Transcript+
Let's be clear, Bitcoin is an international asset. We are spending like drunken sailors. Bitcoin is the only economic entity. Where the supply is unaffected by the demand if you want to preserve your wealth. You have to. Convert. That currency into an asset. That's scarce, desirable, portable, durable. And. Maintainable. Thank you for joining us for this week's episode of Scarce Assets, a podcast from on Ramp Media. On today's show, host Andy Ed Sherman, Jesse Myers sit down with Natalie Brunell and Sam Callahan to discuss the importance of education in the Bitcoin space and the challenges of reaching new audiences. They also touch on the shift in policy and politics surrounding Bitcoin, particularly with regards to Wall Street's recent involvement. Natalie and Sam emphasize the need to focus on the fundamentals of Bitcoin and the power of education and spreading awareness and adoption. They touch on the potential for Bitcoin to create a more fair and competitive capitalist system, the rise of populism due to income inequality in the role of journalists in questioning existing narratives. They also explore the themes of corporate adoption in Bitcoin and the potential for more institutions to follow Microstrategy's lead. Both Natalie and Sam emphasize the need for content to educate newcomers and breakdown barriers to entry in the Bitcoin space. And now, time for the show. Hello, my name is Andy Edstrom and I'm happy to welcome you to the 13th episode of Scarce Assets, a show that examines scarcity, the most fundamental driver of economics and markets and the scarcest asset of all, which is Bitcoin. Delighted to be here with my Co host Jesse Myers and our guests Natalie Brunell and Sam Callahan, who are a legitimate Bitcoin power couple. And this makes them an extraordinarily scarce asset. And I have to say it's been a real pleasure watching them wield their formidable capabilities in the Bitcoin space over the years. And I'm happy to introduce them briefly. So Natalie is an award-winning journalist who applies her talents full time to Bitcoin. She's a frequent guest on major news networks, including CNBC and Fox News. She hosts a fantastic show called Coin Stories, where she's conducted interviews of the biggest names in Bitcoin and adjacent fields. And her weekly Coin Stories news block is my favorite Bitcoin news program now. Sam is one of the best analysts in Bitcoin, and it's been a personal pleasure for me to read his research and watch him develop over the years. He publishes research for Swan as its senior analyst and is also the host of the Swan Signal podcast, which is one of the few Bitcoin shows for which I never miss an episode. Anyway, in my opinion, Natalie and Sam are examples of exceptional talent applied to Bitcoin. I couldn't be happier to talk with both of them today. So, Natalie and Sam, welcome to the show and how are you? Thank you so much. That was such a kind introduction. I really appreciate it. I wish I had been on CNBC. That's one network that hasn't called me yet, but it's on the, it's on the goal list, so. No, I got it wrong. Maybe it was CNN. Maybe it was CNN as yeah, yeah, we'll make, we'll make it happen. Yeah, CNBC, they have to get their get their shit together. Yeah, Thanks for thanks for those kind words, Andy. I mean I got to work first hand with you and it was a pleasure and just excited to be here. Talk with you and Jesse to my favourites. Yeah, thanks guys. And yeah, I think Andy was touching on this a little bit in the intro. But you know, Bitcoin attracts talent that that that Bitcoin frankly shouldn't be able to land, you know, like it, it, it's, it's an exciting asset and, and space to work in and intellectually stimulating and, and, you know, world changing. And it pulls in people like, like the two of you that, you know, probably could, could have a a fantastically successful career in corporate finance or, you know, whatever for Sam and and Natalie doing any journalism that you decided to do. But but Bitcoin pulls people like the two of you in. And that is, I think you guys are like a microcosm of how Bitcoin wins in the long term because it just it, it forces you to, to just get pulled in. You just can't resist it, you know, or at least that's the case for me. And and then you apply your talents, considerable talents to spreading the word to the next Natalie and the next Sam. We're lucky to have you guys. Well, thank you. Yeah. I mean, that's something that I thought about when I was doing my show. I, I was so fascinated by all the people that I was learning from, which was kind of the genesis of coin stories 'cause I love hearing people's back stories and their origins and what, you know, what they overcame to achieve success. And I was like, how did all these people come to the same conclusion that Bitcoin is the solution to some of our, our world's biggest problems? And they come from different industries and skill sets and degrees and fields of expertise. And it was like, wow, all cumulates in this, this kind of this realization that that Bitcoin can be applied to so many things. And I was always fascinated by that. Yeah, it's the brain drain happens from all these different disciplines. And I think it's just curious people. I mean, everybody who's gone down the Bitcoin rabbit hole knows how deep it is. I mean, it's endless. And there's so many different facets of Bitcoin that you can learn about that, you know, nobody knows everything about Bitcoin, no matter how hard they try. And that's what keeps very curious minds just keep coming back to it, keep coming back to it. And there's curious minds in every single industry. And so when you get that bug, get that Bitcoin bug, I mean, it's, it's hard to shake off. You just keep going down and down and learning and learning and learning. And it really changes your world view, I would say. We talk about the. More journalists are not into Bitcoin because I can't tell you how much what Bitcoin solves applies to the people that I worked with across the board. I mean, I, I started my career in a tiny, tiny little news networks and made my way to national. And I, I think it would be so helpful if more journalists were not just trained to communicate well, but also learned how the financial system works because it literally applies to every single story. I mean, Bitcoin could have been applied to any one of the stories I was covering, whether it was politics and public corruption or the cost of education and and living going up and people fighting with each other over these problems. And it's like everything connects back to money. At On Ramp, we believe that Bitcoin will be the most important asset to own in the 21st century. Our multi institution custody solution is the safest and most secure way to ensure that your Bitcoin remains in your in your family's possession for decades to come. Multi institution custody maximizes security and minimizes counterparty risk. Leveraging Bitcoin's native properties to eliminate single points of failure that have historically complicated Bitcoin ownership on ramp provides Peace of Mind for your Bitcoin journey. For more information, check us out at on rampbitcoin.com. It is amazing to see how it touches literally aspects, every aspect of society. I like the brain drain concept. I like the, the human capital and the normal capital that we like to talk about the financial capital, the black hole sucking everything in And as this asset growing and growing, just the amount of literal monetary capital as well as physical capital through mining as well as human capital. It's just a, it's just amazing to see. Well, you've both now been through, I want to say probably roughly a full cycle in Bitcoin, maybe more. And as much as Bitcoin touches all those aspects of society, it's also a wild ride. Maybe we'll start with you, Natalie. What thoughts do you have since you pivoted your career to Bitcoin and this and this road that you've been on, you know, lessons learned or anything that our audience can benefit from? Oh gosh. Well, it's been the biggest blessing, the most rewarding work I've ever done, more challenging in many ways. I left one industry that was 24/7 where something crazy can happen at any time and bitcoins 24/7 too. So so I'm kind of used to that. But overall, it's just been really empowering being able to be my own boss and start a company through this podcast. And really the power of decentralization through communication and media and seeing how important it was to sort of check the gatekeepers that I sometimes was feeling disillusioned by when I was working in the industry. It's crazy to look back on my time as a reporter because I I often would be attracted to the stories that were more investigative. I was, I was usually an investigative reporter at my stations and I just