I know it is. So that's what makes it tough. But and and yes if the if the person running the store listens and they plan carefully they will benefit. So it's not. I don't want to be. It's not it's it's you know when I say evangelism just I'm just describing kind of the like I'm I'm certainly a Bitcoin evangelist but like the it's not like spreading Christianity which which in my view is arguably destructive. I know some people be offended by that but like that's not this is different like you know you adopt this thing it's gonna actually it it will benefit you so but I just want to be careful. I think we should be mindful and careful about how we spread it is all like just remember you can't force it on people and better better that it be like locally grassroots. Grassroots is just the way to go. So you know, grassroots approach is the best approach. It's a great distinction and and of course I fall into this trap of you know, there's push and there's pull and and one of those makes sense for Bitcoin and the other gets you nowhere. And it's hard to remember that there's that line there between the two. I mean it even, I mean, even in the industry trying to get these exchanges to adopt Lightning, they're not going to do it unless they want to, unless they have an incentive. They're just like Binance all of a sudden realized it could, it could actually really meaningfully improve its product in P2P if they added Lightning. And they did. And it works. And it's just like very popular just in Kenya and people use it all the time. And now with like the mining pools, lighting, payouts, yeah, they're not doing that because they, like, love lightning. No, they're going to do it because it's, they have an incentive. So, you know, we even see it here, right? The incentives have to align. In that So when I when I was in Business School a decade ago, M Pesa was one of the big like case studies of you know what was going on in Kenya with cell phone technology allowing them to kind of leapfrog ahead in terms of development. Do you feel like that narrative is coming for Bitcoin and banking in in Kenya and other places? Where are the where are the B school cases on on what Bitcoin banking can do for for everyone? Yeah. I mean, look, it is a superior monetary technology to the US dollar, period. So the sooner you learn about it and grok it and understand it and learn how to integrate it, the better you'll be. For a lot of people listening, you're probably somewhat privileged like me and you have a pretty solid Fiat income stream and you can choose to convert some of that to Bitcoin for future generations. I mean that's that's that's like the middle class, upper class position on this, which is obviously a huge privilege to be able to do that. You can also regardless of how much income you have, you can earn Bitcoin, which is awesome and way better than buying Bitcoin in many ways meaningfully better mining obviously is going to be for a smaller group of people who have a particular skill set. But you know, I think mining will be will grow into something that's it already is. But you know, hopefully one day as popular as like people who like to mess around with cars or ham radios or whatever, there's going to be a massive community of like home miners, which is, which is really critical and great. We should support that. But you know, a lot of people around the world are not in the position that the majority of people who listen to like produce and listen to Bitcoin podcasts in the West are. They don't have like a steady Fiat stream of high quality Fiat that they can just decide to, oh, I'll just save some Bitcoin. No, they're like living hand to mouth week to week, day-to-day. Their money sucks. They're dealing with inflation. They use Bitcoin very differently. They have very different use cases for Bitcoin. They use Bitcoin to pay for their electricity bill. They use Bitcoin to buy groceries. They use Bitcoin to send money to someone around the world. I understand that like influencers here are like don't spend your Bitcoin and and you know obviously if you can afford yes, if yes, in theory, if you can afford to don't, yes, OK, obviously you should try to spend the Fiat. But that's just not the case for like so many millions of Bitcoin users. That's that's that's not really the boat they're in and they're not They may never be in a position where they can earn in a decent Fiat and then save in Bitcoin. That is a really interesting historical moment that that's not going to last forever. Like eventually all the fiats will collapse and that's just not going to be like an option. We're living in a time when we can speculatively attack the dollar and and the the pound and the yen and the R&B and the the ruble and all these currencies with the Bitcoin. But that's it that's that's that's that's ephemeral there'll those things will die right. So we're in this moment where like if you're yes, you're uniquely generation, generationally well positioned. If you can start saving and stacking Bitcoin for your future, like man, that's that's a once in a freaking Millennium situation there for you. Because most people will be born outside of that window. They'll have either been born too early or they'll be born too late. Like it's a, it's a. It's a amazing. Time. Yeah, it won't be like bad. They'll just earn denominated in Bitcoin. But like, the idea that you can earn or borrow, even really borrowing, right, is the real thing. The idea that you can borrow in dollars and then buy Bitcoin is just the craziest idea. And obviously Sailor is just executing this like, relentlessly. He's just borrowing in dollars and buying Bitcoin. I mean this is, I mean this will be, I don't even know if there will be business schools in the future, But if there are, I mean there's going to be a big freaking book written about what he's doing, that's for sure. But the point is not everybody, not everybody can do that, right. So, you know. Yeah, exactly. I guess he did 800 and then 500 more. But like the the the point is, I mean and and the and the value of the the IO US that he minted are now up 40% from 5 days ago. So crazy. But anyway, I mean there's so much demand to gamble on this thing that like that there's just so much demand for that stuff. But 10s of millions of people are just in a completely different world and they're not, this is not, they're not going to be like borrowing in their local currency till that. No, no, no, this, this is like sort of a day-to-day tool that they use to get by. So I just think we should be mindful of that. Yeah. And it's you know I think it's helpful messaging for people, you know for those who are living in a position of financial privilege, they have savings, they have capital. I think it's useful for them to know that their storage of capital in the system is having positive externalities for people that they never encounter, they never see day-to-day. They're different countries. People should feel so good about investing in Bitcoin, being involved