wanted to root out corruption. I felt like the average person was getting taken advantage of. And I think I saw a lot of the people that I interviewed as sort of sort of like an example of what my parents went through in the great financial crisis. And I wanted to hold powerful people and government actors accountable. But when I was reporting, because I had no financial literacy and I was not taught in school about fractional reserve banking and money printing and all the things you really, you really go down the rabbit hole through Bitcoin to understand. I was assigning blame on the wrong places, which is, I think I, I really understand when people get political and polarized and I'm trying to yank them out of sort of that, that false narrative of it's one party or the other, because it's really the system and the incentives that are so broken. It's not because the corporations are greedy or there's some sort of cabal that is guiding the I, I really don't believe that. I think it's the incentives and I think we're all guided by self-interest and, and Bitcoin makes that a good thing, flips it to the positive. And I just, I just want everyone to be educated because, you know, people are busy working so hard in all these different industries and they don't even know how money works. They interact with money every single day and their homes have become their savings accounts and they're desperate, desperately trying to, you know, afford a family in all parts of the country and in the world. And they don't understand that. Like they're literally being stolen from every single day. And it's something none of them voted for. And, and so it's made me just really appreciate the, the power of, of education and, and teaching people really the basics of our financial system. And I'm grateful that I get to do that through my own show. I never thought that something like this would be possible. It's a phenomenal blessing. Well, the education angle is huge. And Sam, I know you have you had the similar approach in that regard, You know, is that by coincidence? Are you here, you know, are we all here doing education because that's just the way that we bring Bitcoin to the masses? What What are your thoughts in that regard? Well, I do think education's really important because I think the technology's on our side. I think it's just a matter of it's like an ace asymmetrical opportunity right now because the information isn't widely distributed yet, and people just have to understand what this thing is. There's so much misinformation over the years about Bitcoin. I mean, if you weren't a critical thinker and you just read the headlines, I mean, you would have shrugged off Bitcoin for a scam, a Ponzi, you know, all the bad things. It's used for criminals. Everybody's gotten in Bitcoin early, multiple cycles ago. I mean, they had to be a critical thinker by definition because they had to look past the headlines and do their own work and do their own research to eventually come to the realization that no, this thing solves a real problem. And it's it solves the problem of the inability for us to save. I mean, it's such a huge problem that's faced by 8 billion people today. And and so once I realized like, OK, it's just people need to understand this. And this message has to be delivered to different audiences in a way that resonates with them. And I thought I could do that. I thought I had skills from my prior career and how can I help Bitcoin adoption? I think I could, you know, use those skills to help drive Bitcoin education. I thought that was the most important problem is that people just need to know more about it. So that's kind of why I went the education route. It just felt like I could, you know, thrive in that scenario and that role. And I thought it was the most important thing to do, which was just educate and multiple cycles. I mean, it is a roller coaster. I mean, it goes up and down and you just got to strap in. And I think just focus on what Bitcoin is and why we're here. And it's because it's, it's an empowering technology that allows individuals to save and just hit home that point over and over and over again, because at the same time, where we have the solution that only continues to grow stronger. So focusing on its adoption metrics and, you know, whether it's institutional adoption, whether it's how the protocol is developing over time and adding more functionality, you know, focusing on those things instead of the price, while at the same time looking at the traditional financial system and how it keeps getting worse, right? The debt just keeps increasing and at an exponential rate. And just saying, like, look, inflation's rising and this isn't going to get better. You need to protect yourself. Here's this that continues to grow stronger. And so I just, I think education is so important and it's why I focus on that. And that's what I would say to people like going through multiple cycles or entering their first cycle, Focus on the fundamentals and focus on what you own and why you're here in the 1st place and you'll be fine. It's a lot easier to hold when you're not staring at a price every morning or staying up at night checking your phone. Much easier to hold if you just focus on those things. I actually want to piggyback off that. The fundamentals are so important. I think when you've been in this space for a while, we are in sort of an echo chamber, especially on Bitcoin X or Twitter, whatever you want to call it. And sometimes you forget what it was like to be at that very beginning where you're asking the very simple questions, you know, the very early questions, what is a note? How does Bitcoin mining work? And the more that you can really hone in and articulate those answers, while the more effective I think you'll be. And it kind of builds on, on itself in layers in the same way that Bitcoin does. Because now, I mean, one of my biggest challenges as we're in this new cycle is trying to communicate to those total newbies who, by the way, are now more skeptical, some of them than ever, because of what they saw happen with FTX and the crypto implosions. And just the whole craziness of the market and the, the breakdown of what we're being told by media when it comes to the economy versus the, the economic reality people face today. And I really think going back to the basics is super, super important. I'm trying to do that through some scripts and, and videos that I'm putting together. And it's we really got to, we got some of us have to really go back to the basics when we're talking to people. Yeah, 'cause it, it's, I guess this is one of the things that that we don't talk enough about in Bitcoin, but there is like a, a certain trajectory that every Bitcoiner goes through of like you, you kind of stumble down the rabbit hole, you get really excited and you realize that this changes everything about your world view, about the world of finance, about, you know, the role of assets in a portfolio changes absolutely everything. And for maybe six months is probably the typical time frame. Like you're an absolute zealot. You know where this is all you want to talk about, you want at every BBQ, at every family gathering. This is you know, you're going to you're going to talk everybody's ears off about how Bitcoin, how they need to be all in on Bitcoin yesterday. And then slowly from that six, six month like honeymoon, you start to start to lose some of the the zeal or you start to get jaded or a little bit more tired with the the repetition of the constant FUD from everyone that you talk to. And it's hard to like keep in perspective just how world changing it is to someone who hasn't heard about Bitcoin and, and keep that enthusiasm. Do you guys feel like you've gone through that sort of process of, of having to of, of to a certain extent, losing some of that? Like, you know, you've been smacked over the head with with enthusiasm. And and then you have to find ways to, you know, remind yourself that this is the biggest story in journalism and the biggest story in finance day after day. How do you guys, how has that been for you and how have you kind of approached that? Do you? Want to go Nat? Sure. Well, yeah, I mean, I think, I think depending on the the day or week, you feel differently, right. I mean, the sentiment can change so quickly because Bitcoin is extremely volatile. I just for me, one of the big challenges is trying to make sure that my content is, is, you know, keeping up with the pace of the headlines. And it's something that is approachable to everyone if they don't know about Bitcoin, but also interesting enough for the people that are down the rabbit hole. You know, you don't want to repeat too many guests and too many topics, but at a certain point it you can't, you're hitting a lot of the same