in Bitcoin. I've been giving a bunch of talks to Wall Street recently just to just to, like, help them understand the human rights side of things. But like, I mean, they should feel good. Really good. I mean, right now people are feeling nixed. They want to buy Bitcoin. They want to get involved in the ETF or whatever, but they feel, but they're not so sure. They've heard bad things about Bitcoin in the media. They don't, They don't think it's good for the environment. They're not so sure they, you know, criminals. So, so like, my point to them is like, this is the single best ESG investment ever in history. So that's it. Like if you're actually going to take the words at their face value, like this thing is. Incredible. It expands green power. It eliminates waste of the energy. It expands financial inclusion. It, it promotes human rights. It's incorruptible, like each of the ESG things. It's like it's just, it should be the gold standard for all of them. And the word, you know, we have, we live in a world of information asymmetry. So, you know, we are very far away from the average person understanding that. I mean, and maybe it's gradually and suddenly, but like I'm thinking a decade at least. So I think we're still early. I mean, I think that's actually the mark of are we, is it still early Bitcoin adoption? Well, you know what if the average person on the street in Berlin or Tokyo or Kinshasa or Sao Paulo, and you ask them about Bitcoin and the impact on the world, And if they're not so sure, if they don't know what Bitcoin is? Or they they've heard bad things about it or they don't quite understand it, then we're still early. So it's going to be early until the average person in the world knows what Bitcoin is and and the impact it's going to have on the world. The the the positive impact it's going to have. Once they can like regularly answer that question, the average person, then we're not early anymore, but we are very far from that, very far from. That I do wonder if, yeah, I I sort of my mental model of the future is that a small subset of people ever really understand Bitcoin, and that for the vast majority of people, it's just something that happens to them, to their life, to the world around them. And it's and from their point of view, it'll be almost a joke. Like who would have thought that Bitcoin would become the the currency of the world? We live in the funniest timeline. You know, that'll be the experience that people have because because I think it it, I think it's hard to dig into the 2nd, 3rd order effects of Bitcoin on the world and understand it. And I think a lot of people just live their lives and use the currency that other people want to give them and and want to receive from them. But that's OK. You know, if if only 10% of people in the world really understand that Bitcoin's a positive force for the world, it can still be the positive force that it is. That's it. Of course. I mean, look dude, I mean like 10 years ago, if you knew what encryption was, didn't matter, 90% of the world didn't. It was huge. Same thing with Bitcoin. Like it it it it, it will be this niche phenomenon for a while. But I don't. I'm not someone who believes that it it's possible for it to be limited to being niche. Like, just due to its incentive mechanism and what it is it. We can't have it both ways. It's not going to just be this little like, oh cool, like we have some freedom money over here and we're just going to keep printing Petro dollars over here. No, it's actually built to destroy the Petro dollar. So like, we can live in this little world where we have them kind of side by side for a while, but it won't, it won't be satisfied. Not until it, it completes its quest to just destroy central banking. Like, that's just what it's going to do. Agreed and and it'll do that. And most people won't realize what it did or how it did it, but they'll just be like, oh, I guess we use Bitcoin. It's just. Freaking relentless. And it's not going to stop and it's like there's just nothing working. Ultimately the incentives are not, there's nothing really working against it. Like like every asset manager eventually is going to already is being propositioned to have oh, just a little bit. Oh probably have a little more and then more and more and more and more and then you'll, I don't know what the end, end amount will be but like it's just like that's what reserves are going to be in the future, risk free reserve rates going to be Bitcoin. So it's going to make up whatever percentage of the financial crust of the infrastructure then everything else will go on top. And those people denominating Bitcoin like of course like people are still going to issue bonds and notes and they're going to invest and write checks and of course that'll all happen and and and if you're smart you'll you'll you'll outperform Bitcoin. But like your returns will be denominated in Bitcoin is the point like it'll just be like the yardstick like once you get to that level but we're very far from that level Like like Bitcoin will continue to outperform most things for a long time and then eventually as it evens out and it it reaches it's like risk free rate like you know yes OK at that point yeah you'll you can hostile to to outperform regularly and reliably but the we're just that's that's that's in the world where most people know what it is and and and really know what it is and what it does. Yeah, just to under score that we're. Far away from that. We're still in the monetary premium stored in cattle and sheet metal as you as you pointed out early in earlier in the conversation. Well, some of the other technology has to catch up and like obviously people have invented ways to to use Bitcoin without the Internet in Africa, which is incredible. But you know some of these countries, you know you still have huge swaths of the population with very little access to anything. So technology has to, continues to has to have to go. But you know, from everything I've seen, by the end, by by 20-30, almost everyone on Earth will be either in direct control of a mobile device or one step away. And that's like, you know, six years from now. So, So we'll see. That's it. It's years away, but maybe not decades away exactly. Well, this is, this has been a tremendous conversation, Alex. I learned a lot. As always, before we let you go, where do you want to send people to learn more about your work? Sure. Well, you can look up the Bitcoin Development Fund if you're interested in what we do in terms of supporting open source. If you're interested in how we support communities and people giving getting together around the world, you can look up the Oslo Freedom Forum that's gonna take place in Norway in June, June, June, 3:00 to 5:00. So check that out. We'll have a pretty robust financial freedom track. And yeah, we'll be at the Bitcoin Conference in July, so come say hi. Sounds good. I'll see you there for sure. Well, thanks again and this has been scarce assets.
Transcript source: fountain