themes, right? And they're important things and I can listen to them all day long, but it's just, it always challenges you like what, what other area can you explore? And what's something that maybe you're not that clear on that you could go a little bit deeper on so that you expand your own knowledge as a host and, and therefore as an educator. And so it's just, it's, it's really been an interesting cycle though, too, because it just doesn't feel like the bull market back in 2021, which is really where I emerged as as a podcaster and I started to publicly share my, my takes on Bitcoin and I left my, my mainstream media job. It just, I know that we're in a bull cycle. I mean, we're up what, 100 or 200% from from the lows, but the sentiment doesn't feel the same. It doesn't feel the excitement is not there. I've seen charts where people even going to Bitcoin podcasts or YouTube channels is nowhere at the level that it was during the 2021 bull run. And so I'm wondering like, where is that interest and what will spark it? And is it just number go up? Because obviously people at that point are just full mowing and, and wanting to to get on board and learn a little bit more. So yeah, I, I mean, my thoughts kind of change day-to-day on this and I just try to find ways to, to produce meaningful, valuable content for the newbies and the the hardcore orange pilled people. You face the same challenge, Sam. I mean, you're doing in depth analysis on, you know, maybe not so much a daily basis, but at least a weekly and monthly basis, right? And then also day-to-day you're talking, you know, you're talking, having conversations with Bitcoiners, you know, for the benefit of both experts and and noobs. Does it feel the same same way to you where we are in the cycle right now in terms of mainstream participation and interest? Yeah, I think I think it's still really early in this bull cycle if I had to pick, because we're just we haven't seen that like new renewed retail interest. I would say like I haven't gotten like a ton of texts from friends and you just really haven't seen that like FOMO. Same thing with like the comments and videos and things like that. Like it seems like there's either existing Bitcoin holders or there's like more institutional interest like I quote UN quote the smart money. I would say, you know, I don't, I like that term, but I, I would agree, I agree with her. And I think that's the challenge of educators is like, specifically like you have a experienced audience and a, and a, and a not so experienced audience. And how do you keep the content fresh while providing content that attracts both audiences? I mean, that's that's tricky because I can go really in the weeds with a certain podcast with somebody about really technical stuff or more advanced topics in Bitcoin, but that's not going to be really helpful for somebody who's coming at it for the first time. And then it could kind of feel repetitive on my side to just go back to Bitcoin one O 1 stuff. But as Natalie said, it's extremely crucial to remember that people are coming at this for the first time and you have to be the deliverer of that message, no matter how many times you've given that message before. And so just how do you give it in like a fresh way that keeps yourself interested, but also keeps is really helpful for a beginner? I think that's really important. And yeah, it's just I'm human too. Like I get if there's like this, the typical FUD we've heard so many times before that's so easily debunked. I mean, I just have a list of basically articles that other Bitcoiners have wrote that like I have in my pocket that I just throw out to them. And at this point, if I don't feel like arguing it myself, hey, just read these, do your own work, come up to with your own conclusions. If I feel like they're genuine, then I'll I'll, I'll talk with them and I'll kind of walk them through, hold their hand a little bit. But if I feel like they're not genuine, then I say like, look, you can read these articles. You know, this has been readily debunked over the years. But as Bitcoin adoption has grown, I have seen like the conversations change a little bit. Like you don't really hear the Tulip bubble, you know, FUD as much anymore. And, and now obviously, like the China Fud's gone. You know, it's, it's, it's the FUD has changed a little bit. I think we still need better critics personally, but it's become a little bit more advanced and and now there's like this acceptance amongst investors that Bitcoin's not going away at this point. So I think that just shows progress. I have two other observations that Sam made me think of. I feel like so many people right now are distracted by the election and all the political narratives. Like I'm being called on on the news outlets a little bit less because I know that their focus is on the election and I've made it a point not to not to go into that. I don't. I don't, I don't want Bitcoin to become police sized. I don't want it to be something that is right wing or left wing. I, I, I, it's bipartisan. It just is, it's neutral. It's a neutral technology which we need so badly right now to hopefully help unify people. But even the algorithms like on, on Twitter, I noticed that everything kind of ticks up and, and floats to the surface. That is about these politically charged divisive issues. And I, I hope that that changes cause in 2021 we were all at home and I think it was just, we were, we were dealing with the pandemic and everything was closed and everyone was just kind of focused on the market in a weird way. And there wasn't this kind of divisiveness yet. It, it bubbled up in the pandemic. But I'm just, I'm seeing people really distracted by politics right now. And Sam and I are actually trying to, well, we are, we're planning a, a very special event here because we're passionate about orange peeling our local community. I think everyone should do that. Everyone who's passionate about Bitcoin should try to orange peel their friend groups, their family, their local communities. And just, even, I mean, it's, we don't want an event where we're just talking to Bitcoiners, right? And, and a lot of the conferences that we go to, it's a room full of people that believe what we believe. But how do you get the new people in to educate them and give them that 101 And it has been challenging in ways that I did not expect here in Missouri. There is, there's a lot of wealth, mostly real estate wealth. And so they don't see the problem of broken money. They don't see Bitcoin as something they absolutely need to have in their portfolio and something that they would take a Saturday to learn about the history of money. Which again, like, I think all that is so exciting and I think most of us do because we've been down the rabbit hole and we loved that educational knowledge journey. But it's really hard to reach new people and get them wanting to take the time out of their busy schedules and say, look, you really need to learn about this. This is super important if you want to preserve or generate wealth. And, and depending on the the group or depending on their level of wealth already, it's sometimes harder than I, I expected it to be. So yeah, it's it's coming up with trying to figure out how to distract people away from the politics to focus on Bitcoin, but also generate local interest in our community about Bitcoin and and learning about it. Yes, certainly. You know, we focus on scarce assets here and I have to wonder if if I have to wonder if how much of it is just driven by the pain of the scarcity of whatever asset you save your money is, as you just pointed out, bunch of real estate owners, you know, their asset, their primary asset, it's pretty scarce on the spectrum of asset scarcity. It's pretty good. And yeah, I spoke to a group of Realtors a couple months ago. I was actually surprised at the level of engagement and interest. I thought they would Boo me off the stage when I started to explain how Bitcoin was going to take a bite out of their most cherished asset class, which is real estate. But actually they were quite, they were quite attentive. So maybe we've turned over a new leaf with respect to the real estate crowd. But yeah, it seems like it it might take some time. Yeah. And, and in Missouri, I probably, I don't think I've mentioned this to, to either of you, but so the family farm is in Iowa, so have some Midwest connection. And you know, farmers have farmland has been a good asset class in terms of inflation protection because it has that, that dual connection of, of if it's generating commodities. And so, you know, the commodity kind of sets its own price based on all the inputs and what the market will support. And then of course, real estate like, you know, so, so you, you're generating a little yield every year. But, but over the last few decades, the, the big net worth growing side of it has been the value appreciation of the land itself rather than the little yield that you get every year from peace and crops. And you know, if if that's a big part of the culture, the investing landscape of your local region, that's a pretty darn good asset to protect yourself against inflation and to ride the wave of real estate value appreciation as that asset class has been monetized increasingly over the last 40 years since the inflation peaked in in 1981, interest rates peaked in 1981. So, you know, that might be part of the uphill battle that you guys face with getting the Midwest to to realize that Bitcoin needs to be a part of the 21st century portfolio. So we we promised we wouldn't talk politics or Natalie probably she wouldn't. So maybe I'll push this one to Sam, at least to start, which is, you know, you've been you've been, of course, covering what's been going on on Capitol Hill lately and the events of the last month. Do you see a shift in policy and the politics with respect to this, you know, historically controversial asset? I mean, I think it's undeniable at this point the the shift happened in the Biden administration. I feel like because it's extremely obvious that Biden has been hostile towards the broader crypto industry. Let's just say, I mean, pretty much every single thing he said or done hasn't been favorable towards this industry. I mean, that's just kind of a fact. I mean, from the executive order ordering different agencies to do research into it and then saying like, hey, we have to stop illicit activity from happening with this new industry. To the illegal data collection on Bitcoin miners that after the Texas boxing associated Suitum was found to be unlawful. To his budget proposal that says he's going to tax Bitcoin miners by 30%. You know, it's really, this is a countless list. And then he appointed Gary Gensler, who has been, you know, got dragged kicking and screaming after losing a lawsuit to finally approve the spot Bitcoin ETFs. He still hasn't approved the options on the spot Bitcoin ETFs. He did that rule for SAP 121 that turned out to be, again, didn't do any kind of congressional review. He just slapped down this rule. There was no kind of comment period. The Government Accountability Office came out and said, hey, actually this needs a congressional review. And then it hits the Congress floor and they overturn it. And then Biden says he's going to veto it. And then it goes to the Senate. And some of these Democrats go against party lines, passes the Senate with bipartisan support. And then Trump does his thing. And then Trump suddenly goes, hey, I'm pro crypto. And then the Biden administration's like, oh, OK. And then they start calling people, and then they actually follow through with the veto, which is interesting, right? Which I think there was a mistake, but maybe it's because of this other stuff that's happening with Trump. They feel like, OK, we don't have to be totally pro crypto yet. But honestly, like, if you look at it, there has been this shift generally and now there's like kind of more bipartisan support. There's more acknowledgement of some of the benefits that Bitcoin can bring. I mean, you have people like Lummis who have been banging the table. Tom Emmer, you have, you know, Warren Davidson, who's in a leadership position. He's, you know, the head of the the House Committee of Financial Services. And so there are advocates in Congress for this industry. And now their voices are just finally being heard, I feel like. And so we'll see if this continues. There is momentum. And obviously having a leading presidential candidate coming out and accepting lightning donations and saying he's pro crypto and he's going to build a pro crypto army. I mean, it's hard to say that that's not positive for Bitcoin adoption. I do agree with Natalie, though. It's like you don't want this thing to become a political issue, but we'll kind of see what the other party does. I mean, there's reasons for both parties to embrace Bitcoin for different reasons. So it doesn't have to be like that, but we'll see how it plays out. But I think the shift is there. I think it's very, very evident for those, you know, keeping a close track of these things. And it, it would be such a shame if it does get politicized and, and becomes a partisan issue. And because effectively 1/2 of the country would be locking themselves out of exploring Bitcoin and, and benefiting from its, you know, savings technology properties for, for some amount of time. For, you know, maybe that takes four years or eight years or 10 years for the, the politicization to be undone eventually from the economic reality playing out. But Sam, I was surprised by the veto going through because it sure felt like it sure felt like the Democrats realized that they can't afford to lose the crypto vote in, in coming into the election and that they, you know, sent out some memo at the highest level and overnight they were going to be pro crypto as well. It felt like that was what was happening. And then the veto goes through. So you're, you're more plugged into this than than any of us. What do you think? Where do you think that leaves the partisan nature of crypto right now? And where do you think that's heading into the election? And we want people get Natalie on the record for that. But I. Think maybe we will. Yeah, I just think he had to go through with the veto and how to do it. Credibility issue. You know, he made a public statement saying it, but I think Wall Street wants this thing overturned. Wall Street wants the ability to custody Bitcoin on behalf of their clients. I mean, they've seen this thing rock it up and they've seen other crypto native firms benefit from being able to do it, but they haven't been able to do it because of this silly rule that was kind of implemented bypassing congressional review. I mean, it wasn't normal procedures. And BNY Mellon State Street were building out their custody solutions for their clients. And because of this random rule, all that was thrown to the wayside. They had to basically fire a bunch of staff. I mean, all that stuff was being developed for years. And then the SEC came out and did that. So I say that because the Wall Street lobby wants this. The American Bankers Association wrote Biden a letter hours before he vetoed it saying like, hey, this is wrong and we want this actually, you're going to, you know, be this is harmful for financial stability. This is harmful for investors. You're preventing the most well regulated financial institutions for custody in these assets on behalf of, you know, their clients for the Bitcoin. And so, I mean, it makes no sense, but I think it was just a credibility issue. And I think when you have Chuck Schumer and major Democratic senators supporting it, I just think it's a matter of time. Maybe it needs an administration change for this to get overturned. Maybe somebody new at the SEC to kind of remove this rule. But it will get overturned because Wall Street wants this. And what Wall Street wants, Wall Street gets. I mean, it's one of the most powerful lobbies in Washington, DC. So maybe it just needs a a change in in leadership before this actually gets through. But I think it's inevitable. Well, and if you just follow the money, I mean, the Democratic senators that broke rank, if you look at where they where they get their donations, a lot of them obviously sided with the Wall Street and banking lobby that support their election campaigns. And so it was really interesting because for the first time, it was like the crypto industry was on the same side as the Wall Street lobby and it wasn't enough for for Biden to veto it. But I do think if you're going to try to come from the other side and and ask the question of, well, why, why maybe would they not want this yet There are some that would defend Gensler in saying that maybe they don't want the transition to happen so quickly because this asset class as it eats into everything else. We want the transition to be as controlled as as possible. And so maybe they're just trying to figure out ways to really implement and integrate this into the traditional system, which obviously is inevitable, but they're trying to, you know, slow those, those those those tremors that come with any sort of transition, especially one that could be this this sizable. So Natalie, you mentioned earlier that one of your inspirations to journalism was holding Wall Street accountable for things that happened, I think, in the global financial crisis. So you've watched this movie play out and we've come full circle to yeah, to Wall Street lobbying in favor what, you know, analysis. I'd love to hear your analysis. We kind of have a little bit, but I, I'd also love to hear your, your feelings about that. About what? About Wall Street coming. About, yeah, about the about Wall Street coming around to to Bitcoin? Yes, exactly. Well, I do, I do. I do think that it, it is inevitable and I'm a huge proponent of free markets and one of the saddest things that I think we have is crony capitalism as opposed to real capitalism. I feel like the, the value and the quality of goods and services, which would be much, much better, much higher if we had real capitalism and, and things that didn't work were actually allowed to fail instead of bailed out. And as I, as I learned more about the history of money and how we became global reserve currency and the Triffin dilemma that comes with that, I, I see why we've become so financialized and, and why bankers and Wall Street makes so much money. And so again, it's like you go down to the, to the very core and drill down to the sand and it's the, it's the money and the incentive system that's completely broken. I, I just, I think that you have to the incentives, Dr. the outcomes. And so I don't think that there are necessarily a bunch of evil people who are running corporations and these Wall Street firms. It's just they're benefiting from a system that allows them to take advantage of it and, and be bailed out if something goes wrong. So I hope Bitcoin at the at the core will fix that. I think that it's a good thing. It's a creative that we have investment vehicles like the ATF so that pension funds and traditional, you know, mom and pop and Busters and Ras can, can move in to start to adopt. But I, I obviously think that it's better to learn how to own spot Bitcoin and self custody and do multi sig custody because why would you, why would you pay these? I mean, they're not high fees right now, they're all competing. But ultimately you're trusting an intermediary, you're introducing counterparty risk and they take a slice of it. So it's not real Bitcoin. But overall, I think it's good that we've gotten to a point of legitimization and I think it's understandable why the black rocks and, and many more firms that are going to follow are going to want to be big Bitcoin holders. So I, I tend to see things as all like, everything's good for Bitcoin and the more corporations on a big and small level that adopt it, the better. I hope that in the far future, I don't think this is going to happen overnight or maybe not even in my lifetime, but I hope we do move to a Bitcoin standard where the money is universal and fair and can reinstate a system of capitalism that creates more competition and allows for again, like real value to surface as opposed to encouraging monopolization. I think what companies do today is just it's horrible. But again, it's, it's not any individual CEO that's evil that's doing this. It's the system that they're taking advantage of to be able to take on cheap corporate debt, buyback shares of stock that boost executive salaries, while meanwhile the products and and services that they offer continually deteriorate and the average workers making like 200 times less than a CEO. You can imagine you can understand why populism is on the rise and the workers feel disenfranchised 'cause they are. And so if you had a system that disincentivize things like that and people had to actually compete based on real value and you couldn't just take on all this debt and leverage and re hypothecate, maybe, maybe we would have a better system. Maybe we would have things that we don't even, you know, we can't even imagine now. Maybe we would have faster planes and, and at cooler cars and things that got blocked by, by regulations and, and and got, I don't know. I just, I, I imagine a more abundant and better world with with Bitcoin, but I don't know how long it will take for us to be on the Bitcoin standard. That was awesome. That was, that was the war cry of Bitcoin evangelism right there. Like you brought it back to the, you know, the true north of this makes everything better and, and, and breaks the, the drag that the economy has suffered from for the Fiat era. And it can return us to an era of innovation and abundance through abundance, through scarcity. Ironically, you know, like that's if you have scarcity in the money, you have abundance in, in, in economic innovation. It, it seems, at least looking at the, the, the 150 years between the American Revolution and the advent of central banking in in 1913. So yeah, Hell yeah, Natalie. I was. I was loving that. That was a great rant. Yeah. That was a great rant. Well, I do. I think about it a lot. I mean, I think most of us do, especially when we travel. Even people who don't understand Bitcoin, it's like why? Why are planes? They feel smaller. The food isn't as good as it used to be. The nothing's as clean as it used to be. My my meal at the store is more expensive, but it's smaller and the ingredients are awful. For me it's like just follow the money, follow why this is happening because they have to continue to get X amount, you know, increase in, in the amount of size and profit every single year. And how are you going to, how are you going to do that without sacrificing the quality while you're paying your CEO, you know, $5,000,000 a year? I all of this, that's why I totally, I totally get why people are like, we need a higher minimum wage. I don't believe in it anymore because of the economic studies I've done. But it's like, I get why the cries are there because everyone recognizes the problem. They just can't figure out how to properly identify the cause and what the solution is. 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When, when you're, when you're talking about this, it sounds like it sounds like pure journalism to me. Like I just keeping struck by like this is a journalist's curiosity and intellectual curiosity digging into the core problem here. And, and it brings it back to what you said earlier, Natalie, like I'm curious to get your opinion on this. Why haven't more journalists figured out that this this is the thing that they should be focused on? Yeah, I've wondered that because I, first of all, you know, it's funny. A lot of people think that news is very glamorous, so you're on TV, so you must make a ton of money. And what a great lifestyle. It's really tough. You start out and you're out. My first job was paying like $28,000 a year when I had student loan debt. And my first internship in high school paid more than my first real job with a master's degree in news. And it's a tough grind. You work weekends, you work nights, You're sent on some of the most dangerous stories and settings and environments. But what I realized is that I I think one of the reasons I appreciated Bitcoin more and faster than my colleagues seem to be is I had a pain point. And that pain point was my families financial loss and crisis. And the, the two of them, my parents, I grew up with the stories of them growing up under communism and how this total government control of the economy was a way to create poverty and of the black market is where people transacted in value. And, and there was real price discovery. I, I didn't actually learn until very recently that my gram, the reason that my parents were able to have an apartment in Poland because everyone got like a small government apartment. But the reason my parents were able to to actually upgrade theirs was because my grandma sold meat on the black market. She was a cook for government police and she sold extra meat, risked her, you know, her life and her livelihood by selling it on the black market and was able to accumulate enough cash that they were able to get a bigger apartment in Poland before they came to the United States. And everything was transacted in that way. And and there was just no social mobility or, or economic hope that you were going to be able to achieve, you know, something great in life. And my parents always wanted to come here, especially my mom. She looked at the United States as a beacon of hope and opportunity that no matter where you come from, you could come from the deepest levels of poverty. If you work hard and you get an education like you can do and be whatever you want. It's like a level playing field of opportunity and you, you determine it. It's your it's your work that determines your success. And I think a lot of people hope for that. It's like the American dream became a universal dream. It tapped into these universal human desires that we all have. And I, I think that Bitcoin will help us maybe revive some of that because you're right. I mean, when I was a journalist, I just, I felt like a lot of people are getting sucked into the narrative of whatever these government agencies were telling them without doing some more critical thinking and questioning things. But because of my mom, I questioned everything. I mean, we would put out studies. And I'm like, I don't think that this is like, what's the other side of this and why aren't we sharing it? And, and so I grew up with a very skeptical mind because of my parents and what they went through where they couldn't trust their media and my friends, for the most part, they grew up in that like golden era of, of America. The I mean, 80s and 90s was amazing. I think it was like the best era to grow up in technology was like enough to make your life more interesting and easy and efficient, but not too much where you're just like sitting on your, you know, phone all day and have a different version of yourself via online personalities. It was just, it was like a very prosperous time, I think in in America's legacy and history. And then all of a sudden we realized that we've burdened that entire generation and they're now trying to pay the tab and they can afford anything. None of my generation can afford their own house without parental help. And so a lot of the people that I worked with, they did, I mean, they grew up in really great middle, upper middle class homes. They had enough to get by. They weren't worried. And they assumed that their job would only help them accelerate in life and do even better than their parents. Only to, you know, find themselves in their mid 30s now being like, why am I still working super hard and can't accumulate, can't buy a house or can't start a family. And so that's why I hope more of them learn about Bitcoin. But I also think the people that reach Bitcoin sooner are the ones that have like a pain point or something that they experience where they're like, wait a second, there is a real problem and hopefully there's something to address it. I love that analysis and and the focus on questioning, questioning the party line, questioning the existing edifice, you know, the narrative essentially. That's fantastic, Sam. I'd love to get your take a little bit from from an analysis perspective. You've been analyzing Bitcoin and everything it touches for years now. What are some of the more interesting or maybe counterintuitive elements that you've come across in your analysis or maybe analysis that might violate some of the narratives either with respect to Bitcoin or its value or or anything it touches? Yeah, I'd say, you know, one is that, you know, all these ETF inflows and it's just, it's been interesting to see the price just go completely sideways. You had the big run up up until March, and then it's just kind of chopped around sideways for a few months now. And people are like, well, what's going on? These ETFs are gobbling up all these Bitcoin and there's only so much Bitcoin being mined after having the, you know, where's the supply shock? Whereas all the demand's still there and they're wondering why they're selling, but it's actually the long term holders that are selling right now. So those those like that metric that everybody pointed to all the time was like, oh, 7070% plus of Bitcoin. UTXOS haven't moved in greater than a year. You know, people are holding, but what you see in previous cycles of when the price gets back up to previous all time highs, you typically see churn there. And that's kind of what we're seeing now. So it's actually spot selling that I think is causing some of the sideways price action or why Bitcoins not going to the moon or going to 80K or 90K right now. People, if you if you think about UTXOS, just because people held for a year or two doesn't mean technically that they are convicted hodlers. It could be somebody who bought the last top who's basically stared at Bitcoin and hated it for the last two years because it's been underwater and they're like, man, this thing sucks. Everyone told me it was going to be great. They don't understand what they own. They don't have a long term mindset, but they didn't want to sell at a loss during the bear market. Maybe they're smart enough to know that. So once it got up to their previous entry point, which is probably around the previous all time high, they finally sell after breaking even or they're maybe they're a little bit in profit. So I think that's part of the reason why you see churn around previous all time highs and I think that's what we're experiencing. So people are wondering why it's selling and it's actually these long term like convicted hodlers that are starting to sell. And I think I think that's temporary though, because I think everyone on this call would probably agree that now would probably not be a good time to sell. I think it's actually a good time to accumulate because you typically see this in the early stages of bull markets. Usually there's a bit of a chop around the previous all time high. It takes a couple of times to breakthrough with momentum and then there's a lot of price discovery afterwards. And so I think that's ahead of us. And I think there's a lot of, you know, institutional investors that are still doing their due diligence with this thing. And I think that's still coming. You saw that from Fidelity, you saw that from BlackRock, Vanek. They all said the same thing as that primarily the early the 1st wave of ETF buying was primarily retail investors. It wasn't the institutional investors with all the money. It was retail because it just takes time for these large institutions to pull a trigger on a new asset. Some of them actually can't even do it before a certain amount of time if there's a new investment vehicle to invest in. So all that to say, right now there's some long term holders that are selling. I think that's temporary. I think this is a period of accumulation that's occurring. And I think this is the early stage of the bull cycle. And I think you're going to see a lot of these institutional investors, a lot of these big names. I think it's going to be the next SEC filings next quarter. I think you're going to continue to see really interesting names pop up, different types of institutional investors that are getting their feet wet here. And with each, with each one of those, it just gets the market excited. You know, another pension fund, another big company, you know, another really prominent investor, you know, all those are like white swan events that will just compound it on a on another and get more people to open their eyes and maybe take a look at this Bitcoin thing again. I'm beyond shocked that we're not at 90 or 100K yet. Beyond shocked, especially with the equities and indexes getting to new all time highs. I'm, I'm, I'm really surprised and I think maybe we'll wake up one day with a massive green candle, but I'm really surprised we haven't gotten there yet. Yeah, I was looking at this recently, last cycle. So, you know, in 2020 we got stuck at prior all time high for five weeks and in 2016, so then 2017 when we got stuck at prior all time high, we were there for 1515 weeks. And right now it's been 12-13 weeks stuck at prior all time high. So it is boring as it has been. It's par for the course. And I think you're right, Sam, I think the the snowball of good news is, is is going to happen, you know, as as the halving continues to play out is planning to be. Yeah. One more thing I'd say is that I love this report that Fidelity put out looking at Bitcoins volatility. I don't know if you guys caught that one, but and Hoffa, the CIO at Swan, he recently did some research on this too. It's basically we're at a historic low period of volatility from Bitcoin over like the last year. And typically that occurs at the end of bear markets and you can think of it as like a coiled spring. And usually there's a lot of apathy with the price. And then there's really a lot of outperformance that occurs after periods of very low volatility, which is what we're in right now. And so that's another reason to get excited, I'd say. And, and I would just go check out that report from Fidelity. I think it's one of my favorite pieces that they put out in a while. So go check that out, Chris Kuiper over there. And the team did a really good job with it. There's a related dynamic there perhaps I think Sam, which you highlighted with, you know, price sort of bumping up against prior all time high and maybe those one year holders, you know, reducing their holdings. And we've kind of the prices hit and it's tested once, I don't know, we're on like the 4th or 5th in a retest of that 70 ish $1000 level. And perhaps, yeah, perhaps once those should we call them medium term holders? You know, once we grind, grind through their supply, you know, there might be, there might be an opportunity for, for upward movement there. I'm curious, Natalie, you, I mean, your channel is substantial and you're doing, you know, relevant news content, you know, week to week, but you're also interviewing experts in the field. And then I heard you say you're, you know, you're working on some more basic content or as well. Are you seeing any patterns in interest in different kinds of content on your channel that gives you any insight about what people are interested in and what and what's going on? Yes, fascinating insight. My most popular episodes are with Colonel Douglas McGregor and Whitney Webb and both of them are, I mean, Bitcoin is a tiny portion of those interviews. They're really talking about the ideas of the new world order and de dollarization and things like geopolitics changing and corruption on on a deep level and people really respond to that. I did another show recently with Ed Dowd. We talked about sort of also that he investigates like the deep state and the the consolidation of big banks. And is there kind of like a banking implosion on the way where we're going to have even fewer too big to fail banks and we're going to move to a CBDC that got a lot of views and listen. So people are really interested in these very kind of triggering and sometimes outright negative themes and topics, which is, I understand, but I, I'm sick. I'm a really positive person. Like I, I really don't believe that there are evil people that are in control, guiding us and trying to create this controlled demolition. At least I hope not. But I, in my core, I don't believe that. I think that the system, it's, it's just so broken. And individual actors who are at different levels of power and influence are just taking advantage of it as best they can for themselves and for their families. And it's a lot of just, they want to survive and they want their organizations and groups of power and structures to survive. So I think we have to strike at the heart of all of it in a very sly, roundabout way, which is Bitcoin. It's not, it's not a war, it's not violent. It's not like coming at them aggressively and and forcing anything down anyone's throat. It's like this peaceful opt out into a beautiful new system because it's so hard to reform a very corrupted system and try to battle all the people who have much at stake. It's, I think it's easier to create a new one and then get people to see like this one's a lot better. You should go over to this world. And so I think that new technologies always win. It just takes some time and sometimes the old guard has to has to move on from this world and that'll happen with Bitcoin. But I just, it's been interesting to see that like when I bring on guests that are of sort of, you know, wanting to talk about the New World Order and the the, the forces that are enacting more control and limiting all of our freedoms, that gets a lot, a lot of attention. I want to under score the Colonel McGregor episodes. I really enjoyed those. And he has, well, first of all, he's very articulate, but also he has such a command and knowledge base of geopolitics and, and obviously military dynamics and understanding about power structures. And yeah, it is a nice, it is a nice juxtaposition though. You're always so positive. Bitcoin gives you hope. It gives me hope too. It gives all of us, all of us hope. I think it would be a darker world that we live in today in the absence of Bitcoin's existence for sure. Yeah, well, a funny story about Colonel Two. I, I didn't know he was a bitcoiner. I was really trying to better understand the, the geopolitical conflicts that are impacting the global economy. And I thought he was very smart about everything that's happening with, with the shifts globally and the risks right now when it comes to the dollar and our status as like a global leader. And, and then he just came on and he was like, I, I own Bitcoin. This is awesome. Now I understand why you said yes to my show. He's great. He's fascinating. To see it. What about you, Sam? Are you, you know, are there any guests you've had on Swan Signal lately that have surprised you or that have gotten surprising amount of traction in terms of the audience? No, I mean, it's kind of been the typical, the macro guys that usually do well. People love macro. I mean, I think we all know that. So like the Luke Romans of the world, James Lavish I, I brought up Chris Kiper. I really enjoyed that episode that I had with Chris because you know, when he he came on and we really delved into proof of work for his proof of stake. And I think that's actually going to be a topic that's going to come back in full force here with the approval of the spot Ethereum ETFs. You know, why is proof of work so important? You know, why can't we do this by being quote UN quote, 99% more energy efficient with proof of stake? What are the trade-offs? And I think he does a really good job of laying it all out and, and the benefits of proof of work. And so I really enjoyed that episode. I got really good reviews and comments. And he said that he's never, he's been on a lot of shows and he, nobody ever asked him about that research paper that he wrote. And he says it's one, it's his favorite one that he's written. So that was that was probably the my favorite recent guest that I've had on. It's interesting for for both of you. It's not really like Bitcoin specific topics that that have been popular or gotten more traction for you recently. I, I sort of wonder if that's just a, a symptom of, of an outcome of where we are in the cycle and that there's not a lot of fresh interest right now, not a lot of people Googling Bitcoin for the first time at this point in time. But historically that happens first, you know, six months, maybe a year, every four years. And we're kind of coming up on that time when that would would typically start to happen. So maybe that will flip for you guys in, in the, in the coming year at some point where suddenly people, you know, there's a wave of, of new listeners who just want to learn about Bitcoin because price keeps going up and they need to know why. Well, I definitely think there's an appetite for one O 1 content because earlier this year we put out a a course. I hosted it for Swan and it's totally just 101 and really approachable bite size, like less than 10 minute clips. Oh, sorry. And and it's just talking about what is Bitcoin at the very at the very fundamental level. And that got a lot of traction and a lot of views to the point that I was even like, wow. I mean, there's clearly a lot of people who are just starting at the beginning who need more content like this. Yeah, that's awesome. There's so much better Evergreen content now than than there was. And before 20/18 it was like there kind of wasn't anything like truly Evergreen like before bullish case for Bitcoin, Bitcoin standard. It was like Andreas videos. And since then it's it's all the great stuff that Swan's putting out all these awesome podcasts. Natalie, yours, your stuff is just the most accessible for for someone who's who's new to Bitcoin. That's actually I, I, I point people of all, of all the interviews that the podcast that, that I've been on, I point people to the one that I did with you as, as like, you know, the my go to because it's such an accessible format. And you know, thank goodness that that stuff exists. And, and again, this, this feels like this is how Bitcoin wins because of the, the inevitable virality of the, the content propagated by more and more capable people as we move through the adoption curve and win more talent. It it's it's great to see. Well, I'm excited that you're both doing one-on-one content as well as, you know, deep in the weeds coverage. Natalie, I wonder this may be speculation. I mean, we can talk about what you're working on now or what stories interest you the most, but I'm curious what you think is likely to, you know, to be of interest to you, not just to your audience, but to you specifically with respect to this whole wild and wooly space. I mean, what, what do you think you're gonna be most intrigued about getting into the details on going forward? Well, to be honest, my focus is really 101 information and content right now. I feel like there are so many people that we need to reach who we haven't yet. And I'm trying to just really put myself in that mindset that I had back in 2017 where I was first investing in Bitcoin. Was totally skeptical, terrified that I was going to lose all my money, not sure what I was doing and and intimidated frankly, by the space because so many people come from an engineering or finance or computer science background. It was a lot of men. I just felt like I didn't really fit in and I didn't have the expertise that was needed in order to get involved in the space. And I realized that I, I mean, everyone, we need everyone. Bitcoin is for everyone. And so I'm focusing on that. I'm focusing on, on, like I said, writing scripts to help teach people, working on some special videos that will hopefully come out in the coming months. And just just get people to really understand at a fundamental level why this is such an important opportunity. And maybe like bring together all of these great analysis and themes that so many people have written on everything from the fundamental of how Bitcoin mining works to the human rights angle to the energy angle. And like, really, how do you break that down? Simply because I've always been someone who I speak to a mainstream audience and I don't know what their level of expertise is. And perhaps I assume that they have maybe no financial literacy at all like I did when I started out. And it's like, how do you make something interesting and approachable and easy to digest? Because if you can, if you really understand something, you can, you can share it simply. And that's truly the greatest challenge to know it that well, that you can explain it in, in 30 seconds in a way A5 year old can understand. So I'm constantly on that journey of bettering myself when it comes to explaining Bitcoin simply. Yeah. And you've clearly achieved that with respect to your, you know, mainstream news show appearances. That's one of my favorite things that you do. But I'm glad that you're also applying yourself with respect to talking to talking to noobs, talking to people that are just approaching Bitcoin for the first time. We're getting up on time here, but I wanna ask you the same kind of the same, the same question. What do you think's gonna what interests you most at the moment? Or what do you think is gonna interest you with respect to analysis or what's going on in Bitcoin in the coming months? Well, I think, I think corporate adoption of Bitcoin is really interesting right now. I mean, we saw similar scientific come out and basically implement the micro strategy, you know, strategy, Bitcoin treasury strategy. And I think it's very, very early days there. And it's just fascinating to see them basically use the financial system to raise debt or raise capital in any way they can to acquire this harder asset. I mean, it is that Pierre Rochard speculative attack in action right now and corporations just have this access to capital markets that an individual just doesn't have. And so it's extremely exciting. And it's really not just these public companies. You know, any, any business that's like a cash flowing business can find creative ways to incorporate Bitcoin into their organizations. And I think you're going to see that really develop because some of these barriers that have prevented them in the past, like the, you know, the FASB accounting rules, etcetera. You know, they've come down and now we have a proof of concept. I mean, you can't look at micro strategy stock and not say it's been a massive success since they've adopted a bitcoins treasury strategy. And when similar scientific announces it, their stock goes up 25%. I mean, the market likes it, the market really likes it. And now you have, you know, Dylan over in Japan and you know, this is all just getting started. And, and so I think that's something that I'm really excited about kind of looking at how these organizations are going about it. What is their strategy? I think it's, you have these pioneers, it's such a deviation to how these CFOs typically think about treasury management for a corporation. So it is going to take time for these corporations to get their head around it. But the the proof of concepts there. I mean, even just look at Peter McCormick and what he's done. I mean, it's amazing what he's done with that, you know, football, soccer, organization, what do you want to call it? And you know, he's done. It's like what the, what a Bitcoin standard does to an organization. I mean, it's probably even there's some intangible stuff there that that we talk about at individual level, what it does at the corporate level. So that's something that I'm really focused on, really interested in keeping track of. And so when when another similar scientific comes out, I'm all over it. And I just think it's very, very early days there. Yeah, it's so awesome what what Peter's dealing with, with Bedford going from the 9th tier and with the with the stated goal of getting to the Premier League and with the tailwind of Bitcoin like that might actually happen, you know, if that becomes. So cool, that's a documentary. It's unbelievable. And you're right that you're right that I think that we collectively got lulled to sleep a bit on corporate treasury adoption of Bitcoin, that the micro strategy playbook, because micro strategy came out with that they're buying Bitcoin, they're doing this. And it felt like, OK, the next domino is going to happen any month. And it was years with, with nobody else following suit, right? And I still, so I think that collectively we Bitcoiners sort of feel like that's not going to happen because it hasn't been happening in the last few years. But you're right that like the, the proof of concept is there and then the FASB rules the, the thing that Michael Saylor said, this is one of the three biggest developments that could happen for Bitcoin. The FASB rules went through and now it's possible for assembler or any other public company to book profits on their quarterly reports from marking up their Bitcoin. And that becomes a much more attractive reason to adopt the the micro strategy playbook. And now it's happening. So it really is like, you know, we had to wait. We had to wait for the proof of concept to play out, but now it's time to actually get excited about that playbook. I think you're right, Sam. Yeah, I think there's one one other thing is just like the SAB 121 one seconds overturn. If you have a corporation and your existing banking partners can finally just help you out, you don't have to get another bank and go find like the coin basis of the world, whoever it is to to hold have a whole nother custody situation. Your existing banking partner that you do all the business with that you've been with for 1015 years now they can just make it easy to custody on your behalf because institutions are different, right? They're completely different. That's going to open the doors as well. Anything that like reduces the barrier of entry for these CFOs and CEOs is going to be helpful for corporate adoption. So I expect I think that's one thing Saylor said as well. He just, you need to break down the barrier for Wall Street institutions and large financial institutions to be able to custody these assets as well. And I know we always talk about self custody and how it's important, but institutions are kind of different, right? They, they have different regulations that they need to adhere to. And so that's just another thing that I'm looking for that's going to just be, you know, tailwind to all corporate adoption in the future. And I think it's inevitable, like I said earlier. Well, you have both been doing a tremendous job over the years of breaking down barriers with respect to knowledge and education about Bitcoin. So I thank you both. This has been a tremendous conversation. Of course, highly recommend people check out both your channel, Natalie and your Sam, all of your content and your shows. And as we close here, just kick it to you, Sam, any anything else you want to give someone as a handoff and then Natalie, you can close. Yeah, no, you can just follow me on X at at Sam Cala S AM CALLAH. You can find some of my work on the Swan Signal blog as well as Swan Signal Live. I do the podcast and Natalie mentioned the event we're throwing in our hometown. You can check that out at bitcoinhyphenlunch.com. If you're interested in in sending fans from friends or family, or if you live in the area, come check it out. Will there be chairs at the event? There will be chairs. They're literally fixated. You know, it's an auditorium, so there will be chairs. Good to. Know Good to know, Natalie, close this out. Yeah, it's in a nice venue. I hope. I hope to Orange help orange Pelt Missouri. No, I'm just, I'm just really grateful. This work is challenging in the most rewarding way, and I just can't wait to see the next wave. I really think a lot of millennial women are going to on board next. A lot of my peer group who I'm really excited for because they need it. They need it so much and I'm just really inspired by the people I've met in this space. And I can't wait for in the next year, the turnarounds, the big companies, the big, the legendary names that were against Bitcoin who are coming around to our our side because really it doesn't benefit anyone to be against Bitcoin. This is Bitcoin, It helps everyone in every way possible. So I can't wait to see to see how this bull cycle shapes up. We've got a long way to go. That's it. And we're looking forward to enjoying that ride. Well, thank you, Natalie. Thank you, Sam. 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